Dexterity as a prime attribute

[imp_fireball]

I gave it thought, and it's apparent that DEX isn't all that regarded as a stat. On that note, neither is CON, although it is regarded with some necessity among frontline classes as well as the wizard/sorceror for more of a point dumper. DEX isn't a necessary attribute for any of the core classes to function.

On this note, would it be plausible for anyone to homebrew up some classes that absolutely need DEX? Perhaps a martial class that merges DEX and STR and a caster that merges DEX and some other attribute? For the latter, I might have saw a dancer type somewhere, but it's probably lost.

Ah well, nonetheless... ideas?

[Frog Dragon]

umm... Dex is very important to rogues for AC almost always hitting things and sneaking. It's important to melee classes for AC and Arcanists want ray accuracy. It's a prime attribute for a rogue nearly always-

[imp_fireball]

Yes, but it isn't a prime attribute. And rogues aren't the target of attacks. Dex is merely needed for sneaking about, throwing things, saves, touch AC, defensive rolls, and that's it.

OK, that's a lot of things, however it applies to every class all the same unless you consider the rogue's special abilities every 10 levels.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Yes, but it isn't a prime attribute. And rogues aren't the target of attacks. Dex is merely needed for sneaking about, throwing things, saves, touch AC, defensive rolls, and that's it.

OK, that's a lot of things, however it applies to every class all the same unless you consider the rogue's special abilities every 10 levels.

Dude, weren't you listening. It's nearly always a prime attribute for rogues. It's also a pre-requisite to a few feats and gives a bunch of passive perks: bonuses to initiative, AC and weapon finesse and ranged attacks. Or do you mean it isn't a highly regarded attribute? You need to make this distinction.

Rogues are targets? Uhhh what? Maybe you mean to say they're not high on the priority list as a target? If this is what you're saying, on what basis are you making this claim, especially given any number of given gaming situations or playstyles that could crop up. I know I'd give serious consideration at killing a scout who doesn't belong or killing a flanking rogue.

So what exactly is your point? Dexterity doesn't get enough love? Okay, neither does wisdom or charisma apparently. And both attributes are arguably worse. So what?

[Thanatos 51-50]

Yes, but it isn't a prime attribute. And rogues aren't the target of attacks. Dex is merely needed for sneaking about, throwing things, saves, touch AC, defensive rolls, and that's it.

OK, that's a lot of things, however it applies to every class all the same unless you consider the rogue's special abilities every 10 levels.

You forgot shooting things.

Sweet, treacherous and treasonous Immortals, you forgot shooting things.
Without ranting on how important I have found the ability to shoot things - I feel obliged to point out that Armour Class is God in a martial encounter. Sneaking about gets you a major drop on the enemy, a surprise round means more sneak attack dice rolled in the encounter.
Dexterity governs Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Ride, Use Rope, Disable Device, Lockpicking, Balance - and I'm pretty sure some other neat skills I can't recall off the top of my head - all of which are VERY useful skills.

With a feat and the right weapon, it also governs stabbing things.

Dexterity is a beautfiul important, all-powerful attribute which I sacrifice small kittens to. My Unholy Altar to Dexterity is caked in kitten blood. (Admittidly, I don't like cats)

Dexterity is a God-Stat.

Alternatly, you could just ignore everything I wrote their Lauding Our Lord and Master, Dexterity, and play 4e, where pretty much all of the Rogue's and the Archer's (Read: Ranged Ranger) attack powers are Dexterity vs X.
That might make you happier.

EDIT:
Also, Rogues come standard with a bull's eye painted on their forehead. The Hide skill odes a little bit to cover it up.

[JackMage666]

Yeah, it's actually widely considered that Dex is the most needed stat out of all the classes. The only exclusion to this is the Figher/Paladin in Full Plate/other heavy armor, but even then it's still useful (especially when heavy armor becomes obsolete.)

