Erfworld #137 - The Discussion Thread

[fendrin]

Wanda's "very hard way" comment at the time and Jillian's later "You went too far" declaration give me the impression that this was a new escalation.

The 'very hard way' could refer to anything extreme (such as the use of magic instead of just whips and such); Jillian's reaction was predicated not by the spell, but by the spell being revealed to her.

Of course I haven't given up on the extremely unlikely but possible idea that Wanda never cast a mind-control spell on Jillian. I'm stubborn like that.

[Anon-a-mouse]

Some people seem not to understand the point of Parson's speech. A strategy does not need to guarantee victory to qualify as 'perfect'. A perfect strategy is simply whatever strategy gives the greatest chance of success.
If there are three possible options one of which gives a 1% chance of success, another of which gives a 3% chance of success and another which gives a 7% chance of success, a perfect strategist is anyone who would, given sufficient information, select the 7% option.
In fact in some games (like the 'coin game' if you get the wrong turn) a perfect strategist would lose.

When Parson joined up, Stanley was almost certain to be defeated. If Parson's strategy with the dragons had worked Ansom could not have assaulted the walls. He would have had to either attack the tunnels (and we saw how that worked out) or attack from the air against all the dragons. A stalemate would have been the most likely outcome. You can only judge the quality of a decision by the information available when the decision was made. The possibilty of forcing a stalemate when defeat was the most likely outcome was the right choice.

Parson's plan to defend the walls only failed when Ansom enlisted Charlie's help at such a great cost that Ansom hesitated to sign even when his life depended on it.

Parson has come close to victory against impossible odds twice. To suggest that he isn't the perfect warlord because he hasn't come up with strategy which guarantees victory means that either you don't understand the concept of 'perfect strategy', or that you are under the impression that there is some option available to Parson which would guarantee victory.

[Lamech]

I suppose it could be taken that way, but I would say not.
The kvetching has been going on a long time. I don't think it's really gotten significantly worse enough recently to push Rob to add a previously unplanned page.

That and the way this page fits perfectly with flow of the story lead me to believe that this was part of the originally planned comic.

I do believe we have one theory that needs considering. Rob is pyschic and predicted the bashing, so planned to have this fit into the flow of the story.

[DevilDan]

Some people seem not to understand the point of Parson's speech. A strategy does not need to guarantee victory to qualify as 'perfect'. A perfect strategy is simply whatever strategy gives the greatest chance of success.

That would make it an optimal strategy, which just goes to underscore two things: 1) there ain't no such animal as a "perfect" anything, and 2) no plan survives the first contact with the enemy.

[koima]

I do believe we have one theory that needs considering. Rob is pyschic and predicted the bashing, so planned to have this fit into the flow of the story.

I wouldn't doubt it, he has so many projects and has been at it so long that predicting disgruntled fans would be easy.

[headhoncho]

Wanda's "very hard way" comment at the time and Jillian's later "You went too far" declaration give me the impression that this was a new escalation.

That's my impression as well. New strip will be posted any time now, I bet. Can't wait!

I wouldn't doubt it, he has so many projects and has been at it so long that predicting disgruntled fans would be easy.

Based on what I've perceived, I would bet that Rob is a lot less sensitive and a lot more receptive to feedback (even critical feedback, so long as it's constructive) than some of his fans.

[HandofShadows]

Wanda's "very hard way" comment at the time and Jillian's later "You went too far" declaration give me the impression that this was a new escalation.

A very good observation (One that I made as well). It really sounds as if Wanda pushed Jillian out of her "safe zone" by controling her with the spell. Wanda taking contol in the dungeon is part of the game, but not outside it. Even if Jillian did like it, it was to far for her to go.

[Doomduckie]

A very good observation (One that I made as well). It really sounds as if Wanda pushed Jillian out of her "safe zone" by controling her with the spell. Wanda taking contol in the dungeon is part of the game, but not outside it. Even if Jillian did like it, it was to far for her to go.

That has to be true- there's a time and place for stuff like that, and Mind Control explicitly makes it 'all the time' and- something most people wouldn't notice- it removes the ability to have a Safe Word (something which I'm sure they had simply because like a hilt on a sword it's the most obvious solution to problems that arise).

