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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    Yes, and if V ever cries out "what have I done", then the nearest squirrel will immediately be promoted to the position of the "right being", the arcane power will be interpreted as admitting one's mistake, wrong reason will be self-pity, and the time will be right for that because it's going to be "too late".

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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    tcrudisi, I'm going to be addressing the same point you brought up in my reply to Optimystik here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    There was a main point to it, certainly. There may have been others, but the argument's conclusion (and the Oracle's preparations by putting a village near his tower) makes it obvious that he fully expected that one outcome.
    Without precluding a hypothetical expectation of any additional outcomes? We're in agreement then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Your personal feelings on Belkar's prophecy notwithstanding, everything the Oracle said was perfectly true. Belkar did make Roy's fall possible, and many other factors were at work (gravity, Celia's ignorance, etc.) Miko didn't make her "sin-stained blood" speech until after the Order defended Belkar.
    The point at issue isn't whether or not the Oracle is factually correct when he draws connections, however tenuous, between Belkar's actions and the fates of the characters potentially involved in his prophecy. The dispute lies in whether those should count toward the prophecy's fulfillment, given that they were all indirect causes of the final outcome.

    What I am pointing out is that every single character that was present for the Oracle's death scene argued against the acceptability of an indirect resolution. These are not characters with much in common at all, including alignment. That they would agree unanimously on a particular issue looks to be suggestive of something.

    The second point of my argument is that Belkar's prophecy had been more open-ended than V's. Given the unanimity of judgment made by the characters on that issue, I think that it is not unreasonable to anticipate that they would thus have held V's prophecy to an even higher, stricter standard.

    This leads to a final argument against the possibility of V's prophecy being fulfilled indirectly, as it would run counter to the sentiments expressed in that scene.

    Okay? Nothing is 100% proof. But it's suggestive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Convoluted? Certainly. But many prophecies are. (Read any Greek Mythology lately?)
    Yeah, I like it a lot, actually. But the implication (notice this does not imply 100% certainty) of the scene in question ran counter to that. It was pretty straightforward. Kind of like the fiends and their deal... or, well, the manner in which they presented their deal...

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    You're making an assumption here. Just because Belkar doesn't think a certain item of logic doesn't apply doesn't make it Word of God. Quite the opposite in fact. And even if it did, it doesn't make the Oracle's statements wrong.
    The assumption being made here is your own, directed at me. I have never operated on the basis that I have the Word of God backing me up on this issue, and it is quite possible to argue implied author intent without it. Your confusion may be my own fault for having suffered a complete communication breakdown in that convoluted mess of a paragraph you're quoting, but even there I allowed for an explicit uncertainty:

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    So the fact that [Rich] has Belkar ask his question in such a way as to not only allow mutually inclusive "yes" answers but muddy the issue even further by asking if he'd "cause the death of" someone rather than "get to kill" someone makes me think it may well have been deliberate
    (emphasis added)

    Everything that follows builds on that hypothetical "may."

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    His thoughts aren't supposed to be clear at this point. Look at his expression just prior to the time stop's expiration. He's torn by indecision and his entire mind is a jumble. He's distracted, under pressure, scared out of his mind and greedy beyond all reason... simultaneously.

    Could Rich have picked one thought out of all that mess and done an internal monologue, followed by 4 spoken words? Possibly. But I like this way better. Sometimes saying something out loud gives you clarity that talking in your head can't match.
    You're arguing this as an issue of artistic necessity -- the orbs had to be there or the scene wouldn't have worked as powerfully. That's fine, but you're on no better grounds than I am with the author intent argument, and frankly I just don't agree with you. The orbs seemed totally out of left field and were distracting from the drama.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    The question is, would he have touched/signed/agreed to anything had he not talked himself down first?

    But that's just it. You're assuming that because the words came before his touching of the orb, that they are somehow less important. They aren't.
    The "somehow" is because even if the penultimate step is as vital as the ultimate, you don't generally use wording that implies it is the operative action. If killing Kubota was necessary, could those have been the four words? If the lack of trance-sleep was necessary, could the Oracle have mentioned it?

    He probably could have, technically. And a lot of people on the forums would have nitpicked it to death much like we're doing now, for the same reasons of apparent inconsistency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    It's simple. If he hadn't reassured himself by speaking out loud, he wouldn't have gone through with it. Even distilling his thoughts into spoken words, his indecision and hesitance managed to show themselves; he was a hairsbreadth away from not doing it. Why is that so difficult to follow?
    Don't presume I can't follow you just because I don't agree with you.

    ...

    AT ANY RATE: for the time being I'm just gonna go with "by" as "while" -- I still say that is an unforgivably sloppy use of language (given that it's a prophecy and people are supposed to want to take it apart completely and find some potential trick), and that there's no truly analogous precedent set for it by the prophecies we've seen completed thus far, but we've pretty much run this topic into the ground and I think we all just want to see V make herself a new pair of dragonskin boots.

    and I'll be pleasantly surprised if there's a twist later on that validates my arguments here, but hey, they're valid whether or not anybody else admits it.


