Bloodstorm Blade only really good for 4 levels?

[Frosty]

Is it just me or do the abilities from 5th to 9th level of this PrC is kinda 'meh' and the capstone is decent but not worth wading through levels 5 thru 9? I see another front-loaded PrC. With no advancement of Maneuvers known or readied or stances, what incentivesdo I have to stay in the class? Wouldn't you just wanna jump straight back into Warblade?

Also, a rules question. Does the 4th level ability Lightning Ricochet basically replace the level 1 ability of Returning Attacks? In other words, once you reach level 4 you don't have to spend an Iron Heart maneuver to make your weapon come back, and it comes back immediately instead of at end of turn?

[Arbitrarity]

Yeah, pretty much. 2 levels is the norm, 4 is arguable. Capstone isn't that great either, really. Thunderous throw is the only thing that really matters.

[dyslexicfaser]

Yes, Lightning Ricochet is the winner, and it does work like that.

The rest of the PrC isn't bad by any means, you get bonus feats and some cool new moves, but it's just not really worth it, when you can go back to Warblade and pick up maneuvers faster.

[Frosty]

Hey, I just thought of something...

Thunderous throw basically gives your melee attacks a range, but everything else is the same right? What if we have a Goliath Fighter2/Warblade3/Bloodstorm Blade5/Master Thrower5 with these feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (2-handed weapon), Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, and Knockback (add in Rapid Shot and Far Shot if using Flaws)? Would you basically be able to play BILLIARDS with enemies?

You take the Dungeoncrasher variant, giving up your second Ftr Bonus feat so you deal damage when you bullrush an enemy into a wall. Bloodstorm Blade allows you not only to make thrown attacks using melee rules, but that 5th level ability lets you make full-attacks from different angles via bouncing attacks off enemies. Combined with the fact that with the Knockback feat you get to make a Bull-rush for free whenever you Power Attack with a melee attack, and you get this scenario:

Goliath throws weapon at enemy A. Enemy A gets bullrushed backward and at the same time the weapon bounces off to enemy B, who also gets bullrushed, and then weapon goes to enemy C, who if you had tried to attack from your original angle, would not have hit a wall, but since your attack comes from enemy B's direction, it pushes enemy C into a wall, dealing more damage.

Master Thrower level 5 lets you make Touch attacks with your thrown weapons. sure you lose your strength bonus, but you can now afford to Power Attack to kingdom come, and when you do that, your Bullrush bonus goes up thanks to Knockback.

Later on, add Shocktrooper into the mix of feats. You now have even *better* bullrushing control as you can nowbullrush enemies diagonally!

[MustacheFart]

Hey, I just thought of something...

Thunderous throw basically gives your melee attacks a range, but everything else is the same right? What if we have a Goliath Fighter2/Warblade3/Bloodstorm Blade5/Master Thrower5 with these feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (2-handed weapon), Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, and Knockback (add in Rapid Shot and Far Shot if using Flaws)? Would you basically be able to play BILLIARDS with enemies?

You take the Dungeoncrasher variant, giving up your second Ftr Bonus feat so you deal damage when you bullrush an enemy into a wall. Bloodstorm Blade allows you not only to make thrown attacks using melee rules, but that 5th level ability lets you make full-attacks from different angles via bouncing attacks off enemies. Combined with the fact that with the Knockback feat you get to make a Bull-rush for free whenever you Power Attack with a melee attack, and you get this scenario:

Goliath throws weapon at enemy A. Enemy A gets bullrushed backward and at the same time the weapon bounces off to enemy B, who also gets bullrushed, and then weapon goes to enemy C, who if you had tried to attack from your original angle, would not have hit a wall, but since your attack comes from enemy B's direction, it pushes enemy C into a wall, dealing more damage.

Master Thrower level 5 lets you make Touch attacks with your thrown weapons. sure you lose your strength bonus, but you can now afford to Power Attack to kingdom come, and when you do that, your Bullrush bonus goes up thanks to Knockback.

Later on, add Shocktrooper into the mix of feats. You now have even *better* bullrushing control as you can nowbullrush enemies diagonally!

For the more powerful 8-ball in the corner pocket, take a couple sorc/wiz levels and cast wraithstrike. That way all your attacks that round are touch attacks and you get to add your str bonus!!!


Personally, I am a bigger fan of the Half-Orc Professional bowler!

Basically, same thing but use an Orc Shotput. Then combo with Imp. Sunder, Imp. Trip, and Combat Brute and you get this scenario:

Half-Orc hurls shotput and hits Enemy A sundering his weapon. Combat Brute says when you successfully sunder their weapon you get a free attack. Make that free attack a trip attempt. Enemy A is now prone. Combine all that with the fact that Imp. Trip says you get a free hit after a successful trip and your shotput smashes into Enemy A's now prone sundered arse lol! Your shotput then bounces to Enemy B, sundering, tripping and smashing Enemy B before moving on to Enemy C.

Ogg: "Ogg go for perfect 300 game!"
On-looker: "Oooh a 7 10 split! That will be absolutely difficult shot!"
Ogg: "No diffi...diffi...hard shot for Ogg!"
*boom* *crash*
On-looker: "WOW and he has done it! Ogg scored a perfect game!"