Safe Words are Serious Business in a situation like that, so I could understand why she'd be angry and taking some alone time. And of course Wanda's completely incapable of seeing what she did wrong due to being a bit thick about these things, because she has trouble separating the game from reality.

That said I'm sure that things will turn out all right for Wanda since Ansom's a jerk and Jillian will figure that out eventually.

[fendrin]

That has to be true- there's a time and place for stuff like that, and Mind Control explicitly makes it 'all the time' and- something most people wouldn't notice- it removes the ability to have a Safe Word (something which I'm sure they had simply because like a hilt on a sword it's the most obvious solution to problems that arise).

The spell doesn't work like that. It's more akin to the effects you would expect from being deeply in love than the effects of 'mind control'. That's why I'm still not convinced (though I realize that I, like the cheese, stand alone on this) that there ever really was a suggestion spell on Jillian.

Safe Words are Serious Business in a situation like that, so I could understand why she'd be angry and taking some alone time. And of course Wanda's completely incapable of seeing what she did wrong due to being a bit thick about these things, because she has trouble separating the game from reality.

You are making the assumption that they were smart about their play.
It wouldn't surprise me if they weren't.

I have a feeling (no real evidence, though) that the relationship developed after the fall of Faq, which means they've only played the few times Jillian has been captured (often enough to be commented enough, not enough to keep Ansom from trusting her). It also means that the line between torture/interrogation and play is less sharply defined than is healthy...

That said I'm sure that things will turn out all right for Wanda since Ansom's a jerk and Jillian will figure that out eventually.

I suspect that one or the other of them (hopefully Ansom) will croak before she comes to that conclusion.

[SteveMB]

I have a feeling (no real evidence, though) that the relationship developed after the fall of Faq

That is an interesting question for which we don't have any evidence either way. I could see the relationship developing before the fall of Faq -- choosing to be submissive to a subject could be a form of rebellion against Jillian's unwanted status as royal heir....

[MadMaw]

That's my impression as well. New strip will be posted any time now, I bet. Can't wait!

Based on what I've perceived, I would bet that Rob is a lot less sensitive and a lot more receptive to feedback (even critical feedback, so long as it's constructive) than some of his fans.

On both counts, check the Erfworld facebook page. Rob tends to update it as he finishes the most recent panel, also he's specifically asked for reader suggestions and ideas.

[Whispri]

The 'very hard way' could refer to anything extreme (such as the use of magic instead of just whips and such); Jillian's reaction was predicated not by the spell, but by the spell being revealed to her.

Of course I haven't given up on the extremely unlikely but possible idea that Wanda never cast a mind-control spell on Jillian. I'm stubborn like that.

If anything Healomancy seems the best candidate for doing things the very hard way, means more agony can be inflicted without killing the subject.

Suggestion spell, Maggie was pretty clear on it not being a Mind Control spell.

[Vanguard]

'Unwilling' usually refers to making the other side just crap out due to low morality. Such as making it the only way the RCC would win would be by choking GK's rivers with their dead. Besides, it can't be that powerful, or Wanda would've mentioned something about it.

If anything, it'll be a combination of spells, most likely.

Of course, odds are, Jack does come back next time...with a flight of
dwagons.

Well, Unwilling could also mean the cost simply may be too much for anyone to want to take the Garrison, I'm not gonna throw any cards at the table, I'm just gonna wait.

Dangit, I hate waiting...

[DragoonKain]

138's up! =D And now we see Parson's plan...

[HandofShadows]

The spell doesn't work like that. It's more akin to the effects you would expect from being deeply in love than the effects of 'mind control'. That's why I'm still not convinced (though I realize that I, like the cheese, stand alone on this) that there ever really was a suggestion spell on Jillian.

Wanda cast something on Jillan, if it wasn't a suggestion spell then what was it, and why would she lie about it?

I have a feeling (no real evidence, though) that the relationship developed after the fall of Faq, which means they've only played the few times Jillian has been captured (often enough to be commented enough, not enough to keep Ansom from trusting her). It also means that the line between torture/interrogation and play is less sharply defined than is healthy...