    [edits: no more -- for real this time, I swear]
    Last edited by B. Dandelion; 2009-03-04 at 03:07 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    The point at issue isn't whether or not the Oracle is factually correct when he draws connections, however tenuous, between Belkar's actions and the fates of the characters potentially involved in his prophecy. The dispute lies in whether or not the incidents he strung together were direct enough to literally satisfy the prophecy.
    Can you prove they weren't direct enough? Were any of the Oracle's claims incorrect?

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    What I am pointing out is that every single character that was present for the Oracle's death scene argued against the acceptability of an indirect resolution. These are not characters with much in common at all, including alignment. That they would agree unanimously on a particular issue looks to be suggestive of something.
    They have something else in common: not being oracles.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    The second point of my argument is that Belkar's prophecy had been more open-ended than V's. Given the unanimity of judgment made by the characters on that issue, I think that it is not unreasonable to anticipate that they would thus have held V's prophecy to an even higher, stricter standard.
    Speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    This leads to a final argument against the possibility of V's prophecy being fulfilled indirectly, as it would run counter to the sentiments expressed in that scene.
    Again, speculation. V wasn't in that scene, nothing in Belkar's prophecy can be applied to him. The only connection you have is that the same kobold made both predictions. The visions don't even come from him, they are granted by Tiamat.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    Okay? Nothing is 100% proof. But it's suggestive.
    And more importantly, subjective.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    Yeah, I like it a lot, actually. But the implication (notice this does not imply 100% certainty) of the scene in question ran counter to that. It was pretty straightforward. Kind of like the fiends and their deal... or, well, the manner in which they presented their deal...
    As I said to Kaytara, prophecies aren't about implication. As long as you can look back after the facts to the way they are described in the prophecy and say "yeah, that fits what was said," then the prophecy was effective.

    The Oracle did not say "by speaking the right four words WITHOUT repetition OR taking any other actions immediately afterward OR changing your facial expression OR feeling confused/reluctant OR without a period of silence before and after said utterance..." you get the idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    You're the one making an assumption about me here. I have never operated on the basis that I have the Word of God on the issue. My potential interpretive scenarios regarding this issue have never required it. I can argue for, or against, the implication of author intent without having something iron-clad.
    I was talking about Belkar not having WoG (by denying the veracity of his prophecy), not you.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    You're arguing this as an issue of artistic necessity -- the orbs had to be there or the scene wouldn't have worked as powerfully. That's fine, but you're on no better grounds than I am with the author intent argument, and frankly I just don't agree with you. The orbs seemed totally out of left field and were distracting from the drama.
    I made no statements about Rich's "author intent," other than I'm sure he considered several ways to bring this scene across (as any good author does) and chose one that he felt was the most effective. That's a very reasonable assumption to make.

    The fact that it distracted you from the drama isn't much of a complaint. Just about anything he did there would have displeased SOMEone.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    The "somehow" is because even if the penultimate step is as vital as the ultimate, you don't generally use wording that implies it is the operative action. If killing Kubota was necessary, could those have been the four words? If the lack of trance-sleep was necessary, could the Oracle have mentioned it? The answer is yes, he could... and a lot of people would be really annoyed.
    I'm not quite as versed in Divination 101 as you are, to know what wording an oracle "generally uses." All I know is that V's power came as a result of the self-reassurance he gave himself from speaking four words, and that he fulfilled the prophecy to the letter.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    Don't presume I can't follow you just because I don't agree with you.
    I'm not presuming you can't, I'm presuming you won't. And that presumption is based on your own claims (such as the orbs being "out of left field" even though their addition to the scene, or that of some similar device, makes perfect sense.)

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    I honestly doubt those were the four words.

    It would be just like the giant to lead us on with a misleading comic title, the prophecy doesn't match up. Who is the right person? The V is not talking to the fiends, only out loud to herself. And how ultimate is arcane power with a finite time frame?

    No I think they are on there way though

    Spoiler
    Show
    V agrees to a plan put forth by the 'voices' that allows the soul bind to become permanent, (an epic spell Permanency comes to mind) explaining the choice to her mate, she utters the four words agreeing to the voices but directed at the mate. Her mate being the right person to confide such a choice with
    Last edited by Surprise!; 2009-03-04 at 04:30 AM.
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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by Surprise! View Post
    I honestly doubt those were the four words.

    It would be just like the giant to lead us on with a misleading comic title, the prophecy doesn't match up. Who is the right person? The V is not talking to the fiends, only out loud to herself. And how ultimate is arcane power with a finite time frame?
    Posts like this make me giggle inside.
    "Rich has all but spelled it out, just like Belkar's alignment! It MUST be a trick!"
    "V isn't talking to a person, he's talking to himself! Because he isn't a person!"
    "That ultimate power isn't ultimate enough! He can't simultaneously reshape reality to fit his image, one-shot Xykon, learn to play the piccolo and overcome the fiends' restrictions! This must be the nearly ultimate arcane power that comes before the real thing! Let's make more 4 words threads!"

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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Posts like this make me giggle inside.
    "Rich has all but spelled it out, just like Belkar's alignment! It MUST be a trick!"
    "V isn't talking to a person, he's talking to himself! Because he isn't a person!"
    "That ultimate power isn't ultimate enough! He can't simultaneously reshape reality to fit his image, one-shot Xykon, learn to play the piccolo and overcome the fiends' restrictions! This must be the nearly ultimate arcane power that comes before the real thing! Let's make more 4 words threads!"
    Posts like yours make me giggle, they are bordering ever so precariously on insulting and demeaning that I wonder if there is a troll under that bridge.

