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    Post [3.5] Revised Mystic Theurge [PrC]

    Revised Mystic Theurge


    Masters of both realms of magic, the mystic theurge attempts to walk both the path of the arcanist while currying the favor of the divine forces of the cosmos. Equally at home in ancient libraries, plundering ancient tomes for their secrets as he would be meditating on the deeper mysteries of his deity, the mystic theurge amasses a great deal of magical power through his intense study of both devotions.
    Hit Die: d4

    Requirements:
    Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks
    Feats: Arcane Disciple (choose one of your deity's domains), any metamagic feat.
    Spells: Ability to cast both 2nd level arcane and 2nd level divine spells

    Revised Mystic Theurge
    {table=head]
    Level
    |
    BAB
    |
    Fort Save
    |
    Ref Save
    |
    Will Save
    |
    Special
    |
    Spells

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |Turn Undead, Double Cast 1/day|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class / +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Arcano-Divine Metamagic|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class / +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

    3rd|
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |Combined Spell Power +1|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class / +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

    4th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Double Cast 2/day|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class / +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

    5th|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    ||+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class / +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

    6th|
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Combined Spell Power +2|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class / +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

    7th|
    +3
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Double Cast 3/day|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class / +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

    8th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |Improved Arcane Disciple|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class / +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

    9th|
    +4
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |Combined Spell Power +3|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class / +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

    10th|
    +5
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Double Cast 4/day|+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class / +1 level of existing divine spellcasting class[/table]

    Class Skills: The mystic theurge’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
    Skill Points per Level: 2 + Intelligence modifier

    Class Features:
    All of the following are features of the mystic theurge prestige class.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Mystic theurges gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

    Spells per Day: When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.

    Turn Undead: A mystic theurge adds his levels in this class to his cleric levels for all purposes related to turning undead. If the mystic theurge did not possess the ability to turn undead previously, he does not gain it from this class feature.

    Double Cast (Ex): Through intense training at both of his mystical traditions, the mystic theurge learns how to draw forth the power of divine magic and arcane magic at the same time. By spending a full-round action, the mystic theurge is able to cast one arcane spell and one divine spell during the same turn. Both spells must have a casting time of one standard action or less to qualify for double casting. The mystic theurge may do this once per day at 1st level, and may use this ability an additional time each day at 4th, 7th, and 10th level.

    Arcano-Divine Metamagic (Su): By learning how to blend both arcane and divine energies together, the mystic theurge is capable of generating impressive metamagic effects at the cost of additional spell energy. Starting at 2nd level, you can choose to sacrifice a spell or spell slot from one of your classes to apply the effect of a metamagic feat that you know to a spell cast using the other class. (For instance, you could sacrifice a wizard spell to apply a metamagic effect to a cleric spell.) This sacrificed spell or slot is lost (just as if you had cast the spell) in addition to the spell you are actually casting.

    The level of the spell to be augmented can't exceed 1/2 your class level. For example, when you first gain this ability, you can only apply a metamagic effect to 1st-level spells. A 10th-level mystic theurge can affect spells of 5th level or lower.

    The level of the spell slot sacrificed must equal or exceed the spell level adjustment of the metamagic feat. To empower a spell, for example, you would have to spend a 2nd-level or higher spell. You can't use this ability to augment a spell already affected by a metamagic feat.

    You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + 1/2 your class level.

    Combined Spell Power (Ex): At 3rd level, your caster level for both arcane and divine spells increases by 1. It increases again at 6th level, and 9th level (to a maximum of +3).

    Improved Arcane Disciple (Ex): At 8th level, the mystic theurge may now treat any domains he possesses from his deity as if he had the Arcane Disciple feat for that domain. Example: If a mystic theurge devoted to Pelor had the domains Sun and Healing, and possessed the Arcane Disciple feat for the Good domain, he would now be treated as if he also possessed the Arcane Disciple feats for the Sun and Healing domain as well.
    Last edited by ErrantX; 2009-04-20 at 11:13 PM.
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    eek Re: [3.5] Revised Mystic Theurge [PrC]

    *bump*

    Nobody has any critiques as to the game balance of this class? The arcane heirophant or ultimate magus not withstanding, how does this class measure up to the rest of the pack? Or am I really just that good? ;)

    -X
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Mystic Theurge [PrC]

    I'm not familiar with the arcane hierophant, but this class doesn't change the fact that, from levels 4-7, and for a few levels after, you have very low level spells and are practically useless.