With you on the "dungeon playtime" being post Faq Fall. While I am sure that Jillian and Wanda knew each other Jillian didn't spen much time in Faq and I kinda doubt Banhammer who was anti violence would allow someone with Wanda's current tast to be in such a position of power. Also the Fall of Faq is the kind of thing that would cause problems to cause someone to see torture as a hobby. Jillian was captured more than a couple of times I think. Lots of Ansom's subordinates though she was a traitor. I DO have a (crackpot?) theory about why Ansom would not belive it. I am writing up a huge post concerning Jillian, Wanda and their relationship. The theory will be in it.

I suspect that one or the other of them (hopefully Ansom) will croak before she comes to that conclusion.

Another member of the "Kill Ansom Society"?

[fendrin]

Wanda cast something on Jillan, if it wasn't a suggestion spell then what was it, and why would she lie about it?

It could have been lots of things: healomancy for regeneration (to prolong the session), a truth spell, to make sure the information received is accurate, a 'sensation enhancer'... a little imagination and the options are nigh limitless.

Wanda would lie about it in order to get Stanley to release her. Do you really think that Stanley would let her go if she wasn't under a spell?

Jillian was captured more than a couple of times I think. Lots of Ansom's subordinates though she was a traitor. I DO have a (crackpot?) theory about why Ansom would not belive it. I am writing up a huge post concerning Jillian, Wanda and their relationship. The theory will be in it.

I would say she was captured several times, but the intimate nature of the relationship may not have developed until she had already been captured a few times.

Another member of the "Kill Ansom Society"?

It's not so much that I want Ansom dead as I want Jillian to survive; she has a much more interesting role in the story. Ansom is pretty much a single-purpose character: to destroy Stanley. Jillian, on the other hand, is much more complex. In addition to wanting to croak Stanley, she is in the love triangle (she may believe Wanda went too far, but that doesn't mean she doesn't love Wanda anymore).

Now imagine how much more complex that will get if Jillian blames Ansom's croaking on Stanley and/or Parson? She will be alone and want the companionship/comfort of a relationship, but she will also be even more anti-Stanley, and there's that pesky fact that Wanda is serving him willingly.

It would be much more interesting if Ansom croaks and Jillian lives.

[SteveMB]

Wanda would lie about it in order to get Stanley to release her. Do you really think that Stanley would let her go if she wasn't under a spell?

He's let her go before ("I don't like giving her up again."); apparently Wanda has convinced him that the catch-and-release program is doing some good for their side. Admittedly, she may have claimed that Jillian was under a spell all those times, too.

It's not so much that I want Ansom dead as I want Jillian to survive; she has a much more interesting role in the story. Ansom is pretty much a single-purpose character: to destroy Stanley.

His reaction to failure (assuming that Parson does pull out a victory in the end) could be interesting. Reading between the lines, I think Ansom's bottom-line reason for wanting to destroy Stanley is insecurity. On some level, he's afraid that the Stanley is right about the favor of the Titans as expressed via the Arkentools. By defeating Stanley, he'll prove (most importantly to himself) that this isn't so. If he can't defeat Stanley, despite all his military advantages, then that nagging doubt could come to the surface.

Admittedly, this is very much a reading between the lines with little in the way of real evidence. The best thing I can come up with is that Ansom's snap at Vinny strikes me as a textbook case of psychological projection.

Jillian, on the other hand, is much more complex. In addition to wanting to croak Stanley, she is in the love triangle (she may believe Wanda went too far, but that doesn't mean she doesn't love Wanda anymore).

Now imagine how much more complex that will get if Jillian blames Ansom's croaking on Stanley and/or Parson? She will be alone and want the companionship/comfort of a relationship, but she will also be even more anti-Stanley, and there's that pesky fact that Wanda is serving him willingly.

It would be much more interesting if Ansom croaks and Jillian lives.

I dunno. It could be more interesting if they both live, and Jillian continues to reject Ansom's views of how she should behave as a "proper" royal heir. (If my theory above is correct, those views could either harden or snap.)

[fendrin]

He's let her go before ("I don't like giving her up again."); apparently Wanda has convinced him that the catch-and-release program is doing some good for their side. Admittedly, she may have claimed that Jillian was under a spell all those times, too.

I would say that she had claimed Jillian was under a spell those times as well.

The first time Jillian was 'released' may have been a true rescue and not a ploy on the part of Wanda, so it is quite possible that the 'catch and release' plan has a basis beyond the spell(s).