    I firmly believe in The Giants storytelling ability, if the prophecy was fulfilled no one would be able to refute it.

    How many threads were refuting Belkar's prophecy?

    I am merely stating that this stinks like a trap, the reader is supposed to draw the same conclusions you are. So he can surprise you with the real one latter. It is a matter of intuition, and I will refuse to be convinced until the Giant does so.

    Also, I didn't start any thread about the four words.

    *Edit*

    The Giant easily could have added a "have" in between the I and must

    He could have easily kept the Fiends floating there, so that those words would be directed at them

    The title is too obvious, (it states one of the prophecy rules, but only because this scene builds up that part of the prohecy)

    If the Giant truly wanted to, there would be no argument, no ambiguity. I am not disagreeing because it is too 'easy' I am just really confident on my trap finding roll.
    Last edited by Surprise!; 2009-03-04 at 04:59 AM.
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    A large made-up percentage of people put made-up percentages, concerning whether or not they do something, in their signatures. If you are one of the smaller made-up percentage, put this in your signature.

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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by Surprise! View Post
    The title is too obvious,
    I am of death. Subtle and glaring. Bane and champion.

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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cúchulainn View Post
    Take that stuff back to ebaums.
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    A large made-up percentage of people put made-up percentages, concerning whether or not they do something, in their signatures. If you are one of the smaller made-up percentage, put this in your signature.

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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    oh good f---

    what the hell is wrong with you? For one thing, you're entirely antagonistic to my reply, which was totally mild, and for another, frankly you don't have an argument that comes remotely close to justifying this sort of arrogance. All I was asking was that we should agree to disagree and part ways until more can be known. Were you unaware of the fact that a debate can end without one party needing to be the loser?

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Can you prove they weren't direct enough? Were any of the Oracle's claims incorrect?
    Do you even remember why we're having this aspect of the discussion? I can give you a reasonable explanation for interpreting that scene as a vote against an indirect cause being applicable to the fulfillment of the prophecy. I don't need to prove it's 100% error-proof. Can you prove that they were able to satisfy the fulfillment? No? Then shut up already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    They have something else in common: not being oracles.
    Gosh, I guess you're failing English class as well, champ, since the Oracle said himself he hadn't believed it either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Speculation.
    Speculation based on the facts of the scene. The charge of automatic invalidity applies to speculation based on mere opinion. Can you prove that I am wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Again, speculation.
    Logical speculation following from a logical premise. Can you prove that I'm wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    V wasn't in that scene, nothing in Belkar's prophecy can be applied to him.
    When looking at V's prophecy, and trying to determine what rules it will follow, I look at Belkar's and see what rules it must as well. This is a logical speculative connection between the two of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    The only connection you have is that the same kobold made both predictions. The visions don't even come from him, they are granted by Tiamat.
    Yes, and? You are proving me wrong? No, because we're not TALKING ABOUT DEFINITIVE PROOF, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WHAT IS A REASONABLE ANALYSIS YOU GOOBER.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    And more importantly, subjective.
    The theory that this IS the fulfillment of the prophecy is subjective. It is based (among other things) on the subective belief that this power should be considered "ultimate" as per V's prophecy, and the subjective belief that the four words uttered by V should fulfill the ones foretold. Is this founded in logic? Yes. Is this reasonable? Yes.

    The theory that this is NOT the fulfillment of the prophecy is based on the subjective reasoning I have supplied you. Is this founded in logic? Yes. Is it reasonable? Yes.

    It is completely fine to think that facts and speculative theories that bolster your argument are superior to the ones I supply for mine, and your opinion of the matter, in and of itself is... ::gasp:: subjective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    As I said to Kaytara, prophecies aren't about implication.
    THE IMPLICATIONS OF THE SCENE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    As long as you can look back after the facts to the way they are described in the prophecy and say "yeah, that fits what was said," then the prophecy was effective.
    "Fits" meaning "accurately describes," and that is the very thing I am having trouble believing. As we have been over. And over. And over again. If the only way to make a scene "fit" a prophecy is to take some of the word definitions used in the original phrasing and REPLACE THEM WITH SOMETHING ELSE ENTIRELY -- that means it doesn't fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    The Oracle did not say "by speaking the right four words WITHOUT repetition OR taking any other actions immediately afterward OR changing your facial expression OR feeling confused/reluctant OR without a period of silence before and after said utterance..." you get the idea.
    He didn't need to. He was still inaccurate in the wording of his foretelling. That's why I used the word "sloppy." It may not be a BIG mistake, but it's still an error.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    I was talking about Belkar not having WoG (by denying the veracity of his prophecy), not you.
    Actually, you were extending it to me. If I thought Belkar spoke the Word of God, I'd know what it was, wouldn't I?