Dex effects -
Reflex saves
Several Skills (a very good number of them)
AC (Base AC and Touch AC)
Initiative
Ranged Attacks (automatically)
Melee Attacks (with the help of Weapon Finesse, and easy achievably feat)

And there are several ways to get Dexterity to effect other things, too. These are just the simplest ones. The only thing more is Spells, and putting a physical stat in charge of spells is... Bad idea, Int is useful, for instant, for skills and Spells, that's it. Cha is useful for a few good skills and spellcasting, nothing else. Wisdom is perception and spells, but nothing else. Mental stat's power is replaced by their limited uses.

In comparison -

Str effects -
Climb, Jump, Swim.
Melee Damage (automatically)
Melee Attacks (automatically)
Ranged Damage (thrown/Composite bows)
Ranged Attacks (With thrown weapons only, and with the right feat from Complete Warrior at that)
Carrying capacity.

So, pretty much just damage (which is second-rate in 3.5e, when spells and sneak attack can do so much more so much quicker.)

Con effects -
Hit Points/level
Concentrate
Fortitude saves

So, not much. Good things, but not much.

Face it, Dex is utterly awesome in comparison to the others.

[imp_fireball]

I'd think int is probably the best attribute, but that's just an opinion.

CHA and WIS are prime attributes. Why? Because they're both needed in casting spells. WIS the main attribute of the cleric and druid, CHA is the main attribute of the sorceror and bard.

Sneak Attack does not require DEX to perform. It requires being a rogue/assassin/ninja/etc.. Are you saying that rogues are utterly awesome?

Also, I'd say rogues do not wish to be the target of attacks aside from spells and conditions that require reflex saves. However it's impossible to predict, by sending a rogue to the front line that anything besides traps (which a rogue can no doubt handle) would spring up on him. Also, melee is ultimately better, despite AC penalties. There's a variety of melee abilities that can be performed without any feats needed. There's conditions that increase melee attack modifiers. Also, consider campaigns in which very few feats may be selected, so your rogue might only have one feat at first level unless your human. Human fighters might also stand as utterly awesome in these settings, with three feats at first level.

None of that applies to ranged, unless the enemy you target is prone in some way.

Heavy armor will never be obsolete if your character was originally proficient with it, particularly when the superior light armor addition is countered by a superior heavy armor addition. Ie. Chain shirt +5 is better then full plate, but then a few levels later you discover full plate +5. You then find a way to make your chain shirt mithril and adamantium at the same time somehow, but then later on you find a fullplate mithril/adamantium that's superior. Clearly, you haven't played through enough campaigns it looks like.

I'm looking for a class that revolves around DEX.

[Maerok]

I gave it thought, and it's apparent that DEX isn't all that regarded as a stat. On that note, neither is CON, although it is regarded with some necessity among frontline classes as well as the wizard/sorceror for more of a point dumper. DEX isn't a necessary attribute for any of the core classes to function.

On this note, would it be plausible for anyone to homebrew up some classes that absolutely need DEX? Perhaps a martial class that merges DEX and STR and a caster that merges DEX and some other attribute? For the latter, I might have saw a dancer type somewhere, but it's probably lost.

Ah well, nonetheless... ideas?

This just seems backward.

[imp_fireball]

... why, how?

What I meant is, DEX isn't a prime attribute for any class I know that's not homebrew, and even then; it's not given very much regard/attention among any of the wotc classes that I've seen.

If I meant that DEX needs more love, which it certainly does not any more then any other attribute, then I'd say "People need to appreciate DEX more."

[Lappy9000]

Heavy armor will never be obsolete if your character was originally proficient with it, particularly when the superior light armor addition is countered by a superior heavy armor addition.

Touch Attack.

Clearly, you haven't played through enough campaigns it looks like.

Always be careful when using that phrase, because it appears condenscending, no matter how you meant it.

This is becoming more of a discussion, which would belong in the Gaming d20 board.

[The Neoclassic]

Heavy armor will never be obsolete if your character was originally proficient with it, particularly when the superior light armor addition is countered by a superior heavy armor addition. Ie. Chain shirt +5 is better then full plate, but then a few levels later you discover full plate +5. You then find a way to make your chain shirt mithril and adamantium at the same time somehow, but then later on you find a fullplate mithril/adamantium that's superior. Clearly, you haven't played through enough campaigns it looks like.

