Erfworld #137 - The Discussion Thread

[teratorn]

Winning a 59% die roll isn't a lot of luck. It's likely.

It's like playing Russian roulette with three empty and two full chambers.

[headhoncho]

Anyway, aren't you guys taking this luck thing a little far? We barely know any of the actual combat rules of Erfworld, let alone how luckmancy actually works.

And this is exactly the problem. If a writer wants to have a world where everything works in a funky way, you either have to exposit and explain some of the funkiness, or you have to rely on a ton of suspension of disbelief. When you rely too much on suspension of disbelief for too long, when things just don't seem to make sense, it taxes the reader and eventually loses the reader.

You can't just say trust me. That doesn't work except for the absolutely most rabid and loyal fans. The average reader is likely to just give up in disgust.

[Cpt. Sqweky]

You do realize that there's a third option, right? Assuming that the reader is smart enough to figure stuff out on his or her own without having to be led by the hand. You know, the way most good stories are told. (Or at least before Hollywood started assuming that everyone was as stupid as they were.) This may be a bit annoying for those too impatient to either try and figure it out on their own or just wait and see. But those people are losers anyway. Erm, I mean... If they can't wait, it's their loss and no one else's.

[Hatu]

You do realize that there's a third option, right? Assuming that the reader is smart enough to figure stuff out on his or her own without having to be led by the hand. You know, the way most good stories are told. (Or at least before Hollywood started assuming that everyone was as stupid as they were.) This may be a bit annoying for those too impatient to either try and figure it out on their own or just wait and see. But those people are losers anyway. Erm, I mean... If they can't wait, it's their loss and no one else's.

In that case it would behoove Erfworld if the game mechanics were more consistent. At this point I have no idea how stack combat mechanics work, I'm fuzzy on movement, and the relative values of the various forces involved in a battle seem fluid at best.

I need some guidelines to work with if I must work all this out for myself. What I've seen is a lot of talk about how bad a situation is followed by that situation being swiftly and effortlessly resolved. Rules, when are mentioned, are honored mainly in the breach.

-H

[quindraco]

And this is exactly the problem. If a writer wants to have a world where everything works in a funky way, you either have to exposit and explain some of the funkiness, or you have to rely on a ton of suspension of disbelief. When you rely too much on suspension of disbelief for too long, when things just don't seem to make sense, it taxes the reader and eventually loses the reader.

You can't just say trust me. That doesn't work except for the absolutely most rabid and loyal fans. The average reader is likely to just give up in disgust.

Tolkien never explained Gandalf.

I agree with you in principle, but for reasons I suspect differ from yours. ;) I flatly disagree that in general, a writer ALWAYS has to explain his funkiness. I think Gandalf had a couple ways to justify his mysteriousness. I agree that anything we see Parson do, in particular, absolutely must be explained to us, just like, to stick with my wizard example, by the time we saw him use his magic, Luke Skywalker's magic was fairly well explained.

For the case at hand - Erfworld - so long as we know everything Parson knows, I'm happy. The confusion we have is confusion he has, so it's sort of inherently realistic confusion. What I wouldn't mind is more klogs, which are Erf's version of internal monologues for Parson.

[headhoncho]

You do realize that there's a third option, right? Assuming that the reader is smart enough to figure stuff out on his or her own without having to be led by the hand. You know, the way most good stories are told. (Or at least before Hollywood started assuming that everyone was as stupid as they were.) This may be a bit annoying for those too impatient to either try and figure it out on their own or just wait and see. But those people are losers anyway. Erm, I mean... If they can't wait, it's their loss and no one else's.

That's a major cop-out, I'm afraid, especially when a number of the critics have expressed themselves clearly and calmly. I would also note that show, not tell, only works when you're actually showing, and when the showing actually makes sense and is consistent.

Sorry my criticism of your beloved strip has caused you such upset that it has apparently led you to insult broad categories of people.

[SteveMB]

As for the comic itself... Parson and his troops are in the dungeon. The Coalition is standing in the Courtyard.

Huh? From the last panel, they're standing between the two walls -- they still need to breach the inner wall to reach the courtyard section of the garrison.

[teratorn]

That's a major cop-out, I'm afraid, especially when a number of the critics have expressed themselves clearly and calmly.

It's mostly becoming a sort of spam. All this complaining about Parson being inept and that the authors are doing a bad job is boring. I understand you're disappointed with the strip, I'm not.

