Erfworld #138 - The Discussion Thread

[fendrin]

What may be lost are the tower and the courthouse, two thirds of the garrison. Presumably, Parson will make his last stand in the third part, the dungeon.

counter-picking a nit on nitpick: courtyard, not courthouse.

[DevilDan]

counter-picking a nit on nitpick: courtyard, not courthouse.

Ha. I should have been paying more attention, it would appear. Thank you, Fendrin.

[Lizard Lord]

If there is a fight dance bonus with undead, there is only one song that would work. Thriller

In the same "dance fighting" line of thought, most of the golems look like they could dance fight and "We will rock you" sounds like something they would sing. Especially when you remember that Erfworld just loves puns.

[ReccaSquirrel]

Will it really be Shock and Awe or will it be Shock and Thaw?

[The Old Hack]

Yeah, just be glad Ansom doesn't have to deal with petty Chinese generals in his coalition.

"I would rather fight an alliance than be part of one." -- Napoleon Bonaparte

At this stage, there is not really much left in the way of planning save that of timing, which was in Ansom's hands. What Parson has revealed isn't really that much of a plan, it's just a pep talk to bolster the failing morale of his officers as well as an explanation of his growing understanding of the rules. "We'll sit tight, strike back at what openings we can find and wait for our turn to uncroak the casualties."

Of course, that trope about plans has very strong support in the old saying that no battle plan survives contact with the enemy. The reason that plans seem to work better when not revealed is that they don't survive then either, the planner is simply in a better position to claim that, yeah, this was what she/he had wanted to happen all along.

Of the two leaders, Parson and Ansom, I would say that the biggest edge Parson has consists of his ability to read, predict and even manipulate Ansom. Which is very important, of course. The thing is, I do not think Ansom is a bad leader per se -- he is merely overmatched in this case. Most of his worst decisions stem from after Parson managed to wound his pride, of which by far the worst was to send his top advisor to a different front.

As to Stanley ruining everything... somehow he seems a little different after the débacle of the ambush. He actually appeared uncertain, which is very out of character for what we have seen of him so far. Perhaps he will be just a bit more willing to listen to Parson when he returns? Ah well...

[dr pepper]

Hey folks, 'booty' meant treasure/riches/plunder in medieval times.
It did not start to refer to anatomy until the roaring 20s.

Given the way that Erfworld food pops automatically with a simultaneous reduction in treasury funds, dining on money is not a hard stretch.

I'd speculate that Ansom's turn of phrase, while amusing to us (and Parson, if he heard it) would be perfectly understood by the other Erf natives.

We already understood all that. It's just another of the amazing coincidences of Erf terminology.

[Lemarc]

I don't understand some of these complaints. The less I like a work, the less I care about it, and so the less I talk about it. Not vice versa.

[dr pepper]

Wait...
So his only hope is that Ansom will send in one stack at a time or something, right? And that Ansom, unlike in the woods oh so long ago, will not see that this tactic doesn't work after 1 or 2 stacks and stop sending them into the "meat grinder". This plan is just wrong and assumes that Ansom is just a complete idiot. Yeesh.

Parson is counting on the momentum of the attackers. It won't be a line of individual stacks operating one at a time to breach the wall, it'll be the combine pressure of the entire force. And when the breach is made, there'll be no way to stop suddenly, people will be propelled through by the pressure from behind. Ansom can command them to stop but it will take several melee rounds during which they will be exposed to concentrated attacks, especially from archers and spells. See "Murder Hole".

[dr pepper]

You need to go back and read your Ender.

Argh! I read Ender's Game in 1974 when it was a short story. Since then, i understand that it was expanded into a novel, but i don't recognze any of the references people keep making. I'm beginning to think the author must have just gutted the original plot and started over.

[Dairuka]

It took me many fully played through games to know all of the ins-and-outs of a deep yet flawed strategy game like Civilization, and Parson is managing to do this in under 20 turns in a more complex militaristic version.

A min/max master like him would be about as close to a perfect warlord as it gets in a game-world like Erfworld.

Warning: Civilization Reference.

I think Parson's supposed boop-ups are on the same level as me slave-rushing catapults to collateral damage a stack of death filled to the brim with a dozen Aztec Jaguars that caught me off guard only about 60 turns into the game with their two forest movement and no-resource requirement - just so my meager one axeman and three defending archers can kill them off one-by-one until it's no longer feasible for them to take my city.

