Erfworld 141 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 128

[Chaotic Descent]

This isn't Charlie, it's his Archons. And they're not the only people who can act across zones - Maggie was all set to smash Ansom in the Courtyard even while she's in the Dungeon.

GK forces can move across the GK zones at just about any point (That is something that makes sense to us.), and Maggie has some pretty powerful thinkamancy powers or something. It's not surprising to expect her to try and psych out Ansom.

Ansom and Charlie's archons do NOT have that power. We did see Charlie's archons working cross-zone, but I now remember that one of the archons was beside Ansom to channel the attack, so it's not as if they attacked from a separate zone. They've only shown cross-zone/hex powers as channels. This isn't the same thing. This power of theirs to work across a zone without anyone in the other zone to channel the receiving effect is unprecedented. I don't know that it shouldn't be, but it sure seems fanciful. I'm also surprised that they can do such a thing if it's not their turn. The two things combined just make it hard to swallow.
Some people are arguing that the archon's ability is not one limited to combat turns. It's disgustingly powerful though. That they can send a unit's bonus into another zone. It just seems like it should be something limited to a combat turn. Ah well.

[teratorn]

That they can send a unit's bonus into another zone. It just seems like it should be something limited to a combat turn. Ah well.

No they can't. They are just showing pretty pictures. They are not attacking nor giving direct bonus to anyone.

[ericgrau]

Okay now I'm just getting tired of the wild swings back and forth. It might be more impressive if we, the audience, knew the rules of how the Erfworld game works, but as it is any random thing can happen to make the battles flip to one side or another and even if it's not all made up it may as well be.

But that's just today. Who knows where the strip will go from here.

[BarGamer]

I think the intent here was to give Maggie a problem to solve. We had Sizemore do his thing to take care of a small problem. Now to up the ante, we have a bigger problem that requires a bigger solution. This may have come out of nowhere, but I'm willing to bet that it's just a big set-up to show off how good Maggie is. Keep in mind, once this problem is solved, things will be back to the status quo: in Parson's favor. Perhaps even MORE in his favor.

As far as solving the problem goes, Maggie is able to use spells at her own discretion. So a simple confusion spell would cause miss-miss-miss-miss-FAILURE! and perhaps the infantry will get a bonus.

This has my vote. Would be just horrendously stupid for Parson to be enslaved to Charlie because of DDR. Unless he does a Hamsterdance?

Even better, Maggie shows us her moves. XD John Travolta-ish Goldfinger dance, plz?

[Lamech]

It will be really funny if Jack and Stanley are back with a viel...
CRACK-THOOM: -1 to Ansoms

Anyway, it looks to me like Ansom has landed or is at least close to the ground, and is in fact leading all those troops. That would make sense, and give the coalition a chance; the coalition would have dance, leadership, and artifact buffs. I thought Ansom was going to disco, and lead the troops, (or attempt to hit Wanda/Parson and die horribly) and I see no problem with making a DDR joke in the process.

More importantly this is an action scene and while it is set to a battle, this really is a fight between casters and warlords the troops are background. Like any fight scene it can change very quickly and belivably. And do we even know the winner? Parson says its game, but we don't know the winner, it may be a caster stomps Ansom.

[Architect]

Parson still has the payoff(?) from his Foolamancer long-shot: The Tool is on his way back. He should arrive in one turn. Artifact bonus + Foolamancer = p0wnage. That doesn't seem like a particularly convincing win to me. It would be more convincing to onlookers (particularly to Charlie) if the "Perfect Warlord" actually wins the battle without Stanley. Parson will go from "want to have" to "must have" in Charlie's eyes. That can be a good or bad thing.

The coalition is already seriously cracked. They've gone from "overwhelming victory" to "close fight" If this turn ends with huge losses for them, they'll probably pull out, even though they might still have a decent chance of taking GK by continuing to press on. Stanley's forces are decimated. His uncroaked will have lifespans measured in turns. Losing even more forces might seriously destabilize their kingdoms, spoils or no spoils. (I wonder if Ansom has considered that?) The ironic thing is that there's no real treasury left. If they knew that, they probably would have bugged out already.