Strangely enough it's clearly on topic for this particular strip, but it has been going for so long I can't keep interested in the discussion. This kind of arguing has been going since the donut of doom. I'm tired of it.

[fendrin]

It's mostly becoming a sort of spam. All this complaining about Parson being inept and that the authors are doing a bad job is boring. I understand you're disappointed with the strip, I'm not.

Strangely enough it's clearly on topic for this particular strip, but it has been going for so long I can't keep interested in the discussion. This kind of arguing has been going since the donut of doom. I'm tired of it.

You know, I can't help but feel that most of the people complaining about Parson's failures would be much less successful if they were in his shoes.

I think we as a culture are too used to our heroes winning all the time. TV shows are serialized with the protagonist(s) winning at the end of almost every episode. Movies almost always end with the protagonist winning, even if there is some little bit at the end paving the way for a sequel. 'Genius' heroes win through dumb luck and the antagonists are almost always flat caricatures.

Erfworld is much better than that, but when people are used to drivel, quality becomes unpalatable.

[Aquillion]

You can't just say trust me. That doesn't work except for the absolutely most rabid and loyal fans. The average reader is likely to just give up in disgust.

Are you lumping everyone who disagrees with you on this into "the most rabid and loyal fans?"

[headhoncho]

You know, I can't help but feel that most of the people complaining about Parson's failures would be much less successful if they were in his shoes.

Who says they'd be doing better? I think most of us agree that Parson is a great wargamer and WANT him to be doing better.

This is not a "Parson is so stupid" theme. This is a "Parson is getting hosed" theme.

Are you lumping everyone who disagrees with you on this into "the most rabid and loyal fans?"

Nope. Just the ones who seem offended that anyone could possibly take issue with this obviously perfect, incredibly consistent and wholly believable plot. The ones who insist there are no holes, and that persist in taking "trust me" time after time after time at face value while being incredulous that anyone else could possibly think differently, and believe that there's some kind of magic wand that will be waved to make all of the ongoing inconsistencies and dissatisfactions completely disappear.

OK, maybe the threshold's slightly lower than that, but that's the general mindset I'm talking about.

[TamLin]

Two thoughts:

1. Personally, I couldn't care less about how the rules work or whether they're followed. I'm hard-pressed to come up with a less interesting element of the comic to discuss. Just my two cents.

2. If any of Parson's plans had worked 100%, the comic would probably be over by now.

[MattR]

I feel the writers have been spot on when it comes to not revealing too much at once about the world, particularly when their protagonist is supposed to be learning things as he goes along.

Sidetracking to explain every rule would cause problems with pacing and the plot would lose momentum (the fact that new strips are posted slowly/infrequently is irrelevant since i believe the intentions of the writer and artist are that the whole story should be experienced in a much shorter period of time then we're accustomed to.)

It might help people take criticisms more seriously if they were outlined in more detail. Get to the specifics of what you don't like, rather then vaguely worded sweeping statements.

You can't divorce luck from combat engagements, this holds true whether its in the real world, tabletop games, rts games or erfworld. People provide that element of chance through freewill and their choices. In erfworld the majority of this comes from the decisions made by the chief warlord, warlords and casters.

[teratorn]

2. If any of Parson's plans had worked 100%, the comic would probably be over by now.

That was my take at the donut of doom: there were many different paths Jillian could take, and in most she would not find the dwagons. In those stories Parson took out the siege and won easily. End of story. We're just following the one where she took the other path and the thing kept going. Same thing in this last arc, this was a scenario where Parson could have won. I'd rather think, «ok this could have finished here, but what if Ansom got lucky, could Parson still pull something else?».

Some people don't like it, no problem there, I just wish they wouldn't be nagging all the time with this being a flaw of the story and bad writing. It's one of the things which appeals to people like me and it bothers me the condescending tone of some posters implying that if I were a reasonable person with good taste I should «just give up in disgust.» It's been happening since day one and after 137 strips it's getting old.

[SteveD]

Clearly you have no taste, tera. :P

Two thoughts:

1. Personally, I couldn't care less about how the rules work or whether they're followed. I'm hard-pressed to come up with a less interesting element of the comic to discuss. Just my two cents.

2. If any of Parson's plans had worked 100%, the comic would probably be over by now.

QFT.

Knowing every single unit stat and combat mechanic wouldn't make for a more interesting story. Unfortunately, given its posted on this particular site its what the audience craves.

[SteveMB]

Knowing every single unit stat and combat mechanic wouldn't make for a more interesting story. Unfortunately, given its posted on this particular site its what the audience craves.

