# Thread: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

1. ## Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

I figure this makes more sense here.

The contest is simple, Get this spell down to a reasonable level, as well as improving it beyond the basics here.

Seed Used: Animate

Earth is 1,083,206,246,123,080,894,852 m3
This is translated to 1.0832062461230809e+21 or 1,083,206,246,123,080,900,000 Cubic Feet
1,083,206,246,123,080,900,000 shall be rounded up to 1.1e+21 for simplicity.

(1000-20)/10 = 98
(1,100,000,000,000,000,000,000-1000)/100 = 10,999,999,999,999,999,990
10,999,999,999,999,999,990 + 98 +25
10,999,999,999,999,999,990 + 123

11,000,000,000,000,000,113
This is your base spell craft DC. Make it into a reasonably learnable Spell

2. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

-20 by paying 20,000 XP,
-200 by taking 100 days,
-1900 by having 100 people contribute an epic level spell slot,
If cast by a CL 100 caster, give yourself 200d6 backlash, for a total of -200.
...
That's basically it.
People complain about epic spells so much, but there isn't THAT much to work with. It's really easy to talk about theory, but practise.... well.

3. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

11,000,000,000,000,000,113
This is your base spell craft DC. Make it into a reasonably learnable Spell
Try making is a couple of chunks at a time, this is ridiculous.

4. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

The point of this thread is to make a point. Epic is not as broken as it could be. :P

5. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

Is the point of this spell to create a planet, or animate the planet?

6. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

Seed - Animate

What do you think?

7. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

Let's see. . .

Alright. First, you want to manipulate the base seed a bit more than that.

Base: 25

Change to area: 20-foot burst: +10

Radius of the earth is just under 4,000 miles.

A mile is 5280 feet.

The first mile, then, costs 5260 extra feet, or +526 DC. Each additional mile costs +528 DC.

We also need to extend the range to equal the diameter of the earth, or about 8k miles. Each mile is 17.6 times the 300' base range, so +140,800 DC for range.

The DC is now 2,252,833. We've cut it down several orders of magnitude already.

Now we tack on some positive factors. Let's get the DC to 2,254,999; that gives us 2,166 in DC to play with. We'll give the planet a thousand hit dice; that means we have to add 968, giving us 234 more DC to spend.

Now let's tack on the Fortify and Compel seeds. Compel we just need the base seed for (DC 19).

Fortify, we want to buff up this thing. Let's give it an int score (DC 27); we have 188 more DC to spend. Let's spend 116 of that on this thing's int, giving it an int score of 30. We have 72 more to spend; we'll use the Fortify seed twice more (DC 34; 38 left to spend). We'll divide that between it's Wisdom and Charisma scores; we can give it Wis 10, Cha 11, up from one. We can skip this part if we're going to have to follow the Inherent Bonus rules for animating an object with higher stats; we just get a mindless animated planet, as opposed to a genius.

Now we make it Permanent. DC 11,274,995.

Mitigating this is simple.

First, you bump the casting time up to 11 minutes, reducing the DC to 11,274,975. I'd suggest 100 days, but that might deter potential ritual casters.

Then you burn 20k EXP; this shaves 200 off the DC. You'll make it back quickly; don't worry about it. You have it down at a manageable 11,274,775 now.

Even 1d6 of backlash damage is a guaranteed fatality, with a permanent duration. Don't use it.

So, you just have Rituals to look at. You just need the population of a good-sized country to all gain the ability to cast spells. Alternately, you do this as an epic psionic power, where you're a telepath, and you just Mind Seed a whole bunch of people (or animals) into becoming ritual casters for you.

Alternately, call in creatures that can cast really well. Coatls, Solars, whatever.

8. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

Originally Posted by I_Got_This_Name
Let's see. . .

Alright. First, you want to manipulate the base seed a bit more than that.

Base: 25

Change to area: 20-foot burst: +10

Radius of the earth is just under 4,000 miles.

A mile is 5280 feet.

The first mile, then, costs 5260 extra feet, or +526 DC. Each additional mile costs +528 DC.

