Erfworld #137 - The Discussion Thread

[Eraniverse]

Sizemore and Wanda will, more than likely, be leading their own stacks (golems and uncroaked, respectively). Maggie doesn't seem much of a fighter.

I see Parson wading into battle with trolls and/or hobogobwins--they're all almost as tall as Parson. Bogroll was also foreshadowed nicely to save Parson's life.

Lastly, I do find it odd that Parson would be leading troops directly. It's already stated that all units in GK automatically receive his warlord leadership bonus (which was two before the spell was completed). So, really, all he'd be doing would be making himself a giant target.

Only reason Caesar's stack got a bonus against the dwagons was because they weren't in the city (and likely Caesar was a very, very high level).

Yea, golem and uncroaked stacks seem to make best use of the casters' bonuses. Plus Parson seems to favor mobile forces. He'd want his casters split for maximum utility.

As for Parson being a target? Big target + Foolamancy = Bait.

I expect a shock strike from him with twolls and Maggie in stack providing scroll support and battle coordination. Then blow the shockmancy reserve and use a foolmancy decoy in the aftermath to trick RRC into poor positioning. Probably getting them to overextend into the Tower after his decoy then cut em off with a concerted strike from the dungeon. Leave Wanda as a door stop, cycling in fresh uncroaked as she delays the outside forces. Parson rallies and wipes out the stranded Tower expedition. RCC forced to regroup and end turn.

[Decius]

Bogroll imitates Parson (again), possibly with foolamancy assistance. Bogroll-as-Parson goes into the tower, with just enough escort to appear believable. A major RCC attack is mounted on the tower, putting everything of significance into it. Parson and the casters launch a counterattack, hitting the weak/wounded in the courtyard, uncroak the casualties, and wipe out the forces in the tower.

That's my theory. It has flaws, in that not all of the scrolls are used in a meaningful manner, but Bogroll does get to save Parson's life.

At some point, the "Regeneration" special that Bogroll has is going to come into play as well.

Why isn't Parson wearing his 3-d glasses? He needs all the information he can get right now. Plus, giving this rant while wearing those glasses would be downright hilarious.

[Altima]

Why isn't Parson wearing his 3-d glasses? He needs all the information he can get right now. Plus, giving this rant while wearing those glasses would be downright hilarious.

My guess? They hurt his eyes. Look at what he sees through those glasses--it's just painful after so long!

[Fjolnir]

I would only wear the glasses just before heading into battle, currently he doesn't need the unit stat info to be told what resources they have besides combat units, I assume he'll put them on when he goes afield though, because then he'll need them

[headhoncho]

For whatever it's worth, I think Hatu is spot-on. Again.

[DevilDan]

For whatever it's worth, I think Hatu is spot-on. Again.

There are two very big differences between the situation Ansom expected and the current situation: the number of troops on each side and the "fork" or "pincer" strategy (Parson is facing no pressure from the tunnels). And we certainly don't know at this point how many troops each side has lost in the taking of the outer walls and Parson's fighting retreat.

[ralphmerridew]

At the beginning, Ansom (with a 12-25:1 numerical advantage) said he had four times what he'd need to take Gobwin knob, so he needed a 3-6:1 advantage. If he's down to a 2:1 numerical advantage, he might find himself coming up short at the end.

[ReccaSquirrel]

I haven't read through all of the posts so this might not have been mentioned yet:

When Parson calculated the odds of Charlie taking Gobwin Knob, it was based on the information Parson knew of at the time. Parson has a lot more resources at his disposal than he was aware of. And, from what I can tell, the only real lost units since that calculation were the Uncroaked air units. Stanley, as much as I hate it, is returning and adds another wrinkle to that calculation.

[quindraco]

I for one am extremely excited to learn about shockmancy; we've seen the other listed magics Wanda has scrolls for used, so we can talk here in the forum about possible uses for them, but none of us know what shockmancy does.

It's similar to croakamancy and deletionism in the same way lookamancy is similar to thinkamancy and foolamancy, respectively; which means I'm ok assuming it can be used to hurt people, but I'm not ok assuming e.g. it just lets you throw lightning bolts.

If it's a "Shock and Awe" reference, it might even e.g. be a spell for carpet-bombing, which would rock.

[ReccaSquirrel]

I'm reflecting on the order of objectives that Parson laid down. I agree with him and his order of importance 100%.

Objectives:
Conversion of Enemy Forces - Includes Charlie and Uncroaking Enemy Units

Division of Enemy Forces - He's done well to demoralize the enemy forces and break the alliance apart. However, the alliance has not broken yet. With the most recent victory, it would take a powerful counter attack to break the alliance apart.

