OOTS #632 - The Discussion Thread

[David Argall]

The continuity possibility of Roy's resurrection is stunting some people's brains, and preventing them from enjoying what's ACTUALLY taking place in the comic in mere anticipation of a future might-be.

A hundred interesting things have happened since Roy's death, but to some people it's as if the comic froze in time when Roy died.

Which sounds like a good reason to get Roy back.

What "main plot" are people talking about, anyway? The main plot is the adventures of the Order of the Stick - they way they act, interact, work to overcome obstacles and change over time.

This is a side quest, a quite large and involved one, but still just a side quest. It is much like going after the starmetal. The party does a lot of things and essentially goes nowhere.

We've been getting bucketfuls of that. I don't see anything to be unhappy about.

There is a fair amount of "Are we there yet?" involved here. The very knowledge we are going to shift scenes "soon" makes us anxious to make that shift. It's irritating to have to wait even if what we get is pretty good.
But our writer does have a tendency to stretch things out too much. He did so with Haley's speech problem, and he is doing so now with Roy's recovery.
And the idea was dubious from the start. Roy is the center of the story, and his absence is a lack. At a lesser level, we have [or rather we don't have] the interactions among the PCs. V hasn't hit Belkar with Explosive Runes in over 200 pages. The united party simply offers more.

We can hope it is going to end fairly soon, tho I am getting worried the schedule is getting tight.

[Andre Fairchilde]

The pacing has been off since Rich is writing for the books now more than the thrice weekly weekly updates as often as possible comics.

In the books we have the luxury of being able to skip right to the extra material, or right to our favorite plots while here we can't.

[Kaytara]

This is a side quest, a quite large and involved one, but still just a side quest. It is much like going after the starmetal. The party does a lot of things and essentially goes nowhere.

My understanding of 'side quest' is that it is something entirely unrelated to the main plot. Stopping to help out the dirt farmers was a side quest, because it had nothing to do with the Order's goals in general. By contrast, overcoming an obstacle (death of the party leader, separation of the party) that is the direct result of a major event in the main plot (defeat at Azure City) seems like main plot material to me.

By that definition, the dragon's appearance is a side quest, as it has nothing to do with Azure City, Xykon, or the Gates. But people have been complaining about side quests long before the dragon showed up. But if we take Haley's Resistance group and Hinjo's conflict with Kubota, even that can be considered part of the main plot, as it shows the direct repercussions of the Azurites' defeat and the consequences for the noble class and for the stranded survivors. Those stories are by no means unrelated to the main plot and I am overjoyed that Rich is exploring those facets that would otherwise have been very easy to ignore.

He did so with Haley's speech problem, and he is doing so now with Roy's recovery.

I can't speak for everyone, but when I discovered the comic Celia and Haley were just leaving Azure City, so I read smoothly through the speech impediment arc. I thought it had just the right length. Had it been shorter, it would have come off as minor and insignificant. The way it was, though, it did a good job of conveying just how big Haley's psychological issues were and how badly she needed to get over them - to my mind, at least.

And the idea was dubious from the start. Roy is the center of the story, and his absence is a lack. At a lesser level, we have [or rather we don't have] the interactions among the PCs. V hasn't hit Belkar with Explosive Runes in over 200 pages. The united party simply offers more.

I see it differently. Roy provides the framework of the story and a great deal of arcs (including the main plot, indirectly, as it was his dad's meddling that got them into this) were either centred on him or caused by him, but that doesn't mean that the campaign literally revolves around him or that he is the only character that matters. While you may feel that his absence has been a lack, I see it differently - story-wise, it is his very absence that has allowed the other characters and other aspects of the story to evolve in interesting new directions. If he'd been around, it all would've been about him again.

Roy is a great character, but IMO not interesting enough to actually pull off being the MAIN character of this story. His snarky attitude is hilarious, but if everything were centred on him, it would get old very quickly. I, for one, am glad that he is getting a break from the action.

[Silverraptor]

I think the main reason that Rich killed Roy was the fact that he wanted this story arc to be nothing but side quests. If Roy was alive, he'd focus more on the gates then the other members backrounds. Otherwise we would have ended the series with nothing but Roy's story. It's called the Order of the Stick, not the Order of the Roy.