Parson and his artifact/magic item are the only really valuable things to take in this fight. Of course, Charlie has probably included them in his new contract terms with Jetson. Considering his incredible fees, Charlie is going to be the only side to come out ahead, no matter who wins.

[jindra34]

At this point I have two questions:
1. What is the disadvantage of Dance-Fighting?
and
2. Does Parson have a way of exploiting that disadvantage?

My reasoning goes like this, Dance-Fighting provides a bonus. As bonuses are good there must be some reason why not every warlord knows it or uses it in every battle. Thus it becomes a matter of whether or not this was in Parson's battle possibilites plan.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Ansom doesn't have a chance! Old fashioned choreography should make for better dance fighting than silly DDR dancing any day.

[MadMaw]

Don't know if anyone else noticed, but the Superfluous Elves have been called into action. Might be an indication that the RCC is running out of troops, not to mention the Superflues Elf commander doesn't look too happy about the situation.

We've seen the Archons dace-fight before, in Vinnie's vision of their destruction of Stanley's flight to FAQ. The ability for troops to follow other units moves ... I don't think we haven't seen that. I guess you could argue that, although the mechanism differs, Wanda's croakamancy link is making the zombies follow her moves in the same way the giant DDR board makes the Jetstone troops and Ansom (who doesn't appear to be a dancer) follow the archons.


The Foolamancy scroll seems like the obvious counter to this gambit by Ansom. But maybe a dance-fight can't be interrupted or interfered with once initiated (would kind of make sense as the obvious counter to a dance fight would be to rush in and slaughter them or blast them with arrows/magic before they can finish it ... but then again, the DDR arrows technically aren't part of the dance fight, just a light-show by the archons ... hmmm).

[fendrin]

What a load of bunk.

Not the page, after my initial fan-boi disappointment that Parson wasn't metaphorically bashing Ansom's head in with a hamster hat, I started to appreciate it. More on that later.

No, I mean the whining about this page. I will grant that the pacing might be a little too quick (a page or even just a couple of panels more to show the force of Parson's plan would have been nice), but nothing in this page is out-of-whack with what we have seen in the comic.

1. Ansom has dance-fight skills: he's the booping chief warlord of a major side. Ansom not having at least a basic proficiency in dance-fighting would be like a modern soldier not having at least a basic proficiency with every weapon or technology that they are likely to be called on to use.

2. Ansom flies up to the archons and back. It's his turn, he obviously hasn't used much move, so where's the problem?

3. The archons can communicate across zone/hex boundaries. Thinkamancy would be nigh useless for communication if it were restricted to the caster's hex, don't you think?

4. A warlord with some sort of mental link-up to their units can confer their dance-fight skills to those units. One word: Thriller.

5. Thinkamancers can establish a link between minds. Well, yeah. The trimancer link, or less intense, the direct mental communication between Parson and Charlie.

So what's the big deal? It adds up, dunnit?

Why do I like this page? Simple.
Ansom is finally showing that he has a head on his shoulders, and doesn't just take plays out of a playbook like a cut-rate quarterback. He has a problem: Parson is neutralizing his leadership. Without the leadership bonus his troops don't stand a chance. So what does he do? First he keeps Parson busy by utilizing his primary asset: numbers (any officer worth their weight knows they may have to order troops to their death in order to win a war... it sucks, but that's war). Then he comes up with an innovative way to confer a bonus to his troops without exposing his leadership corps to Sizemore's strike force. He flies up to the Archons and explains his innovative idea to them, then flies down to lead his troops in battle.

On an unrelated note: We see troops of the 3 main human sides: Yellow for Jetstone, blue for SofaKing, and red for... whatever side the crapped-on red warlord lady. Seeing those colored shirts... think we're in for another StarTrek reference (we've had what, 2 so far? The teleporter and Ensign Toast).

