Mesopotamia -esque Campaign Setting

[Ovaltine Patrol]

I was going more by the arms and equipment guide's description of alternate materials and not on any kind of knowledge of history or metallurgy.

[Another_Poet]

@ Ovaltine: No problem, and in general I would do the same. In a Bronze Age setting however you need to do a little re-working, because D&D is presumed to use iron/steel so bronze has to be inferior. If there is no (or almost no) iron/steel then it's easier just to treat bronze as status quo and adjust the other, less common stuff.

@Thrane: Chariot rules are great! I'm confused about the Heavy chariot having lower trample damage though; it weighs more and has more hooves trampling the ground. Is the 1d8 a typo? Given the penalties to the piloting DC's one of these I would definitely make the damage worthwhile.

Also, a sickle wheel is essentially a hit by at least 4 swords, so it should do at least 4 extra dice of slashing damage on all chariot models, rather than just doubling trample damage. I would say it adds 4d6 slashing to light, 4d8 slashing to heavy, and 6d6 slashing to four-wheeled, but with the following penalties:

-All Charioteer DC's increase by 5 when sickle wheels are equipped
-Speed drops by 20 feet/round when sickle wheels are equipped.

Also, how about allowing a very difficult Charioteer check to pilot a chariot through difficult terrain? Liek DC 30? And even on a success, movement drops to 1/4 of normal.

Really good rules though. Armour bonus and "counts as mounted and not mounted" are perfect.

[Thane of Fife]

I'm confused about the Heavy chariot having lower trample damage though; it weighs more and has more hooves trampling the ground. Is the 1d8 a typo? Given the penalties to the piloting DC's one of these I would definitely make the damage worthwhile.

I assume that you mean the 4-wheeled chariot? That chariot isn't really intended to be a 'super-heavy' chariot, but rather a vaguely outdated 'bad' chariot. What I read suggested that early chariots were 4-wheeled and were used for transporting soldiers about the battlefield. The later chariots - the light and heavy ones - are intended to be actual war chariots. As such, I kept the damage low on the 4-wheeled one to discourage its use in an unrealistic sense (though I could probably raise it slightly in view of the low speed such a chariot will be restricted to).

Also, a sickle wheel is essentially a hit by at least 4 swords, so it should do at least 4 extra dice of slashing damage on all chariot models, rather than just doubling trample damage. I would say it adds 4d6 slashing to light, 4d8 slashing to heavy, and 6d6 slashing to four-wheeled, but with the following penalties:

-All Charioteer DC's increase by 5 when sickle wheels are equipped
-Speed drops by 20 feet/round when sickle wheels are equipped.

Those sound like it could be a bit high - most people probably wouldn't be hit by all of the blades. On top of which, that would probably more than triple damage, which seems a bit much.

Something I just found suggests that most ancient scythed chariots were actually pulled by four horses, which I should probably include (perhaps allow a heavy chariot pulled by 4 beasts to operate at full speed, instead of 80%?).

Also, how about allowing a very difficult Charioteer check to pilot a chariot through difficult terrain? Liek DC 30? And even on a success, movement drops to 1/4 of normal.

Hold her Steady allows movement through some difficult terrain, so I assume that you mean really difficult stuff, like forests and mountainous? That's probably reasonable.

[Another_Poet]

Yeah, I did mean 4-wheel, sorry.

As far as the sickle damage, 4 dice is a lot of damage but if you account for the lower speed the save DC for half becomes ridiculously easy. So it'd be like 5x damage but almost always halved. 2.5x damage seems reasonable being put through a mulcher while being trampled.

Still, your way works too. It sounds like you have all your bases covered. I really love these chariot rules.

[Ovaltine Patrol]

Eternal Rome of Green Ronin Publishing's Mythic Vistas series has some rules for chariots, especially as used in gladiatorial combat. Another book in the series, Testament probably has all kinds of useful material for a Mesopotamian setting, but I haven't had the opportunity to look at that one.

[Thane of Fife]

This is mostly a bump.

As far as the sickle damage, 4 dice is a lot of damage but if you account for the lower speed the save DC for half becomes ridiculously easy. So it'd be like 5x damage but almost always halved. 2.5x damage seems reasonable being put through a mulcher while being trampled.

Still, your way works too. It sounds like you have all your bases covered. I really love these chariot rules.

Thanks, for one thing. The save for half would get staggeringly easy, but it is still a huge amount of damage (for low levels). I'm beginning to think that you're right in making it a flat dice roll, though.


I am also beginning to do some work on Faith and Rage.

I have not done an in-depth comparison between these uses and the Pathfinder ones (though the Pathfinder ones look a bit weak to me - 4 points/round for DR 1/-?), and so these should be taken as preliminary, and I think that they're terribly balanced.

A character is considered Devout, Not Devout, or Upsetting to his faith. This is generally based on whether he's praying, sacrificing, not blaspheming, and so on. Different faiths will have different requirements.

Fighters, Rogues, Rangers, and Scouts all get Faith Points. Barbarians get either Rage points or Faith Points, but not both (though they can switch between them over time). Priests, Prophets, and (maybe) Hierodules do not get Faith Points, as they get spells instead. Despite this, they can still be given points by a Hierodule.

A Devout character gets 6 points at first level, and 4 at each level after that. A Not Devout character gets half that, and an Upsetting character gets none. Note that these are behaviors, not types of characters (i.e. Your behavior decides how you qualify each day).

Rage points are spent as per Pathfinder (at the moment, anyway, and that hopefully won't change). Faith is spent as follows:

2 points to reroll a failed saving throw.
4 points to reroll a failed attack roll.
2 points to regain 1d8 hp as an immediate action
2 points to use a Ritual / level of the Ritual. These points are then tied up until the Ritual is unleashed.
Other Stuff for which I need suggestions.

That would work basically parallel to how barbarians run. I am also considering handing out fewer points, but restoring them more frequently (which would make Rituals a bigger deal). Monsters and such will also usually get points of some kind (mostly to keep the Hierodule from being useless when up against monsters).