    It's hard to fix this... but you might want to frontload it with casting progression on one side, then have the other side eventually catch up, and/or make the class accessible earlier.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Mystic Theurge [PrC]

    Well, most prestige classes don't allow entrance until level 6 or higher, so reducing spell casting requirements to get into the class makes it -way- too strong at early level. The problem with mystic theurge (my revision or the original) and any two caster classes taped together is that it requires to player to sort of pay an entrance fee of not being all that amazing for a little while. At levels 4-7 you're either not your party's main spellcaster, and if you are, well, I hope you bring some healing potions or something. You have to pay the price for having the capability of 9th level magic in one class and 7th level magic in the other (or 9th in both if you're a wizard/druid and take levels in arcane heirophant). I think that's a reasonable sort of price for the power. Generally speaking, you're going to probably focus on one sort of magic over the other when you finish the class, so it mostly is a matter of which side is more important.

    My question to you, is what do you think of the class features themselves in relation to other prestige classes you've seen?

    -X
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Mystic Theurge [PrC]

    Well let's see...

    Double Cast is effectively a free +4 metamagic. While fine as a capstone (within this particular class), I would just have it scale up to that, instead of getting it all right away. Could help fill in dead levels too. Maybe something like shadow evocation, where the spells have a lower percentage of power?

    Combined Spell Power is fine and necessary. To fill in dead levels you could steal from the ultimate magus and give +1 caster level to the class with the lower caster level at certain levels.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Mystic Theurge [PrC]

    Your version may well be more equil to other classes and probelbly more fun to play than the standert version, becouse you get more than just the dubbel spell groth. It seems to be focusd on the standert version of wiz/clr bevore taking the prestise class. Other combonations are however posibal in the origional version. Even a bard/ranger multiclas could become one (altough this would be unlikly). Maybe it is posibel to hafe sevral diferent posebiletys of development depending on the clases you had beforehand?
    Last edited by Dalek Zek; 2009-02-08 at 11:19 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Mystic Theurge [PrC]

    A note to all posters: please know how to spell the words you are typing and try to take a quick read over your work, you're giving the rest of the net a bad name.

    That said, it is a great improvement on the original, and I could make a character who could get in by fifth level, rather than seventh, so, I will definitly try to get my DM to use this class.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Mystic Theurge [PrC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Guy View Post
    A note to all posters: please know how to spell the words you are typing and try to take a quick read over your work, you're giving the rest of the net a bad name.

    That said, it is a great improvement on the original, and I could make a character who could get in by fifth level, rather than seventh, so, I will definitly try to get my DM to use this class.
    Hey now, let's be nice here. We're all here for love of a game. His profile says he's from Europe, so I think we can cut him a little slack. I agree, spellcheck is nice, but it happens. Definitely isn't his first language.

    Anyhow, how could you get into it by 5th? It's designed to allow entry after 6th level (for 7th level). I'm glad you like the class. I'm currently playtesting it now with a fellow in my group.

    -X
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Mystic Theurge [PrC]

    Wizard 2/Cleric 1 *Get Alternate Source Spell/ Wiz 3

    Alternate SS allows you to make your arcane spells count as divine, or vice versa.

    2nd level arcane and divine by fourth level.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Mystic Theurge [PrC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Guy View Post
    Wizard 2/Cleric 1 *Get Alternate Source Spell/ Wiz 3

    Alternate SS allows you to make your arcane spells count as divine, or vice versa.

    2nd level arcane and divine by fourth level.
    There's a catch, though - quite a lot of DM's don't like Dragon Magazine as a source. You might try, instead, Wiz-3/Cleric-1/Mystic Theurge-X, picking up Southern Magician (Races of Faerūn) at 3rd. Works similarly. Of course, there's a catch with that, too - it's a regional feat specific to a particular setting.

    Mind you - early entry is one of the only two ways to break the power curve using MT as an actual class... and you can't really hold a designer accountable for every single source out there.
    Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2009-02-10 at 08:24 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Mystic Theurge [PrC]

    Well, random feats in setting specific sourcebooks aside (as a DM, I'd never allow that feat to work like that), good work around. I'm leary on using 3.0 materials (which is what I suspect that feat is, probably from some Forgotten Realms or Dragon Magazine source) in the first place with 3.5 based mechanics, and I especially am leary of things that actively destroy game balance, especially when the class itself balances out your caster level.

