Relationship Woes and Advice, The Seventh Saga

[skywalker]

Previously, on "Hawk's adventures on the GitP forums": I posted in the last RWaA thread and got some handy advice from skywalker and Felixaar.

Hey thanks man, it looks like you've pitched another one right into my wheelhouse haha.

First off, this guy is really smart:

3) Confidence is a state of mind

firstly - i'll address this line

"hey, we should like maybe sorta hang out sometime if it's not too much trouble..."?

don't use it. Just don't. That would be acting as if your pressence is a hardship, and not something she would enjoy. And by the sounds of it she already has a great time being around you - so throw that line in the trash where it belongs. Its time for a new way of thinking...

You have to go out there thinking that you are a catch. And if you don't think that way about yourself, act like it anyway. Do what ever else you have to to boost your ego (wear a decent outfit/get your hair trimmed up - shallow, but they work - its about feeling positive about the way you look). You can't expect someone else to want to date you if you don't like yourself - so start now

and besides if you don't ask, you'll never know (pancake's rule #2: "rejection is better than regret" - fear and confidence can sometimes be great motivators when mixed together properly)

as for how? I wouldn't neccesarily call it a date - that sometimes comes over as a bit formal. I'd always advise asking her out face-to-face. Lunch after a lesson seems a bit grey area... Phrasing wise... "hey, how about i take you out to lunch after public speaking". Short, to the point, confident, and also "take you out" is good language for calling something a date without using the word date itself. Buying someone dinner is a lot more date like than having lunch with a friend, so sets the tone a bit better. Dinner would probably push it further towards date territory

Now, pancake might say we're getting a bit ahead of ourselves, but I've got some more advice that I think is relevant to some of your other stuff.

Since then, little has changed...but one big thing has come up, and I am badly in need of help/advice/a place to vent and organize my thoughts:

Spoiler

Show

So, as a quick refresher, I am in a wheel chair in public due to health problems, and "celebrating" my 5th year of being utterly single.

So, there's this girl. She is a fellow psych major and she's really nice and seems totally unphased by my health problems. She's cute (maybe not traditionally attractive, but I think she's good looking), nice, funny, and smart (probably smarter than me, tbh). We've been study partners for a few months now and we're pretty good friends. She's also a recent convert to the LDS church and bipolar (warning bells 2 and 3...I've had some bad experiences trying to date LDS girls when I myself am not religous, no offense meant to any of the Mormons reading ).

Despite all that, I think I like her and want to ask her out. There are a few problems...

1. The bipolar thing really doesn't bother me; she seems like she has a good grip on it, my father is bipolar so I have some experience with it, and it'd be really hypocritical of me to nix it on that when she is my friend despite my endless physical disabilities. The LDS part, however...does. Like I said, the last girl I even sorta dated was LDS and it ended in misery and suffering. She's a convert instead of a lifelong member, but anyone with experience in religion and relationships advice would be much appreciated. For the record, I have no problem with her not seeing Rated R movies, not drinking coffee, and not wanting to have an overly physical relationship, nor do I have any issue with her going to church every sunday. What is an issue is her pestering me to go to church/not watch "bad" movies/stop drinking three cups of coffee a day. I dunno if she'll be like that or not, so does anyone have some success stories with how to make a relationship like that work? Or with differences like that, is conflict and a swift, fiery break-up the only outcome?

2. Any good ways to tell if she's interested? I suck horribly at reading signals and "playing the game"; hand to God a girl should probably make a giant, flashing, glowing sign if she's interested...but no such luck here. She is, as said, super sweet to me and on our recent study sessions we've mostly ended up chatting instead of actually studying. She off-hand mentioned how weird being at the LDS Singles speed-dating night was...and then, a few days later, told me that she had dinner with some guy. So I'm, like, totally lost.

3. So, actually asking her out...HALP. I have been single for five years. In my only other serious relationship, she asked me out and did all the opening foot work. Since this girl is, as mentioned, LDS, I strongly doubt she would do that as it is "against the rules" to be so forward, meaning its all on me. My confidence is so shot that I'm not sure where to start...text, phone call, or random after class "Hey, come get lunch with me after public speaking"? What's a good first date? Do I use the word date, or be lame and say "hey, we should like maybe sorta hang out sometime if it's not too much trouble..."?