[Another_Poet]

Here are some initial thoughts.

First of all, good idea giving monsters some kind of points. I would just give a set number of Rage points to animals, magical beasts, undead and maybe aberrations. I would give a set number of Faith points to Outsiders, and I would apply the PC faith/rage rules by class to giants and monstrous humanoids. I don't think I'd give any points to oozes or vermin. For constructs I'd either give them nothing or have it depend on the creator, i.e. the creator can "seal" a set number of his/her own faith/rage points inside the construct at creation.

Having the Devout, Nondevout and Upsetting behaviour determined daily seems problematic. I mean, if I crap on a deity's altar Thursday I don't expect to be considered devout Friday no matter what actions I take.

I would suggest something like this: give every character a pool of Faith points. Maybe start it at 10 points, since 10 is the average human ability score for any given ability. Based on behaviour, characters can raise or lower this ability over time. Their basic 10 points refresh every day, but if they make lots of sacrifices for a lonmg time they might get bumped up to 12 or so. If they go on a mission for a temple they might get bumped up to 13 or 14. Slaying a demon that was terrorising the land could raise them to 16. But then they go and attack an enemy while in the sacred confines of a temple, and maybe it drops to 15. They pursue said enemy to a place that has been ritually defiled, and because they're in a hurry they don't bother to purify it before moving on. Boom, down to 14.

This way actions still impact Faith points, and Faith points still refresh daily, but one has to work hard at being devout before one gets a bigger pool of Faith points. I assume it would be easier to fall down toward Upsetting than it would be to rise up toward Devout.

A Faith score of 10-11 would be considered Non-Devout. Higher would be Devout and lower would be Upsetting.

A barbarian gets Rage points by giving into his animal side. His behaviour and personality become animalistic, even bestial. It's not that he's evil, it's that he no longer fits into human society well at all. Thus, he loses the ability to use Faith points but gains Rage points from his beast-like energy and instincts. This is a perfect cognate to Enkidu, and just like Enkidu the act of communing with a god could cause the barbarian to regain Faith points but lose bestial powers. Of course in most D&D games "communing with a god" probably won't mean "one full week of nonstop sex" like it did for Enkidu. But still, you get the point.

If you wanted to make Faith points more scarce, you could use the same "ability modifier" system the other 6 abilities use. So, for instance, a Non-Devout person with a score of 11 gets 0 Faith points per day. A Devout person with a score of 16 gets 3 points per day. An Upsetting person with a score of 6 gets -2 points per day, which (to be cruel) could be something the DM can invoke as "bad luck" one time per day for every -1 point. To be nicer, it could have no effect on its own but would count against Faith points granted by a Hierodule. So if the Hierodule gave 6 Faith points to the Upsetting character with a Faith score of 6, he'd have to immediately subtract his -2 modifier and end up with only 4 Faith points. That seems fairly balanced.

owever you do the points, one problem remains. As it stands Devout characters get lots of rewards whereas Upsetting characters get lots of suck. That seems fine moralistically, but it's bad for game balance and fun. People like to play antiheroes.

The solution? Demonic disciples. I'm using the term "demonic" here in the way it's usually used when applied to ancient myths: powerful monsters who are basically the same as gods themselves, but who for whatever reason are at odds with the gods (or are too wild and chaotic to be considered gods). So the Titans, for instance, or Humbaba. Thus I don't mean "demons" in a Christian sense as "evil and wanting to steal your soul".

When a character reaches a low enough Faith score, it may attract the attentions of these demon-monsters. They may come to challenge the individual, or to befriend the individual, or to grant special powers. They may ask for the individual's help in some task. So the Upsetting characters can still get cool supernatural powers/quests/items just like the Devout characters.

Of course these demons are not quite as strong as gods, and far more dangerous to deal with - but they're also bound to be much more interesting. So I think it would balance out.

2 points to reroll a failed saving throw.
4 points to reroll a failed attack roll.
2 points to regain 1d8 hp as an immediate action
2 points to use a Ritual / level of the Ritual. These points are then tied up until the Ritual is unleashed.
Other Stuff for which I need suggestions.

I don't get why an attack roll costs more than a saving throw. I'd switch those two. The healing seems a little underpriced - if it was a standard action maybe it'd be in line with the others. I don't know what your Rituals can do so I can't comment on that.

I will say though, the pricing depends almost entirely on how many points people get. If a 1st level character can get 10/day, then rerolling a save should cost somewhere between 8 and 15 rage points. If a 1st level character can only get, say, 2/day then the prices seem basically alright as they are.

ap

[LucyHarris]

Wow. I just read this entire thread and I have to say, I am really intrigued by this. I can't wait to see what more you come up with for this (heck, already want to play a Hierodule).

[Thane of Fife]

I would just give a set number of Rage points to animals, magical beasts, undead and maybe aberrations. I would give a set number of Faith points to Outsiders, and I would apply the PC faith/rage rules by class to giants and monstrous humanoids. I don't think I'd give any points to oozes or vermin. For constructs I'd either give them nothing or have it depend on the creator, i.e. the creator can "seal" a set number of his/her own faith/rage points inside the construct at creation.

That sounds similar to what I was planning, though I admit I'd not thought of Oozes, vermin, or constructs (constructs are another group of monsters OI'm not entirely certain of maintaining, though - I'd rather have statue guardians that turn into living creatures. Probably Outsiders.)

Having the Devout, Nondevout and Upsetting behaviour determined daily seems problematic. I mean, if I crap on a deity's altar Thursday I don't expect to be considered devout Friday no matter what actions I take.

It wouldn't change that easily - I should have said that they regenerate their points each day according to their status.

I would suggest something like this: give every character a pool of Faith points. Maybe start it at 10 points, since 10 is the average human ability score for any given ability. Based on behaviour, characters can raise or lower this ability over time. Their basic 10 points refresh every day, but if they make lots of sacrifices for a lonmg time they might get bumped up to 12 or so. If they go on a mission for a temple they might get bumped up to 13 or 14. Slaying a demon that was terrorising the land could raise them to 16. But then they go and attack an enemy while in the sacred confines of a temple, and maybe it drops to 15. They pursue said enemy to a place that has been ritually defiled, and because they're in a hurry they don't bother to purify it before moving on. Boom, down to 14.