[Horatio@Bridge]

I have to agree that this comic is somewhat wanting compared to the last one. I like the comic, and I've defended Ansom in the past, but I have to be honest and say that this particular comic just struck me as off. If I had to say, I think it's the commentary from Parson. The reversal is great, the joke is hilarious, but the "game over" comment...just makes things feel too much like a rollercoaster. Technically speaking, so did Parson's gloating in earlier strips. We're relying on Parson to be levelheaded and give us a fairly reliable reading of the situation (Stanley's been the one to freak out in the past, while Parson has always been steady). Having him go all "Win! Suck... Win!" on us all of the sudden is detracting from the story. I wouldn't say necessarily get rid of the reaction altogether, but rather to moderate it. A simple "Oh, boop" would have sufficed, I think.

Still, I'm enjoying the story, and that's a fairly minor complaint. Keep up the good work! b^.^b

[Gez]

I love how people are disappointed whenever Team Ansom scores a point.

[The Minx]

I have to admit that the whole sequence of the battle within the castle has been stretching my sense of belief in the fantasy world. My understanding is that Erfworld is governed by turn-based strategy game rules first and foremost (with the exception of Parson, who is beyond the rules). Weird stuff like having an ally unit (Charlie's archons) sending in-flight dance fighting support for a leader unit over a range of stacks for an alliance army - all organised on the fly in the middle of a turn - starts making me doubt whether there's any rhyme or reason to the rules of Erfworld.

I think I'm with Tideslinger on this - it seems the universe rules are being made up to service plot twists rather than build the plot upon the rules. That's not necessarily a bad way to write the story, but it does make me think a bit less of the setting.

Of course it all might be explained (perhaps via Parson) sometime in the next couple of dozen pages. But for now I'm feeling whatever meta-players are playing this strategy game of Erfworld lost the ruleset and are kinda winging it right now.

Why do people keep saying this? There is no justification for making such a claim. Rob and Jamie state that they have written the rules of Erfworld in advance, and posts such as these are essentially accusing them of being liars. It is not appropriate unless you have some way of backing it up.

The only thing that the turn based system prohibits is movement between hexes and sectors when it is not your turn. That is all! There is nothing that has shown us, nor is there anything that has been claimed which would require that people cannot cast spells off turn. Moreover, we know that information can be relayed across zones off-turn. In this case, the Archons are using Foolamancy spells to relay information and instructions from Ansom to the ground troops.

Granted that this page is not as cool as the previous two, but that's not important, it is a small part of a larger ensemble which will be obvious in good time.

[Centurin]

So....

Just as things start to get interesting again, Ansom pulls out another Dues ex machina. Can't say I didn't expect it. *sigh*

You know, at this point the authors should be making a joke of it. They should have Parson screaming, "Another Dues Ex!", and punch a hole in a nearby wall. Now THAT would be funny.

[SteveD]

You know, at this point the authors should be making a joke of it. They should have Parson screaming, "Another Dues Ex!", and punch a hole in a nearby wall. Now THAT would be funny.

Please don't encourage them.

Don't want to join in the haters vs the fanbios argument, nor risk sounding like an arrogant so-and-so by putting myself above it all...but after re-reading the strip I still can't shake off my initial feeling of disappointment.

I think I can feel what Rob and Jamie are going for...the tension of a close-fought fight, the cut and thrust of two commanders making move and counter move. It just doesn't seem to be working like that.

Its Parson's comment in that last panel that does it, I think. "That might be game." So...what happened to all that 'We'll fight them on the beaches' stuff we had just a few strips ago? Is it really game-over? Obviously not.

[Trazoi]

Why do people keep saying this? There is no justification for making such a claim. Rob and Jamie state that they have written the rules of Erfworld in advance, and posts such as these are essentially accusing them of being liars. It is not appropriate unless you have some way of backing it up.

The only justification is that's the impression I'm getting from the latest batch of comics. I'm not calling Rob and Jamie liars about not having planned this in advance (I haven't actually read them write this, but I had assumed there was some planning given Parson's Klogs). All I'm saying is that this to-and-fro action where fortunes are reversed every second comic just feels to me like rules are being twisted to serve the drama rollercoaster. I'm not ruling out there isn't hard game logic behind all the decisions, it's just that I, personally, am having trouble imagining this at the meta-level as some kind of computer strategy game. Hence that's why I'm posting my opinion here as a reader.