It'd be nice (and might happen eventually as the universe gets more developed), but isn't all that important as long as everything is internally consistent. (Not knowing all the rules makes it harder to tell whether it is internally consistent, hence some of the arguments that have cropped up lately. I just don't see any of the alleged problems, once the complications of action involving the side whose turn it is (Ansom), the side who owns the city and therefore doesn't need to expend Move to shift units within it (Parson), and the side that is neither of the above (Charlie) are sorted out.)

[teratorn]

Knowing every single unit stat and combat mechanic wouldn't make for a more interesting story.

It makes sense for the first of a series of stories to show the rules as they are needed. It's easier for us to learn them if something failed spectacularly or some kind of exploit arrived because of them. But I get a little frustrated about not knowing the stats. I'd like to be able to anticipate the outcome of a fight between a dwagon and an archon. Heck, I'd like to know if Bogroll is a match for one of those cloth golems.

[SteveD]

I get that too, but it seems lately that the more details the writers give the fans the more silly little things the fans find to complain about. I guess thats gaming geeks for you.

[RinceBrush]

Good God people, it's a webcomic xDDDDD, it's something some guys are doing for pure entertainment and it's not meant to be some kind of masterwork of literature. I'm personally not a hardcore fan of this comic, but it's entertaining, the art is good and the comedy part is ok, so once in a while I drop by and read it. What I mean is those of you who were expecting Shakespeare either dedicate your time to read real, good literature that can satisfy your oh-so-developed tastes or demonstrate your profound knowledge of what's good literature by writing something and publishing it instead of playing the critic whose only pleasure in this life is ranting about how bad is other's people work.

Yes, the comic has failures, yes, it has holes and not everything is perfectly explained within a consistent set of game rules, thus giving the authors some freedom to take the story where they want. So what??

Seriously, some people in this forum are just one step away from your everyday Twoll xD.

[headhoncho]

It might help people take criticisms more seriously if they were outlined in more detail. Get to the specifics of what you don't like, rather then vaguely worded sweeping statements.

They've been outlined ad nauseum in past commentary threads, and I'm well below the point where I would have even the slightest interest in dredging them back up (and I imagine most people, whether critics or supporters, would be happy about that).

Some people don't like it, no problem there, I just wish they wouldn't be nagging all the time with this being a flaw of the story and bad writing. It's one of the things which appeals to people like me and it bothers me the condescending tone of some posters implying that if I were a reasonable person with good taste I should «just give up in disgust.» It's been happening since day one and after 137 strips it's getting old.

I'm not at all saying anyone else SHOULD feel like this; I am merely expressing my view that *I* feel like this. It's a relevant point that a number of previously well-satisfied readers are becoming less so (some significantly), and if I were the authors, I'd want to know that. Personally, I find feedback on my own endeavors to be extremely helpful, and I don't typically find it threatening or a negative thing.

If you care enough to go back (and I can't imagine you do), there was a long stretch of time when I had nothing but effusive praise for this strip. I am not typically an overly negative person. It's probably a measure of how much I love this strip and its concept that explains why I'm so disappointed and frustrated right now.

Good God people, it's a webcomic xDDDDD, it's something some guys are doing for pure entertainment and it's not meant to be some kind of masterwork of literature...
Yes, the comic has failures, yes, it has holes and not everything is perfectly explained within a consistent set of game rules, thus giving the authors some freedom to take the story where they want. So what??
Seriously, some people in this forum are just one step away from your everyday Twoll xD.

It's being published and I wish the authors tremendous success with it, I hope they make a ton of money, because they deserve it for all the hard work they've put into this novel idea.

As for the rest of your rant, if you want to think people like me are trolls, feel free. You'd be completely wrong, but feel free.

Hint: hyperbole doesn't suit most arguments well. And I'm sorry if this disappoints you, but I'm not planning on going anywhere.

[grumbleboom]

Huh? From the last panel, they're standing between the two walls -- they still need to breach the inner wall to reach the courtyard section of the garrison.

You are correct of course, but then the area where the fighting retreat occured would be considered part of the Outer Walls. The parade ground (the area we are discussing) is either Outer Walls or Courtyard. I'm going with the assumption that it is the Courtyard and not an extension of the Outer Wall zone. Sorry for not making myself clearer on that one.

[DevilDan]

Given their track record, I'm perfectly happy to trust the creators and their judgment on when to reveal more rules and mechanics as the story progresses. I know I'd rather have them working on the story than on making up character sheets and appendices and charts, entertaining as those would be just by themselves.