This way actions still impact Faith points, and Faith points still refresh daily, but one has to work hard at being devout before one gets a bigger pool of Faith points. I assume it would be easier to fall down toward Upsetting than it would be to rise up toward Devout.

A Faith score of 10-11 would be considered Non-Devout. Higher would be Devout and lower would be Upsetting.

That sounds pretty good, actually, and I might use that instead. Although I might say that your Faith score determines how many points you get, rather than setting them completely equal - otherwise, the barbarian would rapidly get far more Rage points than other characters could hope for, though that could be a good thing. Make Rage less powerful but usable more often, or something. I don't know.

A barbarian gets Rage points by giving into his animal side. His behaviour and personality become animalistic, even bestial. It's not that he's evil, it's that he no longer fits into human society well at all. Thus, he loses the ability to use Faith points but gains Rage points from his beast-like energy and instincts. This is a perfect cognate to Enkidu, and just like Enkidu the act of communing with a god could cause the barbarian to regain Faith points but lose bestial powers. Of course in most D&D games "communing with a god" probably won't mean "one full week of nonstop sex" like it did for Enkidu. But still, you get the point.

This is pretty much exactly what I was going for. Something I've been considering is making it so that, if a Hierodule feeds a creature with Rage points Faith, he actually loses Rage until he hits 0, then begins to gain Faith. Which would support that whole Hierodules soothing the wild man bit.

If you wanted to make Faith points more scarce, you could use the same "ability modifier" system the other 6 abilities use. So, for instance, a Non-Devout person with a score of 11 gets 0 Faith points per day. A Devout person with a score of 16 gets 3 points per day. An Upsetting person with a score of 6 gets -2 points per day, which (to be cruel) could be something the DM can invoke as "bad luck" one time per day for every -1 point. To be nicer, it could have no effect on its own but would count against Faith points granted by a Hierodule. So if the Hierodule gave 6 Faith points to the Upsetting character with a Faith score of 6, he'd have to immediately subtract his -2 modifier and end up with only 4 Faith points. That seems fairly balanced.

That's also an interesting idea. Perhaps make it modifier points / level? I want Faith to be something which is used frequently - it shouldn't be like Action Points where it only gets used when you're in trouble. One way to do that is to make it replenish per combat. That messes up the Healing bit, though....

owever you do the points, one problem remains. As it stands Devout characters get lots of rewards whereas Upsetting characters get lots of suck. That seems fine moralistically, but it's bad for game balance and fun. People like to play antiheroes.

The solution? Demonic disciples. I'm using the term "demonic" here in the way it's usually used when applied to ancient myths: powerful monsters who are basically the same as gods themselves, but who for whatever reason are at odds with the gods (or are too wild and chaotic to be considered gods). So the Titans, for instance, or Humbaba. Thus I don't mean "demons" in a Christian sense as "evil and wanting to steal your soul".

When a character reaches a low enough Faith score, it may attract the attentions of these demon-monsters. They may come to challenge the individual, or to befriend the individual, or to grant special powers. They may ask for the individual's help in some task. So the Upsetting characters can still get cool supernatural powers/quests/items just like the Devout characters.

Of course these demons are not quite as strong as gods, and far more dangerous to deal with - but they're also bound to be much more interesting. So I think it would balance out.

Hmm. I can see what you mean, but it seems a bit... wrong, I suppose. I feel like angering the gods should be a distinctly bad idea. But no, I suppose I can see what you mean. Something to consider, perhaps, is that there will be multiple religions, each with different behaviors required for Devoutness. I could probably make one for demons.

I don't get why an attack roll costs more than a saving throw. I'd switch those two. The healing seems a little underpriced - if it was a standard action maybe it'd be in line with the others. I don't know what your Rituals can do so I can't comment on that.

I'm not really sure why I've got the Attack Roll as more expensive - it made sense when I wrote it. I'm not sure about the healing. That one's probably the most dependent on how many points people get.

Rituals are like spells available to anyone. For example, anybody can cast a Protection from Evil spell from a tablet or whatever, which will tie up 2 of their Faith points until they 'cast' it. The main idea is to give everybody some access to warding magic, as everything I've read suggests that it was a moderately big part of Mesopotamian life. Priests and Hierodules would probably get increased access to them, as parts of established temples.

They could probably stand to be more expensive points-wise.

Wow. I just read this entire thread and I have to say, I am really intrigued by this. I can't wait to see what more you come up with for this (heck, already want to play a Hierodule).

Thanks! It's good to know that people are finding it interesting.

[Another_Poet]

Something I've been considering is making it so that, if a Hierodule feeds a creature with Rage points Faith, he actually loses Rage until he hits 0, then begins to gain Faith. Which would support that whole Hierodules soothing the wild man bit.

That is badass.

Hmm. I can see what you mean, but it seems a bit... wrong, I suppose. I feel like angering the gods should be a distinctly bad idea. But no, I suppose I can see what you mean. Something to consider, perhaps, is that there will be multiple religions, each with different behaviors required for Devoutness. I could probably make one for demons.

Yeah, it would have to be done just right to have the right feel. Here are some suggestions:

-Use "demigods" "titans" or even "beasts of the gods" instead of "demons". That should snap people out of Christian Hell Demon mode.
-Make it clear that the benefits of working with these beings are powerful, but temporary. You seek out the Stone Giant of the Eastern Sea and agree to take his place as watchman at the door of death for 1 week? Great, his power is yours to use... until he takes it back...
-Also make it clear that you still don't want to actively piss off the gods. The gods outrank your divine beast friends and WILL shut you down if you screw up enough. Having a low devoutness score and working with the (often not evil) demigods is fine, but burning the gods' temples will still come with consequences.

I think what it comes down to is offering a highly Chaotic source of benefits for the non-devout, rather than offering an Evil source of benefits. A lot of people are non-devout just because they don't like rules or don't play well with others, and those are your classic antiheroes.