[Xerrik]

Problem is the outsider in question muffs the setup line since there's no way "transfered my conciousness from the lower planes" should make your arms tired unless the somatic components are really over the top (and spell-like abilities have no somatic components in any case).

Presumably the outsider muffing the line IS the joke, I found it amusing, but then I'm familiar with the original.

Well, if the somatic components WERE over the top, it could be compared to a human taking the plane instead of a bird flying.

[Dr.Desastro]

I am just not quite sure, whether the OOTS will rejoin again. Also, I really would like to see Hilgya (?) back (that dwarven Cleric of Loki). Would add a nice touch to the story, should she ever try to go for another date with Durkon.

[Saint Nil]

Thank you Giant for making the purple text easier to read.

[dps]

Is there a pun with the demon names?

It feels like there should be somehow.

I just figured this out--their initial are L, N, and C. Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic, get it?

[Hann]

This was answered earlier in the thread, but here, for convenience's sake:

LEe- Lawful Evil
NEro- Neutral Evil
CEdrik- Chaotic Evil

[SmartAlec]

If (Roy)'d been around, it all would've been about him again.

I might venture an opinion that this arc is about him anyway; it's about what happens when he's not there to act as a leader.

[Lord Seth]

As I've inadvertently started a discussion on the topic of the story moving slowly, I suppose I should at least give my thoughts.

I think it's time for Roy's body to be disintegrated and Gusted-of-Wind, so that his resurrection becomes impossible, so that people FINALLY stop ignoring everything else that's happening merely in anticipation of a plot point that might or might not occur.

It's not a matter of Roy getting resurrected. It's a matter of the plot moving forward, which it hasn't.

The continuity possibility of Roy's resurrection is stunting some people's brains, and preventing them from enjoying what's ACTUALLY taking place in the comic in mere anticipation of a future might-be.

Roy will get resurrected, that's confirmed in the volume 3 commentary. My problem is that it's taking forever. I wouldn't mind the length if it was because of interesting plot lines, but they really haven't been.

A hundred interesting things have happened since Roy's death, but to some people it's as if the comic froze in time when Roy died.

Very few of the things that happened actually mattered. Let's see...
1) We spent time on Roy's afterlife, which served no purpose to the plot.
2) We spent a lot of time on the orcs, which were a Wacky Wayside Tribe. Their main purpose was to spend more time on Therkla, leading us to...
3) We spent a lot of time on Therkla, who had no purpose in the story other than to die, and not really contribute much to the plot. I was thinking she could be interesting, but then the whole thing is thrown out as she dies.
4) We saw what Xykon and Redcloak were up to, which served no purpose other than to say "Hey, look! The villains' story is standing still also!"
5) The potentially interesting story of Haley working on getting Roy resurrected is ruined by one person: Celia. I had some hopes for her being a decent character, but she's become more and more aggravating ever since they left Azure City; Miko never was as annoying as Celia. Miko, I loved to hate. Celia, I just hate. She's idiotic, refuses to accept any responsibility for her actions, is completely arrogant, and other than getting Haley to leave Azure City, she has done nothing but derail the plot. If I ever get around to finishing my review of Order of the Stick I'm working on, believe me that I'll have lots to say about why I hate her character.
6) Making matters even worse, all this is happening after the extremely high quality Battle of Azure City arc, making it even more of a disappointment. This reminds me of season three of Avatar. Season two was awesome and was the whole reason I got into the series. Season three, with its annoying number of filler episodes and all of the problems with the finale, was even more of a disappointment than it would have normally been because of its contrast with the higher quality of season two.
7) To top it all off, the often slow update schedule has exacerbated matters.

Look, I would've been interested in this latest storyline of V's if it had happened 50 or so strips ago, but after so much filler and delaying of resolution, I just find it hard to care much about it.

People bring up Haley's speech impediment, but that at least wasn't a major interference with the main plot and Rich even admitted he would've started with it later on if he could go back and do it again so it didn't last as long. Unfortunately, it seems he hasn't learned from that. I've pretty much concluded that this is all being intentionally stretched out just so it can all fit in the next book which will end with Roy's resurrection.

[Warren Dew]

But our writer does have a tendency to stretch things out too much.

I think that he has gotten better. Immediately after the fall of Azure City, there were some sequences that stretched for a large number of strips without a lot of action. Recently, arcs have been covered in a smaller number of strips, with more action and little dead time, or at least few dead strips, as it were. The story per strip ratio is pretty good at the moment, if one isn't too focused on Roy.