Forgive me if I am misinterpreting, but are you suggesting that rogues should be wearing heavy armor rather than light or medium? If that's the case, I'm afraid you shall find some disagreement on that front. If not, my reading skills must be failing me.

[lisiecki]

... why, how?

What I meant is, DEX isn't a prime attribute for any class I know that's not homebrew, and even then; it's not given very much regard/attention among any of the wotc classes that I've seen.

Using only happy words
what do you think the prime attribute for rogues is?

[The Glyphstone]

Rogues like Dexterity because with Weapon finesse, they can take it and completely dump Strength, since their main damage source is Sneak Attack. This improves their overall AC and Initiative (both important to a rogue), helps their Reflex save (higher chance for Evasion to work), and synergizes with far more of their relevant skills than Strength would (Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, and Use Rope are all Dex-dependent skills on the Rogue's class list, versus Climb, Jump, and Swim for Str-dependent.

EDIT: And below makes a good point - it's pretty much a guarantee that rogues don't want to get attacked in combat. That has no bearing whatsoever on if they will get attacked or not, particularly against intelligent enemies. And when they DO get attacked....Dex will help them out there, moreso than it would a beefy fighter in plate.

[Mando Knight]

Heavy armor will never be obsolete if your character was originally proficient with it, particularly when the superior light armor addition is countered by a superior heavy armor addition. Ie. Chain shirt +5 is better then full plate, but then a few levels later you discover full plate +5. You then find a way to make your chain shirt mithril and adamantium at the same time somehow, but then later on you find a fullplate mithril/adamantium that's superior. Clearly, you haven't played through enough campaigns it looks like.

I'm looking for a class that revolves around DEX.

I don't know who you're playing with, nor how often you play, but your derision of Dexterity's usefulness is... disturbing.

What's a high-Dex character doing in heavy armor? Yes, it's more powerful as a defensive measure, but it has massive check penalties, and Dex-based classes don't start out proficient in it.

You're looking for Rogue: a Rogue has no reason to be in anything heavier than a Chain Shirt, and when she reaches 26 Dex (unlikely without a few magic items, though...), her normal AC will be the same as a Paladin/Fighter in Full Plate when she's in padded armor, and her primary abilities will be maximized: with Weapon Finesse or ranged weapons, her to-hit is high, her Reflex Save is high, her Disable Device, Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, etc. checks will be through the roof...

...A ranged-Ranger will be much the same, though with different focuses...

[Lert, A.]

Sneak Attack does not require DEX to perform. It requires being a rogue/assassin/ninja/etc.. Are you saying that rogues are utterly awesome?

Yes. They are. I'm not biased, really.

Also, I'd say rogues do not wish to be the target of attacks aside from spells and conditions that require reflex saves.

I'm pretty sure that not wanting to get hit applies to everyone. And what is it that helps Reflex saves again?

Heavy armor will never be obsolete if your character was originally proficient with it, particularly when the superior light armor addition is countered by a superior heavy armor addition. Ie. Chain shirt +5 is better then full plate, but then a few levels later you discover full plate +5. You then find a way to make your chain shirt mithril and adamantium at the same time somehow, but then later on you find a fullplate mithril/adamantium that's superior.

So you think Int is the best skill because you need to max out your skill ranks to use Dex based skills in armor? Skills which will works less often because you don't believe that Dex is really a primary stat that needs attention.

Clearly, you haven't played through enough campaigns it looks like.

Okay, coming from someone who has played the game for decades and has GMed dozens of campaigns, I can tell you that a rogue needs Dex. As do archer rangers or ranged fighters, swashbucklers of all sorts....

I'm looking for a class that revolves around DEX.

I'm fairly certain that you are not, because people are giving very good reasons why certain classes have Dex as a primary stat and you are apparently plugging your ears and yelling because you don't want to be wrong. Please, you really do seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. Try to work with people here.