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    I made no statements about Rich's "author intent," other than I'm sure he considered several ways to bring this scene across (as any good author does) and chose one that he felt was the most effective. That's a very reasonable assumption to make.
    Arguing for "author intent" was what I was claiming to have done. What I said to you was that while your opinion on artistic license is completely fine, it's no more proof than my own earlier argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    The fact that it distracted you from the drama isn't much of a complaint.
    SUBJECTION, YOUR HONOR! yes that's intentional

    For one thing, a charge of having broken the Willing Suspension of Disbelief is a completely reasonable objection to levy against an artistic maneuver all on its own.

    For another, the choice to take this route artistically resulted in V saying her words and THEN touching the blue orb, which was an otherwise needless deviation from the prophetic setup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Just about anything he did there would have displeased SOMEone.
    Which is why it's so annoying to have people bitch at me for my complaints here when it's not like there was a chance in hell it wasn't gonna happen ANYWAY.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    I'm not quite as versed in Divination 101 as you are, to know what wording an oracle "generally uses."
    Once again, this is actually an English issue, and I'm so glad you're willing to admit you need more schooling if you can't see what the problem here is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    All I know is that V's power came as a result of the self-reassurance
    gosh I guess you're right, it's not like the scene you're describing contains any elements of subjective personal interpretation whatsoever

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    he gave himself from speaking four words, and that he fulfilled the prophecy to the letter.
    Circular. Reasoning. You know what you want to see. And you see what you want to see. You happily ignore the inconsistencies but that doesn't mean they magically VANISH for the rest of us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    I'm not presuming you can't, I'm presuming you won't.
    PKB.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    And that presumption is based on your own claims (such as the orbs being "out of left field" even though their addition to the scene, or that of some similar device, makes perfect sense.)
    You're accusing me, of not trying to understand your way of thinking, when your way of thinking requires for me to a person who is wrong for thinking what I think. And I'm refusing to cooperate. I'm such a horrible bitch that way sometimes.
    Last edited by B. Dandelion; 2009-03-04 at 05:50 AM.

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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by Surprise! View Post
    Take that stuff back to ebaums.
    Sorry I couldn't help it, grabbed it out of my personal collection cause it summed up my reaction perfectly.
    I am of death. Subtle and glaring. Bane and champion.

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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Posts like this make me giggle inside.
    "Rich has all but spelled it out, just like Belkar's alignment! It MUST be a trick!"
    "V isn't talking to a person, he's talking to himself! Because he isn't a person!"
    "That ultimate power isn't ultimate enough! He can't simultaneously reshape reality to fit his image, one-shot Xykon, learn to play the piccolo and overcome the fiends' restrictions! This must be the nearly ultimate arcane power that comes before the real thing! Let's make more 4 words threads!"
    Amen to that

    The way i see it: 4 words (check) = absolute arcane power (check)
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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaytara View Post
    As I said earlier, the phrasing of the prophecy created an expectation that this comic fails to deliver on in certain aspects.
    In your opinion. In my opinion, the phrasing of the prophecy said he would say four words, then he would get ultimate power. Which he did, and he has. Had the oracle said "by touching the blue one," we would have had 90 bajillion people go "WTF?! That's Stoooopid!"

    Anyway, may I suggest, rather than, "the prophecy implied..." that perhaps, "the forumites inferred..." ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kgw View Post
    Amen to that

    The way i see it: 4 words (check) = absolute arcane power (check)
    Amen to that.
    Done here. Thanks, friends.

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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    When I read the last few words(ie, THE words), I laughed. Who knew V was really Hero Boy? For those who don't know, that's the Astro Boy pastiche in Freakazoid, whose motto was "I must succeed!"(with suitable faux Japanese accenting).
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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by Selene View Post
    In my opinion, the phrasing of the prophecy said he would say four words, then he would get ultimate power.

    As B is trying to say, it is largely an issue of semantics. The oracle didn't say "he would say four words, then he would get ultimate power". The oracle said he would get ultimate arcane power BY saying the right blah blah blah when V asked him HOW he would get the power.

    Quote Originally Posted by www.dictionary.com
    how1   [hou] Show IPA
    –adverb
    1. in what way or manner; by what means?: How did the accident happen?


    by1   [bahy] Show IPA preposition, adverb, adjective, noun, plural byes.
    13. in consequence, as a result, or on the basis of: We met by chance. We won the game by forfeit.
    "I... I must succeed" could well be the four words but only through poor writing and phrasing on the author's part. Also, there is no need to be rude just because we don't agree. Asking if we are also part of the "belkar is neutral" club is just asking for a fight.
    Last edited by kusje; 2009-03-04 at 07:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    Actually, this is starting to make me dislike a lot of the mood around here. It IS a lot like high school.

    I mean, you want to see the strip and say: aha! Four words! We're done here!

    ...and that is completely fine. We're joining you. We have popcorn.

    But the behavior demonstrated in this thread by many of you who DO believe that it's happened -- all you're doing is giving each other slaps on the back and high fives for sharing the only obvious correct opinion here.

    And all we are asking you to concede? Is that yeah, maybe it's a LITTLE... a tiny, tiny bit not quite what some people might have expected from the words used.

    That we may be... TECHNICALLY right in the objection. Nitpicky, overthinking it, what have you... but just that we didn't just pull that interpretation out of nowhere.

    And you won't do it. Nothing. You want to be right, and you want to dance around, and flaunt your superiority over those eeeeeeeeeeeediots who just won't accept what should be something utterly unquestionable!!! Geeeeeeeeeeeez, people, AMIRITE?!