I'd like to get back to a live Roy eventually, but as long as we've got interesting side arcs and don't leave any one group of characters dormant for too long, I'm willing to be patient.

My understanding of 'side quest' is that it is something entirely unrelated to the main plot.

That's not the way I've generally heard it used in gaming circles. To me, a "side quest" is an arc that doesn't advance the main quest directly, but may advance it indirectly.

That said, I do agree that the Azure City resistance wasn't exactly a side quest - but mostly because it wasn't a quest at all. It did illustrate some things about the main story, but it didn't advance the main quest; indeed, it was abandoning the resistance that advanced the main quest.

Roy is a great character, but IMO not interesting enough to actually pull off being the MAIN character of this story.

I believe the author is on record as saying that Roy is the main character of the story.

[Kish]

As I've inadvertently started a discussion on the topic of the story moving slowly, I suppose I should at least give my thoughts.

It's not a matter of Roy getting resurrected. It's a matter of the plot moving forward, which it hasn't.

Roy will get resurrected, that's confirmed in the volume 3 commentary. My problem is that it's taking forever. I wouldn't mind the length if it was because of interesting plot lines, but they really haven't been.

I just hope you recognize that both this assertion and calling the Azure City arc "extremely high quality" are matters of opinion rather than fact. I find it unlikely, personally, that Roy's post-mortem character development serves no purpose to the plot, even if you don't consider it meaningful in and of itself. Belkar's development--and even Belkar losing the Mark of Justice--you don't even mention. Beyond that...

5) The potentially interesting story of Haley working on getting Roy resurrected is ruined by one person: Celia. I had some hopes for her being a decent character, but she's become more and more aggravating ever since they left Azure City; Miko never was as annoying as Celia. Miko, I loved to hate. Celia, I just hate. She's idiotic, refuses to accept any responsibility for her actions, is completely arrogant, and other than getting Haley to leave Azure City, she has done nothing but derail the plot. If I ever get around to finishing my review of Order of the Stick I'm working on, believe me that I'll have lots to say about why I hate her character.

...I confess it rather amuses me that you have such a violently negative reaction to the one character in the comic whose wishes for the comic's immediate development--"Sweep everything else out of the way and resurrect Roy immediately"--are similar to yours, even to her apparent wish for her own screen time to drop to "nothing until the epilogue." I don't think that's a coincidence, either. I'm certain Rich is aware that a vocal segment of his fans want Roy resurrected immediately and are aggravated by anything that doesn't visibly advance toward that goal, and I suspect that, just as he knowingly created Shojo to be a character who shared his personal goal of getting the Order to Azure City, he introduced Celia here as a character who would be unwilling to brook distractions from the "get Roy resurrected" goal, whatever the cost of that focus.

[valce]

Not having followed the comic from day one, I found (when I was catching up) that the pacing really was quite good for a sit-down read-through.

Any faster and things would seem too... jilted.

Yes, it may seem with the delays between each panel that things are going a little slowly, but OOTS is one of those strips that lends well to books and stuff.

[J.Gellert]

Timestop covered the entire island?

I imagine someone has said this before, but if Timestop covered the island, then the dragon is unaffected...

Spoiler

Show

...and V may find himself with absolute power and absolute corruption and absolutely tricked because it will be too late?

[Lamech]

Timestop covered the entire island?

I imagine someone has said this before, but if Timestop covered the island, then the dragon is unaffected...

Time stop doesn't stop time it increases the speed the target by a lot, in this case the island. So V and the fiends and everything else on the island are acting very, very quickly, and could talk for what seems to be hours while only a second passes. To them it looks like time is stopped but really they are just moving quickly.

Hope that clears things up...

[Zanaril]

Timestop covered the entire island?

I imagine someone has said this before, but if Timestop covered the island, then the dragon is unaffected...

Spoiler

Show

...and V may find himself with absolute power and absolute corruption and absolutely tricked because it will be too late?

I think the idea is that they didn't freeze time on the island, they stopped time everywhere else (or created some extra time where they are on the island). It just wasn't particually obvious.

Then again I may be wrong, and as you said that may be their plan all along...

EDIT: Darn, ninja'd! That's what happens when my computer takes two whole minutes to post a reply.