Still, if Jillian really was captured that many times, why would Stanley be uncomfortable about letting her go again? He should be used to the idea of it being beneficial. Parson's plan would only make it more so.

His reaction to failure (assuming that Parson does pull out a victory in the end) could be interesting. Reading between the lines, I think Ansom's bottom-line reason for wanting to destroy Stanley is insecurity. On some level, he's afraid that the Stanley is right about the favor of the Titans as expressed via the Arkentools. By defeating Stanley, he'll prove (most importantly to himself) that this isn't so. If he can't defeat Stanley, despite all his military advantages, then that nagging doubt could come to the surface.

Admittedly, this is very much a reading between the lines with little in the way of real evidence. The best thing I can come up with is that Ansom's snap at Vinny strikes me as a textbook case of psychological projection.

I very much think you are right. Still, I see two possible reactions:
1) Ansom gets angry and wants to destroy Stanley. No real change from the status quo, which I feel would be boring.
2) Ansom slinks off with his tail between his legs, never to be seen or heard from again. Also boring.

I dunno. It could be more interesting if they both live, and Jillian continues to reject Ansom's views of how she should behave as a "proper" royal heir. (If my theory above is correct, those views could either harden or snap.)

If Ansom's views hardened, Jillian would get disgusted with him and that would collapse the love triangle. Boring.
If Ansom's views snap, he will lose motivation to attack GK and become a superfluous character. Also boring.

[SteveMB]

Still, if Jillian really was captured that many times, why would Stanley be uncomfortable about letting her go again? He should be used to the idea of it being beneficial. Parson's plan would only make it more so.

1. Stanley expressed reservations about the plan ("But it still seems risky.") -- perhaps the benefit of releasing Jillian seemed less rather than more convincing in this case.

2. Stanley may have been smarting because of the loss of the blue dwagon Jillian croaked before she got captured; perhaps that's the first time there was such a close association between the catch-and-release cycle and a dwagon casualty.

3. Stanley may have figured that this was going to be the last battle, one way or another, and that letting Jillian go to gather more intel and be re-captured and re-interrogated (the most obvious benefit of the catch-and-release cycle) was no longer relevant.

I very much think you are right. Still, I see two possible reactions:
1) Ansom gets angry and wants to destroy Stanley. No real change from the status quo, which I feel would be boring.
2) Ansom slinks off with his tail between his legs, never to be seen or heard from again. Also boring.

I can see several other possibilities. If Ansom's issues are what I think they are, and they're forced to the surface, there could be a whole new round of tensions with his allies, a discussion with Vinny that he can't dance around as (relatively) easily as he did last time, etc. The result could be that he still wants to croak Stanley, but can no longer muster the forces to effectively fight him. Or he could just let go of his grudge against Stanley and do other potentially interesting stuff. Or it could be a bit of both.

[fendrin]

1. Stanley expressed reservations about the plan ("But it still seems risky.") -- perhaps the benefit of releasing Jillian seemed less rather than more convincing in this case.

I don't really think Stanley thinks about strategy that much. He's about to lose his capital and he still wanted to raise a pretty-boy to Chief Warlord.

2. Stanley may have been smarting because of the loss of the blue dwagon Jillian croaked before she got captured; perhaps that's the first time there was such a close association between the catch-and-release cycle and a dwagon casualty.

That is possible.

3. Stanley may have figured that this was going to be the last battle, one way or another, and that letting Jillian go to gather more intel and be re-captured and re-interrogated (the most obvious benefit of the catch-and-release cycle) was no longer relevant.

See my response to point 1.

I can see several other possibilities. If Ansom's issues are what I think they are, and they're forced to the surface, there could be a whole new round of tensions with his allies, a discussion with Vinny that he can't dance around as (relatively) easily as he did last time, etc. The result could be that he still wants to croak Stanley, but can no longer muster the forces to effectively fight him. Or he could just let go of his grudge against Stanley and do other potentially interesting stuff. Or it could be a bit of both.

True, there are other possibilities. I just don't see them being an effective part of a story centered around Parson, who we know by name anagram is the protagonist.

[Godskook]

I would say that she had claimed Jillian was under a spell those times as well.

I'm curious, are you suggesting that Wanda lied to Stanley about having Jillian under a suggestion spell, and did it so well that Archons were convinced?