Sorry for the long rant; for all who read through it and can offer advice thanks in advance.

Pancake hit it out of the park on the asking her out stuff. Might not even want to mention the other guy, just because she's interested in him, doesn't mean she can't be interested in you. I wouldn't worry unless she mentions him again. But if she does, it could be a "back off" signal. I wouldn't worry about it too much until then.

As for religion (in general), if she wants all that stuff from you and you don't want to change, then I think you're irreconcilable and it's not going to work. But my long-time girlfriend is Jewish (I'm very, very not) and we've made it work just fine. She doesn't pressure me to give up anything she's given up. By the same token, and I think this is the best advice for making this type of relationship work, you should come to the middle a little bit too. I don't know how that would really work since I'm not too familiar with the belief system. In my case, it means I try to go to temple with her every once in a while and show some genuine interest in her beliefs (translation: don't go every Sunday, but do go occasionally, to see what it's like), I don't eat pork or anything else non-kosher around her, etc. I personally think it would show sensitivity to maybe give up the coffee around her, but then it was a pretty big step for me when I first took it.

So, show some respect/interest and be available to compromise yourself. And certainly don't suggest that you go for coffee, or whatnot.

[Zid]

This is actually more of a confession than a real cry for help- I just don´t have anyone to talk to.

I´m a male in my twenties. I have reasonably good looks, a good education and a job that both pays well and have high social status. For fours years, I have been in a relationship with J, my current bf, one year younger than me. Both our families have a bit of a problem with our homosexuality, and therefore we havn´t really done the "meet my folks"-thing yet. J have met and is well loved by all my friends, both the old crowd from college and the new people I´ve met through my work (I´m an aspiring cardiologist).

At first, our relationship was all I´ve ever wanted. Everyday life, humor, sex, everything worked perfectly. We ran into a few bumps on the road when he made out with another guy when I was at work. As a "punishment" of sorts, I started an anonymous page on a internet dating site for gays. I don´t really know what I was thinking, just some sort of petty revenge, or perhaps just affirmation that I was still "desirable goods" on the flesh market. I had that page for a few months, and then discarded it, deciding to move on and let bygones be bygones. I never met a guy through those ad, and have actually never had physical contact with another guy since I met J, not even a hug.

When we travelled to new york this summer, I opened Pandoras Box. I guess his continous unwillingness to let me even come near the computer when his MSN is running just caught up with me- I read his mobil phone text messages. One was from one of his Xs, wondering if he "could sleep at your place tonight". I just decided that it was probably nothing, just a drunk X trying to avoid going a one hour train ride in the middle of the night.

The day before yesterday, he felt "ill" and wanted me to sleep at my own place that night, OK by me since I was on call. I just thought he was a bit strange, and while he was in the shower this morning, I checked his text messages again. This time, it was much worse. Some guy, let us call him "C", had left several messages with content like (freely translated):"Thanks for tonight sweetie. I´m missing you". Again, I didn´t know what to do, and just said goodbye to my bf and went to work.

Using the internet, I´ve found out that C is living in a small town, about twenty minutes from our own, and is 19 years old. Now I am just tired and confused, wondering what is really going on. Is he cheating behind my back, and if so why? We´ve never had any ties that chained us to each others, and if anyone wanted to end the relationship it would have been very easy.

I´ll admit, I havn´t been a saint myself. I´ve had anonymous pages on dating sites more than the time I described above, but I´ve never done anything. I could definately accept that J would have such pages himself. I´ve actually assumed it. I´ve found messages in his phone from people living far away, and thought that it was about the same thing that I did, that I at least couldnt judge him for it, even though I´ve never given out any of my personal details online. But now, with the possibility that he is actually meeting others for sex... I´ve just felt sick all day, and felt like I had to tell someone. So, for good or for worse, that´s my story.

Now I am going to end my workday, then I am going to the gym. I don´t really know what to do next. It felt better to get this all down in writing though.