I know this is pretty vague and doesn't contain any mechanics. I'll try to think of something more usable and post it.

[Antariuk]

Hello,

I have just registered on this board because im totally with this thread. Many great ideas appeared in here, but one (in my eyes) very important part of mesopotamian culture is missing: cuneiform writing.

It is not just a cheap replacement for the nordic runes or any other fantasy letters, but so much more if you think of magical effects. And it gives a bit more kick to the setting as not every character class should be able to read and write, because that ability was preserved to priests, nobles and administrators in the ancient mesopotamian cultures. So a priest/mage class in the party would be useful not only in dealing with casting spells and healing people but also in dealing with contracts, inscriptions and all forms of written word.

Other spontaneous ideas I have:

- Waterways. Huge parts of the country are only fertile if they are interspersed with waterways. So there are villages and services dedicated to the preservation and repair of barrages and waterways. There would also be abandoned fields that have become salty and unfertile through heavy exhaustion - perhaps there is an old ruined city nearby the party wants to discover? (salty fields may be useful as an indicator for the presence of old human settlements)

- Tablets of Destiny: at least this is a setting they really belong to! Possibilities are endless to use them in a campaign, but presumably a god like Marduk, Enki (or Ea, as his babylonian name was mentioned here before) or Ishtar will appear :)

- speaking of Enki, perhaps there is an conflict you want to add in that setting: Abzu (the home of Enki after he killed the god Abzu) and Tiamat as the principles of sweet and salty water, the new and the old world, civilization against wilderness. Depends on how exactly you want to add mythological progress in that world, but if Tiamat was not slaughtered by Marduk and used to create the material world, perhaps she ist still there deep in the ocean as a nemesis of the younger gods, that frequently create demons?

- Nomads. Nomadic tribes would be great as a constant threat to smaller settlements and perhaps as traders, if they are not that hostile. But it would be great to design their culture as an opposite to the mesopotamians, because thats is how it actually was.

[Thane of Fife]

I have just registered on this board because im totally with this thread.

Well, then, welcome to the Forum (and the thread). It's good to have you.
Tremble in fear, Hourglass of Zihaja - soon we will have so many followers that even you will be unable to stand before us! Muahahahahahahahaha....

cuneiform writing.

It is not just a cheap replacement for the nordic runes or any other fantasy letters, but so much more if you think of magical effects. And it gives a bit more kick to the setting as not every character class should be able to read and write, because that ability was preserved to priests, nobles and administrators in the ancient mesopotamian cultures. So a priest/mage class in the party would be useful not only in dealing with casting spells and healing people but also in dealing with contracts, inscriptions and all forms of written word.

While I totally see where you're coming from, and tend to lean towards PC illiteracy in games I run, most settings assume vastly higher literacy rates than was historically reasonable. I'm not sure why this is.

Waterways. Huge parts of the country are only fertile if they are interspersed with waterways. So there are villages and services dedicated to the preservation and repair of barrages and waterways. There would also be abandoned fields that have become salty and unfertile through heavy exhaustion - perhaps there is an old ruined city nearby the party wants to discover? (salty fields may be useful as an indicator for the presence of old human settlements)

That sounds reasonable.

Tablets of Destiny: at least this is a setting they really belong to! Possibilities are endless to use them in a campaign, but presumably a god like Marduk, Enki (or Ea, as his babylonian name was mentioned here before) or Ishtar will appear :)

I'm unclear on what you're referring to, though it sounds promising. Please elaborate.

Abzu (the home of Enki after he killed the god Abzu) and Tiamat as the principles of sweet and salty water, the new and the old world, civilization against wilderness.

It is certainly something that I have been considering. This could probably tie in with the non-god worship Another Poet is speaking of.

Nomads. Nomadic tribes would be great as a constant threat to smaller settlements and perhaps as traders, if they are not that hostile. But it would be great to design their culture as an opposite to the mesopotamians, because thats is how it actually was.

That could make an interesting addition, though I'd need to think on how to include them.

I think what it comes down to is offering a highly Chaotic source of benefits for the non-devout, rather than offering an Evil source of benefits. A lot of people are non-devout just because they don't like rules or don't play well with others, and those are your classic antiheroes.

Thinking of them as Chaotic rather than Evil helps a lot.

Hmm. So much to think about. Also: I'm still looking for a name. All I can think of at the moment is Between Two Rivers, and I'm not tremendously fond of that.

[Another_Poet]

Welcome Antariuk and may I just say that's a bunch of great ideas!!

On literacy here is an idea that I have. I've never liked only making casters &c literate because they're already so powerful. So here is an attempt to balance the scales.

Literacy: All characters (except barbarians and commoners) are literate in one of two alphabets: cuneiform or hierogplyhic. Some languages (X, Y and Z) write in cuneiform, and others (A, B, and C) write in hierogylphs. The automatic language that a character speaks determines which alphabet he or she can read. If a character has multiple automatic languages, he or she must choose one alphabet. No character begins literate in multiple alphabets.

Being literate allows a character to read and write basic messages or even great literature in their language. However, special religious texts and magical seals are not written in the common form of an alphabet. They are typically coded (stylised wedged, wedges stacked together oddly, cyphers applied, abstract hierogyphs, merged hieroglyphs, etc) and may be in an archaic form of the language. To read, and thus use a magical text like this a character must succeed on a Decipher Script check.

No character classes have Decipher Script as a class skill except priest, hierodule, and prophet (am I forgetting any casters here?). Decipher script cannot be used untrained.

However, one class (Rogue equivalent? Scholar type?) is specially trained in these ancient texts and can automatically succeed in deciphering them without making any check.

That's my suggestion. Everyone can read regular texts, magic/divine types can read magic/divin texts, and there's one special character who can do it all with ease -- who is not a full caster.