We also need to extend the range to equal the diameter of the earth, or about 8k miles. Each mile is 17.6 times the 300' base range, so +140,800 DC for range.

The DC is now 2,252,833. We've cut it down several orders of magnitude already.

Now we tack on some positive factors. Let's get the DC to 2,254,999; that gives us 2,166 in DC to play with. We'll give the planet a thousand hit dice; that means we have to add 968, giving us 234 more DC to spend.

Now let's tack on the Fortify and Compel seeds. Compel we just need the base seed for (DC 19).

Fortify, we want to buff up this thing. Let's give it an int score (DC 27); we have 188 more DC to spend. Let's spend 116 of that on this thing's int, giving it an int score of 30. We have 72 more to spend; we'll use the Fortify seed twice more (DC 34; 38 left to spend). We'll divide that between it's Wisdom and Charisma scores; we can give it Wis 10, Cha 11, up from one. We can skip this part if we're going to have to follow the Inherent Bonus rules for animating an object with higher stats; we just get a mindless animated planet, as opposed to a genius.

Now we make it Permanent. DC 11,274,995.

Mitigating this is simple.

First, you bump the casting time up to 11 minutes, reducing the DC to 11,274,975. I'd suggest 100 days, but that might deter potential ritual casters.

Then you burn 20k EXP; this shaves 200 off the DC. You'll make it back quickly; don't worry about it. You have it down at a manageable 11,274,775 now.

Even 1d6 of backlash damage is a guaranteed fatality, with a permanent duration. Don't use it.

So, you just have Rituals to look at. You just need the population of a good-sized country to all gain the ability to cast spells. Alternately, you do this as an epic psionic power, where you're a telepath, and you just Mind Seed a whole bunch of people (or animals) into becoming ritual casters for you.

Alternately, call in creatures that can cast really well. Coatls, Solars, whatever.
gah? Does changing the area like that even work? It seems to me your just trying to animate the surface area of the planet, or am I reading things wrong?

9. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

Originally Posted by Gralamin Shieldheart
11,000,000,000,000,000,113
This is your base spell craft DC. Make it into a reasonably learnable Spell
11,000,000,000,000,000,113
All right, I need 647,058,823,529,411,772 9th level spell slots to mitigate.

I have a Wizard. All spells have a final spellcraft DC 0 (unless the DM sets a minimum DC) and so have no research time or cost.

He doesn't start with that spell straightaway. Using the method I outlined in a thread on the rules forums, he arranges to have 64 Called Couatls under his command at all times (warm up time: 20 days, maintinable indefinately; we only need 40 of them, for a 12 day warmup time, if we're in a hurry). He then starts Permanently Summoning Solars (Base DC 14, +42 for CR 23, *5 Permanent, DC 280 before Mitigation - and with 64 Couatls, we can get a mitigation of -448, so DC 0, unless the DM sets some minimum), twice per day. Each Solar Summoned Permanently can give him 9th level spell slots for later castings (more than he has Epic slots each day), at a mitigation factor of -17 each. After nine days (18 Solars Permanently Summoned, -306 in mitigation factors), we can safely drop the Couatls. After another eight days (16 more Solars, 34 total; note that we're on day 37), we research a new Epic spell (again, DC 0) that Permanently Summons two Solars (DC 560, I think, but with 34 Solars, he has -578 from extra spell slots, so it's DC 0). Thereafter, he's getting 4 Solars a day (two castings, two Solars each time). After four days (day 41), he has 16 more solars, for a total of 50 (which provide a mitigation factor of -850). At this point, he researches another DC 0 Epic spell, which Permanently Summons three Solars (DC 840, I think, before mitigation - but we can mitigate up to DC 850 down to 0, just with spell slots, so....). Which he then switches over to. So he now gets 6 Solars a day. Three days later (day 44), he has 18 more Solars, for a total of 68 (which provide a mitigation factor of -1156). You can see where I'm going with this.

Putting some nifties into a spreadsheet, He's making the target mitigation DC on day 366, with 6.47756*10^17 Solars, providing a mitigation DC of 1.10118*10^19. At which point, he can mitigate the base DC down to 0.