    So, basically? You're showing off how proud you are to be complete jerks.

    Hooray....?

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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    So all you're asking us to do is concede that our totally awesome and right opinion could be wrong? I'm pretty sure that's how holy wars are started...

    Anyway I guess we're back to the indignancy I love, wish I could say this is how I wanted things to turn out though. Fact is I tried to prevent this from happening, discussion on this subject is ultimately pointless. If you just want us to admit there is a possibility we could be wrong, I think we can all admit to that, we're none of us that narrow minded. I suppose I just don't want this to be the new 'dozen opinionated topics later' fad on the forums, it's boring and no one is going to be convinced either way.

    But I don't think any of us meant to call anyone who thought a different way stupid or anything, though I don't speak for everyone...heh, no one listens to me anyway. Point is if you're going to continue to discuss something pointless at least keep it impersonal, or it'll seem more and more like the high school debate club...anyway carry on, nothing is totally without amusement.
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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    Theses are definitely the four words. Unless Rich decides at a later date to have a different four words used in the correct manner lead to Ultimate Arcane Power, in which case these are definitely not the four words. Such is the power of expectations, and the authors ability to twist, bend and break them at his will.

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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cúchulainn View Post
    So all you're asking us to do is concede that our totally awesome and right opinion could be wrong? I'm pretty sure that's how holy wars are started...
    Actually I don't even think it's that much. You can be TOTALLY convinced this is it, issue settled. Or not, if you prefer that option.

    Just allow that while you are correct, it is possible that someone may have gone into it with a more literal-minded expectation. So their experience might have been a little different. "That's it? Really? Are you sure?"

    And those of you who think it HASN'T happened and want to stick to their guns about it, can maybe debate those who're more convinced it HAS but are willing to concede the possibility of error.

    It's just the backslapping, "GOD, people are actually QUESTIONING this?!," "the four words are OVER! -- AMEN to THAT, poster #3, I can't believe these guys!" clique-ish behavior that I'm calling out. Those kind of statements don't even allow an opening for the other side argue their case -- they're wrong because they're wrong, the prevailing group Hive Mind has Spoken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cúchulainn View Post
    Anyway I guess we're back to the indignancy I love, wish I could say this is how I wanted things to turn out though. Fact is I tried to prevent this from happening, discussion on this subject is ultimately pointless. If you just want us to admit there is a possibility we could be wrong, I think we can all admit to that, we're none of us that narrow minded. I suppose I just don't want this to be the new 'dozen opinionated topics later' fad on the forums, it's boring and no one is going to be convinced either way.
    You were fine! Nothing at all to complain about.
    Last edited by B. Dandelion; 2009-03-04 at 09:54 AM.

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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by Surprise! View Post
    I am merely stating that this stinks like a trap, the reader is supposed to draw the same conclusions you are. So he can surprise you with the real one latter.
    Rich has never played that kind of mind game.
    It is a matter of intuition, and I will refuse to be convinced until the Giant does so.
    Like I said much earlier in this thread, like the Belkar alignment debate, Rich settles it or it doesn't ever get settled.
    The Giant easily could have added a "have" in between the I and must
    And then the words would have been, "I have must succeed," for an overall effect of "huh?" I'm guessing you're picturing a different sentence...
    He could have easily kept the Fiends floating there, so that those words would be directed at them
    And then the words would have been directed at three beings, not one, for added legitimacy to complaints about the prophecy not actually being fulfilled. Instead, s/he spoke to--himself/herself. Speaking to a fiend, s/he might well have been lying. Speaking to Elan or Haley or Roy, s/he would have been influenced by his/her idea of that person's desires. Speaking to Vaarsuvius, there is only Vaarsuvius' own motivations, as honestly as s/he understands them.
    The title is too obvious, (it states one of the prophecy rules, but only because this scene builds up that part of the prohecy)
    Again, this hinges on the presumption that Rich plays mind games with his audience in a way he doesn't.
    If the Giant truly wanted to, there would be no argument, no ambiguity.
    I'm guessing you weren't around to see how nonplussed he was by the whole idea that anyone thought there was ambiguity about Belkar's alignment--and yet people did, lots and lots of people. He's an author. He's not a projective telepath.
    I am not disagreeing because it is too 'easy' I am just really confident on my trap finding roll.
    *peers at your die* Pretty sure that's a 1.

    In response to certain other ongoing warsevents in this thread, let me add that I certainly take no issue with anyone finding this unsatisfying as a resolution of the prophecy.

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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    I guess what I don't understand about the semantics argument is that the english language isn't cut and dried like that. If I ask my brother 'How did you get to the airport?' and he responds with 'I called Jen', I know that the call did not magically transport him to the airport. I know that he called Jen and asked for a ride, she came and picked him up and the car physically got him to the airport. But we accept his answer because it makes sense in the context of the question and the event. Therefore to me 'I... I must succeed' makes sense in the context of the question (4 words) and the event (four words leads to touching orb which leads to ultimate arcane power).

    Just my thoughts :)

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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    What's really going on here, at least IMNSHO, is that some people are either disappointed with the Four Words, or the deal of Ultimate Power (what exactly were you looking for, BTW, Pun Pun??) that they are looking for any excuse, no matter how small, to justify that this wasn't the Four Word Prophecy.

