Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132

[ThreeEyedOni]

Pfui. What changed between Ansom trumping one of Parson's plans and Ansom trumping another of Parson's plans?

Available options.

Each one of Parsons moves have been progressively higher in risk in both success probability and risk to assets. His last option after the walls came down was Dancefighting, because the only way his smaller numbers could hold the castle relied on the Coalition lacking the ability to counteract it effectively.

The idea probably didn't take into account Charlie rejoining the Coalition, since by now Parson must see him as some kind of Deus ex Dorkina. Still, it was the only option shy of dropping the castle right away, which would probably be pointless if you couldn't hold a significant portion of enemy troops in the castle courtyard.

Any option is worthwhile to use before dropping the castle, since if that doesn't work to turn the tide there isn't much less.

"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women" - Might as well have been Ansom

Ansom was just enough of a prig to be unable to resist personally dropping the final hammer of the battle, and just enough of a Royal to think that someone with their back to the wall wouldn't consider suicidal foul play.

[Voyager_I]

But then, Ansom would have been the killer. Not Parson.

There's nothing Parson could have done to save Bogroll, and given that he existed purely to be a loyal minion, I can imagine no other way he would have chosen to die.

His death is regrettable, but it was also the best Parson could do for him.

[Shua]

All I can say is, Well played Hamster. "do your worse"

~ Shua

[Ragn Charran]

Agree with everyone who likes Ansom's lame-ass, non-hero, off-screen death. Kudos to Bogroll, way to earn your greatest wish.

I like the collapse, because it simultaneously hits both of Parson's strategic victory criteria. The weakened size and bonuses of the RCC and (temporarily) increased potential number of uncroaked make the RCC less/un able to take Gobwin Knob. The devastating morale effect on the RCC and destruction of city value make the RCC less/un willing to take Gobwin Knob.

I think Parson just taught Charlie a lesson on the real definition of win-win.

[DCR]

487d6 points of damage. If I'm not much mistaken its a Minmax quote from Goblins.

Take cookie.

[Onmi]

There's nothing Parson could have done to save Bogroll, and given that he existed purely to be a loyal minion, I can imagine no other way he would have chosen to die.

His death is regrettable, but it was also the best Parson could do for him.

No, you can tell from Parson's 'Really!' that he hoped Bogroll survived, there was a CHANCE he could have survived, if the Coallition burning him is a hint then Regenration might allow croaked units to recover when killed if left alone and the corpse mostly intact, over powered, but for a unit that can't move? who has to defend the walls? yeah.

Parson ordered what he did because they burnt Bogroll, He knew there was a good chance he would die, but he hoped otherwise... So they payed for it, if they aren't all dead, they are trapped with Parsons turn up next. (Since Charlie rejoined the Coalition he loses his turn before Parsons)

[slayerx]

Given that Parson had tried Thinkomancy tricks when the Archons were doing their DDR thing, I'm not sure it is reasonable for Ansom to pay no mind to the possibility of magical chicanery. But that's not really the central issue: even though Ansom got a Twoll when he expected Parson, he still voluntarily put himself within arms reach of an enemy whom he considered to be of the basest character. Why would he do that? I understand that he is prideful, but he could have accepted Parson's surrender at a time and place of his own choosing. I mean, how exactly would Parson have refused if Ansom told Charlie to have Parson meet him in the courtyard?

As for the Archons, they were next to him in appearance only. In order for Bogroll to have attacked him, Ansom must have been in the Tower sub-zone, and we know the Archons cannot leave the Airspace zone. If anything had gone wrong, there's nothing the Archons could have done about it from a combat angle (assuming Charlie hadn't been hanging Ansom out to dry). If Parson/Bogroll himself could fly into the airspace zone, then Archons could have lent him support, but that is not what happened.

ansom saw Parson was still able to use thinkamancy due to Maggie's attacks on the archons, NOT foolamancy

Well here i ask, what could parson do on his own?... Ansom may have been up there on his own, but as far as he could see Parson was also up there alone... at any point Ansom could will his carpet to retreat backwards back into airspace. If Parson tried to ambush him with troops, they would be far enough away that he could will his carpet away... if Parson were to attack himself, he would be fighting Ansom one-on-one, which Ansom is likely confident he can win; hell if parson stepped on to that carpet, he could will the carpet back into the airzone where the archons could fry him

the reason bogroll's attack was successful was because bogroll attacked and was not planning on surviving... while Ansom might see Parson engaging him in a duel on his carpet, he would not expect parson to tackle him and try to kill both of them. Had bogroll just simply attacked Ansom he would have met bogroll in combat, willed his carpet back, and let the archons fry him and kill the twoll himself; but bogroll didn't JUST attacked, he tackled him in an attempt to kill them both

And I disagree that this coincides well with the collapse of the city: it has nothing to do with that. Had Parson killed Ansom after the outer walls fell, he might not have needed to collapse the city at all. If the RCC ended its turn, Parson could try any other plans he had, knowing he could still collapse the city at any moment should the need arise. If the RCC pushed on, they would not have had Ansom there to DDR them to victory. It sure seems to me as though killing Ansom earlier had nothing but upside.