[DevilDan]

I'm curious, are you suggesting that Wanda lied to Stanley about having Jillian under a suggestion spell, and did it so well that Archons were convinced?

There was certainly a spell near the end, unless it was just surprise or a broken heart that caused Wanda's catatonia and partial aphasia.

[fendrin]

There was certainly a spell near the end, unless it was just surprise or a broken heart that caused Wanda's catatonia and partial aphasia.

Or Jaclyn had some other reason to lie. She had witnessed the distrust between Webinar and Jillian, so she may have been trying to test Jillian's loyalty.

If Jillian still refused to attack the dwagons, then Jaclyn would have known that Jillian was a double agent, and Charlie could have sold that info to Ansom at a very high price.

Alternately, If Jillian did attack the dwagons (as actually happened) then the lie didn't matter.

It's not as if anyone could catch her in the lie.

[DevilDan]

Or Jaclyn had some other reason to lie. She had witnessed the distrust between Webinar and Jillian, so she may have been trying to test Jillian's loyalty.

If Jillian still refused to attack the dwagons, then Jaclyn would have known that Jillian was a double agent, and Charlie could have sold that info to Ansom at a very high price.

Alternately, If Jillian did attack the dwagons (as actually happened) then the lie didn't matter.

It's not as if anyone could catch her in the lie.

Wait, how does this complicated scheme lead to the backlash effect experienced by Wanda?

[fendrin]

Wait, how does this complicated scheme lead to the backlash effect experienced by Wanda?

Well first it's not all that complicated, it's a simple cost/benefit analysis, which any consultant archon should be able to do in their sleep.

Second, it doesn't. Not directly.

Wanda's neurosis would, from this perspective, have resulted from the total and utter rejection she felt from the one person she ever opened up to and bonded with.

Keep in mind that Erf units have no loving parents. No basis for emotional maturity. They are popped fully knowledgeable, but still emotionally naive.
Add to that the way Wanda must feel isolated in GK, with no one she can relate to or confide in. The things she has had to do to survive... She has to have an emotional barrier whose defensive value rivals that of GK's walls. She can't open up to anyone in GK. Stanley is her superior and might disband her at the first sign of weakness. Everyone else is a subordinate and must be held in place with an iron hand.

Underneath her facade of haughty superiority is an emotionally immature woman who wants to be kind (and occasionally is, such as when she promotes Bogroll), wants to be accepted (she looked so much happier in Faq), but can't let that happen. She is too afraid of the consequences.

And then here comes Jillian. Jillian is from Faq (oh, the good ol' days), Jillian is not a superior, not a subordinate... Jillian is someone she can confide it, trust in, relax with. Wanda lets down her guard with Jillian.

And then Jillian rejects her for that boop Ansom.

[HandofShadows]

(SNIP good stuff)

And then Jillian rejects her for that boop Ansom.

I agree 100% with this line of thought. No spell backlash, emotional cushing.

[Aquillion]

I don't think so. Having pure emotional crushing cause her to go catatonic and then speak like a stroke victim would be a bit much even under normal circumstances, but in this case Maggie, an apparently competent professional Thinkamancer, has examined her and declared that her condition is the result of a Thinkamancy spell backlash.

[multilis]

Unwilling... in business takeovers this is called "poison pill", making a win painful.

Possible examples here: you lose your own kingdom or too many units if you take mine (too weak to defend self), or you need ally but don't trust him enough to work with him.

Charlie has annoyed 2 allies now and has very powerful and fast units. As well he isn't a royal and the royals often gang up on non royals. Lots of room on the Charlie/Royal mistrust front.

[fendrin]

I don't think so. Having pure emotional crushing cause her to go catatonic and then speak like a stroke victim would be a bit much even under normal circumstances...

I don't know, catatonia and slurred speech resulting from a mental breakdown doesn't seem that far fetched to me. Then again, I am not a doctor. Nor, I suspect, are the creators or most readers.

...but in this case Maggie, an apparently competent professional Thinkamancer, has examined her and declared that her condition is the result of a Thinkamancy spell backlash.

Maggie found what she expected to find. It would make sense for thinkamancy backlash to cause psychological trauma. That doesn't mean ALL psychological trauma is caused by thinkamancy backlash.

[DevilDan]

What happened to my comment pointing out Wanda's catatonia and partial aphasia and Maggie's diagnosis?