Sure, it's my fault I was caught off guard, as I can't plan for every aspect of the game. Sure the other guy was majorly lucky to pull off such a rush. Sure the position looks hopeless, but I'll fight on regardless. Sure I'll lose a lot of improvements around the city. Sure I'll lose a lot of population rushing everything. Sure I'll lose plenty of units in the defense and inevitable counter-attacks. No, I won't be able to reinforce the city in time with slave-rushed Axemen. Yes this will seem like a Pyrrhic victory after the dust has settled - but in the end, the city will be safe, and I'll be in a position to counter-attack with reinforcements. Why? Because with a rush that large, that early, it's clear they put all their eggs in one basket... which is never a good strategy.

Sounds like Stanley is the cavalry in this case, even if he didn't plan on it. Ansom really is putting his boops in a vice.

Oh, and in case you're wondering. When I counter-attacked the guy playing the Aztecs, I destroyed him in around 20 turns. He only had Jaguars and Axemen to defend with, and I had Shock Promoted Axemen and Catapults.

[dr pepper]

Also, sorry, but did anyone say why Wanda was able to beat Ansom in that exchange they had? Was it some power she has over the pliers or was it the mechanics of fighting in this game? Namely that Ansom got to attack something that "round" and then Wanda's guys all got to get their hits(ies) in and Wanda happened to be the last and got enough damage finally to incapacitate him? I guess I just don't get how fighting works in this still.

My assumption is that she used some sort of kinetic ability from her staff to immobilize the pliers so Ansom couldn't bring it to bear. It only had to last a single melee round to allow the uncroaked Webinar to put the KABOSS down.

[dr pepper]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that Parson probably didn't include the spells and stuff that Wanda has, given that he didn't know about them, in his calculations of Charlie taking the garrison.

Several people have mentioned it. I even said that this could be a deciding factor. BTW, for Parson to do the calculation, Charlie would have had to specify the exact capabilities of the archons.

[fendrin]

BTW, for Parson to do the calculation, Charlie would have had to specify the exact capabilities of the archons.

Not necessarily. The bracer could be pre-programmed with generic 'archon' stats. Sure it's less precise, but any form of probability calculation is going to have a margin of error.

Besides, once those archons entered the city, all parson had to do was look at them with his glasses (or any other warlord just look at them) to see their stats. Giving that information away is not a big deal.

[SteveMB]

I don't understand some of these complaints. The less I like a work, the less I care about it, and so the less I talk about it. Not vice versa.

In my experience, people are most likely to offer this sort of criticism when they think the work "missed it my that much" on some point or other. That's inevitable once you have an audience of any size; you can't please everybody.

[shamelessmerc]

I love the expression on Wanda's face when Parson says "meat grinder" and the subsequent "mm" of pleasure. Is it the obvious double-entendre that arouses Wanda, or the impending notion of violence? Pretty kinky either way, which is not outside the realm of possibility given what we know about Wanda.

Since when is "meat grinder" a double entendre? Unless it's in a situation where someone takes any random sentence and says it in a "sexy" tone of voice in a feeble attempt to make it dirty?

I loved that exchange as well, because you go straight from "Yeah! Kill those goody-two-shoes boops!" to "OMG, somebody tell me she is not physicaly AROUSED by the prospect of wall to wall gore!?!"

Moments like that... pure Tarantino

[DevilDan]

Not necessarily. The bracer could be pre-programmed with generic 'archon' stats. Sure it's less precise, but any form of probability calculation is going to have a margin of error.

Besides, once those archons entered the city, all parson had to do was look at them with his glasses (or any other warlord just look at them) to see their stats. Giving that information away is not a big deal.

I remember that the idea of the possibility of a generic archon precisely as part of these calculations was a reason I used to argue that at least not all archons are casters. (I'm not sure why I'm bringing this up; trauma, probably.)

[Eisen]

Ugh, hopefully NEVER.
The problem with Stanley is that he thinks on a different wavelength and can mess up Parson's plans big time. He's recalled the dragons once when it would have been better to leave them in Parson's hands, left Parson to defend Gobwin Nob with little to no air support, and this whole trip to FAQ was...

Well it was a complete FAQing waste of time.

Stanley as an individual, yes.

But Stanley as a walking, talking heap of stacked up bonuses is something else.

