ok, I'm slightly stuck

[Fjolnir]

I'm in the process of rolling up a bard because I'm afraid my current charecter is going to end up getting executed due to the fact that, despite being warned that in this particular instance we are all considered runaway slaves and can be executed for any reason (we got mysteriously teleported to a romanesque coliseum, we escaped from there after being told the local government is going to have us killed) the party insists on doing things to call attention to ourselves (we ambushed a small patrol on a road to get extra gear and faster transport, we had a vague idea of where we were going BUT 2 of our party members ON THE STOLEN HORSE decided to ride up to a house and ask for directions to the next city up the road anyhow)

anyhow I'm limited to core, my stats are very good (rolled 2 18's, 2 17's a 16 and a 14 and our dm allows us to subtract numbers on a 1-1 basis up to a max of 18 so they're all 18's with the exeption of one 10) and I'm assuming I'd be in around level 8 (current high of the party is 10, but that's my charecter, there is a 7 on a new player that missed a big week, most of the party is at 9)

I have 3 real questions
1) should I take 2 perform skills or just take a verbal one (human so assume 11 skillpoints a level)
2) where should I put my stat boosts, as you can see, all even numbers so both would probably go the same place....
3) I have 2 spells for 3rd level picked out charm monster and sculpt sound, what should my third be? (I think I'm going for a controller bard, I don't have too many illusions, and I think I'm taking glibness a little later, I know it's good but I don't think I need it in my arsenal immediatly)


any other advice would be good, but I plan on rolling up a single class CORE bard to this point, and I've decided on human for the extra feat and skill points because we're losing the mainline rogue on this switch.

sorry for the verbose post and thank you

[Draz74]

1) should I take 2 perform skills or just take a verbal one (human so assume 11 skillpoints a level)

If you're worried that the party will be lacking in skills overall (which it sounds like you are, with no Rogue), just go for 1 Perform skill. That shouldn't hurt anything.

2) where should I put my stat boosts, as you can see, all even numbers so both would probably go the same place....

Charisma. Spellcasting is your most powerful asset, except maybe social skill checks (Diplomancy) or your Fascinate ability. All of which key off of Charisma. 18s should be plenty to keep your skills competitive in general. (Which score is going to be a 10, btw?)

3) I have 2 spells for 3rd level picked out charm monster and sculpt sound, what should my third be? (I think I'm going for a controller bard, I don't have too many illusions, and I think I'm taking glibness a little later, I know it's good but I don't think I need it in my arsenal immediatly)

Well, Glibness could be very useful in your fugitive position that you describe, i.e. "these aren't the droids you're looking for!" But if not that ... Haste is always terribly useful. That's my top recommendation. Slow and Dispel Magic are nifty, and Phantom Steed is a personal favorite.

[Fjolnir]

In responce to your query the 10 is in stregnth, we do have a sorta rogue, but he is now mostly a cleric (5/3, 6/2 something like that) we also have 2 other arcane casters who like to be slightly blasty but both know knock and all three know invisibility so most of the roguey stuff can be at least partially replicated but I am slightly worried, yes

[only1doug]

I'm in the process of rolling up a bard because I'm afraid my current charecter is going to end up getting executed due to the fact that, despite being warned that in this particular instance we are all considered runaway slaves and can be executed for any reason (we got mysteriously teleported to a romanesque coliseum, we escaped from there after being told the local government is going to have us killed) the party insists on doing things to call attention to ourselves (we ambushed a small patrol on a road to get extra gear and faster transport, we had a vague idea of where we were going BUT 2 of our party members ON THE STOLEN HORSE decided to ride up to a house and ask for directions to the next city up the road anyhow)

Eeek, I hope they learn from this....

anyhow I'm limited to core, my stats are very good (rolled 2 18's, 2 17's a 16 and a 14 and our dm allows us to subtract numbers on a 1-1 basis up to a max of 18 so they're all 18's with the exeption of one 10) and I'm assuming I'd be in around level 8 (current high of the party is 10, but that's my charecter, there is a 7 on a new player that missed a big week, most of the party is at 9)

I have 3 real questions
1) should I take 2 perform skills or just take a verbal one (human so assume 11 skillpoints a level)
2) where should I put my stat boosts, as you can see, all even numbers so both would probably go the same place....
3) I have 2 spells for 3rd level picked out charm monster and sculpt sound, what should my third be? (I think I'm going for a controller bard, I don't have too many illusions, and I think I'm taking glibness a little later, I know it's good but I don't think I need it in my arsenal immediatly)


any other advice would be good, but I plan on rolling up a single class CORE bard to this point, and I've decided on human for the extra feat and skill points because we're losing the mainline rogue on this switch.

sorry for the verbose post and thank you

So Stats are:
Str 10
Dex 18
Con 18
Int 18
Wis 18
Cha 18
very nice...