    The phrase, "Da Nile Ain't Just a River in Egypt" comes to mind here.

    Look, it's fine to be disappointed in something. No storyteller is perfect, especially one that has to please so many different types of fans. But, and let's be honest here, the Four Word Ship has Almost Assuredly Sailed (we're talking a 99.99999% probability). And it's time to move on. Now I'm not suggesting that people should stop criticizing Rich for what they feel might be a poor story telling option. Go ahead and knock yourself out.

    But at least let's admit to what's going on. Or at the very least, face up to the possibility that one might be disappointed, and maybe, just maybe, are trying to look for an "out" for their disappointment.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Now with all of that being said, I would point out that it ain't exactly Rich's fault if people blew up the whole Four Word Prophecy into something huge. If one was expecting either the Four Words to be something mind blowing and/or the Ultimate Power to be something on the scale of Pun Pun... Well, since the comic hadn't revisited the point since the Oracle was actually seen, isn't kinda the fault of people that built it up in their minds?

    I mean, consider this: What would have happened if we never knew about the Four Word Prophecy? People would be freaking out (probably in a cool way) over what just happened in the strip. They'd be talking about how V was quite probably the most powerful caster that ever lived in OotS land. Which sounds like Complete and Total to me. [Mind you, many posters are freaking out in a good way right now, as various threads show. The only difference would be that we wouldn't have an inkling that it was coming]

    Also, and I'm just thinking out loud here, people's internal definitions of Complete and Total Arcane Power might be different from others. And they probably didn't expect it to be a short time deal (though since CaTAP would "break" the comic storytelling wise, it'd either have to happen at the end of the comic or be a short term deal) I can see how that might have thrown people for a loop. I mean, if one builds a concept in their head, and they are presented with something different, it's only natural to fight back against it to some extent. I've seen this phenomenon time and time again on the Internet (take one look at either Doctor Who or Lost fandom, and you'll see what I mean ), and I expect to see it many times in the future.

    Nothing wrong with that, BTW. It's just being human.

    Maybe that's why I'm not so plussed about the situation. I didn't really think about the CaTAP nor the Four Words very much. So when they happened, I said, "Cool" and moved on.

    Did I think that the Four Words were particularly noteworthy or awesome? No not really. Did I care that they weren't? Again, not really. What I'm much more concerned about is what's gonna happen to V. Now and in the future. Just how is this going to come back and bite him in the posterior?

    And, when it comes down to it, that's what Rich intended the prophecies to be. To hint at future plot points and to let us know that Major Stuff Was Coming down the pike. Well that Major Stuff has just hit the fan, and I can't wait to see where it goes.

    And I'm sure it will make up for whatever disappointments that people may or may not have had over the actual Four Words.

    PS: Sorry about the length. Had a bit of a ramble there. But we are talking about V here, so it's probably appropriate.

    PPS: The main reason I can't see the Four Words still coming in the future is that it would mean V would become more powerful than he is right now (or for a more permanent duration). This would completely kill the storytelling aspects of the strip and mean that short of a really dumb Deus ex Machina (or V leaving the strip permanently), the strip would be over.

    And I ain't ready for the comic to end quite yet. Thus I am perfectly happy with this being the Four Words and letting V come back down to a "normal" character when this is all over.
    Last edited by Porthos; 2009-03-04 at 01:17 PM.
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  22. - Top - End - #142
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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    Well, we all know that the Oracle loves to be ambiguous, and the fact that there is so much debate about V's four words at least fulfills that part of the prophecy. Honestly, since the Oracle visit everyone watches everything that V says very closely, and anytime s/he says any four words together, there's going to be debate on whether it's THE four words. For my part, I'm pretty sure the comic title gives it away, but only in hindsight will we be certain.

    As far as the definition of ultimate arcane power, I think power can be measured in corruptibility. The more power, the more temptation to give into corruption...and man, does this qualify! I don't think this is the "ultimate arcane power" that V had in mind when s/he asked the Oracle his/her question, but I do think this is the "ultimate arcane power" that the Oracle was referring to when answering V's question.

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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by thestarvingpoet View Post
    I guess what I don't understand about the semantics argument is that the english language isn't cut and dried like that. If I ask my brother 'How did you get to the airport?' and he responds with 'I called Jen', I know that the call did not magically transport him to the airport. I know that he called Jen and asked for a ride, she came and picked him up and the car physically got him to the airport. But we accept his answer because it makes sense in the context of the question and the event. Therefore to me 'I... I must succeed' makes sense in the context of the question (4 words) and the event (four words leads to touching orb which leads to ultimate arcane power).

    Just my thoughts :)
    The problem is that you had to infer that Jen gave him a ride. The oracle has always given answers that are technically correct. "I...I must succeed" isn't technically correct.

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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by Selene View Post
    In your opinion. In my opinion, the phrasing of the prophecy said he would say four words, then he would get ultimate power.

    If that were all there were to the prophecy, I don't think there'd be any real argument.

    The problem is, and this isn't opinion, that the prophecy contained additional stipulations: the right words, to the right person, at the right time, for all the wrong reasons.