I suspect my discomfort is mostly triggered by the balance of the battle shifting so quickly between Ansom and Parson. I don't mind Ansom or Parson pulling out a clever move, but when each one comes so quickly and seems to drastically shift the course of the battle it's starting to feel a bit too chaotic and unpredictable for strategy. I agree that Parson's ending line made this new twist seem far more powerful than it would have been with him saying something like "Oh boop. That was unexpected." And I also think that if Parson starts to plan a counter next comic it won't seem so bad. But at the moment, all these new rules shifting the battle are starting to be more fatiguing than dramatic.

[Oslecamo]

Ansom is finally showing that he has a head on his shoulders, and doesn't just take plays out of a playbook like a cut-rate quarterback.

In Ansom's defense, he already had shown to be able to improvise in dire situations:

1-Surrounded by dwagons? Cirurgical strike with his strongest units to wipe out the wounded dwagons, even when Vinnie sugested to either pull back or turle in.

2-Walls covered by uncroacked infantry? Quick charge with super anti uncroacked weapon, then call in Charlie reinforcments when the enemy reveals their last flying units.

Were they questionable strategies? Yes, but they did work. Ansom has shown time and time again he has the guts to make hard decisions in hard cirscumstances, and come victorious on top of that.

Anyway, does anybody gets the feel this is looking more and more like some large scale 3.X D&D where you can get all kind of cheesy broken combinations if you optimize enough? So far we had:

-The super observation table of Stanley the tool.
-Perfect warlord summoning.
-Charlie's archons who seem to be able to do ANYTHING.
-Mancers keep showing to have more and more tricks up their sleeves.
-All those crazy bonuses combinations and stacking.
-The traps in the tunnels.
-Making nondance trained infantry dance.

Seems really a lot more complex than most table wargames I've seen.

[Architect]

Parson is making do with what he knows. He's not familiar with the ruleset, yet. Till then, he's bound to underestimate/overestimate forces. Nevertheless, he's doing very well, considering. This is supposed to be a hard scenario, so while I think Parson does have to beat him convincingly and should do so without the Tool, it's okay if it comes down to the wire. Ansom is a royal boop, not an idiot.

Personally, I'm hoping for a Parson vs. Ansom showdown. Ansom's a higher level warlord, but I'm going to guess that he's too reliant on the Arkenpliers... and there's no guarantee that they'll work on Parson.

[shadowdemon_lord]

That...wasn't a deus ex, in fact the counter is already in the works, has been foreshadowed, and will be delivered next strip. Actually, I think Ansom has been played again, although Parson for once is underestimating the power of his own plans. Ansom has just put himself front and center. This not only maximizes his offensive power (he can go to town on the uncroaked when he gets his pliers back (which he will)), but also makes him a big neon target with flashing lights and a siren. Normally not a problem, however he has opened himself up to attack by both Maggie and Sizemore. I think he has little doubt he could escape Sizemores clutches (he could just go up), but he isn't considering the offensive implications of Maggie, and he doesn't know that she now has some (no doubt highly attack oriented) thinkamancy scrolls to throw around. I could see a one, two punch taking him out (Maggie, followed by Sizemore, Parson, Bog Roll and maybe the Kiss knights on Spidews). He might be the most powerful unit on the field, but throw enough stuns and damage at him and he'll go down just like the rest.

[Trazoi]

That...wasn't a deus ex, in fact the counter is already in the works, has been foreshadowed, and will be delivered next strip. Actually, I think Ansom has been played again, although Parson for once is underestimating the power of his own plans.

If Parson's last staement "that could very well be game" was a statement of triumph than despair, then it'll help soothe some of the complaints in this thread.

[eilandesq]

I can see this backfiring on Ansom:

Spoiler

Show

If Maggie fries his brains in a way that utterly screws up his dance steps, bonuses could quickly become penalties (not to mention that dancing badly might make it harder to fight in general), leading to Ansom's infantry being obliterated in short order.

[kunou126]

I'm not suprised that another lame pop culture reference is used to turn the tide of the battle yet again. It's really getting obnoxious.

In fact, the only thing that can make up for this strip is if DDR fails factor in a bonus or count as dance-fighting, as DDR should fail to count as dancing.