1. 11 skills, Perform: oratory (stirring speeches etc) is a good 1st choice, I'd stick to just one as you thought. Also consider having a few skills non-maxed to allow you to buy a couple of extra languages (although 4 bonus languages at L1 was a nice start)

suggested skills bolded in spoiler

Spoiler

Show

Appraise (Int),
Balance (Dex),
Bluff (Cha),
Climb (Str),
Concentration (Con),
Craft (Int),
Decipher Script (Int),
Diplomacy (Cha),
Disguise (Cha),
Escape Artist (Dex),
Gather Information (Cha),
Hide (Dex),
Jump (Str),
Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int),
Listen (Wis),
Move Silently (Dex),
Perform (Cha),
Profession (Wis),
Sense Motive (Wis),
Sleight of Hand (Dex),
Speak Language (None),
Spellcraft (Int),
Swim (Str),
Tumble (Dex),
Use Magic Device (Cha).

2. I'd also recommend putting both increases (and all future) into charisma.

3. tough call, I'd have to pick from fear (all in cone run), crushing despair (all in cone have penalties), confusion (all in burst have to roll on table to decide action) or good hope (allies in radius get bonus). I'd probably abandon good hope as it doesn't stack with bard song (both morale bonus's), despair has an effect even on a fail, confusion can have your enemies kill each other, fear has them flee..... Personally I'd consider holding sculpt sound off for a while and taking charm moster, Confusion and crushing despair.

Good luck and have fun.

[Fjolnir]

sculpt sound is to make up for the slight lack of stealth currently, as I said, we'd be losing our primary rogue leaving a party of 2 fighters, 2 arcane casters(one of each), the cleric/rogue, a paladin, and a ranger(I know very large group, it used to be 6 members but we've ballooned a little) currently all our characters aren't geared so it's not that big of an issue, but I figure it will become a concern sooner rather than later

[Undead Prince]

So Stats are:
Str 10
Dex 18
Con 18
Int 18
Wis 18
Cha 18

I'm afraid Fjolnir's game is already sort of broken with this kind of stats. The DMG does not provide for any method of appointing ability scores that would result in anything of such magnitude. At the very least, it merits a level adjustment (I would say +2 LA). OTOH, by foregoing all supplements you're significantly limiting character options, and this handicap might be taken into account when determining the LA.

Now as to the strategy in light of Fjolnir's current predicament.

I'm not a big fan of Bards and don't have experience playing them so this is very basic.

For stats, everything to Charisma, obviously.

For skills, I would suggest focusing on Bluff and Diplomacy. By taking these skills to their max, having 5 ranks in Sense Motive and Knowledge (nobility & royalty), putting all ability points into CHA (20 by lvl 8, ) you'll get a "naked" +23 Diplomacy at level 10. Add in +4 CHA from Eagle's Splendour or magic item, and it's 25.

Bluff will be 17.

Now get the Leadership feat. At level 10 and 24 CHA you'll have an 8th level Cohort, 30 1st level followers, 3 second level, and one each of third and fourth levels. Besides all other benefits this crowd gives, by making Aid Another (Diplomacy) rolls vs. DC 10 (assuming the Cohort and the two high levels have some decent ranks in the skills and will beat the DC, and everyone else has a 50/50 chance - a d20 vs. DC 10) it will give you an average of +36 circumstance bonus on the Diplomacy or Bluff checks. The DM will surely want to nerf this, question is how far. It's up to you to defend your char.

Factor in +2 for Diplomacy with Negotiator, and +2 to Bluff from Persuasive feat. Add +30 to Bluff from Glibness, which also gives protection from magical lie detection.

You're aiming for a Diplomacy of at least +47, so that with the -10 malus for a "rushed" Diplomacy check which only takes 1 round, and with a -2 circumstance malus for unfriendly audience, you are able to reliably turn Hostile targets into Friendly. The Friendly status does not go away with time - these NPCs are now your friends for as long as someone doesn't convince them otherwise.

With Bluff, you aim for at least +40, to successfully lie to equal-level NPCs with high Sense Motive and Wisdom (DC 20) even in most outrageous circumstances (-20 malus).

Other skills IMHO should include Disguise and Forgery. Use your crowd of followers to make Aid Another checks here as well.

Make liberal use of your Bardic Fascinate + Suggestion abilities. They're fairly powerful.

In sum, this will allow you to get out of any predicament, turn enemies into friends, and assume other identities to parade around with authority.

Feats: Leadership, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Persuasive, Negotiator.