[Syka]

AKK, I'm going to have to hop in and say the checking camera thing is in the creepy category when you could have just asked her by saying "Hey, I heard you came by yesterday" or something.

Also, I don't think it was inappropriate of her to accept the gift. I doubt she realized that you liked her in more than a friendly capacity, so I can see her accepting it as just something nice someone did. And not everyone wears engagement rings or a ring that looks like one. For instance, I want mine to be a ruby, which I doubt most people would think of as an engagement ring.

[Hawk7915]

Thanks, xPANCAKEx and skywalker. I already feel my anxiety level rising...but I'm gonna try today. Hopefully. Maybe. At least if I can't work up the courage to ask her out in public to lunch, I will try to arrange a study session this weekend (exam on Monday) to get her alone and ask her then.

Man, I sound like such a dork . I'm new at this so, so I figure it's okay...wish me luck!

[snoopy13a]

Ah, so that's what engagement rings are meant for--fending off an extreme social faux pas! That's all the notification people who aren't in the relationship need.

Yep, when you hit your mid-twenties you start checking ring fingers for an engagement ring and/or wedding band.

[Dallas-Dakota]

You can't. 16 years since I met her, 12 since I last saw her, and she still haunts my dreams. At least now, she has company in my head.

That umm....Does not sound good....

In the past, upon examining how I react to things, I've found that if my mind is doing something I don't want it to it's because some other part of me does want to. I then instruct that part of my mind to stop wanting it. (Or, alternatively, do nothing, but that doesn't sound like a good choice in this case.) I do think a lot, and am deeply introspective, but I see no reason why this shouldn't work for most people. Simply examine yourself, find why the problem is how it is, then take the necessary steps to fix it.

Sadly my mind does often not listen to me.

So overal.....Doesn´t sound good.
Yay, another thing to be depressed about.

[Quincunx]

Well, it's also the duty of the ring-wearer to put it on the culturally appropriate finger unless it's badly sized. AtomicKitKat noticed it at least, and tried to figure it out, so he's absolved of any blame of not doing so.

There is a way to act "taken" and fend off casual dating inquiries, but I don't have any good idea what it involves. All I know is it took months to make those subconscious adjustments. Jewelry came much later and was not open to interpretation.

[Syka]

Well, it's also the duty of the ring-wearer to put it on the culturally appropriate finger unless it's badly sized. AtomicKitKat noticed it at least, and tried to figure it out, so he's absolved of any blame of not doing so.

There is a way to act "taken" and fend off casual dating inquiries, but I don't have any good idea what it involves. All I know is it took months to make those subconscious adjustments. Jewelry came much later and was not open to interpretation.

While at my place of work the ONLY time I acted other than professional (ie, mentioning my boyfriend, because I'm not sure how else there is to act while on the job in a manner that marks you as taken) was when I was specifically asked out by a customer or was talking with coworkers while no one else was in the store.

It honestly doesn't sound like AKK made himself seem anything other than just a friendly guy who worked near by, which sucks but I don't necessarily see it as a social faux paux (sp?) for her to not have mentioned it given the context in which she knew him. She actually probably didn't even know him that well from what he said.

As I said, it sucks, but I don't think she's at fault here.

[Quincunx]

Agreed, agreed. Just musing aloud here and hoping I hit something that resonates. That 'taken' quality is only noticeable when it's absent in only one party. It's. . .subtle refusals. It's the assumption and ownership of "no". It's a shell of empty space carried to the left or right instead of centered on the person. It's a look that finds the idea of 1 + 1 perverted, knowing that the answer is 3.

[averagejoe]

Welp, as it turns out she never did break up with him. I misheard somehow, probably hopeful thinking at work. So that's that, I suppose, at least for now.

The only thing that makes a lot of sense right now is a spiral of self destruction in which I destroy my health and estrange my friends and family. It somehow doesn't seem in character, though, so I'll wait for a better option to present itself.

Still, I enjoyed seeing her. Best day I've had in months, even in light of this.

[Pyrian]

Welp, as it turns out she never did break up with him. I misheard somehow, probably hopeful thinking at work.