Attrition of Enemy Forces - Attrition of the right forces will create division of the enemy and give them units to convert by uncroaking.

Neutralization of Enemy Assets and Capabilities (Siege) - Destruction of siege means they can't breach the garrison. Clearly, this is very important.

Neutralization of Enemy Assets and Capabilities (Leadership) - Striking Leadership, particularly not Ansom will be good on two fronts. It will reduce the effectiveness of enemy units and it will help achieve Division of Enemy Forces by means of loss in moral. They already lost two leaders, how many of Ansom's allies need to be sacrificed before the allies start to break apart.

Plans Not Using Combat:
Ansom made a deal to Charlie and paid a hefty price. That "price" may be something that can cause Division of Forces. All it takes is a the cost of a Thinkagram or a loud shout.

Plans Using Combat:
Strategic strike on enemy leaders, particular the leaders in charge of siege units. Striking siege units would be seen by the enemy as a logical attack and thus not seen as a division tactic.

Attacking Charlie is a very risky tactic but would be extremely useful if it can be achieved. Charlie's aid has been paramount in Ansom's success. Eliminating them would have an extremely demoralizing effect on the outcome of the battle. I'm not sure how this could be achieved.

Attacking and eliminating as many siege units as possible is another extremely vital tactic. It is also the most obvious one.

Regarding the Enemy's Strength/Weakness:
Charlie and Ansom are giving the Alliance Air Superiority. However, the tunnel forces of the alliance were wiped out. Flank attacks could be available. As the enemy took the outer walls and are at the garrison, the siege units may be located at the enemy's flank. A full force flank attack might very well both exploit the enemy's weakness, destroy critical enemy resources, and demoralize (and thus create division) of the enemy forces. The Foolamancy spell could be all that is needed to successfully create a flank attack situation.

One final thought:
Imagine the following senario. Parson flanks the enemy and causes serious damage to siege capabilities. The units are uncroaked but instead of joining inside the garrison, the remain outside of the main walls. The enemy alliance has forces on either side of them AND have depleted their siege capabilities significantly/entirely. Would you rather fight your way out or fight your way in? This would definitely create a situation of division.

[multilis]

Maggie might be able to do some trick with Thinkomancy to make enemy do wrong orders, also has been foreshadowed as "scary" magic field.

One way to win would be to convince Ansom that if Stanley is defeated, he loses as well because Charlie wins everything. (Make Charlie the bigger threat/more hated than Stanley, perhaps Hippymancy can help)

[dr pepper]

I haven't read through all of the posts so this might not have been mentioned yet:

When Parson calculated the odds of Charlie taking Gobwin Knob, it was based on the information Parson knew of at the time. Parson has a lot more resources at his disposal than he was aware of.

Good call! Wanda's recalcitrance might just turn out to be key to sandbagging Charlie.

[Loyal2NES]

I truly hope that that is not the case.



Parson did use "WTB" once, presumably instead of "WTF."

I'm pretty sure some Orlies got off a "WTF" shortly before getting roasted. I apologize that I don't have the link.

Also... is that Webinar and his girl in the last panel? Did they get resurrected?

[dr pepper]

Perhaps Shockamancy includes Power Word Static, which disrupts magical communications. That would really put a crimp in Charlie's effectiveness.

[Winged One]

also has been foreshadowed as "scary" magic field.

I think Parson meant that he felt literal horror at the prospect of his thoughts not being his own. They'd have tried your idea by now if it was possible, though; Parson's already thought of false orders, and I can't think of any reason that Maggie wouldn't tell Parson that she could make Ansom think Stanley was dead if she could(double negative intentional).

[Bilgore]

Parson seems very stressed/angry.

Almost ruthless, wouldn't you say? ;)

[DevilDan]

At the beginning, Ansom (with a 12-25:1 numerical advantage) said he had four times what he'd need to take Gobwin knob, so he needed a 3-6:1 advantage. If he's down to a 2:1 numerical advantage, he might find himself coming up short at the end.

As an approximation; but that was a calculation based on having to face Stanley, the Arkenhammer, and a lot of dwagons. It was part of a presumably rough/rounded/conservative estimate that included a prong-attack and starting off from outside the outer walls.

And, of course, it didn't include having to face the ultimate warlord.

[quindraco]

Perhaps Shockamancy includes Power Word Static, which disrupts magical communications. That would really put a crimp in Charlie's effectiveness.

I'm at least 50% expecting it to actually employ surprise as a weapon. Wouldn't that be a shocking development?