[Baron Corm]

I'd think int is probably the best attribute, but that's just an opinion.

CHA and WIS are prime attributes. Why? Because they're both needed in casting spells. WIS the main attribute of the cleric and druid, CHA is the main attribute of the sorceror and bard.

Sneak Attack does not require DEX to perform. It requires being a rogue/assassin/ninja/etc.. Are you saying that rogues are utterly awesome?

You're making people misunderstand you. All you're saying is how much specific classes care about the attributes, not how good the attributes themselves are. Intelligence is definitely a lot worse than Dexterity in almost any combat situation, but you think it's the best because you think wizards are the best. I think you need to make that distinction.

Also, I'd say rogues do not wish to be the target of attacks aside from spells and conditions that require reflex saves. However it's impossible to predict, by sending a rogue to the front line that anything besides traps (which a rogue can no doubt handle) would spring up on him. Also, melee is ultimately better, despite AC penalties. There's a variety of melee abilities that can be performed without any feats needed. There's conditions that increase melee attack modifiers. Also, consider campaigns in which very few feats may be selected, so your rogue might only have one feat at first level unless your human. Human fighters might also stand as utterly awesome in these settings, with three feats at first level.

None of that applies to ranged, unless the enemy you target is prone in some way.

It's very hard to understand what you're trying to say here, but I think you're saying that ranged attacks are useless? Being ranged keeps you away from damage, as well as allowing you a greater selection of targets. Both things a rogue wants.

In any case, it is common also for a rogue to use Weapon Finesse with melee weapons. This is because rogues dual-wield for more sneak attack damage, and dual-wielding requires light weapons, which are finesseable. As has been said, the bonus damage from Strength pales in comparison to the bonus AC, Reflex, and initiative (initiative = sneak attacks) from Dexterity. Do most of the rogues you play with really use Strength?

I'm looking for a class that revolves around DEX.

I'm pretty sure you're looking for the rogue. Any melee class could use Dexterity over Strength, also, and you have plenty of reasons for this between all the posts. I would mention the monk, because they don't wear armor anyway, and at 38 Dexterity you officially have higher AC than any armor-wearer could have, but that might just lead to a random monkflame discussion. Hey, in NWN, Dex-based monks were the best class x)

But if you want to make ANOTHER Dexterity-centered class, make it have precision-based save-or-sucks (so you can say that the DC is 10 + 1/2 level + Dex bonus because it's based on accuracy), and make it wield light or ranged weapons (for reasons similar to a rogue's reasons).

Edit: Wow, poor imp_fireball. Didn't mean to hammer it in, I got my long rant ninja'd by more long rants.

[BRC]

Question, if Dex isn't a Rogue's primary attribute, then what, exactly IS. It's not Str, as rouges get most of their damage from sneak attacks, it's not Int, as Rogues get plenty of skill points (INT isnt' a rogue dump stat, but it's hardly primary).

[imp_fireball]

Forgive me if I am misinterpreting, but are you suggesting that rogues should be wearing heavy armor rather than light or medium? If that's the case, I'm afraid you shall find some disagreement on that front. If not, my reading skills must be failing me.

I said, if your character was ORIGINALLY PROFICIENT with it. As in, that was his base proficiency. Bad wording, sorry 'bout that.

Heavy armor is better if you're a martial class. As for touch attacks, deflection bonuses work wonders.

Dex is great when you reach epic levels, but how many campaigns center around that sort of thing? Also, normally you'd want to take up the magic items that boost other stats first off. Also 38 dex = +14 dodge bonus to AC. Mithril fullplate has a max dex of 3, so if you had 16 dex and were wearing +5 enhancement bonus mithril fullplate, your AC modifier would be +16 when prepared, so one would need 16 dex modifier (42 DEX) to overcome this modifier. Also leather would be too heavy in that circumstance.

Even under the strange circumstance that your character obtains mithril padded armor +5, with a max DEX modifier of 10, his AC bonus would be virtually the same as full plate. And if you could wield a +5 heavy steel shield as a martial class, that would skyrocket things higher.