Spells:
Level 4 - Dominate Person (incredibly powerful, makes nigh permanent NPC slaves), Modify Memory
Level 3 - Glibness, Charm Monster
Level 2 - Suggestion (very powerful, especially so early in the game); Enthrall. Use it to make Diplomacy checks against a crowd of monsters/NPCs and turn masses of enemies into friends.
Level 1: Charm person (obviously), Command (for combat situations).

My 2 cp.

[Fjolnir]

I dunno if I can take leadership, though I agree it would be fairly game breaking if I could (my DM allows some things but outright bans others, currently barbarians, druids and monks are not allowed, along with half-orcs) some people have a few cohorts but nothing to the tune that the leadership feat would bring (a couple of men at arms or an apprentice cleric at the most) like I said, I am most likely taking glibness as my 4th third level spell. as far as feats go, I took weapon finesse(for the few times I need to use my rapier)& spell focus (enchantment), I also don't know if I would keep my army of helpers when the time skip ends or if I would have to restart my recruitment after I returned, making it a bit tougher to determine the value of the feat to some degree

[only1doug]

I'm afraid Fjolnir's game is already sort of broken with this kind of stats. The DMG does not provide for any method of appointing ability scores that would result in anything of such magnitude. At the very least, it merits a level adjustment (I would say +2 LA). OTOH, by foregoing all supplements you're significantly limiting character options, and this handicap might be taken into account when determining the LA.

Wow, you'd give someone LA for rolling good stats?

One of my friends reliably rolls high every time he generates stats, which is why we normally use point buy (I've seen him generate characters with 17 an average points for stats).
I don't know what the appropriate response is, there is a definite advantage for those who roll well when others in the group roll poorly, but i don't think that LA quite fits the bill (which again is why we prefer point buy).

[Alleine]

@ undead prince: Why do you say he's broken because of stats and then promptly tell him he should become a diplomancer and take leadership? Both of those are WAY more broken than a few 18s.

Leadership seems like an odd option here especially. He's an escaped slave. I suppose he could gather a following of like-minded individuals, but it still seems a little off. Especially since gathering a following is likely to bring attention the don't want.

[Undead Prince]

I dunno if I can take leadership, though I agree it would be fairly game breaking if I could (my DM allows some things but outright bans others, currently barbarians, druids and monks are not allowed, along with half-orcs)

Pardon my saying so, but banning something like half-orcs (which get +2 to one stat and -2 to two others) seems a bit inconsistent with allowing 18/18/18/18/18/10 chars.

some people have a few cohorts but nothing to the tune that the leadership feat would bring (a couple of men at arms or an apprentice cleric at the most)

You are probably referring to Hirelings, not Cohorts. Having several Cohorts for one character would be even more lopsided.

like I said, I am most likely taking glibness as my 4th third level spell.

Then you have Charm Monster, Glibness, and Sculpt Sound. About the only good use of Sculpt Sound I can think of is silencing footsteps, which in conjunction with Invisibility makes the entire party very sneaky. Therefore, Invisibility Sphere could go very well with that.

Also, don't forget that by level 10 you have access to fourth level spells. I suggest you take Dominate Person - a true wonder of a spell, and Modify Memory - another gem, available only to Bards, which can be incredibly powerful if used correctly. Both spells are Enchantment and benefit from your Spell Focus / Greater Spell Focus.

One last thing to note, as a Bard, you don't get many spells per day. Therefore, you should conserve your spells and not try to supplement the local wizard. I.e. if he can cast Invisibility Sphere let him do it. You're the Enchanter of the party, use your spells in a way that best utilise and support your own abilities.

as far as feats go, I took weapon finesse(for the few times I need to use my rapier)& spell focus (enchantment)

With your setup, I'd put 18 to STR and 10 to WIS (you really have no use for WIS in your build). That way, you don't need Weapon Finesse. Use the feat to get GSF: Enchantment. Your char shouldnt engage in melee anyway - his job is to Fascinate/Suggest enemies, cast Enchantment spells and command his army of followers.

I also don't know if I would keep my army of helpers when the time skip ends or if I would have to restart my recruitment after I returned, making it a bit tougher to determine the value of the feat to some degree

Elaborate on the "time skip" part please.

Wow, you'd give someone LA for rolling good stats?

The DMG offers several ways of appointing stats. The most objective one, which does not rely on chance, is the "point buy". The highest point buy, intended for high-level adventures, is 32. Under it, a human can have only one 18 stat, one 16 stat, the rest will be 14 or lower.

There are also numerous methods involving dice rolls. The method presented in the PHB is rolling 4d6 and disregarding lowest roll. I.e. you can get an 18 only if THREE out of FOUR d6 dice give you SIXES. The cumulative chance of that happening in a single roll (and only one roll is allowed) are miniscule. That it would happen FIVE TIMES IN A ROW? Simply impossible.