    I haven't seen any consistent explanation of how the four words can be the right words and the reasons still be wrong. There are a lot of people claiming the reasons are the wrong reasons, but ignoring the fact that their logic would also mean that the words are the wrong words; there are a couple people claiming the words are the right words, but ignoring the fact that their logic makes the reasons the right reasons as well. Then there's the nitpicking that you are rebutting concerning who the words were directed to, etc.

    Now, I think most of the people who point out that those four words don't actually fulfill the prophecy do think that the author intends them to, and the poor match with the prophecy simply reflects hurried or strained writing. I'm certainly in that category. Our reluctance to concede completely is largely because we'd really prefer that the author come up with a less strained fulfillment of the prophecy that is more consistent with the overall high quality of the work, and we hope there's still a chance of that, even though we don't really expect it to happen at this point.

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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)



    I dunno, seems pretty technically accurate to me.

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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    Huh, I find this thread very interesting. The prophecy can be interpreted many ways, and prophecies are supposed to be vague.
    So....
    Don't say there weren't four words in there, that's silly, and much settled, just count them.
    The prophecy fits. Dubiously? Yes, nobody will argue that it's cut and clear. If you don't interpret the events, it doesn't entirely make sense, but it fits and therefore it's possible.
    Now, it's like the ominous "death" of Belkar. He can die, or another number of things, and the prophecy would suggest he'd stay that way. However, he can be "revived" and then return to his previous state. As long as the year doesn't end, Belkar may keep breathing. It's much the same, if you don't want to believe this is ultimate arcane power, then it simply wasn't the right time/being/words. The title seems pretty definitive, though.
    Anyway, prophecies are supposed to be ambiguous, and you can assume "how" meant "in what fashion/manner/situation" and "achieve" meant "get", but assuming "ultimate" equates to the combination of some epic casters doesn't quite sound right. For many, that would be ultimate, but for V (or the oracle for that matter) it may not.
    IN CONCLUSION: It is very possible that these are the four words, and most things suggest it is. It's possible they're not. Realize you may not get a more definitive answer. Me? I'll wait for the next strips. :P
    Last edited by Niesra; 2009-03-04 at 11:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    oh good f---

    what the hell is wrong with you? For one thing, you're entirely antagonistic to my reply, which was totally mild, and for another, frankly you don't have an argument that comes remotely close to justifying this sort of arrogance. All I was asking was that we should agree to disagree and part ways until more can be known. Were you unaware of the fact that a debate can end without one party needing to be the loser?

    Do you even remember why we're having this aspect of the discussion? I can give you a reasonable explanation for interpreting that scene as a vote against an indirect cause being applicable to the fulfillment of the prophecy. I don't need to prove it's 100% error-proof. Can you prove that they were able to satisfy the fulfillment? No? Then shut up already.
    Calm down. I wasn't antagonistic at all. Trust me, if I was, you'd know it.
    Also, I don't recall ever telling you to "shut up." Take a chill pill, will you?

    As for proving the Oracle's words, I did. Every word he said was 100% true. QED.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    Gosh, I guess you're failing English class as well, champ, since the Oracle said himself he hadn't believed it either.
    He knew it was a weak argument. That didn't make it factually inaccurate, just incredible.

    But incredible is the order of the day when dealing with the PCs.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    Speculation based on the facts of the scene. The charge of automatic invalidity applies to speculation based on mere opinion. Can you prove that I am wrong?
    Quite easily. You said the Oracle's prophecy was "inaccurate." It wasn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    Logical speculation following from a logical premise. Can you prove that I'm wrong?
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    When looking at V's prophecy, and trying to determine what rules it will follow, I look at Belkar's and see what rules it must as well. This is a logical speculative connection between the two of them.
    The only "connection" is that they are both prophecies. By that logic, I should start reading Homer or Revelation for insight into V's fate as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    Yes, and? You are proving me wrong? No, because we're not TALKING ABOUT DEFINITIVE PROOF, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WHAT IS A REASONABLE ANALYSIS YOU GOOBER.
    Did I ever say I was "proving you wrong?" You're getting awfully defensive. I'm merely pointing out that your expectations on what V's prophecy and his moment of truth should have had don't apply here. The simple fact is that he

    Oh, and protip: A stream of caps don't make your point any more persuasive.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    The theory that this IS the fulfillment of the prophecy is subjective. It is based (among other things) on the subective belief that this power should be considered "ultimate" as per V's prophecy, and the subjective belief that the four words uttered by V should fulfill the ones foretold. Is this founded in logic? Yes. Is this reasonable? Yes.

    The theory that this is NOT the fulfillment of the prophecy is based on the subjective reasoning I have supplied you. Is this founded in logic? Yes. Is it reasonable? Yes.