Also the mention of waterways reminded me of a creature from Dark Sun that would actualy fit this setting quite well. The Cistern Fiend is a wicked, dangerous monster that people intentionally introduce into their wells or aqueducts. Even though it is a man-eater its presence naturally purifies the water. People just keep their distance and it preys on vermin like rats and such instead. One of my favourites.

ap

Edit: On the name of the setting, for some reason I keep coming back to a word scramble.

Topomesamia (has a nice ring to it)

or

Potomesomia (reminds me of root word poto- meaning "water" "drink")

both appeal for some reason.

Otherwise the simple term Eridu (lit "home in the far-away" as I recall, it refers to the first settlements that cleared away the marshes for irrigation or to "the earth" "the world" generally. Fact check me before you quote me on that, but that's the general meaning as I recall.)

[Antariuk]

Well, then, welcome to the Forum (and the thread). It's good to have you.

Thanks.

While I totally see where you're coming from, and tend to lean towards PC illiteracy in games I run, most settings assume vastly higher literacy rates than was historically reasonable. I'm not sure why this is.

You are right, but in this setting? A fighter or rogue should barely have learned to read and to write, because cuneiform writing is very complex and to master this skill people had to be very clever (more than us actually :)), let alone the costs of a school and the time it needs for a kid to graduate.

That sounds reasonable.

Its also correct in historical matter... many long-living sumerian and babylonian cities had problems with salt on the fields around them, because they had no technique to prevent the fields from exhaustion through overstraining. Even today you can see salty fields (for example in Iraq) that remains from ancient agriculture.

I'm unclear on what you're referring to, though it sounds promising. Please elaborate.

The Tablets of Destiny (my translator gave me that, I don't know if there is a proper name for it) are, as their name says, tablets. In babylonian mythology they were given to Marduk after his victory over Tiamat, so he helds the destiny of the world and even the gods in his hands. What exactly they are about or what is written on them is unkown (as far as I know), but its likely to be the timeline of our world and the destiny of each one of us.

There is another thing comparable to them: the 100 me. They were Enkis holy symbols of might, but the same time they were special powers and abilites. Inanna played some tricks on Enki, made him drunk and stole his me only to gave them to the mortals in her city. That way mankind got acces to several powers as well as Inanna herself.
There are several legends of how mankind got self awareness and the powers that define a human, but I think this one is nice. Putting the players in a quest to return a lost me to a god or perhaps prevent that the gods remove a me from our world would be different from the usual save-the-world-quest.

That could make an interesting addition, though I'd need to think on how to include them.

I think there is not much work to do on including them, they are just there. They follow the ancient routes their ancestors explored, camping in the deserts, in the savannah and near rivers and lakes. They are suspicious for everyone grown up in a settlement and vice versa, but they can tell great stories from far away and perhaps the trade rare goods? Other times they might be aggressive, especially in the outer territories. I would fit them in two niches: traders and bandits, at the same time.

Hmm. So much to think about. Also: I'm still looking for a name. All I can think of at the moment is Between Two Rivers, and I'm not tremendously fond of that.

But thats a very good idea, as the two rivers define the basin were this culture is born. On the other hand, it depends on how correct this setting should be in relation to the real geographical and cultural past. Perhaps we have the gods and severals cultural features, but create a whole new continent?

[Antariuk]

Welcome Antariuk and may I just say that's a bunch of great ideas!!

Thanks for the nice welcome.

[I]Literacy: All characters (except barbarians and commoners) are literate in one of two alphabets: cuneiform or hierogplyhic. Some languages (X, Y and Z) write in cuneiform, and others (A, B, and C) write in hierogylphs. The automatic language that a character speaks determines which alphabet he or she can read. If a character has multiple automatic languages, he or she must choose one alphabet. No character begins literate in multiple alphabets.

Nice idea. I would give the hieroglyphs to ordinary people and leave the cuneiform for all educated ones, because cuneiform (as some say) was developed to save place on the writing tablets and to write faster - economical reasons (but not financial reasons als clay was available everywhere, unlike parchment or even paper). So normal people can perhaps writhe some hieroglyphs, lets think of some nice ritals like if a new house was build and they write important glyphs for luck and health on the doorsill.

[QUOTE=Another_Poet;5846008]That's my suggestion. Everyone can read regular texts, magic/divine types can read magic/divin texts, and there's one special character who can do it all with ease -- who is not a full caster.

Great idea, but wouldn't that make things very complicated (for a d20 game)?

Otherwise the simple term Eridu (lit "home in the far-away" as I recall, it refers to the first settlements that cleared away the marshes for irrigation or to "the earth" "the world" generally. Fact check me before you quote me on that, but that's the general meaning as I recall.)

I am totally with Eridu, that is a short term with a nice background. At least as a working title I think its perfect, but I would keep it all the way :)

[Another_Poet]

Great idea [on the levels of literacy], but wouldn't that make things very complicated (for a d20 game)?

I don't think so. It means everyone can read and write, which makes the game run smoothely. It means casters, and no one else, can make checks to read archaic texts of power, which is good flavour and follows the same mechanic (d20+skill ranks+ability modifier) as everything else. And it would mean that special scholars would be able to read it without any check at all, which is even easier. All you have to do is have the scholar class, if there is one, have this listed among its 1st level class abilities. Everything else you just follow the regular trained-only class skill rules for.

I am totally with Eridu, that is a short term with a nice background. At least as a working title I think its perfect, but I would keep it all the way :)

I think we should add something to it to make it a little more compelling, give it some imagery... options:

Wanderers of Eridu
Gods of Eridu
Eridu: in the Land of the Gods
Eridu: the First Heroes

If only I could think of something that means "adventurers" that starts with an e (or at least a vowel) we could have some nice alliteration. Explorers of Eridu would do it, but sounds kind of weak to me.


ap

[Thane of Fife]

You are right, but in this setting? A fighter or rogue should barely have learned to read and to write, because cuneiform writing is very complex and to master this skill people had to be very clever (more than us actually :)), let alone the costs of a school and the time it needs for a kid to graduate.

The problem is that fighters and rogues are already among the classes which I'm having trouble fitting into this setting - I don't want to make them even more boring (what I mean is that most Mesopotamian heroes would probably be priests, or maybe barbarians. There aren't many normal fighter types that I've seen).