There are other dice rolling methods offered in the DMG. But even the most lenient of them will result in something close to the 32-point-buy.

Getting a 18/18/18/18/18/10 char is like rolling a normal character, and then receiving something like +14 ability points to various stats. Races giving +4 stats (like Aasimar and Tiefling) cost +1 LA. How about +14?

MAD characters (dependent on multiple stats, like Clerics/Paladins/Favored Souls) would pay dearly for such bonuses. It's definitely worth an LA, and not a small one at that.

Why do you say he's broken because of stats and then promptly tell him he should become a diplomancer and take leadership? Both of those are WAY more broken than a few 18s.

"Diplomancer" he will be not, with a straight Bard and no access to any supplements, so no game breakage involved here. 18 in all stats but one, for a human? Frankly, that's obscene outlandish.

Besides, does following the rules mean nothing? Getting such high ability scores was obviously done contrary to the stat rolling rules of DnD. Also, freely taking points from one roll and adding to another is not allowed by the rules. The resulting super-powered characters should have an LA, otherwise they'll be too strong from the standpoint of game design.

The strength of the build I offered comes from using the rules, not ignoring them, so the comparison is hardly fair.

Leadership seems like an odd option here especially. He's an escaped slave. I suppose he could gather a following of like-minded individuals, but it still seems a little off.

LOL, Spartacus?

Besides, with Bluff, Diplomacy, and Disguise they may appear as anything but slaves.

Especially since gathering a following is likely to bring attention the don't want.

With his powers, those who pay attention to them will become followers themselves - through Leadership, Bluff, Diplomacy, Charm, Suggestion, or Dominate Person.

P.S. Fjolnir, have you considered taking Beguiler instead of Bard? It's from a core rulebook (Player's Handbook II) and, IMHO, a far more powerful and flexible class.

With Beguiler, you get spontaneous spellcasting at Sorceror spell progression, i.e. the highest number of spells per day (one of the Bard's key weaknesses), and a very decent enchantment/illusion/divination oriented spell list, with options of adding any other sorceror/wizard spells of the enchantment/illusion schools;

You get some very good spellcasting abilities that give +2 to your spell DCs and caster level vs. spell resistance; at level 20, your spells ignore spell resistance; you also get Still Spell and Silent Spell for free, for sneaky spellcasting.

You can cast in light armor, are eligible for Battle Caster (medium armor spellcasting) and have d6 hp;

You get 6 + Int skill points per level, with fantastic selection of skills, including Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, and Rogue skills (Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device, Open Lock, Sleigh of Hand); also, you have Trapfinding, which means your party does not need a Rogue any more; etc.

You do lose some BAB as Beguiler has the wizard BAB progression. But you shouldnt be engaged in melee anyway, other than maybe for feinting.

It seems to me the Beguiler has more potential than the Bard. It's more versatile and powerful while keeping to the same tune/playstyle.

[Alleine]

Getting a 18/18/18/18/18/10 char is like rolling a normal character, and then receiving something like +14 ability points to various stats. Races giving +4 stats (like Aasimar and Tiefling) cost +1 LA. How about +14?

MAD characters (dependent on multiple stats, like Clerics/Paladins/Favored Souls) would pay dearly for such bonuses. It's definitely worth an LA, and not a small one at that.

He's a bard. These stats won't break him anymore than what his rolled stats(which I am jealous of BTW) would have. Typically bards will only need int and cha for skills and class abilities. Everything else is just icing on the cake and likely won't be used often. He already had two skills at 18, and three more with modifiers at +3. Bringing them up to a +4 won't suddenly make him the god of all creatures.

"Diplomancer" he will be not, with a straight Bard and no access to any supplements, so no game breakage involved here. 18 in all stats but one, for a human? Frankly, that's obscene outlandish.

Besides, does following the rules mean nothing? Getting such high ability scores was obviously done contrary to the stat rolling rules of DnD. Also, freely taking points from one roll and adding to another is not allowed by the rules. The resulting super-powered characters should have an LA, otherwise they'll be too strong from the standpoint of game design.

The strength of the build I offered comes from using the rules, not ignoring them, so the comparison is hardly fair.

He's close enough to a diplomancer. Turning anyone who listens into someone who no longer wants to hurt him? With that bonus they go from hostile to indifferent no sweat. Oh no, there go all encounters with everyone whose language he can speak and he gets a full round with. This is assuming the DM doesn't handwave it by saying they pay him no attention.