Finally, I'd like to mention that INT is pretty important for the rogue. What better way to maximize a skill monkey class then give them more skills? That's what a rogue is good for. Also leaves plenty of elbow room for all the other classes to invest in other things like augmenting martial prowess and just letting the rogue deal with all the skill based checks.

[Night10194]

Hmmm...I think I see what he's getting at. It's not a question of what's the most useful stat in the game for all classes, but whether or not there's a class for whom a high dex is required to do all their stuff, similar to how a 19+ Int/Wis/Cha is required for a mage/cleric/sorcerer to get their highest class features (9th level spells). The question then becomes...is there a Con or Str based class like that? Not really. From what I've seen, only the casters really require a high stat to accomplish their full feature set as a class.

The problem is to-hit and not to be hit. A rogue isn't strictly enforced to be really good at dex or be unable to use Sneak Attack past a certain point, but a Rogue who is *excellent* at Dex, has Weapon Finesse and TWF, and thus makes up for their Medium attack bonus? He/she will kick ten times more butt than a Rogue who has 4 Sneak Attacks, but whiffs all of them due to penalties, medium attack bonus, etc. Thus, it's not strictly prohibited, but rather merely a very good idea for a Rogue to have high dex, just as it's possible to build a Fighter who focuses on Int, Wis, Cha...just probably not that wise.

[Gorgondantess]

Ok, so you want a class that requires good dexterity? I don't see why rogues don't but after that I'd say swashbuckler. To gain any of the good class abilities, they have to be using a finesse weapon. Which requires dexterity. There ya go.

[Heliomance]

I would note that armour does precisely nothing for your touch AC, whearas high dex does. And with Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge, you don't need to worry about your flatfooted AC.

[Innis Cabal]

You've ignored most of the important posts here Imp, all those pointing out how important Dex is for a rogue.

A few they missed and you mentioned. How do you think a Rogue gets better at disarming traps outside of skill points? Its a dex skill. The lower the Dex, the lower the chance to disarm that trap.

If the rogues in your games, or you yourself, don't max out dex for the rogue, thats alright. But it is vital, yes vital for a rogue. Intitative wins battles, even if you have improved init, thats still a +4 if you only have 10 dex. Betting alot of monsters get to go before your party rogue, and that is a no no.

[Bandededed]

Heavy armor is better if you're a martial class. As for touch attacks, deflection bonuses work wonders.

If by martial you mean tanks, than yes. And how expensive are deflection bonuses again?

Dex is great when you reach epic levels

Or, you know, way before that for any of the archetypes mentioned by everyone else who is disagreeing with you.

Also, normally you'd want to take up the magic items that boost other stats first off.

Not if you were maximizing dex, and dropping, oh I don't know, the other five ability scores that you don't need to improve with magic items? Honestly, STR is no needed for a rogue, con doesn't need to be boosted (if it was decent to start with), and int, wis, and cha are only as needed as the skills you use. If you hate social encounters, you can dump cha, if you don't mind having only 8 sp / level, you can leave int alone at 10, and wis is important if and only if you want to be a scout. Or to sense motives.

Also 38 dex = +14 dodge bonus to AC. Mithril fullplate has a max dex of 3, so if you had 16 dex and were wearing +5 enhancement bonus mithril fullplate, your AC modifier would be +16 when prepared, so one would need 16 dex modifier (42 DEX) to overcome this modifier.

Yeah, and at this point the naked rogue is looking at the fully suited tank character and saying: "My AC is two less than yours, but I have and extra 35500 GP to spend on other stuff, 'cause I don't wear armor,"

Even under the strange circumstance that your character obtains mithril padded armor +5, with a max DEX modifier of 10, his AC bonus would be virtually the same as full plate.

Ok, you can't make something not metal mithril, though I suspect you know that. And, if you haven't pleaded with your DM for clothes to be enchanted as armor, with your 38 dex, I pity you.

And if you could wield a +5 heavy steel shield as a martial class, that would skyrocket things higher.