[Lord Seth]

I just hope you recognize that both this assertion and calling the Azure City arc "extremely high quality" are matters of opinion rather than fact. I find it unlikely, personally, that Roy's post-mortem character development serves no purpose to the plot, even if you don't consider it meaningful in and of itself. Belkar's development--and even Belkar losing the Mark of Justice--you don't even mention.

You're right, I did forget to mention the bit about Belkar, which was actually kind of cool. Unfortunately, it doesn't make up for all of the other problems. To pull back the Avatar example, just because the finale looked cool and some parts were interesting doesn't excuse all of its plot holes, deus ex machinas, and hanging plot threads.

...I confess it rather amuses me that you have such a violently negative reaction to the one character in the comic whose wishes for the comic's immediate development--"Sweep everything else out of the way and resurrect Roy immediately"--are similar to yours, even to her apparent wish for her own screen time to drop to "nothing until the epilogue." I don't think that's a coincidence, either. I'm certain Rich is aware that a vocal segment of his fans want Roy resurrected immediately and are aggravated by anything that doesn't visibly advance toward that goal, and I suspect that, just as he knowingly created Shojo to be a character who shared his personal goal of getting the Order to Azure City, he introduced Celia here as a character who would be unwilling to brook distractions from the "get Roy resurrected" goal, whatever the cost of that focus.

You mean like how she derailed the whole thing and Roy would've probably gotten resurrected over 50 strips ago if not for her massive stupidity? Yeah, she's really a character that is making sure Roy gets resurrected fast.

[Kish]

You mean like how she derailed the whole thing and Roy would've probably gotten resurrected over 50 strips ago if not for her massive stupidity? Yeah, she's really a character that is making sure Roy gets resurrected fast.

Really, now. Last time you made that same exact claim in almost the same words, you conceded that you were wrong and Roy's corpse would still be in Azure City while Haley was playing tag with the hobgoblins, not resurrected 50 strips ago, remember? That hasn't changed.

And I didn't say Celia's approach was effective--quite the contrary, actually.

[Kilyle]

Haven't had time to read this thread, but... has anyone noticed this strip as potentially applicable to the current situation?

"...I would employ every shred of my not inconsiderable arcane power to fight for my love."

I don't know how much he plans these stories in advance, but... that might even be foreshadowing.

[Zanaril]

Haven't had time to read this thread, but... has anyone noticed this strip as potentially applicable to the current situation?

"...I would employ every shred of my not inconsiderable arcane power to fight for my love."

I don't know how much he plans these stories in advance, but... that might even be foreshadowing.

I wouldn't doubt that one bit.

EDIT: Is that before or after Sabine talks to those three fiends?

EDIT(again): Nah, after.

[Xerrik]

I think the idea is that they didn't freeze time on the island, they stopped time everywhere else (or created some extra time where they are on the island). It just wasn't particually obvious.

In case anyone's read Artemis Fowl, I'm guessing it would happen like the time stop that they do when they're going to do a blue rinse on the manor. Or something like that.

[GodotIsW8ing4U]

I'm...conflicted about this arc. I love that V's getting some strong characterization, but I'm worried about his/her family.

With the general twist the comic seems to be taking, I wouldn't be particularly surprised if V shows up too late, kills the dragon in a blaze of anger, and then multi-classes into something that will keep him/her from being useless without spells. I'd be rather saddened, but not surprised.

[GodotIsW8ing4U]

Roy's taking longer than expected to get resurrected, but he'll probably get his body back soon enough. It's one of those grand cliches of tabletop RPGs; no PC ever gets left behind for good.

Of course, if there's one thing this strip does, it subverts such cliches as often as it plays them straight...

OH SHI-

[Xerrik]

Roy's taking longer than expected to get resurrected, but he'll probably get his body back soon enough. It's one of those grand cliches of tabletop RPGs; no PC ever gets left behind for good.

True; besides, he has a much better name than either Daigo or Kazumi, so that should count for something. Besides, what would be the point of him being trained by his grandfather if he wasn't going to use some sort of super secret ultimate technique passed down from generation to generation and only able to be used by those with the proper blood to destroy Xykon?

That would be pretty cool.

[Lord Seth]

Really, now. Last time you made that same exact claim in almost the same words, you conceded that you were wrong and Roy's corpse would still be in Azure City while Haley was playing tag with the hobgoblins, not resurrected 50 strips ago, remember? That hasn't changed.