Yes, his scores were done against RAW, but since his DM says its ok I have no problems with it, and Bards will have trouble making good use of stats a MAD character would kill for.
The rules are... flawed. When things like the diplomancer are possible that render all encounters with people who speak your language moot, and suddenly the game is unbalanced, its hard to pretend the rules are always working towards game balance.

I guess I just don't quite understand your problem with his stats. Is it simply that they were acquired through ignoring the rules? Because I fail to see how a bard will manage to unbalance the game with 18's in most stats. Could you give me an example of how?

LOL, Spartacus?

Besides, with Bluff, Diplomacy, and Disguise they may appear as anything but slaves.

With his powers, those who pay attention to them will become followers themselves - through Leadership, Bluff, Diplomacy, Charm, Suggestion, or Dominate Person.

I'm unfamiliar with the movie, so I won't comment on it much. The idea just bugs me. Especially when he'll be able to have masses of people following him in a few levels unless nothing changes, and those would be from leadership alone. To say nothing of diplomacy victims, charm targets, suggestion targets, and dominated followers.


EDIT: @ the OP: If you follow Undead Prince's suggestions, you should have little to no trouble with any of your party being foolish and calling attention to themselves

[Fjolnir]

The no half-orcs thing is specific to this current campaign, which is about the 3rd or 4th part of the ramifications to the realm of the party's epic characters and that type of thing, by the time we got to this point, the previous run through our characters managed to make a magical nonaggression/non contact pact thing where the monstrous humanoids and other things moved to the wild lands and the other races let them be for a long time so half orcs are fairly rare and he banned them in the current campaign at the start, the barbarians & druids are a basic offshoot of that because the "civilized races" have gone fairly civilized, giving most of the wilds to the monsters.
The time skip is a current issue we're dealing with because where we were exploring looking for hints as to the reasons why the peace is being shattered, our party was pulled back in time, but not transported anywhere in space, without our original gear so we're in a low magic beyond caster situation, on top of that our party in this time is considered to be slaves brought from exotic lands originally to fight in gladiatorial combat but, after winning in spectacular fashion the local leader told us essentially he knew what we were really here for and proceeded to tell us some hokum about a nearby dungeon and told us he was going to let procure an item for him in exchange for what we wanted, however before we were ready to go a person burst in and told us we needed to escape, the leader is going to have us executed. so currently we're in the past, need the macguffin and are gearless beyond what we've managed to steal from the unconscious guards and the patrol we ambushed (though we're prolly going to have to dump it in case it's unique enough to be scryed specifically{in case you haven't noticed I'm playing slightly paranoid at this point}) with the only weapon that isn't from that (masterwork weapons/armor from the soldiers) being a dagger I (my rogue) snatched when we were gearing up to fight in the arena, which wasn't discovered when we were put in our cell

[Undead Prince]

He's a bard. These stats won't break him anymore than what his rolled stats(which I am jealous of BTW) would have.

The rolled stats are incredible as of themselves.

I guess I just don't quite understand your problem with his stats. Is it simply that they were acquired through ignoring the rules?

Pretty much. Sure, as compared to some of the uber-builds starting with five 18's and one 10 is not that terrible, so perhaps it can be allowed. And sure, you can forego the LA. But it would be the equivalent of using the "Easy" difficulty setting, or just entering a cheat code in a computer game.

Of course, you're right that the rules allow you to do pretty incredible things (and in no way do I pass any moral judgment here), but usually you have to be a good player to pull it off. Just starting with a major stat increase? Not so cool.

He's close enough to a diplomancer. Turning anyone who listens into someone who no longer wants to hurt him? Oh no, there go all encounters with everyone whose language he can speak and he gets a full round with.

That's not quite correct as there are a number of ways to ruin a diplomatic char (you've already named two). With no supplements and a straight build, he's playing Diplomacy very plainly. An inventive DM can offer some nice hurdles.

With that bonus they go from hostile to indifferent no sweat. This is assuming the DM doesn't handwave it by saying they pay him no attention.

1. They can't just "pay no attention". All that's required is 1 round of interaction - i.e. you shout a diplomatic proposition, and if they can hear you, that's it. They'd have to deliberately block hearing or vision to make ignoring work, and it would surely make their fighting that much less effective.

2. That's what Enthrall, Fascinate and similar things are for - make them listen to you.

I'm unfamiliar with the movie, so I won't comment on it much.

I wasn't referring to the movie... but rather to the actual historical figure... the archetype for slave rebellion leader... you can read a bit about him on Wikipedia, I guess...

Especially when he'll be able to have masses of people following him in a few levels unless nothing changes, and those would be from leadership alone. To say nothing of diplomacy victims, charm targets, suggestion targets, and dominated followers.

He can claim to be High Nabob from the Southern Sultanate, traveling the world with his entourage, and everyone will be none the wiser. The targets, victims and followers you mentioned will actually consist to a large degree of the people responsible for hunting him down.