And if the creators feel that they need to adjust the story then they can do so more easily if they haven't given us their rules wholesale: I'd rather they tell their story; the fewer constraints on them, the better.

(It just occurred to me that to really cheese off the rules lawyer here, the writer could eventually take a page (the first page, really) from OOTS and show a jump to a new edition of the rules in another chapter of the story. Wit the mature approach of Erfworld, that would really be interesting to observe.)

[Lamech]

Given their track record, I'm perfectly happy to trust the creators and their judgment on when to reveal more rules and mechanics as the story progresses. I know I'd rather have them working on the story than on making up character sheets and appendices and charts, entertaining as those would be just by themselves.

And if the creators feel that they need to adjust the story then they can do so more easily if they haven't given us their rules wholesale: I'd rather they tell their story; the fewer constraints on them, the better.

(It just occurred to me that to really cheese off the rules lawyer here, the writer could eventually take a page (the first page, really) from OOTS and show a jump to a new edition of the rules in another chapter of the story. Wit the mature approach of Erfworld, that would really be interesting to observe.)

I think that having a good list of "rules" is a good idea. I would also have descriptions each unit's/unit-type's/person's ablities, both to keep internal consistancy AND help foreshadow. Ditto for what each school of magic can do. But I don't think it would be helpful to nail everything down... or stat everyone up.

The above is just what I think I would do; I have no idea what Rob has done, but I think that he has done a good job, with both the foreshadowing, and the consistancy.

[DevilDan]

I think that having a good list of "rules" is a good idea. I would also have descriptions each unit's/unit-type's/person's ablities, both to keep internal consistancy AND help foreshadow. Ditto for what each school of magic can do. But I don't think it would be helpful to nail everything down... or stat everyone up.

The above is just what I think I would do; I have no idea what Rob has done, but I think that he has done a good job, with both the foreshadowing, and the consistancy.

Rob claims to have written out the rules extensively beforehand. They are useful for him to have; I don't feel like I need to know them in advance and am happy to learn them as the story progresses. As you say, he seems to be doing all right with consistency and using foreshadowing and arcs effectively.

[Lamech]

Oh yeah, I don't feel the need to know the rules, and definitly not the stats of units in advance.

[RinceBrush]

It's being published and I wish the authors tremendous success with it, I hope they make a ton of money, because they deserve it for all the hard work they've put into this novel idea.

As for the rest of your rant, if you want to think people like me are trolls, feel free. You'd be completely wrong, but feel free.

Hint: hyperbole doesn't suit most arguments well. And I'm sorry if this disappoints you, but I'm not planning on going anywhere.

Whatever, I'm not interested in arguing here, just to make clear my point:

1) It would be quite sad to wish this project to crash. I'm glad you have good wishes for the authors, though :D

2) I didn't say that people like you are trolling. Anyway, the reasons because someone takes the time to regularly write in the forum of a webcomic he doesn't like (I assume that when you say that given the path the comic is taking "the average reader is likely to just give up in disgust" that you, who I suppose are an average reader, don't quite like it.) are to me somewhat limited, and I can understand none of them.

3) You can repeat it with as much new convoluted and pretentious exppressions as you like, but the fact is that your point was made long ago, and the people likely to be convinced with your arguments already are, so it's pointless to keep dwelling on it.

I tried to keep to the facts as much as I could, hope you don't find it too hyperbolic :P.

[headhoncho]

Whatever, I'm not interested in arguing here,

Uh-huh. Right.

This is a discussion forum. I hear that's what we do here, discuss things. And although it's the default tendency for any fan-forum, I also don't think an "amen chorus" is very helpful to anyone, since all that does is reinforce existing tendencies and habits that might otherwise be capable of improvement.

Obviously, YMMV.

[dr pepper]

I think RinceBrush is saying that you have been playing to your own amen chorus.

[headhoncho]

I think RinceBrush is saying that you have been playing to your own amen chorus.

It's not just me, and I've tried not to just rehash old stuff. There's usually enough new stuff to talk about when a new strip's posted.

Of course, some of the themes and parameters of the discussion will be familiar, but that's to be expected in a serial.

Good to see you around, by the way.

[Lolindir]

I personally like that we don´t know everything. It keeps the element of surprise intact, we know what Parson knows (for the majority of the time) so we can think along, plus a story need a build up.

Having an actual game based of this comic would be awesome, but not before this project is finished. =)