Its also correct in historical matter... many long-living sumerian and babylonian cities had problems with salt on the fields around them, because they had no technique to prevent the fields from exhaustion through overstraining. Even today you can see salty fields (for example in Iraq) that remains from ancient agriculture.

Interesting. I did not know that.

There is another thing comparable to them: the 100 me. They were Enkis holy symbols of might, but the same time they were special powers and abilites. Inanna played some tricks on Enki, made him drunk and stole his me only to gave them to the mortals in her city. That way mankind got acces to several powers as well as Inanna herself.
There are several legends of how mankind got self awareness and the powers that define a human, but I think this one is nice. Putting the players in a quest to return a lost me to a god or perhaps prevent that the gods remove a me from our world would be different from the usual save-the-world-quest.

Looking into that further, it seems like we should be able to do something fascinating with that idea, but I'm having a hard time thinking what (though using them as Plot Hooks is certainly a reasonable option).

I think there is not much work to do on including them, they are just there. They follow the ancient routes their ancestors explored, camping in the deserts, in the savannah and near rivers and lakes. They are suspicious for everyone grown up in a settlement and vice versa, but they can tell great stories from far away and perhaps the trade rare goods? Other times they might be aggressive, especially in the outer territories. I would fit them in two niches: traders and bandits, at the same time.

I was more thinking about whether they should be represented by a new race, or whether they should simply be more humans.

On literacy here is an idea that I have. I've never liked only making casters &c literate because they're already so powerful. So here is an attempt to balance the scales.

An interesting idea. An article on the writing subject.

No character classes have Decipher Script as a class skill except priest, hierodule, and prophet (am I forgetting any casters here?). Decipher script cannot be used untrained.

However, one class (Rogue equivalent? Scholar type?) is specially trained in these ancient texts and can automatically succeed in deciphering them without making any check.

That's all the casters. On a scholar-type class, I would be inclined to either use Hierodules (who I am leaning towards not making full casters), or partially replacing rogues with experts and using them. I think that there was some famous Hierodule who did a lot of historical recording, but I can't find her at the moment.

I think we should add something to it to make it a little more compelling, give it some imagery... options:

Wanderers of Eridu
Gods of Eridu
Eridu: in the Land of the Gods
Eridu: the First Heroes

If only I could think of something that means "adventurers" that starts with an e (or at least a vowel) we could have some nice alliteration. Explorers of Eridu would do it, but sounds kind of weak to me.

Remember that most Campaign Settings have a world name and a setting name: Forgotten Realms/Faerun/Toril, Dragonlance/Krynn, Greyhawk/Oerth, Dark Sun/Athas, etc.

We could use Eridu for the world and have something else for the setting (or vice-versa, though, as you said, Eridu by itself could be more compelling).

[Another_Poet]

The problem is that fighters and rogues are already among the classes which I'm having trouble fitting into this setting - I don't want to make them even more boring (what I mean is that most Mesopotamian heroes would probably be priests, or maybe barbarians. There aren't many normal fighter types that I've seen).

Well, I suppose that's true as far as the famous heroes, but those countries had their regular soldiers. For every 1 chariot archer there were 100 spearmen. Some players may find it fun to draw their characters from the lower ranks like that.

Looking into that further, it seems like we should be able to do something fascinating with that idea, but I'm having a hard time thinking what (though using them as Plot Hooks is certainly a reasonable option).

You know in some ways that could be the ultimate Maguffin quest. Usually when you have to collext X maguffins for the quest it's 3 famous artifacts or maybe 4 or 5 famous artifacts. But what if it was 100? What if all 100 me had been scattered across the realm, some even into the realm of the titans and some into the land of the dead, and some great priestess has put out a call for the 100 me to be reunited and brought to the great Zigurrat to the Sky (=Tower of Babel)?

Each of the me could be a wondrous item with its own special power. Other adventurers would surely answer the call in addition to the PCs, so at higher levels you might run into a rival team who have like 35 me on them or something. Individual me might be held by divine beasts, corrupt kings, priest of other gods, or buried or lost somewhere.

I was more thinking about whether they should be represented by a new race, or whether they should simply be more humans.

Well I was thinking that any of the races who do agriculture would also have their share of nomads who haven't settled down yet. So there could be nomads of several races.

On the other hand you could make a special human subrace for nomads. That would be kind of cool. They could lose the bonus skill points because they have no great centres of education but gain something else instead. +10' speed (stakcs with +10' from barbarian), or bonus on saves, or some specialty ability. Would still get the human bonus feat just like normal humans.

That's all the casters. On a scholar-type class, I would be inclined to either use Hierodules (who I am leaning towards not making full casters), or partially replacing rogues with experts and using them. I think that there was some famous Hierodule who did a lot of historical recording, but I can't find her at the moment.

My first thought was hierodules but they are already becoming quite powerful. I think giving them a bard spell progression instead of full casting is a good step, and if they also get some bardic buff abilities and of course their faithrape/ragerape powers I think they are set.

I'd definitely favour the rogue-plus-expert combo. you could flavour them as specially trained scholars, often from noble families (hence their fighting ability). Some use their knowledge for good and some use it for personal gain (thus the thief/deceiver aspect). They have access to secret knowledge (such as how to make/use poisons, very big deal in ancient times) and would have every incentive to sneak into ancient tombs and libraries in search of legendary artefacts.

Remember that most Campaign Settings have a world name and a setting name: Forgotten Realms/Faerun/Toril, Dragonlance/Krynn, Greyhawk/Oerth, Dark Sun/Athas, etc.

We could use Eridu for the world and have something else for the setting (or vice-versa, though, as you said, Eridu by itself could be more compelling).

True true. I think we should keep thinking on this. There's got to be some good combo of Eridu and a catchy tag line.

[Antariuk]

Well, I suppose that's true as far as the famous heroes, but those countries had their regular soldiers. For every 1 chariot archer there were 100 spearmen. Some players may find it fun to draw their characters from the lower ranks like that.