    It is completely fine to think that facts and speculative theories that bolster your argument are superior to the ones I supply for mine, and your opinion of the matter, in and of itself is... ::gasp:: subjective.
    The difference between you and I is that your argument is entirely subjective. Mine is focusing on what the Oracle said, and what came to pass. Both match.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    THE IMPLICATIONS OF THE SCENE.
    There's those caps again.
    Arguing based on "the implications of the scene" is pointless - what it implied to you is clearly not what it implied to me, and it will continue to be different for any number of posters that we poll. Focus instead on the facts: what the Oracle said would happen, and what happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    "Fits" meaning "accurately describes," and that is the very thing I am having trouble believing. As we have been over. And over. And over again. If the only way to make a scene "fit" a prophecy is to take some of the word definitions used in the original phrasing and REPLACE THEM WITH SOMETHING ELSE ENTIRELY -- that means it doesn't fit.
    Replace them with what? Everything mentioned was there.
    4 words? Check.
    Right time? Check.
    Right being? Check.
    Wrong reasons? Check.

    "Oh noes he touched something between speaking and the power, that somehow makes the 4 points listed above not apply anymore!"

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    He didn't need to. He was still inaccurate in the wording of his foretelling. That's why I used the word "sloppy." It may not be a BIG mistake, but it's still an error.
    You keep harping on this very misguided string. How was the prophecy inaccurate? How were ANY of them inaccurate?

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    Actually, you were extending it to me. If I thought Belkar spoke the Word of God, I'd know what it was, wouldn't I?
    You won't get far in an argument if you try to tell the person you're opposing what they are thinking. Argue based on what I say instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    Arguing for "author intent" was what I was claiming to have done. What I said to you was that while your opinion on artistic license is completely fine, it's no more proof than my own earlier argument.
    Ah, my mistake then.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    SUBJECTION, YOUR HONOR! yes that's intentional

    For one thing, a charge of having broken the Willing Suspension of Disbelief is a completely reasonable objection to levy against an artistic maneuver all on its own.

    For another, the choice to take this route artistically resulted in V saying her words and THEN touching the blue orb, which was an otherwise needless deviation from the prophetic setup.
    How is it a "deviation?" Did it somehow invalidate the words of the prophecy? Change their meaning?

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    Which is why it's so annoying to have people bitch at me for my complaints here when it's not like there was a chance in hell it wasn't gonna happen ANYWAY.
    This isn't personal, no matter how much you seem to want it to be. I'd have pointed out the same facts to anyone who argued that the Oracle's prophecy was somehow incomplete.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    Once again, this is actually an English issue, and I'm so glad you're willing to admit you need more schooling if you can't see what the problem here is.
    My my, do your fingers ooze venom when you type these things? Whatever additional schooling I might need, I'm certain I won't need it from you.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    gosh I guess you're right, it's not like the scene you're describing contains any elements of subjective personal interpretation whatsoever
    Again I ask you, would he have touched it without reassuring himself out loud first? Keep in mind that he spoke the FIRST time he was about to touch it also. It's just his character.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    Circular. Reasoning. You know what you want to see. And you see what you want to see. You happily ignore the inconsistencies but that doesn't mean they magically VANISH for the rest of us.
    What. Inconsistencies?
    #331: Oracle says "Event A will happen, followed by Event B."
    #634: Event A happens, followed by Event B.
    He didn't say immediately, in a vacuum, or any of the other qualifiers your argument would need to make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    PKB.
    ASL?

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    You're accusing me, of not trying to understand your way of thinking, when your way of thinking requires for me to a person who is wrong for thinking what I think. And I'm refusing to cooperate. I'm such a horrible bitch that way sometimes.
    If the username fits...
    Last edited by Optimystik; 2009-03-04 at 11:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Replace them with what? Everything mentioned was there.
    4 words? Check.
    Right time? Check.
    Right being? Check.
    Wrong reasons? Check.
    You're missing a rather key part of the prophecy there.

    There are also many that disagree with you on the matches that you believe are there.
    Last edited by Warren Dew; 2009-03-04 at 11:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    For anybody who ever had doubts, we witness today's comic.

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    Default Re: Finally the four words! (spoiler)

    I will be brief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    I'm not presuming you can't, I'm presuming you won't. And that presumption is based on your own claims (such as the orbs being "out of left field" even though their addition to the scene, or that of some similar device, makes perfect sense.)
    Quote Originally Posted by B. Dandelion View Post
    You're accusing me, of not trying to understand your way of thinking, when your way of thinking requires for me to be a person who is wrong for thinking what I think. And I'm refusing to cooperate. I'm such a horrible bitch that way sometimes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    If the username fits...
    Optimystik. My paragraph there, the one that is referring back to your first one. That is literal. Look at what you are accusing me of. That I refuse to even try to understand your POV. This is proved because I say that I found the orbs to have been "from out left field" even though, they were obviously objectively perfectly sane?

    ...that was very illustrative. "PKB," since you seem unfamiliar with the term, is shorthand for "Pot, Kettle, Black." Your hypocrisy is absolutely galling. I have bent over backwards to try and accommodate your POV. Several times, in this thread alone, you will see sections of my post that are dedicated to explaining why I understand the reasoning that is being used and why, although I follow it and respect the logic underneath it, I do not find it satisfactory to fully describe the scenario in question. You have never once extended me the same courtesy. You do not listen to me, you do not look at the definitions of the words I am using or what the context is, you shoot back your replies without trying to take in the big picture of what I'm trying to communicate with you, because all you are trying to do is "win," in every little thing. Which makes it impossible for either of us to gain anything from our correspondences -- you don't want to learn, and I grow tired very quickly of repeating myself. So, I think, it is best we cease.

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