And a rogue can add a +5 buckler and still only lose 1 point of shield bonus to AC. Then he can use his extra cash from not wearing armor to by bracers of armor and laugh as his AC caps the fighters.

[thubby]

go over to wotc's character optimization boards and ask them to make you a lvl 5 version 3.5 rogue with standard starting gold, make it core only if you like.
you'd be amazed.

if you actually consider the skills you take and use as a rogue, dexterity provides comparable if not more of a total effective skill level as intelligence.

[afroakuma]

Hmmm...I think I see what he's getting at. It's not a question of what's the most useful stat in the game for all classes, but whether or not there's a class for whom a high dex is required to do all their stuff, similar to how a 19+ Int/Wis/Cha is required for a mage/cleric/sorcerer to get their highest class features (9th level spells).

I concur; that seems to be what he's driving for.

And there's no correlation between how highly a stat is regarded and whether or not it is essential to have a specified amount of that stat to pull off your best tricks.

The primary reason that they wouldn't do it is that Dexterity is a powerful stat all on its own. Initiative, AC and Reflex bonuses, plus ranged attack bonus and boosts to a cadre of valuable skills, mean that a class permitted to focus on Dexterity to the exclusion of everything else would have far too many advantages compared to a class built around Int, Wis or Cha.

As has been said, Dexterity is essential for rogues to do their job. It's just that their abilities aren't mandated by how much Dexterity you have, but rather boosted based on it.

Requiring a set ability score to accomplish your class features is not good class design. Wizards et. al had it grandfathered in, and had some fair logic behind it. They also achieve pretty decent power levels regardless, and the designers didn't want it to be as easy as dumping every ability bonus into Dex and Con, which is why they required that a fully-trained wizard prop up his Int.

[Draz74]

The OP has a point that it is *possible* to build a decent Rogue without good Dex. Especially if your Rogue isn't the skulking thief stereotype. (Though, unless you multiclass or spend precious feats on armor proficiency, AC is going to be a problem for any low-Dex Rogue, even if everything else about him is fine.)

But "archer," even if it's not a class, is a pretty strong archetype. Heck, we can even look at the Archery Track Ranger and call it a class, or a sub-class. And archers definitely have Dex as their "key ability score." Even if you ignore the whole accuracy thing (e.g. via Zen Archery), look at these feat prerequisites:

Improved Precise Shot: Dex 19
Rapid Shot: Dex 13
Manyshot: Dex 17

Ok, so technically the aforementioned Ranger gets those all as bonus feats anyway. But he still *needs* Dex for accuracy and AC.

Plus, as others have mentioned, even without being a class's "key ability," Dex is the least-often "dumped" ability score by all classes, except maybe Con.

Also, it may not be core, but whoever said Swashbuckler is pretty impossible to build without good Dex is correct, and that's not a homebrew class.

[Hawriel]

This thread is making me think about a rogue based on str int and wis. At least two of the three. Yes I can see this. The big guy who seems like a dumb cluts but is the smartest guy in the room. Who can brake your neck just as easily as conning you out of your mony. Hmm Imp graple + sneak attack = broken neck. Out come I have your mony, and no blood on my shirt.

Oh Imp, you can't have armor thats made from more than one special material. Its eather mithril, adamantine, or dark wood. Not all of them. Weapons are different, but only slightly so. You can have a dark wood hafted spear with an admantine tip.

[afroakuma]

Check out the Thug fighter variant. Exchanges fighter bonus feats for full sneak attack, making him close to a Str-based thief.

[imp_fireball]

However, the thug is sloppy. It offers a few more skills which are miniscule compared to the rogue, and the severe lack of bonus feats is a major turn off.

Anyway, no I didn't miss the points you made about rogues absolutely needing DEX. I'm saying that it isn't a PRIME ATTRIBUTE.

In any case, I'm lead to believe that it was initially due to rogues only being proficient to light armor that caused an elevation towards DEX. DEX doesn't help attacks unless you burn a feat. It's great for staying alive with the fighters and barbarians but not for front line work.

[afroakuma]

It's pretty prime for ranged attacks.