I have to admit, Charlie's troops have too much affect on the outcome of this story, to the point that it is beyond old.

I'm tired of seing the same one trick pony side show. Ring the gong... lets see the next act.

[Kender Wizard]

I have heard it written() several times in this thread so far that this is a violation of the rules as they have been presented to us. Instead, I would say that some assumptions we held about this universe were invalid. Let me illustrate:

Prior assumptions - casting - Abilities that confer direct effects on their recipients require both caster and target to be in the same hex. This is backed up somewhat by the explanation of foolamancy veiling, with the quotes of 'needing a foolamancer in the stack you want to veil' and 'can't cast on the enemys turn'. Some specific communication-only effects are exceptions, like the thinkagrams.

Current assumptions - casting - For game purposes, each caster has a set series of spells or abilities that he might use, such as standard wizards spells for dnd. And, like in dnd, each spell has its own range, duration, aoe, and so on. This would mean that the limitations referenced above for foolamancy veiling would refer to only that - a foolamancers veil ability or spell. In support of this, note that thinkagrams, another thinkamancy special, appear to have unlimited range and don't require line of sight.

As for the statement that the archons would be just putting up some music and floating arrows but not directly affecting the troops or Ansom... Prolly incorrect. Given Parsons statement that almost nobody in the coalition can dance-fight, it looks like the archons are using thinkamancy to allow Ansoms' commander dancefighting ability (yeah, I bought into that) to be used by all of his troops. Force-multipliers, as Parson pointed out. All of which means that the archons are giving units an ability they don't normally possess using magic, on units outside of an area the archons cannot leave, when it is not the archons turn. So yeah, that seems like a cheapshot.

So, yeah, this is a huge shock with major implications, but would not have violated any previously well established rules. The irritation is that this was in no way clear from the beginning, and when presented this way, comes across as a rules violation even when it isn't. Also, it is a real letdown to be presented with another ride on the victory/disaster seesaw when what I really wanted was round 2 of Ansom rushing in like he always does and getting blindsided. This move was far more unorthodox than I expected from him, I admit. That seesaw is starting to give me friction blisters.

[kreszantas]

Things that make you go huh?... that should be the title, there was a mild foreshadow that the carpet was vital in 2 places, 1)http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0079.html where it is rolled out, but who knew what function other than a bed or to be able to be rode either way. 2) Ansom's instance on the Archons getting the carpet. Once he was removed he became a ground unit.

DDR (is/was/or still is) being a fad just like a lot of the references used, often comes and goes very quickly. The only part I do not like about it is that it directs factions not under his banner as well all the colors being able to step.

I knew there was something up with the uniforms color scheme but could not place it, now I know. Those of us who dont like this strip may be ones that do not really like DDR. This is well within Archons abilities, come on portable PDA's with touch screens... so they should be able to project this (with the right number involved)

This is cycle 3 now things will come full circle back to Parson by the "rule of three" law if they are going to throw that in the hat as well, maybe we will find out what the 'special' is after all. Parson seem to be appalled at Ansom and he also put too many eggs in one basket with 'No one on Ansom's side can dance fight' statement. So that had to be balanced back out.

[Kholdstare]

I don't see how everyone keeps viewing Ansom's new move as a deus ex counter. Parson knows that DDR is a game that if you take the wrong steps can give you "Game Over" so penalties come into affect. Ansom obviously has some skill with it but his improvised counter obviously has turned into hurting himself.

Fill the courtyard with enough troops and with the DDR bonus high enough to even out effectiveness of each force, Ansom has the advantage of numbers, while Parson has nothing that major. Maggie will obviously just hit him with a good thinkamancer scroll,penalties galore, and that could very well be game since such a slaughter during a garrison is most likely inescapable.

I'm thinking that since perfecting a DDR scenario has a huge bonus,it definitely has to have penalties, so this was a once assured victory gamble turned into a hapless slaughter.

[Trazoi]

This is well within Archons abilities, come on portable PDA's with touch screens... so they should be able to project this (with the right number involved)

The problem is not the Archon's projection abilities. It's that in this case it's having an in-game effect. There's a difference between projecting props in order to look cool and using projection to give bonuses to troops.