At all points, he's reasonably well protected (army of Called or Summoned critters, still has some spell slots to use in personal defense, not that he's adventuring).

Note that researching the base spell would take 1.98*10^18 days, without mitigation factors. In a little over a year of dedicated work, he can arrange to do so, for no GP or XP cost.

Enough cheese?

10. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

^ You sir are a Genius of Cheese. You win an animated planet, Possibly two.

Edit: This Thread is now open to other epic spell challenges, Let any who think they can best The cheese of Jack try their best.

11. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

Originally Posted by Gralamin Shieldheart
The point of this thread is to make a point. Epic is not as broken as it could be. *:P
Your point is that an epic mortal caster has a degree of difficulty animating the Planet Earth? I'd almost call that attacking a straw man, but with Jack_Smith showing us that yes, after exactly one year and one day, you can animate a world, the point may become lost.

Speaking of which, are there actually 6.47756*10^17 Solars in the universe? Because that's a lot of Solars.

12. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

Exponential growth is like that.

Fun facts with that method:

He's doing this at CL 21. The Solars are CR 23. He's got a neigh-infinite army under his absolute command who's members are individually tougher than he is.

He'll still have the Solars. They are Permanent, after all. He can do whatever with them after. Kill a troublesome diety? No sweat. Just another DC 0 Epic spell (although pre-emptive strikes might be an issue). What are the saves and SR of a rank 20 diety? Should be within range of an Epic spell with a mere million in mitigation, even having to find the diety through a Mind Blank in the first place. With the same spell.

Of course, the assorted dieties might take offense at you stripping them of the armies they use to hold off the abyss........

13. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

Your point is that an epic mortal caster has a degree of difficulty animating the Planet Earth? I'd almost call that attacking a straw man, but with Jack_Smith showing us that yes, after exactly one year and one day, you can animate a world, the point may become lost.

Speaking of which, are there actually 6.47756*10^17 Solars in the universe? Because that's a lot of Solars.
This is the first thing that came to me, and I caused two people to give up, I see that as impressive.

14. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

Speaking of which, are there actually 6.47756*10^17 Solars in the universe? Because that's a lot of Solars.
I don't know, how many solars can you fit into infinity?

15. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

Originally Posted by Beleriphon, now with more Jar

I don't know, how many solars can you fit into infinity?
Which infinity are you talking about? The &quot;Great Wheel&quot; infinity, the &quot;Far Realm&quot; infinity (which is larger), or the &quot;Celestia&quot; infinity (which is tiny)? ;)

16. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

Now that is just ridiculous. To inject just a teensy bit of verisimultude, even considering that there simply aren't six trillion Solars in all of the heavens, there is no possible way that any celestial power would let you summon that many angels permanently. There is a war going on, you know.

17. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

even if that many exist, where will you stick them all? i mean how many pin heads can 6.47756*10^17 solars dance on?

18. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

Interesting!
Each Solar requires a 10x10x10 foot space of its own. That's 10 to the third cubic feet.

We tack that onto how many Solars we've got...

(6.47756*10^17 * 10^3) gets us to
6.47756*10^20 cubic feet.

So the Solars you'd need to pull this off take up half the volume of the planet you're trying to animate!

You're going to need an off-planet staging platform for your spellcasting.

19. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree about the Solars...I'm unconvinced that the hosts of heaven really have anywhere near 10^17 generals. I mean, on a campaign world with the earth's population, that would be enough to have 15 million dedicated guardian Solars for every single person, with about 10^15 left for fighting cosmic battles, being heavenly middle managers, and whatever else it is that Solars do with their time.

Any way to do this without summoning more of a type of monster than might plausibly exist?

20. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

Well... first I craft the Epic Spell: Dominate Pun Pun, which turns PunPun into my willing slave...

21. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

Originally Posted by belboz
Any way to do this without summoning more of a type of monster than might plausibly exist?
Well, if you're an Elan Wizard 23+ / Elan Cleric 23+ with Ignore Material Compoinents, Epic Spellcasting, and a Rod of Excellent Magic, you can do the same thing (although it takes longer) by making Simulacrums of yourself, 1/day, free of charge, and then getting the spell slots from your (many) simulacrums (Cleric duplicates it with Miracle).