Yes, and she gained some points for me for doing that, then lost all of them for things she did afterwards, then lost even more, then just went straight into "worse than Jar Jar Binks" territory. But I think I'll reserve my complaints about Celia for another thread.

It's a shame, really, as I did have some hopes for Celia, but they were all dashed, then broken into pieces, then set on fire, then thrown into space, then disintegrated.

[Xerrik]

It's a shame, really, as I did have some hopes for Celia, but they were all dashed, then broken into pieces, then set on fire, then thrown into space, then disintegrated.

Did V do it? That would be pretty annoying.

Nice Arcanis avatar.

[RedScholarGypsy]

Maybe all of this has been said before, but eh, I'll say it.

The main conflict I see here is character development vs plot progression. Roy died so the other five could be showcased more and become less one-dimensional, such as talking head V and dumb blond Elan; and so some loose ends could be tied off, like Haley's past, Belkar's curse, and Mama B.Dragon; and so some Chekov's guns could be mounted on the wall, like Xykon's research, Roy's training, and MitD's intelligence. It's been almost 150 comics since Azure City was cloistered, and a lot has been done, whether or not it forwards what we want to be the 'main' goal.

I understand the hate towards Therkla and Celia, but they aren't there to further the plot, they are to further Char Dev. Elan finally grew out of Chaotic Shortbus with the Therkla plotline, and seems to finally be maturing as much as his stats allow him to. Haley's irresponsibility, especially as leader, is highlighted by her lack of honesty to Celia and inability to deal with her and Belkar. "I'm wanted dead in the city by people who have all the priests in their pocket and won't raise roy for us" would have stopped a whole lot of problems, and blaming celia for all of it isn't fair, though it does feel good .

Honestly, I'm glad this is happening. It feels like this has to happen for us to care about trhese characters, and it's being taken care of now so it doesn't jar the flow later. It's like we've reached the top of a plateau with azure city falling, and been driving on the flot top for a while. We're now nearer the drive back down, and it's going to be fast and fun, so everyone make sure they've gone to the bathroom before we start, because we're flooring it.

[Warren Dew]

The main conflict I see here is character development vs plot progression.

I don't think it's character development so much as character exposition. It's not like Vaarsuvius is doing anything differently than would have happened 500 strips ago had the same situation arose, and for the most part, the same goes for the other characters.

I suspect even the character exposition is largely doomed, though. Some people have understood Vaarsuvius' personality all along; those that don't will continue to believe that the mother black dragon is justified.

For the most part what's interesting about the present arcs is still plot: it's just small, somewhat self contained subplots rather than the main plot.

I understand the hate towards Therkla and Celia, but they aren't there to further the plot, they are to further Char Dev.

I disagree, at least in the case of Celia. Celia is specifically there to further the plot, as without her Haley just deals with the moment and does not move things along. That group is closer to resurrecting Roy than they ever have been, and that's not only because Celia got Haley to get off her behind in Azure City, but also because she took the initiative to venture into Greysky city.

[Lord Seth]

I disagree, at least in the case of Celia. Celia is specifically there to further the plot, as without her Haley just deals with the moment and does not move things along. That group is closer to resurrecting Roy than they ever have been, and that's not only because Celia got Haley to get off her behind in Azure City, but also because she took the initiative to venture into Greysky city.

No. For the love of heaven, no. Celia's "initiative" just got Roy turned into a golem and captured, dragging things out. Had Celia not taken that "initiative", they would've made it to Cliffport and gotten Roy resurrected without any trouble.

I understand the hate towards Therkla and Celia,

I personally don't have any hatred towards Therkla. Quite the contrary, I was actually liking her character and was interested to see where her character arc was headed, which is why it was all the more annoying that she died, leaving me wondering why we spent so much time on a character who in the end really didn't amount to anything.

"I'm wanted dead in the city by people who have all the priests in their pocket and won't raise roy for us" would have stopped a whole lot of problems, and blaming celia for all of it isn't fair, though it does feel good .

Haley didn't mention it because it's a secret, first off; she had reasons for keeping it a secret, too. But the thing is, she said, and I quote: "It's a dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets." Why should she need to say more than that? It's perfectly reasonable to blame Celia for the whole thing.