Finally the four words! (spoiler)

[Optimystik]

Porthos, the hesitation argument is well made. There are two problems with it:

1. "I ... must succeed," accomplishes the same thing.

So does "I...I can't lose"; what's your point?
The existence of other ways of saying the same thing doesn't invalidate these as the "right" 4 words.

2. If they're the right four words for showing doubt, they weren't uttered for the wrong reasons, as there are no other reasons for which they could be the right four words -- barring another "doily discovery".

The Giant specifically showed they were the wrong reasons (hence the title of the comic.) Vaarsuvius himself stated the RIGHT reasons when he was about to touch the orbs the first time. That was why Lee felt compelled to step in and darken his motives. By the time he finally did touch them, his original resolve was completely gone.

[Porthos]

Porthos, the hesitation argument is well made. There are two problems with it:

1. "I ... must succeed," accomplishes the same thing.

Sure. But I think "I... I must succeed" sounds better to my ears.

But one's milage may vary and all that.

2. If they're the right four words for showing doubt, they weren't uttered for the wrong reasons, as there are no other reasons for which they could be the right four words -- barring another "doily discovery".

If the words don't fit, they can't be it.

Nah, they're showing that V is still going through with something that he knows he really shouldn't.

In other words, the words themselves weren't the Wrong Reasons. But they're a sign that V is going to commit to following through for all of the wrong reasons.

Now I will admit that the only way it works is if V is saying those words to convince himself to actually go through with it (i.e. V being the Right Being). And it also only works if one buys that V suddenly realizes that his motives are no longer pure.

Of one doesn't buy either of those premises, then, yes, it all falls apart.

But what can I say? Comic #634 seemed to be the fitting end of dozens of strips of character development.

Or, to put it more simply: It worked for me.

[Vaarsuvius4181]

"By saying the right 4 words to the right being..."

There was not one being, all three enticed him into it. Now, i know people will say "Oh, but only one asked". Thats completely stupid, as one was not distinguished as a leader amongst the others. They also said they were freelance, so they do not have a higher being to guide them (At least not one telling them what to do). in conclusion, he said 4 (Actually 5, since extra "I") words to 3 beings and became really strong. He probably will love the power so much, he will sell his soul for more to a greater being and THEN he will have ultimate power.

[Silverraptor]

I knew someone would make this excuse the moment I saw some disbelievers. Allow me to shead light on who the "right being" is...V. Yes, he was saying those words to him/herself to "Convince" him/herself that he/she needed to accept the deal so that he/she was not weak. It's true.

[The Minx]

"I... I must succeed" is four words, not five.

V has all the schools of arcane spells now, no gaps. He has spells from three of the most powerful evil mages ever to have lived. He can cast them all spontaneously. He can use Archmage powers with them. He can use Epic spells. As someone said, the fiends took the Gestalt rules from UA and tuned their power to "over 9000!!"

This is the prophecy.

[Vaarsuvius4181]

I knew someone would make this excuse the moment I saw some disbelievers. Allow me to shead light on who the "right being" is...V. Yes, he was saying those words to him/herself to "Convince" him/herself that he/she needed to accept the deal so that he/she was not weak. It's true.

Bit of a stretch

[Vaarsuvius4181]

"I... I must succeed" is four words, not five.

V has all the schools of arcane spells now, no gaps. He has spells from three of the most powerful evil mages ever to have lived. This includes Epic spells. He can cast them all spontaneously. As someone said, the fiends took the Gestalt rules from UA and tuned their power to "over 9000!!"

This is the prophecy.

rich is proabably just messing with us. And sorry about the counting mistake. Looked like 5 words lol

[Porthos]

<repeated for the bajillionth time>
V said the words to himself to convince himself to go through with the plan.
</repeated for the bajillionth time>

[Silverraptor]

Bit of a stretch

But totally fits.

[Vaarsuvius4181]

but thats like saying "You can have more milk if you ask for it"

"Ok. I want more milk. Now."

"Ok"

[The Minx]

rich is proabably just messing with us. And sorry about the counting mistake. Looked like 5 words lol

Well, "probably messing with us" is not exactly "hard proof" like your title boasts.

I'm not really sure what V could get which he doesn't already have now which would qualify as "ultimate arcane power".

[Vaarsuvius4181]

<repeated for the bajillionth time>
V said the words to himself to convince himself to go through with the plan.
</repeated for the bajillionth time>

Nice HTML ref

[Gnomish Wanderer]

Definately not a stretch. V said the words to convince herself, otehrwise the words had no effect upon taking the orb and getting the magic.

[Silverraptor]

but thats like saying "You can have more milk if you ask for it"

"Ok. I want more milk. Now."

"Ok"

Uh... What? That makes no sense if your reffering to me. Also congrats on advancing to dwarf with that post.

[Porthos]

BTW, apologies for my crankiness. But after seeing Yet Another Thread on this subject, I got a little miffed.

My apologies.

Still, we do have around a dozen threads on this subject. Your post could have gone in one of those, you know.

[Vaarsuvius4181]

Definately not a stretch. V said the words to convince herself, otehrwise the words had no effect upon taking the orb and getting the magic.

Although all you conspirators make a good point...im still sticking by my thoery. Wouldnt be much of a story if V became all powerful, would it? I think he loves this "Near ultimate power" and then the voices tell him to get more. So he makes a deal with the devil and truly becomes all powerful.