I feel ya; I have a (drop dead gorgeous) friend whom mutual friends are pretty much constantly saying has broken up with her man of, like, a decade. And this gossip has been going on for years. And it's always, like, "No no, they're really done this time!" ...Uh-huh, yeah, and the wolf's there again, you say?

[AtomicKitKat]

Thing is that we did talk and generally there was an even exchange of information("Where do you live? Oh? Same side of the island as me then." "You work that many days/hours, huh? Mine are more like..."). Sigh. At the least, the girls working in a neighbouring shop were supportive enough yesterday. And no, at least for those 2, I know I'm not in danger of mistaking stuff.

As for the getting someone out of your head, it's not really possible. The best I can suggest is for knocking someone off whatever pedestal you've put them on. Their (imagined) public humiliation, or imagining them hurting you physically. Once you manage to "imperfect" them, it's a lot easier to stop thinking about them with the mind fog. Let me stress again. Imagine. Actually carrying out the humiliation/hurt will likely result in jail time. If you're the type who typically translates thought into action, then scale it down. A lot.

[Felixaar]

AKK, game over. That's the way life is, best of luck and move on. Hate to say it but agree that using work cctv footage for personal reasons seems a little odd.

D-D, Nyaww man, don't worry about it too much eh? In the end they're only girls - but don't let the feminsits league find out I said that.

Previously, on "Hawk's adventures on the GitP forums": I posted in the last RWaA thread and got some handy advice from skywalker and Felixaar.

Woo! Always nice to hear my advice was useful. As for this girl, I suppose the only way to find out whether it could work or not is to give things a try - after all, what do you have to lose? As far as asking out goes, try the talking to girls link in my sig. Best of luck, mate

Joe, that's a shame man but I suppose it is the way life goes. Better luck next time, eh?

Zid, that's awful mate - I think you need to have a serious talk with your boyfriend about this. Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like one of those "simple, other explanation" scenarios, especially given the prior incident. *hugs* Best of luck, pal.

[averagejoe]

Joe, that's a shame man but I suppose it is the way life goes. Better luck next time, eh?

It's honestly hard to imagine a next time. I'd rather spend my life alone than take second prize. I've never dated for it's own sake or just to find someone. This is one of the rare cases where I'll try with a girl because she is genuinely someone I like, not someone who I think it could work with, but someone who I hold in high esteem. She's set the bar pretty high, and the "next time" would have to equal or beat it. Not interested otherwise.

[Felixaar]

I understand and agree with you 100%

[averagejoe]

Eh, I'll be alright. It isn't optimal, but life rarely is, and I long ago made peace with the idea that it wouldn't work. I think I mainly felt bad because of the faint hope but lack of actual resolution; now that I'm out of limbo things should get better. I think I shall make the decision to keep loving her, though. I rather enjoy that bit.

[skywalker]

Yep, when you hit your mid-twenties you start checking ring fingers for an engagement ring and/or wedding band.

I do this naturally now, by instinct. Even tho I have a girlfriend. Mainly because I don't like punches in the face, which can happen if you say the wrong thing to someone's fiance.

It is most definitely the wearer's job to put it on the right finger. Middle finger of the left hand can also create problems for the casual observer, and, IMO, should also be avoided.

[Pyrian]

I'd rather spend my life alone than take second prize.

It's a sad day when I'm reduced to quoting Starship Troopers: "You once asked me for advice. You want some now? Never pass up a good thing."

[averagejoe]

It's a sad day when I'm reduced to quoting Starship Troopers: "You once asked me for advice. You want some now? Never pass up a good thing."

Perhaps. You have to appreciate, though, that I've never had romantic interest in many people, and I've never seen being single as a necessary negative.

[Berserk Monk]

It's a sad day when I'm reduced to quoting Starship Troopers: "You once asked me for advice. You want some now? Never pass up a good thing."

Well it's an awesome day when I'm forced to quote Clerks: You know there are a million fine chicks in the world. Not all of them bring you lasagna at work. Most of them just cheat on you."