[Lombard]

Hard to see why Parson is coming from with that speech. He killed a bunch of siege. Then he lost a bunch of dragons. He killed a bunch of troops in the tunnels. Then he lost the walls (the major defense of almost any fortress) without, as far as I can tell, taking out any enemy units. Every time he's won something big, he's shortly after lost something big. That only works when the odds are in your favor.

[Xiander]

Hard to see why Parson is coming from with that speech. He killed a bunch of siege. Then he lost a bunch of dragons. He killed a bunch of troops in the tunnels. Then he lost the walls (the major defense of almost any fortress) without, as far as I can tell, taking out any enemy units. Every time he's won something big, he's shortly after lost something big. That only works when the odds are in your favor.

Let me put it like this: Parson is saying that he is doing his best but that he certainly cannot win if his own allies refuse to help him.

He is not saying that he is doing good, or that all his plans have been working satisfactory, but he does say that he has done something and that he can do more.
He is also saying that he thinks he is able to win, but only with full support from his casters.

Does that clear up where parson is comming from?

[SteveD]

Er, with the story planned out in advance, it was predictable that reactions (from both other characters and readers) would be to doubt Parson after he suffered a series of reverses.

True, but that isn't to say that parts can't be re-written on the fly from reader feedback. For example; a while back people were trying to figure out exactly how many Ansom had lost in the tunnels. Then a few strips later we get told exactly how much Ansom lost in the tunnels. Another coincidence of storytelling, or a convenience of storytelling? We know the writers review these forums.

[Lombard]

Let me put it like this: Parson is saying that he is doing his best but that he certainly cannot win if his own allies refuse to help him.

He is not saying that he is doing good, or that all his plans have been working satisfactory, but he does say that he has done something and that he can do more.
He is also saying that he thinks he is able to win, but only with full support from his casters.

Does that clear up where parson is comming from?

My take on it was that Parson is trying to explain why he's been doing a good job in the grand scheme of things...all things considered.. etc. But really, he hasn't, because Ansom makes Parson pay dearly for every gambit that Parson tries. My impression was that Parson wouldn't have been willing to trade those dragons for the siege if he knew he'd lose the dragons. So that's a whole mini-arc of the strip that GK would have been better off never having been attempted. Now Parson's got all these undead but he's lost the walls! Why? Because he tried something else he shouldn't have tried, which was putting those undead out these as bait for a warlord who seems invincible to them, or anything else for that matter. Ansom can still turn all those undead to dust the next move... people in this thread are talking about how the odds have improved but I don't see it considering that Ansom looked like he was going to take out all 3000-odd undead by himself, and oh by the way he's still got an army with him. So truly then, what has Parson's positive effect been other than to tease the readers into thinking he might gain some edge through strategy- he made a bad trade of dragons for seige and he's gained himself some units which are essentially worthless. It's been one long saga of fail... heck, Stanley couldn't even make an escape. Nope, sorry, didn't you know, they have uber-bats, lol.

But yeah. To summarize. Parson: trying to portray himself in this strip as a good warlord. The reality: he thinks he's a good warlord, despite all evidence to the contrary. I guess it makes the strip kind of interesting in that it's unique. Instead of being a strip about some conflict hanging by a thread, which I suppose would be standard or typical, it's a strip about someone getting pwned.

[RinceBrush]

Just thinking...does Ansom need to take just the garrison in order to conquer GK or the whole city??

Because Parson has just a step from where he is an enormous set of convoluted tunnels that seriosly reduce the usefulness of the numerical superiority of the RCC and totally nullify the Air Superiority given by the alliance with Charlie (maybe even rendering the Archons almost useless, how strong are they on the ground?). A costly series of attemps to drive Parson's forces out of those tunnels (where al kinds of shockamancy spells would be highly effective, given the hostile environment and the fact that the RCC was aleady crushed there) would be the kind of thing that could divide RCCs leaders.

Plus, once being allied with Charlie is almost useless I think Ansom would start reconsidering his alliance with him.

To al this, add hit-and-run attacks on the surface with the Gölems and Stanley returning and the RCC might be in a kind of dead, annoying end.


PS: Because he didin't collapse ALL the tunnels, did he?? That would be an enormously bad move.