Parson states outright, that he would not win if they waited for the archons to join

Actually, this is another problem. Parson makes a big show of how they'd be doomed if Ansom didn't attack on this turn. But how on earth am I supposed to believe that when we now see him collapsing the city and (presumably) devastating the RCC forces in it? If Ansom had camped inside the outer walls HE might have survived (if he stayed on his carpet), but his army wouldn't. And given how easy it was to lure him into a trap, I have an even harder time believing his presence alone would be the difference between the Archons failing to capture the rubble and the Archons succeeding on their next turn.

So what difference did attacking this turn make? AFAICT, it didn't matter in the slightest. It was just a contrived line to add some tension by making it look as though Ansom's tactics made a difference.

several differences...
one, by not attacking the courtyard, ansom's troops would receive no additional damage, so they have higher health... furtharmore, the warlords that sizemore croaked during the battle would still be alive and at full health... and if they tried to do those attacks on their turn, the alliance forces would be 100% on the defensive and thus not be taken by surprised by sizemore's attacks; hell Ansom might have stayed together with all the warlords and thus would have croaked Sizemore if he attempt to pull such an attack, since he would be horribly over powered

We do NOT know how much damage collapsing the city has done, and any units that were not croaked can be healed through heals, or healed completely at the beginning of Ansom's next turn. furtharmore, if Parson were to attack Ansom, they would be fighting outside the courtyard out in the open; if the story of the 300 spartans tells us anything, it's that when you have fewer troops you want to fight in narrow areas to take away the enemies numerical advantage; parson was outnumbered like 4 to 1 i believe... the dance fighting was effective in the courtyard, because it took away ansom's ability to just swarm him and overpower him with numbers, and thus parsons quality troops won out; fighting out in the open the dance fighting would have been less effective as they would be fighting much harder

The idea that she survived without a scratch while her mount was incinerated seems too unlikely to consider without some evidence to back it up. Wanda does seem to have some sort of shield around her in Panel 9 of page 121, but the shield is gone by the time she's falling in Panel 10. I think she took some damage there.

Here you are just simply wrong, wanda took NO damage, that shield protected her and there is no indication at all that a single beam managed to hit her... no damage, pure 100% falling damage... your basis for confusion is under the idea that wanda was dealt more damage than Ansom, but there is no indication that she was hurt by the archons... that shield only popped up when a beam was about to hit her and she blocked it, but the shield only covers her and not her mount so she lost her mount and ended up falling... while most people speculate, and reading between the lines, to help make sense of what's going on, you seem to be doing the opposite; you speculate on what COULD be going on like anyone else, but instead of answering question you are adding confusion... you take that comic page at face value and you get wanda taking no archon damage and nearly dying from hitting the ground

[Nitan]

Ansom. :(

[Onmi]

What I love about this, is there IS no magical revive spell, no ressurection, otherwise Parson would have done that for Misty. Ansom has bit it, and there is no returning from death. The Coalition has lost the only thing that held them together.

As I used to hear all the time playing Dawn of War "Squad Broken!"

[Lombard]

No wai, Ansom will get rezzed or something. Otherwise they would have shown the actual scene of him getting killed. Maybe they have a spell or the artifact will do it or he'll come back even more powerful as Ansom the White.

[lostknight]

Wonderful. I can't express how much I have been enjoying Erfworld.

And for my first post, I hereby postulate that the archons will soon be dwagon-bait.

[ishnar]

Booping hard core.

Ansom is as dead as the tropes we were all expecting to be utilize in his death. No last speech. No last agonizing breath. No inner monologue. No 'avenge me...'

An anti-climatic death is his ultimate defeat.

This is Ghengis Kahn falling off his horse.
This is Alexander the Great dying from getting sick.
This is Elvis on his toilet.

The death of Kahn is pure speculation. Historians can't agree, not only on how he died, but where.

[DevilDan]

Holy boop. They do not kid around. When they deliver want denouement, they really deliver.

I hope that little self-righteous speech was worth it, Ansom.

[Arkaim]

What I love about this, is there IS no magical revive spell, no ressurection, otherwise Parson would have done that for Misty. Ansom has bit it, and there is no returning from death. The Coalition has lost the only thing that held them together.