[xPANCAKEx]

It's a sad day when I'm reduced to quoting Starship Troopers: "You once asked me for advice. You want some now? Never pass up a good thing."

the only thing to counter that is the one you're going for makes you feel that less amazing than the one you wanted, then it stops being a good thing and causes a bit of resentment

[Felixaar]

It's a sad day when I'm reduced to quoting Starship Troopers: "You once asked me for advice. You want some now? Never pass up a good thing."

But be sure it's a good thing first

And I believe the ultimate starship troopers quote came in one word. "HOO-AH!"

I can't stop saying it! I think I have a problem.

[averagejoe]

But be sure it's a good thing first

And I believe the ultimate starship troopers quote came in one word. "HOO-AH!"

I can't stop saying it! I think I have a problem.

Heh, I say the same thing. Don't remember it from that movie though.

[Pyrian]

It's a U.S. Marine Corp thing.

I'm not saying take a bad thing. I'm just suggesting that rejecting #2 just 'cause she's not #1 (who's about to get married), but is still better than 6+ billion other people, isn't such a good idea.

[averagejoe]

I'm not saying take a bad thing. I'm just suggesting that rejecting #2 just 'cause she's not #1 (who's about to get married), but is still better than 6+ billion other people, isn't such a good idea.

And I say bust into the wedding just as the guy says, "blah blah forever hold your peace."

You do make a fair point, but it's just not how I do. I feel that some things are just not worth doing unless they're worth doing right. Perhaps it's foolish, but, on the whole it's not something I've ever been willing to do. Depending on the #2, I suppose. Of course, I might meet someone else just as incredible, and that would be a different story, but otherwise I dunno.

I feel better, though. Happy, even. I love her, by god, and that's pretty cool.

[xPANCAKEx]

And I say bust into the wedding just as the guy says, "blah blah forever hold your peace."

You do make a fair point, but it's just not how I do. I feel that some things are just not worth doing unless they're worth doing right. Perhaps it's foolish, but, on the whole it's not something I've ever been willing to do. Depending on the #2, I suppose. Of course, I might meet someone else just as incredible, and that would be a different story, but otherwise I dunno.

I feel better, though. Happy, even. I love her, by god, and that's pretty cool.

see, over here in the UK, when they're getting to the "know of any lawful impediment" part - if you stop things and you're lying/just joking around/being a douche you can be charged with interfering with a legal contract (can't remember what the exact charge is called) - either way, it will usually mean jail time unless you have a genuine reason to stop proceedings.

Im very much a "don't settle for 2nd best" kinda guy - but that doesn't mean i can't have a whole lot of fun in the mean time till i meet someone that makes me feel amazing again

[Felixaar]

And I say bust into the wedding just as the guy says, "blah blah forever hold your peace."

I really want to do this someday, but hopefully I'll never have to.

And I agree with Joe on this one, personally - Pyrian makes a good point, but I for one would always find myself wondering about what might have been, and perhaps ultimately being dissapointed with my choice.

[averagejoe]

see, over here in the UK, when they're getting to the "know of any lawful impediment" part - if you stop things and you're lying/just joking around/being a douche you can be charged with interfering with a legal contract (can't remember what the exact charge is called) - either way, it will usually mean jail time unless you have a genuine reason to stop proceedings.

Bah. Laws are always ruining my fun. I guess I'd have to implicate him in murder or something, just so I'd have a genuine reason to stop the proceedings. I dunno, I'd have to research what constitutes "reason."

Man, when did stopping weddings become so complicated?

Im very much a "don't settle for 2nd best" kinda guy - but that doesn't mean i can't have a whole lot of fun in the mean time till i meet someone that makes me feel amazing again

While I agree in principle, I've never figured out how to say, "I totally plan to dump you once something better comes along," without feeling like a giant douche.

[Pyrian]

While I agree in principle, I've never figured out how to say, "I totally plan to dump you once something better comes along," without feeling like a giant douche.

Ah, reflexive honesty makes a simple fling SOOO much more complicated.

[averagejoe]

Ah, reflexive honesty makes a simple fling SOOO much more complicated.

Reflexive honesty is how I operate. I have little patience for the games a lot of couples seem to like to play with each other.