Look, we know already Parson can't win by numbers. He's trying to wi through attrition. And that's fine. But attrition works both ways. And it's always worse for the smaller side, no matter the ratio. When you're outnumbered 20 to 1, unles you're killing 21 for every 1 you lose, you won't win. Wanda's Croakamancy skills will cerntainly help there but...the best thing you can do in a situation like that is make your troops as strong as possible. Make every one a match for any number of enemies. Use terrain, use psychological warfare. You aren't winning a battle. You're messing with the other guy until he kills himself. Stanley's bonuses would be a massive boon. And let's not even talk about what they can do with Jack and the remaining Dwagons.

[HandofShadows]

Which is how Parson probably saw his owns plans from the start.

A good observation. Pason does not think his plan is a great unbeatable plan. In fact it's more like a statment of goals and assinging subordinants to carry them out the best way they know how. This gives a fair amount of flexibility and allows for taking advantages of sudden openings or error on Amson's part. Ansom seems less flexable than Parson, which is logical since he has more of a middle ages mindset about battle while Person clearly has a very modern one.

[Trotsky]

One thing I was wondering was that, if Stanley returns on the next turn, how is he going to get to the ground? Currently he would have to fly through a rather sizable group of archons (some of which are presumable those meant to croak him with Vinnie in the first place), unless Dwagons can walk, at which point he could try the front door (which is currently controlled by Ansom).

It would be an interesting ending to this chapter of the story if Parson holds out and, just before he is going to mount a counter-attack on whatever forces the coalition has left, Stanely shows up and gets croaked by Charlie. This might allow any unkown provisions in the contract with Ansom (which I expect contains a clause were he can claim a certain amount of Gobwin Knob's assets, of his own choosing of course, as part of his payment) to come into play so that he can take Parson, and possibly the casters, as his payment.

*edited because I can't spell*

[Lombard]

"missed it by that much"

Coincidentally enough (after I fixed your typo), that it a pretty good motto for Parson in this strip. heheheh

[DevilDan]

One thing I was wondering was that, if Stanley returns on the next turn, how is he going to get to the ground? Currently he would have to fly through a rather sizable group of archons (some of which are presumable those meant to croak him with Vinnie in the first place), unless Dwagons can walk, at which point he could try the front door (which is currently controlled by Ansom).

Stanley does have a master foolamancer in his entourage.

[dr pepper]

How about: Parson crushes the RCC attack, Ansom is forced to end turn when he runs out of actions. GK's turn starts, Parson mobs the surviving units with his new undead troops. As his stacks dissolve around him, Ansom forms up his best remaining units for an all out thrust. As he cuts his way through he sees Parson and bellows a challenge, only to hear "sorry, Blondie, you have a prior engagement!" from behind. He turns to see Stanley bearing down on him.

Two men! Two causes! Two artifacts! Everything else fades away as they fight it out. Eventually both are dismounted and disarmed. Ansom grabs another dropped sword. Stanley snaps his fingers and a gobwin hands him a pike. Stanley contemptuously parries Ansom's stroke and puts the pike blade to his neck. "Surrender!" "Never!"

Bogroll rushes over. "Wait, Lord, wait! Lord Hamster contacted Jetstone by thinkagram. The king has agreed to surrender! And pay ransom for the prince."

Surrender turns out to be moot, as Ansom is the only Jetstone unit left not croaked or uncroaked. The leaders of the other sides immediately declare themselves neutral.

Parson congratulates Stanley on his victory and his acquisition of the Arkenpliers. He also suggests that Wanda be allowed to examine the pliers and research their properties.

Parson asks Stanley to come inside somewhere that the archons can't see for a full report, concluding with the warning that they may have to fight Charlie next. Stanley replies "good, he's got my next artifact. The Titans' plan continues!" Behind them, Wanda, Jack, and Maggie are deep in animated discussion. A multi colored 3 dimensional chart floats in front of them.

EndTurn: GobwinKnob.

Somewhere else. Vinnie and the Jets recall their remaining bats while Caesar reports to the Godfather via thinkagram. "Yeah Boss, Ansom booped up like nobody booped up ever before-- we're heading back." Vinnie waves as Jillian lifts off with her gwiffons. "So, you goin' to be with Ansom?" "Nah, i think he's gonna need some alone time for awhile." "Welp, laterzz then." "Yeah, laterzz!"