As I used to hear all the time playing Dawn of War "Squad Broken!"

You know, a master class healomancer may be able to bring people back to life. Of course, this is just speculation, however, if it is true then it would make healomancers very valuabe indeed. In certain situations. As is the Sizemore.

[SmartAlec]

Am I alone in thinking that the object of collapsing the city is not just to wipe out the RCC army, but mainly to force the Archons to fight underground if Charlie wants Parson - and being air units, this will put the Archons at enough of a disadvantage to make Parson's earlier mathamancy prediction for Charlie no longer applicable?

[Crod]

I guess that cuts off the discussion about him having anything to do with FAQ. I find it hard to believe that can be the case now if he's not alive to be confronted by Jillian. It feels like there is a lot of plot yet uncovered, but where can they go from here? A gate in the dungeons was mentioned.

[TamLin]

Well that was anti-climactic. I have trouble believing Bogroll was that tough. Or that Ansom was that squishy. Ah well. Ansom, of course, gets a bad rep just because he talks like d'Artangnan instead of Harry Callahan. He gets called a "prick" for making a victory speech, but if he had spat out a "I'm the best at what I do," or a "Deserves's got nothin' to do with it," instead he would have been being a "badass". Bogroll, of course, might as well have been walking around with a flashing neon target on his chest this entire time. In fact, I think he literally was at one point?

I wonder how long it's going to take Jillian, Vinny, and Stanley to get back?

Btw, would anyone else consider a moratorium on the use of the term "Checkhov's Gun"? It's starting to get a little annoying.

[the_tick_rules]

Wow, that's a massive amount of plot to throw down at once. Ansom and Bogroll both going down at once?! I felt sad for bogroll, he was all right. A post of silence for him.

[Titanium Dragon]

I felt Ansom's death was lame, not because of the manner but because it was offscreen. I would have liked to see him go down and see Bogroll fall fighting. It was rather disappointing this way, and felt very anticlimatic.

Well, for starters I'd have preferred if Ansom hadn't suddenly become stupid enough to accept a knave's surrender all alone, deep in enemy territory at the knave's own insistence, much less within arms reach of said knave. That would have helped.

It was entirely in character. Ansom never was the sharpest tool in the shed. Remember how he wanted to rush off to save a certain barbarian, and Vinny told him not to? This is the same sort of trap. Ansom was playing the hero, as he is wont to, and this time he paid for it.

Thirdly, I'd prefer if Ansom's final defeat didn't just happen because it was suddenly time to wrap up the Ansom storyline. Why on earth did Parson wait until this point to pull this trick? Why didn't he pretend to surrender after Ansom turned the tables on Wanda and broke into the city? There doesn't seem to be any reason this wouldn't have worked just as well then, and it would have made defending the courtyard a lot easier if it had worked. If it hadn't worked then, Parson would be no worse off than if it hadn't worked now.

A few reasons, really.

Firstly, remember, he mentioned his goal is to make the RCC unable or unwilling to take the garrison. Betraying Ansom would have probably just encouraged them to attack them all the harder, and he did not pull this out until the last moment.

Secondly, it involved sacrificing Bogroll, in all probability, something he wouldn't want to do unless he had to.

Third, if it didn't work, he'd have nothing to fall back on. Once he's already "lost", the ruse becomes all the more believable. Additionally, it wasn't until now that he'd wiped out most of the sensible warlords.

this is what I like about this comic - they are not using stereotypes.

Its not a good thing, actually. There's a reason people have death scenes, and its not because it is stereotypical - its because its better.

Sometimes it is appropriate for the villian to die to a single shot to the head, but at least they should die onscreen. Killing major characters offscreen is almost always lame, and the only instance in which it isn't is one wherein the outcome is meant to be ambigious.

I mean, how exactly would Parson have refused if Ansom told Charlie to have Parson meet him in the courtyard?

First off, surrendering from his tower looks more epic.

Secondly, though, it wasn't unreasonable for him to surrender the way he did - wanting to surrender in the presence of Charlie's men is an entirely logical move on Parson's part, and not an illogical suggestion given how much he angered Ansom.

And I disagree that this coincides well with the collapse of the city: it has nothing to do with that. Had Parson killed Ansom after the outer walls fell, he might not have needed to collapse the city at all. If the RCC ended its turn, Parson could try any other plans he had, knowing he could still collapse the city at any moment should the need arise. If the RCC pushed on, they would not have had Ansom there to DDR them to victory. It sure seems to me as though killing Ansom earlier had nothing but upside.

Thing is, you're forgetting when Charlie joined the RCC. When Charlie hadn't joined the RCC, Parson had better than even odds of winning. Once Charlie joined, that was that.