[dyslexicfaser]

Right you are. Throw in the TWF tree for more attacks. By level 16, you have enough knockbacking range attacks (3 plus iterative attacks, more if you squeeze in a level of whirling frenzy barbarian or chaos monk or something) to pin them up against a wall and juggle them against it, causing 8d6+x3strength damage each time.

EDIT: If you're looking for a cool visual, stick the +2 bonus weapon ability Exploding on your weapons. Every time you hit someone, they explode, everything around them takes 2d4 damage, and knockback does it's work and sends them flying.

[Frosty]

For the more powerful 8-ball in the corner pocket, take a couple sorc/wiz levels and cast wraithstrike. That way all your attacks that round are touch attacks and you get to add your str bonus!!!

But why? I can only do that a few times a day and I'll have to spend my swift action to cast Wraithstrike. I need my swift action to be able to treat my throw attacks as melee attacks.

[JeminiZero]

Is it just me or do the abilities from 5th to 9th level of this PrC is kinda 'meh' and the capstone is decent but not worth wading through levels 5 thru 9?

I previously had this misconception as well, until one of the better optmizers on this board showed me the light.

Basically:
1) For that capstone ability, you can close your eyes, and then declare your attack on squares rather than opponents. They benefit from total concealment, but thats only going to stop half your attacks (or less if you have one of those other handy feats that helps reduce total concealment, like blind fight.)
2) The most dangerous enemies tend to have huge or bigger size. That means their space is 3x3 or higher. If you take it to be a cube, its 3x3x3 or higher.
3) When you attack a square occupied by an enemy, there is nothing that prevents you from attacking a different square occupied by the same enemy, with subsequent iterative attacks.

You should be able to see where this is going. At level 10, a bloodstorm blade can close his eyes, declare he attacks EVERY square occupied by the enemy, and then throw out a bunch of attack rolls at his highest BAB, although with total concealment. For a huge enemy, its 9 attacks for a "flat" enemy, or 27 attacks for a cube. And it gets exponentially worse as your enemy gets bigger.

In fact, there is nothing that prevents him from declaring an attack on EVERY SQUARE WITHIN HIS RANGE, of course skipping those that are occupied by friendlies.

[Baxbart]

Ah, good old Bloodstorm Blade. Its a fun PrC to play, but I did struggle to take it seriously once the whole full-attack with a returning weapon caught my eye. My Warforged character (loaded up with some scout levels and Psy Warrior, iirc, in a gestalt game) threw ranged weapons at people.

When I say ranged weapons, I mean I looked at the clause that said you can throw anything you're proficient with, and had him throwing his bow. As a full attack. With skirmish damage (thanks to Psychic Warrior's hustle power). He was an endless source of amusement for the other PCs and the DM.

I was at the point of trying to work in drunken master for 'Improvised Weapon Proficiency' when the game petered out and I moved back to University.

On a more related note, I think I only took the first few levels myself. The rewards for higher levels didn't seem worth it when I could just revert to Warblade progression and get more interesting maneuvers.

[Ascension]

I was at the point of trying to work in drunken master for 'Improvised Weapon Proficiency' when the game petered out and I moved back to University.

I want to see a Goliath Bloodstorm Blade/Drunken Master with Fling Ally who full attacks by repeatedly throwing a Small member of the party.

[Riffington]

Thunderous throw basically gives your melee attacks a range, but everything else is the same right? What if we have a Goliath Fighter2/Warblade3/Bloodstorm Blade5/Master Thrower5 with these feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (2-handed weapon), Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, and Knockback (add in Rapid Shot and Far Shot if using Flaws)? Would you basically be able to play BILLIARDS with enemies?

I think so. But do the ranged feats apply? (I know they're a pretty unimportant part of the build)

[Hunter Noventa]

Ah, good old Bloodstorm Blade. Its a fun PrC to play, but I did struggle to take it seriously once the whole full-attack with a returning weapon caught my eye. My Warforged character (loaded up with some scout levels and Psy Warrior, iirc, in a gestalt game) threw ranged weapons at people.

That's now how you play a Warforged Bloodstorm Blade. A Warforged has a Slam Attack. It's a melee attack. You can make it ranged. Yes, a Warforged Bloodstorm Blade can have a ROCKET PUNCH.

[Frosty]

I think so. But do the ranged feats apply? (I know they're a pretty unimportant part of the build)

Well, When I throw something, it only has a range increment of 10 ft. That kinda sucks. Logic (and the DM) dictates that feats like Far Shot will still help, or else what's to prevent the character from throwing his weapon a few miles with perfect accuracy and have it return instantly? Rapid Shot is important so I can get an extra attack.

[Riffington]

Sure, far shot works with thrown weapons, but can you get your DM to allow rapid shot to work with them?

[MustacheFart]

Well, When I throw something, it only has a range increment of 10 ft. That kinda sucks. Logic (and the DM) dictates that feats like Far Shot will still help, or else what's to prevent the character from throwing his weapon a few miles with perfect accuracy and have it return instantly? Rapid Shot is important so I can get an extra attack.

