3.5 Guild Thief

[herrhauptmann]

Edit: Working on a new thief, and I've seen several builds that recommend using 'guild thief' or 'guild enforcer'. Something along those lines.

Where can I find this prestige class?

[Tam_OConnor]

Well, there's the Nightsong Enforcer (full BAB and Sneak attack every three levels) and Nightsong Infiltrator (Rogue extension) in Complete Adventurer.

Also, the Guild Thief (Shadow Thief?) in the Player's Guide to Faerun (I think), as well as the Zhentarim Spy in the same book.

[herrhauptmann]

They're not what I was looking for, but i think I can use the Zhent spy for some interesting opportunities.

Thanks Tam.

[Greymane]

If you like the Zhent Spy (who wouldn't?), check out the Spy Master in Complete Adventurer.

[herrhauptmann]

Might try the master spy instead/as well.

This character is being built to replace a current character in a high level campaign which has a minimum of roleplay relying on dice rolling.
Combat optimization is a must though, as evidenced by one guy who has already suffered two deaths.
Lvl 15 human paladin (started at 14 instead of 15 because character was completed late)
Lvl 15 elan psion blaster (was 16, but got level drained)
Lvl 16 dwarven defender (me)
Level 14 something. (Was an ecl 15 catfolk scout, then elf fighter, now he's something)


Want to get something that can take care of traps, scout, and hit very hard. (maxing out sneak attack)

[Temp.]

FYI, Guild Thief is in the 3.0 Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, pg 45. It's an easy-entrance 5-level Rogue class that trades 2 skill points per level for Leadership bonuses and a couple feats. [edit: looking back, I see someone already pointed this out. Meh.]

If I were to build a character like you're talking about, I'd probably go Rogue into Spymaster into Montebank from Complete Scoundrel. At level 14, it would have 6d6 sneak attack; [Improved] Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus and Deceitful would be required, leaving one feat slot. I'd use it for Craven (CoR) for 14 extra damage per attack, Gnomish Quickrazor proficiency (RoS) for stealth attack fun or Crippling Strike (CAd) to reduce targets to a standard action per round.

Or you could just go Rogue/Spymaster, maybe resolving into Assassin. It would free up some skill points and a feat, which could be used to stack Craven and Crippling strike. Assassin might be a better deal for Poison use and the Alter Self spell, both of which would help.

[DrizztFan24]

Or you could just go Rogue/Spymaster, maybe resolving into Assassin. It would free up some skill points and a feat, which could be used to stack Craven and Crippling strike. Assassin might be a better deal for Poison use and the Alter Self spell, both of which would help.

I am afraid I can never suggest going into Assassin. You get rid of some of your awesome rogue skills for what was thought to be an awesome death attack. It really really stinks. Anything above a mook will pass the save and
the DM can totally stick it to you with the description of death attack. You would do much better going with a TWF and using some of the items form the DMG. There is a rapier that deals 1 Con dmg per hit and one sword that will grant you +4 attack and dmg if you qualify for a sneak attack. It never actually said you have to perform a sneak attack so you even get the damage and attack vs undead.

[Temp.]

I am afraid I can never suggest going into Assassin. You get rid of some of your awesome rogue skills for what was thought to be an awesome death attack. It really really stinks. Anything above a mook will pass the save and
the DM can totally stick it to you with the description of death attack. You would do much better going with a TWF and using some of the items form the DMG. There is a rapier that deals 1 Con dmg per hit and one sword that will grant you +4 attack and dmg if you qualify for a sneak attack. It never actually said you have to perform a sneak attack so you even get the damage and attack vs undead.

The point is not Death Attack. The point is spells--even if you don't cast them, they remove the failure chance on some distinctly Roguish wands. Full Sneak Attack progression makes Assassin shine a bit more than Rogue 6-9 in my book. Once Rogue Special Abilities come into the equasion, it's a little less clear-cut. Even then, Hide in Plain Sight makes the Assassin more appealing to me than the Rogue.

[herrhauptmann]

Thanks for the help guys.
Since we're playing a good campaign, and it has a paladin, I can't play an evil character (no assassins). But I think I could get away with it using the Zhent Spy's deep cover identity. Lets me emulate the alignment of my cover so as to escape detection. Assuming I'm reading that right.

Part of the problem with making a rogue is that we're in the underdark. So according to DM, that nerfs things like 'hide in shadows'. Since everything is dark, everyone just uses darkvision, so I'll be found immediately. Probably also wrecks the shadowjump class feature of a shadowdancer.
Taking the feat darkstalker should negate that, but I don't want to waste a feat if I can avoid it. Either that, or we have to get our paladin to carry around a nice glowing sword so he can create shadows.

Things purchased will include ghost strike weapons, and greater demolition crystals, so I can even sneak attack undead and constructs.
Custom magic items are allowed, so I'm wondering how much it would cost to enchant an item to grant the use of certain ToB maneuvers and stances.

[sombrastewart]

Thanks for the help guys.
Since we're playing a good campaign, and it has a paladin, I can't play an evil character (no assassins). But I think I could get away with it using the Zhent Spy's deep cover identity. Lets me emulate the alignment of my cover so as to escape detection. Assuming I'm reading that right.

Use the Avenger class Wizards has on their own website; all the benefit of the assassin, plus you can play nice with the paladin:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a

Part of the problem with making a rogue is that we're in the underdark. So according to DM, that nerfs things like 'hide in shadows'. Since everything is dark, everyone just uses darkvision, so I'll be found immediately. Probably also wrecks the shadowjump class feature of a shadowdancer.

Alright, from the SRD (emphasis mine):

Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

At 8th level, an assassin can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow.

That's kind of the point of the ability. In my opinion, handwaving something like that wrecks important class abilities.

[Smeggedoff]

Are you sure your DM is saying that there aren't any shadows in the underdark and not just pointing out that since everything in the underdark has darkvision, they can see into shadows perfectly well?
imo a shadowdancer in the underdark would be fun as you could argue that EVERYTHING is in shadow, light source or not

[Gorbash]

one sword that will grant you +4 attack and dmg if you qualify for a sneak attack. It never actually said you have to perform a sneak attack so you even get the damage and attack vs undead.

Not really.

SRD:

A +1 short sword with a thin, dull gray blade, this weapon provides a +4 bonus on its wielder’s attack and damage rolls when he is making a sneak attack with it.

[herrhauptmann]

Gorbash,
I think I know what Drizztfan is saying here. Anytime I'm making an attack that qualifies for sneak attack, I get the bonuses, even if the victim is immune to sneak attack. Say for being elemental, undead, or wearing heavy fortification armor. But there are likely some who will say that the +4 damage counts as precision based damage, and therefore doesn't work on enemies immune to sneak attack.

Hmmm.... creatures immune to sneak attack are also immune to sudden strike right? (They should be, since sudden strike counts as, and stacks with sneakattack for certain feats and PrCs.) What about skirmish damage.

[enygmatic_me]

Part of the problem with making a rogue is that we're in the underdark.

It might be a little late to suggest this, but have you though of just getting a Ring of the Darkhidden? Negate Darkvision completely and you don't need to worry about hiding. Your DM might increase the item price as it is significantly more powerful as an item in a campaign that relies heavily on Darkvision, but if you can afford it then it is one of, if not the, top magic items a rogue should have.

If you aren't married to the idea of rogue you might want to think about Scout. It's blindsense/blindsight abilities are near priceless in a setting like that. Add in all the movement abilities, camoflage for the ability to hide in any natural surrounding, and skirmish with a bow/crossbow and you are a rather formidable foe in the Underdark.