Indeed. And I think in this setting would be a place for rogues too, but for example the lockpicking thing is complicated - there were very few locks with a key, if any (I don't know exactly), and just adding mechanical locks would destroy the sense of a bronze-time culture were not everything was made from metal. I would like to think of ways to solve this in the setting rather than in the class description, so perhaps we could collect some ideas on this (if appreciated) - you see I would like to keep the Rogue :)

Each of the me could be a wondrous item with its own special power. Other adventurers would surely answer the call in addition to the PCs, so at higher levels you might run into a rival team who have like 35 me on them or something. Individual me might be held by divine beasts, corrupt kings, priest of other gods, or buried or lost somewhere.

Absolutely brilliant idea. Even if you as a DM are not using me in the quests of your Eridu campaign, you just add news from other cities were a me was recovered or let the pleyers met some guys that once found a me and sold it to a priest-king - flavour, here we go. I like this a lot.

On the other hand you could make a special human subrace for nomads. That would be kind of cool. They could lose the bonus skill points because they have no great centres of education but gain something else instead. +10' speed (stakcs with +10' from barbarian), or bonus on saves, or some specialty ability. Would still get the human bonus feat just like normal humans.

Yeah, this could be fine. Nomads will be rather scouts and rangers (in ways of fighting) than the full-frontal fighter or barbarian, but some changes from the expeceted theme would do it well, too. Again you can specialize, lets say a tribe is known for its furious archers and another one for its fast and agile scouts? Lots of possibilities here, but I think it would be good to design at least some nomads in opposite to fighters and solders from settled cities, so an ambush or a similar event set up for the players would feel more intense, as they could see the clash of cultures in that event (and not only guys fighting other guys).

[Another_Poet]

Nomads will be rather scouts and rangers (in ways of fighting) than the full-frontal fighter or barbarian, but some changes from the expeceted theme would do it well, too. Again you can specialize, lets say a tribe is known for its furious archers and another one for its fast and agile scouts? Lots of possibilities here, but I think it would be good to design at least some nomads in opposite to fighters and solders from settled cities, so an ambush or a similar event set up for the players would feel more intense, as they could see the clash of cultures in that event (and not only guys fighting other guys).

Oooh good call!

[Antariuk]

I collected some ideas from Wikipedia while I was bored on work. Note that this is only about Sumer (and especially early Sumer), so some things will be different if looking at the Akkadians or Babylonians.

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer

It is fairly certain that it was during the Uruk period that Sumerian cities began to make use of slave labor captured from the hill country, and there is ample evidence for captured slaves as workers in the earliest texts.

So we have slaves. Many slaves were normal people in their former life (not born into slavery), because it was common practice that if a city state conquered another one, most of the people were enslaved (think of the Exodus in the bible, its pretty much the story), not just for the victorious king but the soldiers were often allowed to claim slaves theirselves as part of the fee. Player characters with slaves? Wheeee...

Time was reckoned in lunar months.

Time to get rid off the calendar of Harptos :P

The Code of Ur-Nammu, the oldest such codification yet discovered, dating to the Ur-III "Sumerian Renaissance", reveals a glimpse at societal structure in late Sumerian law. Beneath the lu-gal ("great man" or king), all members of society belonged to one of two basic strata: The "lu" or free person, and the slave (male, arad; female geme). The son of a lu was called a dumu-nita until he married. A woman (munus) went from being a daughter (dumu-mi), to a wife (dam), then if she outlived her husband, a widow (numasu) who could remarry.

Interesting here that there is no different status for craftsman like in medieval Europe, so if the players are not (former) slaves they all have pretty much the same rights (except priests and such).

The Tigris-Euphrates plain lacked minerals and trees. Sumerian structures were made of plano-convex mudbrick, not fixed with mortar or cement. Mud-brick buildings eventually deteriorate, so they were periodically destroyed, leveled, and rebuilt on the same spot. This constant rebuilding gradually raised the level of cities, which thus came to be elevated above the surrounding plain. The resultant hills, known as tells, are found throughout the ancient Near East.

I forgot to refer to this before, had some ideas but now they are lost... but it looks like we can have many ruined cities without making them hundrets of years old. That would be good for hiding valueables in ruins without haveing the players asking all the time why the hell no one else looted that ruin before.

Discoveries of obsidian from far-away locations in Anatolia and lapis lazuli from northeastern Afghanistan, beads from Dilmun (modern Bahrain), and several seals inscribed with the Indus Valley script suggest a remarkably wide-ranging network of ancient trade centered around the Persian Gulf.

So there is no problem with having exotic and rare goods available on markets for the players, as long as the city has access to waterways or trade routs, and it saves the DM from creating craftsmen and infrastructure for everything the players can buy.

The first war recorded was between Lagash and Umma in ca. 2525 BC on a stele called the Stele of Vultures. It shows the king of Lagash leading a Sumerian army consisting mostly of infantry. The infantrymen carried spears, wore copper helmets and carried leather or wicker shields. The spearmen are shown arranged in what resembles the phalanx formation, which requires training and discipline; this implies that the Sumerians may have made use of professional soldiers.

More spears! Would be great to have Fighters and other warfare characters with spears rather than the usual sword or axe. Spears are something I sometimes missed in a D&D3.5 game.

There is much evidence that the Sumerians loved music. It seemed to be an important part of religious and civic life in Sumer. Lyres were popular in Sumer; see Sumerian music.

and from from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_music

A lyre is an example of an instrument used in Sumer. Before playing a stringed instrument, the musicians would wash their hands to purify them. Many of the songs were for the Goddess Innana.

Music and dancing were a part of daily celebration and temple rites-music was played for marriages and births in the royal families. Music was also used to back up the recitation of poetry.

Musicians were trained in schools and formed an important professional class in Mesopotamia

Bards will have a good time, if you gave them some occasions for being employed if a ceremony or wedding is being held.