[KBF]

Bit of a stretch

How? it seems perfectly logical. He had to say the right 4 words to the right being (convincing himself he must succeed) at the right time (time is very important now, and it is a time of change in hir development) for all the wrong reasons (there is another option that does not involve selling hir soul, but it requires admitting help from both his peers and his teachers, thus proving that hir magic is not adequate).

It fits great in context, mysterious without context, and is a generally a brilliant use of foreshadowing.

[Vaarsuvius4181]

BTW, apologies for my crankiness. But after seeing Yet Another Thread on this subject, I got a little miffed.

My apologies.

Still, we do have around a dozen threads on this subject. Your post could have gone in one of those, you know.

Np. I am merely saying i was browsing threads and i got so sick of everyone saying he already said the 4 words. I mean, noone even believed it was possible to have an alternate theory.

[Porthos]

Wouldnt be much of a story if V became all powerful, would it?

Yes, but he's going to lose said power very shortly (remeber it has a distinct time limit). Which puts him (potentially) in thrall with a bunch of demons.

Which is always fun.

Besides, there's a running theory that the IFCC will now be able to.... use... V at one of the Gates for their own devices.

Presuming the OotS ever gets to another Gate, that is.

[KBF]

I mean, noone even believed it was possible to have an alternate theory.

No. There are many posts that detail this theory inside the discussion threads, and there are a few discussion threads with this as it's topic that get pushed down as more people make threads.

[Vaarsuvius4181]

How? it seems perfectly logical. He had to say the right 4 words to the right being (convincing himself he must succeed) at the right time (time is very important now, and it is a time of change in hir development) for all the wrong reasons (there is another option that does not involve selling hir soul, but it requires admitting help from both his peers and his teachers, thus proving that hir magic is not adequate).

It fits great in context, mysterious without context, and is a generally a brilliant use of foreshadowing.

MWAHAHAHAHAH!!!! YOU HAVE GIVEN ME ANOTHER REASON IN MY FAR FETCHED THEORY!! THE SECOND OPTION WAS PAINFULLY STRETCHED. I mean, who remembers his brilliant idea with the birds to warn haley and belkar?

[Vaarsuvius4181]

No. There are many posts that detail this theory inside the discussion threads, and there are a few discussion threads with this as it's topic that get pushed down as more people make threads.

I apologize than.

[Rakim Avishot]

I knew someone would make this excuse the moment I saw some disbelievers. Allow me to shead light on who the "right being" is...V. Yes, he was saying those words to him/herself to "Convince" him/herself that he/she needed to accept the deal so that he/she was not weak. It's true.

That...is...EXACTLY what I was going to say.........jerk
Seriously though, we need spread this idea around until people stop putting up threads about this dopey prophecy.

[Porthos]

I mean, noone even believed it was possible to have an alternate theory.

Errrr. A good portion of the threads running around right now are full of posts by people who are convinced that these weren't the four words.

Take a look at this one, for instance: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106075

As well as this one: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106494

I don't think it is an exaggeragtion to say that this is one of the most controversial side-arcs since the whole Miko fiasco.

Whether this much discussion is a good or bad thing, I leave up to individual posters.

EDIT:: Ninja'ed.

At least I provided links.

[Rakim Avishot]

Also congrats on advancing to dwarf with that post.

speaking of which, your sig contradicts your status.....

[Vaarsuvius4181]

That...is...EXACTLY what I was going to say.........jerk
Seriously though, we need spread this idea around until people stop putting up forums about this dopey prophecy.

Errrr. A good portion of the threads running around right now are full of posts by people who are convinced that these weren't the four words.

Take a look at this one, for instance: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106075

As well as this one: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106494

I don't think it is an exaggeragtion to say that this is one of the most controversial side-arcs since the whole Miko fiasco.

Whether this much discussion is a good or bad thing, I leave up to individual posters.

Well, im sorry. Im not a regular forum poster and i thought people would like to hear the idea. Dont need to get all mean about it.

[galdon]

V said 4 words to create the situation, and 4 words when accepting the ultimate arcane power, the only thing this thread hinges on is the idea that at some later date, V will say 4 more words and get even more power than this experimental super weapon of a triple soul splice. >_>

[Silverraptor]

That...is...EXACTLY what I was going to say.........jerk
Seriously though, we need spread this idea around until people stop putting up forums about this dopey prophecy.

How am *I* a jerk? It was the second post of this thread!

[Vaarsuvius4181]

Uh... What? That makes no sense if your reffering to me. Also congrats on advancing to dwarf with that post.

Thanks for the congrats, but i guess my House metaphor kinda sucked. What i mean to say is, you cant convince yourself to take someone elses deal. Better metaphor...

"Ok, there is a blue and red button"

"Ok"

"Push the red one"

"why?"

"Just do it"

(PUSH)

"Ladies and gentle man, he pushed the red one! nice job!"


Get what im saying now? You cant convince yourself to take a deal thats beingvery linear and then calling it "Convincing yourself"

[Mystic Muse]

I know a way to get absolute hard proof. it's called waiting.

also I disbelieve that it's hard proof because V did it to save her family and because the other method was FAR too unreliable. therefore it is NOT "all the wrong reasons" which are also needed for it to be the right four words.

there my conciense is satisfied. 27 potions of heroism please (if that's spelled wrong it's because spellcheck wasn't working)