At 23rd, your Simulacrum of you has 11 or 12 class levels (depending on rounding) good for a 6th level spell slot. You need 1,000,000,000,000,000,011 of them before you can mitigate all the way down to 0 just with extra spells. This will, of course, take you 1,000,000,000,000,000,011 days, which is about 2,739,726,027,397,260.3 years, or you know, long enough for the planet to animate itself. Or turn to dust. Or destabilize due to individual electrons decaying. Or whatever. Which is why you picked an Elan - they very specifically have Maximium Age: n/a.

Originally Posted by Larrin
even if that many exist, where will you stick them all? i mean how many pin heads can 6.47756*10^17 solars dance on?
They can fly, they don't need to sleep, and they don't need to eat. Okay, breathing might be an issue...... but you should be able to rig another DC 0 Epic spell by the time it becomes important..... could delay you a couple of days, though.

22. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

So basically you're admitting that your &quot;solution&quot; is even more ridiculous than the original problem? 1 trillion 6th-level spells, I ask you...

23. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

Originally Posted by Caelestion
So basically you're admitting that your &quot;solution&quot; is even more ridiculous than the original problem? 1 trillion 6th-level spells, I ask you...
Hey now! The title of the thread includes the line &quot;Calling all Munchkins&quot;, and the OP basicallys asks for a method to mitigate a truly rediculous DC. Did you expect a non-rediculous answer? I freely admit that my solutions to the problem are absurd. But so's the original problem.

Oh, and I think your looking for Quintillion or Hextillion (depending on which side of the pond you're on). Not that at those levels a few orders of magnitude matters much.....

24. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

Well, the British billion used to be 12 zeroes and the British trillion 18 zeroes. *However, it seems that the insidious American system is replacing our own!

25. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

Regarding my reduction: Basically, I created a spell that permanently animates an object filling an area of 4,000 miles, centered on the center of the earth. This animates the entire planet. It also gives it 1,000 hit dice, and, possibly, decent mental stats, too.

Of course, you need line of effect to the center. But when you're mitigating a DC down from the millions, digging a hole to the center of the earth is only a minor problem.

You can do the solars. That's one way.

Another is to be a Tainted Sorcerer, and carry a Rod of Excellent Magic; you can use it to pump out Simulacra of yourself, albeit at a lower level, at no cost.

A third is to be a telepath, and Mind Seeding any one you can touch to serve as ritual casters for you. They want to animate the planet just as much as you do. Use a Thought Bottle and a Rod of Excellent Psionics to save on EXP costs for this.

26. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

I'd imagine that this'd be much easier with truenames.

What's the CR of an Earth anyway? Sure, it's Collossal++, but it can do the same amount of damage as a Toad can. We'll move it up a few fractions just because of it's shear HP. How does 1/2 sound? Hmm... base of 10 + CR x 2 = 11.

(Note: Completely made up and arbitrary.)

27. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

Locations are always DC 20, IIRC.

28. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

I dont really want to get into the building of an epic spell, but I agree about the solar thing. But what if you could use a similar method without solars.

Say, built an epic spell that created a creature that was Fine, and could cast 9th level spells. You could concievable have the creature be able to fly, or just pile them up, and fit the ridiculous number of them in a much smaller area. The same technique would apply for creating them, then doubling the amount as with solars. Only there would be no issue with 'where are all these things coming from anyway' because you would be creating them.

29. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

Without using other patently ridiculous cheese to lower the DC on their creation spell, the DC to create such a creature would be huge!

30. ## Re: Calling all Munchkins: Epic Spell Challenge

Originally Posted by Caelestion
Without using other patently ridiculous cheese to lower the DC on their creation spell, the DC to create such a creature would be huge!
Just spend a few years in your one Material second = 1 year demiplane made by your Genesis spell.

#### Posting Permissions

• You may not post new threads
• You may not post replies
• You may not post attachments
• You may not edit your posts
•