Just because your range is 10ft doesn't mean you can't use the Bloodstorm Blade's abilities to throw the weapon farther--you just have to eat the penalty to attack.


A possible crazy idea would be to combo: Mark of Minauros(feat from Fiendish Codex II) with a mount that can charge from super far away (I think a griphon can charge from 350' but don't quote me on it).

Basically, Mark of Minauros says you get a +2 to your attack made at the end of a charge for every 10' you moved as part of the charge. So, just take off from as friggin' far away from your target as possible, charge up a good ol' crazy amount of movement, and *BOOM* LET 'ER RIP!! You should have no problem successfully throwing way beyond your range increment then. Since a charge is a melee action and you resolve ranged attacks as a melee actions, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to charge throw!

If you could find a way to have a buddy harden himself (Just got off work and am tired so not sure if this is possible...maybe through a spell?) you could combo this strategy with Fling Ally to potentially throw him through a castle! Points if he lands and says, "I'm the Juggernaut bitch!"


EDIT: I just looked up Fling Ally. According to the feat, if you have either the improved rock hurling feat or the racial ability to throw rocks, the range of a character 2 sizes or more smaller than you is 40 feet. The feat also states you can throw an Ally up to 5 range increments.

Essientially: 40 x 5 = 200 feet you could throw a buddy! Seems pretty far to me. Also broken is the fact that you just have to hit the square you want (AC 5) and they take no damage whether you hit or miss.

[monty]

If you could find a way to have a buddy harden himself (Just got off work and am tired so not sure if this is possible...maybe through a spell?) you could combo this strategy with Fling Ally to potentially throw him through a castle! Points if he lands and says, "I'm the Juggernaut bitch!"

You want this.

[Ascension]

You want this.

No, no, the one who does the throwing has the Iron Body. The one thrown just has adamantine daggers and Regeneration.

[Tehnar]

I wonder could you use thunderous throw in conjuction with the feat pierce magical protection? I think it would be pretty cool to pick up that feat then.

[Frosty]

I wonder could you use thunderous throw in conjuction with the feat pierce magical protection? I think it would be pretty cool to pick up that feat then.

Is that the one where you dispel buffs as a standard action attack?

[Keld Denar]

Is that the one where you dispel buffs as a standard action attack?

One and the same!

[Tehnar]

I mean would it be allowed by RAW? I think it would, but am not sure.

But it would be a pretty powerful combination. Picking up a light weapon, something you can throw reasonably far, or one even made of wood, just to take care of more esoteric spells. Pick up pierce magical concealment as well, and you got most of the magical defense taken care of (since PMC explicitly ignores ghostform, and all protective illusions, I would rule it also affects blink).

Actually a pure fighter, with a two level dip in bloodstorm blade could be a quite cool and effective build. Would even manage weapon supremacy (I love that feat ). Not saying it would be zomg overpowered, but I think it would be quite effective.

[MustacheFart]

No, no, the one who does the throwing has the Iron Body. The one thrown just has adamantine daggers and Regeneration.

I thought of that myself when I posted it but the potential for total destruction seemed up right up Juggernaut's ally.

[Baxbart]

That's now how you play a Warforged Bloodstorm Blade. A Warforged has a Slam Attack. It's a melee attack. You can make it ranged. Yes, a Warforged Bloodstorm Blade can have a ROCKET PUNCH.

I completely forgot about the slam actually....

Though to be honest I figured that Fling Ally wasn't really necessary once you were 'proficient' with improvised weapons. The party's halfling barbarian was already light enough for him to wield as an improvised weapon, ready for the full-attack. But like I said, the game died before I could start ricocheting the halfling at high speed.

I miss Marksman :P

[Saintjebus]

(since PMC explicitly ignores ghostform, and all protective illusions, I would rule it also affects blink).

I don't know what ghostform is, but I would disagree about Blink, because Blink is not an illusion- they are moving in and out of the ethereal plane.

[Keld Denar]

Best use would be a Goliath using Lightning Ricochet to throw a Halfling who is a Master Thrower who is using Palm Throw and their other ability to skip rocks off people.

D&D version of a fragmentation gernade...

[monty]

I'm stealing this idea. There's just something awesome about writing "Weapon Focus: Ally" on my character sheet.

[Tehnar]

Ghostform is a spell that turns you incorporeal. Its a DM ruling thing, I would rule that way for blink.


And for the halfling exotic weapon called "skipping stones" or something like that can bounce of foes?

[woodenbandman]

But why? I can only do that a few times a day and I'll have to spend my swift action to cast Wraithstrike. I need my swift action to be able to treat my throw attacks as melee attacks.

Actually I think that thing has a duration of Stance, so you spend A swift action, not THE swift action.

[monty]

Actually I think that thing has a duration of Stance, so you spend A swift action, not THE swift action.

"As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn."

So you have to spend another swift action every turn.

[Frosty]

"As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn."

So you have to spend another swift action every turn.

Most BSBs aren't very big on using boosts or counters for this very reason :(