End of Part One.

[Glome]

One thing I was wondering was that, if Stanley returns on the next turn, how is he going to get to the ground? Currently he would have to fly through a rather sizable group of archons (some of which are presumable those meant to croak him with Vinnie in the first place), unless Dwagons can walk, at which point he could try the front door (which is currently controlled by Ansom).

*edited because I can't spell*

He has a world class foolamancer and the archons don't yet know he is coming. I'm sure Stanley can sneak back into the courtyard if he has to.

[mortissimus]

I read a short history of castles once that claimed that most of the instances of a major one changing hands were due to treachery or seige, and that successful storming was rare.

Strategically speaking, it's better not to assault fortified cities at all.

Historically speaking, it all depends. It depends on the state of the art of fortifications and artillery as well as the power-relations behind and within the armies. Many armies could not stay long in the field some seasons lest their soldiers went awol to travel home and save their harvests, others were led by kings or emperors that could not afford to stay abroad long times as their competitors might stage a coup at home. Other times a professional army could just live of the occupied land and thus siege for a long time.

Fortifications and artillery also evolve with alternating dominance. As an example, Machiavellis recomendation for a succesfull prince is to build a sturdy castle in a good location (with good wells for fresh water) and have plentiful supplies of dried food. Hire an engineer to locate the positions from where your castle can be bombarded and blast those positions. If invaded gather fresh food from your villages and allow the villagers to take cover in your castle. If their villages are burnt by the enemy, their loyalty to you will be increased. The enemy might siege you but it is more costly to hold an army in the field and eventually it will be needed elsewhere.

Machiavellis advice were sound for his age. He died in 1527. Three decades later Henry II of France used the improvement of cannons to blast away the castles of princes in northern Italy.

/history rant.

This has of course little to do with Parson's situation. We know to little of the bonuses for fortifications or the values for siege and heavies attacking fortifications to draw any conclusions on the costs of charging a Goblin Knob.

[teratorn]

Historically speaking, it all depends. It depends on the state of the art of fortifications and artillery as well as the power-relations behind and within the armies.

There is at least one example in history of a coalition storming a city and wiping an entire side, the sacking of Nineveh. The place was levelled and nearly all the people there butchered, the city was forgotten.

[HandofShadows]

If you what someone that attacked (fortified) cities a lot and won try the Mongels. They butched cities from eastern China to Moscow to the Middle East (Bagdad was a HUGE loss to the Arabs). Some of the descriptions of what they left are enough to give nightmares.

[Welf]

He has a world class foolamancer and the archons don't yet know he is coming. I'm sure Stanley can sneak back into the courtyard if he has to.

Well, there's risk and reward. The most important reward of an intervening Stanley would be additional bonuses from an overlord and his hammer. Also he could surgically attack the leadership stacks. The ,on the other side, is that he could be blown away from the archons. And if Stanley is croaked, everything is over.
Until Jetstone's next turn the two forces of the archons and the RCC are separated and should be fought separately. First the RCC ground forces, and then the archons. Maybe Parson can capture some Healers from the RCC and use them to support Stanley and his dwagons. Together with the archers and Wanda that reanimates every fallen archon they could really have a chance.

[Aquillion]

If you what someone that attacked (fortified) cities a lot and won try the Mongels. They butched cities from eastern China to Moscow to the Middle East (Bagdad was a HUGE loss to the Arabs). Some of the descriptions of what they left are enough to give nightmares.

The Mongols generally went after major population centers and not fortresses, though. That was part of what made them so dangerous; they were quick and mobile enough that they could just ignore the fortresses in favor of devastating hit-and-run strikes on unprotected areas.

[HandofShadows]

The Mongols generally went after major population centers and not fortresses, though. That was part of what made them so dangerous; they were quick and mobile enough that they could just ignore the fortresses in favor of devastating hit-and-run strikes on unprotected areas.

Most cities both in China and the Middle East at the time where fortified. The Mongals would use hit and run tactics to destroy the defending armies then lay siege to the city. And they had a LOT more siege equipment than you might think.

[Capt'n Ironbrow]

some sieges lasted for years, even Homeric periods of time. I belive there have been sieges of 10 years in china during the Mongol conquest of the Song dynasty.

and Sun Tzu says that the preparations for a succesfull assault on a fortified city will at least take 3 months.