EDIT: @ the OP: If you follow Undead Prince's suggestions, you should have little to no trouble with any of your party being foolish and calling attention to themselves

Thanks 8=))

[SoD]

So Stats are:
Str 10
Dex 18
Con 18
Int 18
Wis 18
Cha 18
very nice...

I'd reccomend instead putting your 18 into strength, and 10 wisdom. Take force of personality if you're worried about will saves, and be a changeling, not a human. Because you'll be going around casting arcane spells, then opening a lock, then going melee for a few rounds, then casting cure moderate wounds, all the while changing appearance from halfling to orc to dwarf to human to elf to kobold...it'll really mess with your parties minds as to what you are. Bonus points if the players themselves can't work it out. Are you a rogue who goes melee with a few levels of cleric, or a fighter/cleric who put cross class ranks into stuff...who knows?

[Undead Prince]

I'd reccomend instead putting your 18 into strength, and 10 wisdom.

With your setup, I'd put 18 to STR and 10 to WIS (you really have no use for WIS in your build).

____________________

Take force of personality if you're worried about will saves

I'm limited to core

when I say core only I'm referring to the phb1/dmg/mm though since I haven't asked about templates or anything like that assume just phb/dmg (PrC's magic items, etc)

____________________

be a changeling, not a human

I'm limited to core

when I say core only I'm referring to the phb1/dmg/mm though since I haven't asked about templates or anything like that assume just phb/dmg (PrC's magic items, etc)

____________________

Are you a rogue who goes melee with a few levels of cleric, or a fighter/cleric who put cross class ranks into stuff...who knows?

I'm in the process of rolling up a bard

And seriously... cleric??

Sigh... that's what happens when you don't bother reading before posting.

[Fjolnir]

I think he's referring back to the cleric rogue who is in my party, my character was straight rogue, he went to cleric a few levels in because at the time, there was no ability to heal in the party and we had 2 sorcerers at the start (one died, became a fighter and one of the fighters retired that character to be a wizard)

so looking back you're suggesting:

Spoiler

Show

stats: Str 18 Dex 18 Con 18 Int 18 Wis 10 Cha 20 (at level 8)
feats: spell focus enchantment, greater spell focus enchantment, persuasive, negotiator (still on the fence about leadership)
skills: perform: oratory, bluff, sense motive, disguise, concentrate, spellcraft, diplomacy, UMD, know:local (partial for the bonus to BK), know: nobility/royalty, forgery, the rest into languages
spells: (I'll be using my original spell list and adding what people put on for suggestions, these will be labeled with a *)
-0- detect magic, dancing lights, ghost sound, summon instrument(don't care, still useful to some degree), restistance, message
-1- charm person, hideous laughter, feather fall, silent image, command*
-2- CMW(just because we have healing doesn't mean a bit of redundancy isn't useful), hold person, suggestion(*), glitter dust, enthrall*, eagle's splendor *
-3- charm monster(*), sculpt sound, glibness*, good hope*, crushing despair*, haste*, slow*, invisibility sphere*, confusion*, Fear*
-4- dominate person*, modify memory*

anything I missed?

[Alleine]

Pretty much. Sure, as compared to some of the uber-builds starting with five 18's and one 10 is not that terrible, so perhaps it can be allowed. And sure, you can forego the LA. But it would be the equivalent of using the "Easy" difficulty setting, or just entering a cheat code in a computer game.

Of course, you're right that the rules allow you to do pretty incredible things (and in no way do I pass any moral judgment here), but usually you have to be a good player to pull it off. Just starting with a major stat increase? Not so cool.

I wouldn't worry too much about it at this point. At early levels these stats can smash through encounters and make your survivability shoot through the roof, but at mid levels they stop being so useful when you run into encounters where the monsters are more likely to have 18's or more in all/all the important stats. He'll still be a little unbalanced, but not as much.


@ the OP: Looks pretty good. Didn't someone say that Good Hope wasn't worth it though because it doesn't stack with the bonus from Bardic Music abilities?

[Darth Stabber]

Would love stats like that. Can't see why Barbarian is banned, unless it's a setting reason, Ditto monk (unless you GM is saving you from crapiness). Diplomancer is not necessarily a bad thing if your GM handles it intelligently, and Mr. Burlew has posted a well thought out rework of the system on this very site.