So far my understanding of dance fighting was that it was a bonus the leader gave to a stack of troops under their control in their zone (or hex or whatever is used; I'm a bit unsure about the zones in Erfworld). Here the Archons appear to be giving a dance fight bonus to an ally (i.e. not their own faction) in a different zone (they're in Airspace, Ansom and his troops are in the Courtyard). That appears to be a rule we haven't seen before (correct me if I'm wrong ). It's not something that runs completely counter to how leadership bonuses could work; I could see bonuses having an effect in different zones. But currently it's looking like a special bonus property that Charlie's Archons have, and they already seem to be overpowered as far as units go.

That's why I'm starting to have trouble wrapping my head around Erfworld. I'm getting the impression that if there was a computer turn based strategy game based on Erfworld, it would need a manual a thousand pages thick.

[Doomduckie]

The posters in this thread are rather right: After my initial irritation, the Archon DDR strategy does make sense- however, it should be nowhere near as good as a perfectly choreographed Thriller performance by Wanda. And I'm hoping that Maggie zaps him and makes him fail the song.

Also, the song that Ansom is doing isn't particularly difficult depending upon the speed of the arrows, if he were using stepmania spread style. Silly Ansom

That said, I wish we could get just a page or two without a reversal. I liked how we suddenly took a break from reversals when Parson and Wanda and Bogroll were talking. If we could see a page or two of battle where someone sticks to a plan it would make the next great idea a commander has a lot less irritating.

[teratorn]

That said, I wish we could get just a page or two without a reversal. I liked how we suddenly took a break from reversals when Parson and Wanda and Bogroll were talking.

We still don't know if this is really a reversal. Depends on Maggie.

When I saw this it was the sheer absurdity of the thing which hit me. If Parson suspected he was in a coma this does it. It's one of the most ridiculous things we have found thus far in Erfworld. It's like if there were a singing bonus and the archons started printing karaoke in the sky. I like it.

[Horatio@Bridge]

If Parson's last staement "that could very well be game" was a statement of triumph than despair, then it'll help soothe some of the complaints in this thread.

Yeah, that would change the tenor of the strip, and make it much more awesome. Now I'm looking forward to next strip again...

[Varthonai]

For everyone wondering about how so much stuff can happen on the fly in the middle of a turn:

I don't think Erfworld turns really work like turns in a TBS game, because Erfworld isn't a game. The characters have minds of their own (so much so that Duty has to be introduced to regulate them) rather than being soulless programs under the command of a Royal or Overlord; hexes have area and volume, rather than being two-dimensional images with a list of units stacked onto them; non-combat discussions can be held in an infinite variety of ways, rather than a single prewritten cutscene.

And to that effect, I think that Erfworld's "turns" really don't effect anything except Move. If it's not your turn, you can't move to another hex or another Zone, but you can do ANYTHING ELSE that you want to. You can move anywhere within your hex, you can attack anything within your hex, you can build stuff inside your hex, etc.; the turns are in real-time, it's just that if it isn't your turn you're fenced into your hex by an invisible barrier. That's why Webinar was able to keep moving up through the Tunnels searching for Sizemore, even though it wasn't Jetstone's turn; it's why Parson was able to send Wanda and the fliers to attack Ansom even though it wasn't GK's turn; and I think it's why Ansom was able to conjure up the DDR screen.

See, I don't think the DDR screen was a specific spell, I think it was just Ansom being creative. He needed a way to give commands to his troops from a distance, and so he improvised one; he asked the Archons to send down colored lights in the shape of arrows. They could just as well have been fireworks, or semaphore, but he worked with the resources at hand.

Because it's turn-based life, rather than a turn-based game, Erfworld's rules aren't so simple that something like this is out of the question. All's fair in war, and this isn't even a particularly egregious breach of warfare conventions; it's not like DDR is against the Geneva convention or anything. Or whatever the Erf equivalent of a Geneva convention is, anyway...

If they DO have an equivalent of the Geneva convention, I'm sure most of the tricks Parson has pulled are on it! Croakamancy and Shockmancy would probably have been the first things to get banned.