[Lamech]

My take on it was that Parson is trying to explain why he's been doing a good job in the grand scheme of things...all things considered.. etc. But really, he hasn't, because Ansom makes Parson pay dearly for every gambit that Parson tries. My impression was that Parson wouldn't have been willing to trade those dragons for the siege if he knew he'd lose the dragons. So that's a whole mini-arc of the strip that GK would have been better off never having been attempted. Now Parson's got all these undead but he's lost the walls! Why? Because he tried something else he shouldn't have tried, which was putting those undead out these as bait for a warlord who seems invincible to them, or anything else for that matter. Ansom can still turn all those undead to dust the next move... people in this thread are talking about how the odds have improved but I don't see it considering that Ansom looked like he was going to take out all 3000-odd undead by himself, and oh by the way he's still got an army with him. So truly then, what has Parson's positive effect been other than to tease the readers into thinking he might gain some edge through strategy- he made a bad trade of dragons for seige and he's gained himself some units which are essentially worthless. It's been one long saga of fail... heck, Stanley couldn't even make an escape. Nope, sorry, didn't you know, they have uber-bats, lol.

Dwagons: This was a great move on Parson's part, and Ansom then got really, really lucky. First off Jillian had no more than a 50% chance of discovering the dwagons. Then she would have moved off if not for the Archons going against the rules. Finally, after all that Parson would have gotten the Arkenpliers, and killed Ansom were it not for Stanley's interference. And with those extra dwagons at base he probably could have flown a warlord out and hit the siege anyway! Stanley, and bad luck screwed him there, but I think that when the odds are supposed to be impossible and you lose 'cause of bad luck your doing something right.

Undead: Parson killed enough forces to take GK, and then some. Then that fighting retreat trick allowed him to use those undead to get some more free kills. If Ansom had say twice the needed force, Parson would have won. Again if your enemy started out with quadruple the needed forces, and is down to less than triple something clearly went right.

Ansom croaking undead: He wasn't able to with out Charlie's help, so using them as bait almost got Parson a new fancy warlord AND the arkenpliers. Plus had say the Arkenpliers landed on the wall and Ansom fallen really far, he could have died. There is a very good chance that Ansom got lucky. And no Ansom can't croak all of the undead, since he has to put up with archers they'll still kill him if he tries too much.

Look Parson has been doing a great job, in the dougnut he came close, but got unlucky and screwed by Stanley. In the tunnels and right now he has killed more forces than Ansom should have needed. Parson has been doing a good job, just not good enough for the HUGE odds against him.

[FoE]

Parson has done as best as he can under the circumstances. He's managed to turn certain defeat into the slimmest hope for victory. The problem with you guys is that you see failure as an immediate reflection on Parson's ability to command, ignoring all the other factors that have come into play.

1) Parson was at a disadvantage from the get-go, being completely unfamiliar with the basic rules of Erfworld.

2) Parson's plan to trap Ansom would have worked had Wanda's spell worked as advertised. But victory might have still been possible if Stanley hadn't lost his temper and recalled all his dwagons back to Gobwin Knob; Parson could have attacked the following turn and croaked Jillian, Vinnie and Ansom.

3) Had Charlie not intervened, since Wanda would have croaked Ansom had it not been for the Archons. And yeah, he played into Charlie's hands, but he had no choice: he had an opportunity to take out Ansom, and he had to take it. At least he was aware that Charlie would probably turn on him.

[Capt'n Ironbrow]

My take on it was that Parson is trying to explain why he's been doing a good job in the grand scheme of things...all things considered.. etc. But really, he hasn't, because Ansom makes Parson pay dearly for every gambit that Parson tries. My impression was that Parson wouldn't have been willing to trade those dragons for the siege if he knew he'd lose the dragons. So that's a whole mini-arc of the strip that GK would have been better off never having been attempted. Now Parson's got all these undead but he's lost the walls! Why? Because he tried something else he shouldn't have tried, which was putting those undead out these as bait for a warlord who seems invincible to them, or anything else for that matter. Ansom can still turn all those undead to dust the next move... people in this thread are talking about how the odds have improved but I don't see it considering that Ansom looked like he was going to take out all 3000-odd undead by himself, and oh by the way he's still got an army with him. So truly then, what has Parson's positive effect been other than to tease the readers into thinking he might gain some edge through strategy- he made a bad trade of dragons for seige and he's gained himself some units which are essentially worthless. It's been one long saga of fail... heck, Stanley couldn't even make an escape. Nope, sorry, didn't you know, they have uber-bats, lol.

But yeah. To summarize. Parson: trying to portray himself in this strip as a good warlord. The reality: he thinks he's a good warlord, despite all evidence to the contrary. I guess it makes the strip kind of interesting in that it's unique. Instead of being a strip about some conflict hanging by a thread, which I suppose would be standard or typical, it's a strip about someone getting pwned.

hmm... Stanley throwing the towel after the failure of the dwagon donut was a major setback for Gobwin Knob. it's true that a second raid on the siege would be delayed for another turn to get in fresh (well, ehm, not really so fresh) warlords (if they still wanted to repeat the tactic), but things could have been very different had Stanley remained at Knob with the dwagons. Ansom would still have attacked through the tunnels the way he did because of the siege equipment lost and Ansoms dusting of uncroacked would have been more easily stopped. Also, the twenty or-so Dwagons left could have been a greater deterrent to Charlie sending his Archons... heh, Parson wouldn't have even called Charlie and there'd be no change of coalition organisation at all!
Contacting Charlie was very risky, it has been both beneficial and counter-productive. Stanley could escape the ambush and head back to GK, but the Archons also saved Ansom's boop in the nick of time.