[Fjolnir]

Barbarian is a setting thing, my DM just has a problem with monks honestly, they've been banned for longer than I've been with the group

[Undead Prince]

I think he's referring back to the cleric rogue who is in my party, my character was straight rogue, he went to cleric a few levels in because at the time, there was no ability to heal in the party and we had 2 sorcerers at the start (one died, became a fighter and one of the fighters retired that character to be a wizard)

Rogue -> Cleric? hmm. Well, with all 18's it doesn't matter much 8=)

so looking back you're suggesting:
stats: Str 18 Dex 18 Con 18 Int 18 Wis 10 Cha 20 (at level 8)

As long as we're cheesing the stats, why not go one step further. Use the Age Category - Middle Aged, which gives you -1 to physical, but +1 to all mental stats. Since your DM allows point-to-point conversion, go for the initial stats of
Str 18
Dex 18
Con 18
Wis 8
Cha 19
Int 19.

Put the two ability score increases into Int and Cha, so by level 10 you have 20 Cha, 20 Int, and +6 skill points (and going on to +1 per level). For -1 Will save, you've got yourself an entire new Skill, and a new known language to boot (from the Int bonus). You'll be a super-genius AND super-charismatic. Whoa.

feats: spell focus enchantment, greater spell focus enchantment, persuasive, negotiator (still on the fence about leadership)

Fight for leadership (pun intended 8=)) Other players already have followers, and you, as the most Charismatic one, should naturally be the one with the greatest entourage. Role-play it well, make characters for the Cohort and several highest-level Followers (the first-level crowd will probably be DM's discretion - go for Warriors as they come with the best gear and can at least keep themselves alive, and a few Experts for various skills). Think up a nice story of how you came by your Cohort and Followers. Don't skimp on it - these will be your best friends (more loyal than PCs 8=))

Leadership can make or break this char - remember, at the core you're just a half-baked spellcaster with no access to Necromancy for the minions, and a half-baked fighter with no heavy armor and a low BAB. A host of minions and a powerful Cohort will greatly alleviate these handicaps, both directly and through Aid Another checks in and out of combat. The DM owes it to you for playing such a weak class without any PrCs/supplements! Be a Master Manipulator, one who makes others do the fighting for him, and then you can be truly a powerful addition to the party.

skills: perform: oratory, bluff, sense motive, disguise, concentrate, spellcraft, diplomacy, UMD, know:local (partial for the bonus to BK), know: nobility/royalty, forgery, the rest into languages

By level 10 you'll have 143 skill points (149 if you went by Middle-Aged route). 5 each go to Knowledge (nobility) and Knowledge (history) for the synergies (history gives bonus to BK, while local gives bonus to Gather Information, which I don't think you need as its redundant w/BK). This leaves you with 139 points. That means you can max 10 skills, and bring an 11th to a level of 9.

Perform: oratory, bluff, sense motive, disguise, concentrate, spellcraft, diplomacy, UMD, Speak Languages are all good, and total 9. Forgery is cross-class unfortunately; if you have a rogue in the party, see if he can take it. Instead, you pick Tumble - a great skill that gives you Dodge AC bonuses and freedom from AoOs while moving - i.e. by level 10 at the cost of 1 skill you'll have an equivalent of Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack feats. This is very good for survivability.

The 9 remaining skill points I'd suggest putting into Appraise. Also, concerning Speak Languages, don't forget that you know 1 + Int bonus languages without any ranks, each rank adds 1 language, so by level 10 with 20 Int you know 19 languages (and there are only 20 languages in the PHB). After learning all of them you can safely stop putting points in SL and put them in Appraise.

spells: (I'll be using my original spell list and adding what people put on for suggestions, these will be labeled with a *)

I'd like to reiterate that, from my point of view, the Bard should not attempt to replace (or heavens forbid, play second fiddle to) the arcane spellcaster. You have your own domain, that of Enchantment and various other ways of deceiving people and making them do things for you. You get a very limited number of spells per day and spells known, so I suggest you pick them in a way that best compliments your own abilities.

-

0- detect magic, dancing lights, ghost sound, summon instrument(don't care, still useful to some degree), restistance, message

Instead of Resistance, which gives a measly +1 to saves and is better suited for clerics and wizards, I'd pick Mage Hand - a very adaptive and universally useful cantrip in line with your manipulative character.

-1- charm person, hideous laughter, feather fall, silent image, command*

At level 10, you only have four 1st level spells known. Your Charisma does not influence spells known, only spells per day. Command is unfortunately not on the bard spell list (my bad). My offer:

Charm person, Tasha's Hideous Laughter (agreed);
Disguise Self - coupled with your high Disguise Skill and Bluff makes you a real chameleon;
Ventriloquism, and here's why: it allows you to use your Diplomacy as an attack while remaining safely hidden. Even if the targets make their saving throw, they can still hear the voice, and that's what you need to make that Rushed Diplomacy check (full-round action).