    But to each their own. This isn't just my game, after all. I just hope you have fun with it :)

    -X
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Mystic Theurge [PrC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    Why not make it 14 levels long?
    I considered it. It's a little irregular, but hey, we're homebrewers. We do the irregular. So to anyone who follows this thread, what say you all? Make it 14th level and implement a few new tweaks on the class?

    -X
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Mystic Theurge [PrC]

    Well, yeah. That would cut down on one of the original MT's annoying aspects.

    Of course, then you've got even more spells to use per day. I suggest thinking of another capstone that would let you use those unusable slots for something flavorful.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Mystic Theurge [PrC]

    14 levels sounds good...
    As for an alternate capstone... well with the double casting helping you burn through stuff SLIGHTLY faster and the fact that if you can't figure out SOMETHING to do with the "extra" spell slots you probably need to stick to playing a single classed character anyway... note that I am not saying that all of the spell spamming is going to be efficient just that it is more than nothing, and it kinda goes along with the traditional feel of the class...
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Mystic Theurge [PrC]

    Reminds me of the red mage in FF Tactics Advanced & A2, with doublecast and all...
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Mystic Theurge [PrC]

    Maybe a method to burn a divine spell of equal level to the arcane spell you're casting to apply a metamagic feat to it? Or vice versa? With, say, max spell level adjust on the metamagic equal to 1/2 the spell level?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Mystic Theurge [PrC]

    Okay!

    I've extended the levels out to 14th, added an additional use of Double Cast at 13th level, added in two new class features: Arcano-Divine Metamagic, and Improved Arcane Disciple. I just need a capstone and I'm stuck, any suggestions?

    Please let me know what you think of the two new class features as well. Arcano-Divine Metamagic is more or less the same system from the Ultimate Magus (I'm not too sure on the name, if anyone's got better suggestions I'm open to it). Improved Arcane Disciple is just building on the entry feat requirement.

    Thoughts, suggestions, and critiques welcome.
    -X
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Mystic Theurge [PrC]

    Capstone, Primal Fire, instituted. I like it well enough, but it is blatantly a modified version of the archmage's Arcane Fire.

    Let me know what you all think!

    -X
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Mystic Theurge [PrC]

    Like the extension of the PrC, hate the capstone. It doesn't allow you to burn through spell slots faster as you're still using one spellslot per standard action, no matter what you do. And at level 20, as a wiz 17/clr 17, you've got better rays. 14d6 unnamed damage against a single target in exchange for a 9th level spell? Pass.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Mystic Theurge [PrC]

    I like the capstone as a class feature, but you're right, it's not at all perfect for the class. It's something which is better than nothing atm.

    I was also toying with the idea of adding the ability at level 20 to allow the character to freely memorize spells from divine to arcane and vice versa. I.e. if he needs an extra 5th level wizard spell, he can memorize it in 5th cleric magic.

    Thoughts?

    -X
    Last edited by ErrantX; 2009-02-11 at 11:19 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Mystic Theurge [PrC]

    Quote Originally Posted by ErrantX View Post
    I like the capstone as a class feature, but you're right, it's not at all perfect for the class. It's something which is better than nothing atm.

    I was also toying with the idea of adding the ability at level 20 to allow the character to freely memorize spells from divine to arcane and vice versa. I.e. if he needs an extra 5th level wizard spell, he can memorize it in 5th cleric magic.

    Thoughts?

    -X
    Someone mentioned Alternative Source Spell earlier, and that's basically what it does (but reduces your caster level by 1 if you do so).
    Last edited by Siosilvar; 2009-02-11 at 11:25 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Mystic Theurge [PrC]

    I like it more than the current ability, but it doesn't scream capstone. Penultimate ability, yes, but I think a capstone is as flashy as it is powerful.

    I think you should look into tinkering with metamagic. Not Incantatrix-style meddling, but something like Fax was talking about. Or swapping wiz spells for domains/cures. Or spending a full round action and losing a spell to grant another spell a +X to its DC where X is the level of the sacrificed spell/2. (So +1 for a 2nd level spell, or +4 for an 8th.) Or a maginuke (basically, a triplecast 1/day)
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    Default Re: [3.5] Revised Mystic Theurge [PrC]

    I think I'm just going to forgo a capstone because I just can't come up with something. I may just move double casting back a level or something for the entire progression so that it's 5th use lands on 14. I dunno, I am just drawing a blank.

    -X
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