[Another_Poet]

Perhaps having someone accompany a sacrifice with a lyre should impart a bonmus on the Diplomacy roll that is made at the end of the sacrifice.

ap

[Thane of Fife]

Well, I suppose that's true as far as the famous heroes, but those countries had their regular soldiers. For every 1 chariot archer there were 100 spearmen. Some players may find it fun to draw their characters from the lower ranks like that.

That's what I've been going with so far.

Indeed. And I think in this setting would be a place for rogues too, but for example the lockpicking thing is complicated - there were very few locks with a key, if any (I don't know exactly), and just adding mechanical locks would destroy the sense of a bronze-time culture were not everything was made from metal. I would like to think of ways to solve this in the setting rather than in the class description, so perhaps we could collect some ideas on this (if appreciated) - you see I would like to keep the Rogue :)

The Rogue is going to stay, I'm just struggling to find an interesting niche for it.

Absolutely brilliant idea. Even if you as a DM are not using me in the quests of your Eridu campaign, you just add news from other cities were a me was recovered or let the pleyers met some guys that once found a me and sold it to a priest-king - flavour, here we go. I like this a lot.

Yes, that works well with the me. Also, I think that we might need to change that name - me is too commonly used in another way.

Yeah, this could be fine. Nomads will be rather scouts and rangers (in ways of fighting) than the full-frontal fighter or barbarian, but some changes from the expeceted theme would do it well, too. Again you can specialize, lets say a tribe is known for its furious archers and another one for its fast and agile scouts? Lots of possibilities here, but I think it would be good to design at least some nomads in opposite to fighters and solders from settled cities, so an ambush or a similar event set up for the players would feel more intense, as they could see the clash of cultures in that event (and not only guys fighting other guys).

Nomads could work as a human subrace. I like those ideas.

Note that this is only about Sumer (and especially early Sumer), so some things will be different if looking at the Akkadians or Babylonians.

Currently, we're looking from about early Sumer to early Persia (yeah, large time span there).

So we have slaves. Many slaves were normal people in their former life (not born into slavery), because it was common practice that if a city state conquered another one, most of the people were enslaved (think of the Exodus in the bible, its pretty much the story), not just for the victorious king but the soldiers were often allowed to claim slaves theirselves as part of the fee. Player characters with slaves? Wheeee...

Early on, I considered using Generic Classes, with Spellcaster nobles, Expert slaves, and Warrior soldiers. That's pretty much gone, though.

I forgot to refer to this before, had some ideas but now they are lost... but it looks like we can have many ruined cities without making them hundrets of years old. That would be good for hiding valueables in ruins without haveing the players asking all the time why the hell no one else looted that ruin before.

That could be interesting - I had also considered having Pre-Flood stuff.

More spears! Would be great to have Fighters and other warfare characters with spears rather than the usual sword or axe. Spears are something I sometimes missed in a D&D3.5 game.

Soldiers have always used spears - that doesn't stop their being relatively poor weapons for individuals, though. Much of what I've read suggests Khopeshes, Sapparas, and axes.

Bards will have a good time, if you gave them some occasions for being employed if a ceremony or wedding is being held.

Bard != Musician

Bard is a fairly specific archetype, and it is a Celtic one. There will be no bards.

And here is a very preliminary map of Eridu:

[Antariuk]

Currently, we're looking from about early Sumer to early Persia (yeah, large time span there).

Indeed, but hey, lets see the good point: tons and tons of stuff to take ideas from.

That could be interesting - I had also considered having Pre-Flood stuff.

That sounds good. For example, many of the pre-flood kings are listed as extreme long-living humans (like 300.000 years), so they were some kind of supernatural? Player could find strange items left behind by these ancestors.

Bard != Musician

Bard is a fairly specific archetype, and it is a Celtic one. There will be no bards.

Ok, you have a point.

And here is a very preliminary map of Eridu:

Looks good. Perhaps you want to add some islands or perhaps one, so we can have Dilmun, wich is some sort of a paradise to Sumer: "Dilmun, sometimes described as "the place where the sun rises" and "the Land of the Living", is the scene of some versions of the Sumerian creation myth, and the place where the deified Sumerian hero of the flood, Utnapishtim (Ziusudra), was taken by the gods to live forever." (from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilmun)

EDIT: Hm, I just realized that you put the cedar forest near the coast - although there are cedars growing at the asian coasts (in real world), most of them can be found on mountans. Perhaps just add some mountains into the woods?

[Another_Poet]

I like everythign said here. I just want to add that I like the word "me" as it is. I think it we used a capital M and put it in italics, Me would be easy to distinguish and understand. It's a nice counterpoint to the zqar'yari type words all too often found in fantasy.

[LucyHarris]

How is that pronounced, by the way? Is it like "mee" or "meh"? Or something else?

[Antariuk]

How is that pronounced, by the way? Is it like "mee" or "meh"? Or something else?

I have this small explanation in one of my lists:

The vowels may be pronounced as follows: a as in father, u as in pull, e as in peg, and i as in hip. Of the special consonants, ñ is pronounced like ng in rang, þ is pronounced like ch in German Buch or Scottish loch, and š is pronounced like sh in dash.

By the way, Me is only the short-form, to say so:

me-du-du-ga: the good 'me's, the beneficial functions.
me-kìlib-ba: all the 'me's, all the functions of civilized life.
me-maþ: the high 'me's, the high functions
me-þuš: terrible 'me's, negative attributes
me-nam-nun-na: the (god-given) 'me' of royalty
me-nì-galam: perfected 'me's

[BlueWizard]

This sounds right up my alley.

[LucyHarris]

me-du-du-ga: the good 'me's, the beneficial functions.
me-kìlib-ba: all the 'me's, all the functions of civilized life.
me-maþ: the high 'me's, the high functions
me-þuš: terrible 'me's, negative attributes
me-nam-nun-na: the (god-given) 'me' of royalty
me-nì-galam: perfected 'me's

Um....wow. You might have to streamline that one general way of saying it for the game.

[ufo]

There are probably a hundred Playgrounders who could do this much better, but I thought this whole setting was awesome and I was feeling bad that I wasn't contributing somehow

Wasn't sure what the yellow parts on the original meant, though.