These spells augment your abilities and play to your strengths, while the other options (Feather Fall, Silent Image, Expeditious Retreat etc.) are a poor attempt at covering the weaknesses and are better left to the Batman Wizard/Sorc.

-2- CMW(just because we have healing doesn't mean a bit of redundancy isn't useful), hold person, suggestion(*), glitter dust, enthrall*, eagle's splendor *

Again, at level 10 you know only 4 second level spells. Seriously, check those Bard tables.

Suggestion IMHO should go without question as it is a VERY powerful spell.

Enthrall makes EVERYONE IN SIGHT either friendly or indifferent for more than an HOUR, being an excellent battlefield controller. Also, it allows you to use your Diplomacy on enemies with impunity (1 hour = 60 Rushed Diplomacy checks). Another must have IMHO.

These two spells are what you're BUILT to do. They have to be on your list.

Eagle's Splendour... no. First, as long as there's a Wizard and Cleric in the party they should supply the stat buffs. Second, by level 10 you really should be wearing a +4 Cha item! If you're not, buy/make/steal one ASAP!

Glitterdust - why? It's an attack spell, but Conjuration, so doesn't make use of your Spell Focus. And all it does is temporarily blind creatures. If your victim is going to fail his Will saving throw, it better be a Suggestion or Enthrall, which make them your actual friends for hours. Also, seeing as you're on the run and perhaps will be hiding, a -40 on all hide checks in the entire vicinity is a bit counterproductive, no?

Cure Moderate Wounds? Waste your precious slots on something the Cleric does more and better? Please. Just buy some healing potions and be done with it.

Instead, take two spells which are awesome for you.

Invisibility. It's sure to be a life saver.

Alter Self. For an understanding of its capabilities, refer here. For starters, you can "alter self" to blend into any humanoid crowd. Or, make yourself look like a particular person. Second, you get various racial skill bonuses and even bonus feats (i.e. Alter Self into a Half-Elf to get +2 to Diplomacy and Gather Information). Third, you get racial movement types. I.e. in water? Alter Self to Locathan and gain a perfect swimming ability (60 ft speed). If you weren't limited to the core Monster Manual, you could even get forms that can fly or burrow.

-3- charm monster(*), sculpt sound, glibness*, good hope*, crushing despair*, haste*, slow*, invisibility sphere*, confusion*, Fear*

Again, 4 spells max.

Fear - bad b/cause as Necromancy doesn't play to your strengths.
Hope/Despair - bad b/cause Suggestion, Enthrall or Charm Monster offer a lot more for a failed Will save.
Confusion - very bad, as even if target fails save, it still is likely to attack you or your allies. Congrats, you've wasted a spell with no result.

Good:

Charm Monster
Glibness
Invisibility Sphere + Sculpt Sound (perfect hiding)

I don't think any other combo offers so much for your kind of character and predicament.

Tip: use Bluff + Glibness + your pal Wizard's Magic Aura + Masterwork Item + Suggestion to sell those masterwork swords as +5 Unholy Vorpal Doomswords of Doom.

-4- dominate person*, modify memory*

Yes. Two very powerful spells which will give you loyal followers to command. Don't forget to creatively employ Modify Memory and make Diplomacy checks so that the followers are not after your blood the moment your Domination for some reason ends.

anything I missed?

Don't forget to use your Fascinate+Suggestion abilities, and I think you're ready to roll 8=)) character-wise, at least. You'll still need magic items. For starters, +4 Cha item ASAP (can't stress it enough); chain shirt, Mithral light shield for the AC.

A good approach is to look at everyone you encounter as potential soldiers of your cause. Much like the Necromancer sizes up creatures for their potential as Undead servants, only you call them friends and followers (even Dominated ones, so that they don't try to kill you if Domination is ever dispelled).

Good luck playing, and come back to tell about the first session!

P.S. Really though, Beguiler is so much better... you could be an Epic spellcaster... eh.

[Fjolnir]

I am aware I put up lists that had spells over the amount of the spells known, the idea was looking for input, not putting up what I know, trying to find the spells that work the best for the build

I don't think I'm going to jump an age category, and my DM only allows the swap up to 18 or I would have pushed it

I'll ask about leadership the next session we have, I'll have the character set up before that without leadership with an open feat spot that way if it's all systems go, I can add it in and be set up to go

I am aware that beguiler is better, I've played one before and it's alot of fun however with the restrictions on books, it's not possible this time

[Fjolnir]

thank you for your input, this is going to be a fairly interesting character, especially coming off of a throw/feint build for my rogue(halfling, tossing from range seemed the best way to open SA's and I went down the improved feint tree to try to ensure SA's in situations where I'm not flanking/invisible) which is good since now we ended up without our respective magic items and that don't cost a thing to use.