Parson's plans so far have been excellent, but, as he said so himself, you can never be sure about the enemy's reaction to your plans, just as he can't be sure about your reaction to his own schemes.

Parson has been smart, Ansom has been lucky... those luckamancy charm breakfast cereals... could that be Chekov's Gun? grandly introduced, yet it's effects have, as yet, not been seen.

[MalikT]

Parson has been smart, Ansom has been lucky... those luckamancy charm breakfast cereals... could that be Chekov's Gun? grandly introduced, yet it's effects have, as yet, not been seen.

Has anyone ever thought that luckamancy charms were just breakfast.
If I'm not mistaken there is a cereal brand called lucky charms.

[Whispri]

But Charlie was involved, and Ansom clearly considered using Charlie as a reserve before he began his assault. Indeed, given that he fought Wanda in the Airspace zone rather than the Outer Wall zone, it's possible that was his plan all along.

Again, I'm not trying to say that Parson is a failure as a warlord. I like the way Parson has been presented. I just find it odd that Parson gets a great speech about how strategy works even as that speech only applies to him. Ansom gets to do everything Parson says is unrealistic.

For all that Parson has tried, the situation we see basically what Ansom said it would be back in his initial strategy meeting. If Parson had forced Ansom to delay his attack, or to find a different way to assault GK the story would have been much more interesting and believable - even if Ansom was still able to breach GK in the end.

-H

I rather doubt that Ansom was planning to accept an 'Outrageous' bargain. And there's no telling what Parson helped Charlie into blackmailing out of Ansom. There could even be a 'When the going gets tough, the Archons hang back and eat popcorn' clause.

Yeah well, Parson has been having appalling luck and if he hadn't attracted the attention of the swarm, Wanda would have left to help Stanley and there wouldn't have been any hope of holding that wall.

The thing is, Ansom is trying to break into a Walled City, which means he has to go under, through or over the Wall. His tunnel forces were annihilated, his fliers sent on a wild Stanley chase. The only option left then is to break down the wall, which would have failed if not for Charlie. And quite frankly reducing Ansom to hiding behind an Archon's Skirt could well be regarded as quite an achievement.

The real problem is that the RCC can take the pain and keep on rolling, Ansom's plot shield aside, that's why they're dangerous. They started off with four times the numbers they needed to take the City. Bad news like that doesn't go away easily.

If Wanda was healed, dressed smartly, and not crushed under the weight of her own fatalism, I'd buy that. It's what she did to Summon Parson and distract Stanley so Parson could do the Dragon Donut of Doom. Here, she's probably on her last hitpoints, scuffed, and hopelessly emo. Instead, I imagine she underestimated how little Parson knew about Erfworld mechanics. OR, she thought he was playing her.

It is possible that her lack of hope is welling to the surface, but whether she's diverted his attention or she just needed a pep talk, she has good enough reason for her words.

[Charlicat]

When Parson calculated the odds of Charlie taking Gobwin Knob, it was based on the information Parson knew of at the time. Parson has a lot more resources at his disposal than he was aware of.

Also, those were the odds of Charlie taking the tower. Charlie's Archons are now allied with the RCC, and thus subject to Ansom's orders...not Charlie's...regarding battle deployment and in-turn objectives. They're still a scary bunch which I'm hoping Ansom paid dearly for. I'm just saying there is also a slim possiblity that they will not be utilized quite as effectively as if Charlie were singularly calling the shots.

In the end, though, still quite a mountain to climb if Parson wants to save his boop.

[Trixie]

Notice how Wanda subtly deflected Parson's question about Duty -- there's nothing in the rules (at least as they were described to us) that would make whether it's hopeless or not relevant... she's simply not allowed to conceal important information like that. In other words, Parson pretty clearly caught her violating Duty, and she brought up his failures because she knew it would distract him from that decidedly uncomfortable question.

You know... until you mentioned that, I thought she suffered 3D6 INT damage beforehand. But, if we also count her deflection when Stanley asked the same thing... There might be more than she tells going behind the scenes

And, seriously, how long will she stutter? It's gotten increasingly irritating in the last few strips.