Its also worth noting that the archons are likely not susceptible to ground attacks, or not AS susceptible, which would make his strategy far less effective. With the RCC ground troops destroyed (or at least severely damaged), holed up in the dungeon with a bunch of fresh undead, it may not be a fight the Archons could win at that point. Basically, it was an option of last resort - every time he just took another step back.

[Xeticus]

A couple of things. First. The Royal Coalition is alive!Before the walls came down they were sending unled troops in for the dance fighting. Parson was even complaining that they weren't sending in any more leaders for Sizemore to croak. So whatever troops are left can fall back to the leadership stacks outside and regroup. The coalition has been seriously mauled. I don't know what sort of troops they'll have left. I doubt enough to dig Parson out of the dungeons.

Second Ansom going in to personally take Hamster's surrender is very typical of him. Ansom always led from the front. As leader of the coalition he didn't risk his allies troops needlessly. That's why he led the dancefighting himself, whiy he sent Dora and Webinar into the tunnels. Ansom and Jetstone were always in the lead, always bearing the brunt of the fighting whenever possible. Ansom took royalty very seriously and lived according to his code of noblesse oblige. Unfortunately for him Hamster plays with a different rule book.

Third as for why the archons didn't take any action they were waiting for the start of a full turn. They had recently rejoined the coalition and didn't have their full actions yet. I think that was why Parson was so much of a hurry to spring the trap. he had the do as much damage as possible before the Archons were fully in play.

Anyway that's how I see it.

[MorhgorRB]

The Twoll leveled.
... Twice.

Yeah. He snapped Ansom's neck, and landed on someone important.

[TamLin]

Its not a good thing, actually. There's a reason people have death scenes, and its not because it is stereotypical - its because its better.

Sometimes it is appropriate for the villian to die to a single shot to the head, but at least they should die onscreen. Killing major characters offscreen is almost always lame, and the only instance in which it isn't is one wherein the outcome is meant to be ambigious.

Oh God, I'm getting flashbacks of the debate after "No Country for Old Men" came out about a year back...

Side 1: "Of coure it was anticlimactic, that was the point!"

Side 2: "We realize that was the point, but it being intentional doesn't make it less lame!"

And now I'm getting flashbacks of the debate after the last episode of "The Sopranos" aired a few months before that...

Side 1: "Of coure it was anticlimactic, that was the point!"

Side 2: "We realize that was the point, but it being intentional doesn't make it less lame!"

And now I'm getting flashbacks of the debate after Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar" premiered in 1599...

Myself, I always fall back in the differentiation between a story that's succesful and a story that's entertaining.

[Aquillion]

Second Ansom going in to personally take Hamster's surrender is very typical of him. Ansom always led from the front. As leader of the coalition he didn't risk his allies troops needlessly. That's why he led the dancefighting himself, whiy he sent Dora and Webinar into the tunnels. Ansom and Jetstone were always in the lead, always bearing the brunt of the fighting whenever possible. Ansom took royalty very seriously and lived according to his code of noblesse oblige. Unfortunately for him Hamster plays with a different rule book.

Also, don't forget, he went into the Donut of Doom -- and he would have fallen into a trap very similar to this the first time (when picking up Jillian), for the same reasons, if Vinnie hadn't been there to talk him out of it.

[Voyager_I]

No, you can tell from Parson's 'Really!' that he hoped Bogroll survived, there was a CHANCE he could have survived, if the Coallition burning him is a hint then Regenration might allow croaked units to recover when killed if left alone and the corpse mostly intact, over powered, but for a unit that can't move? who has to defend the walls? yeah.

Parson ordered what he did because they burnt Bogroll, He knew there was a good chance he would die, but he hoped otherwise... So they payed for it, if they aren't all dead, they are trapped with Parsons turn up next. (Since Charlie rejoined the Coalition he loses his turn before Parsons)

That's not what I meant. Parson knew it was a suicide mission, even if he hoped by some miracle Bogroll would survive. In all likelihood, Bogroll knew as well.

However, Bogroll also would have been killed if the city fell, either in battle or via execution, and killing Ansom was one of their last options to tip the odds, and it can probably be assumed that Bogroll was the only available unit with a good chance of succeeding who wasn't absolutely crucial to continued defense thereafter.

[runekiri]

Hey, i didnt have time to read the whole thread, but i wonder if its really that wise to think ansom is dead, i mean, it could have been a really powerfull foolamancer (explaining 2 level ups), i dont know how foolamancy works, but maybe they just made (whatever her name is) THINK bogroll lvld up.

(Im not very familliar with erfworld, ive read all the pages, but im more of an oots fan)

[Werekat]

As a fan of off-screen deaths, I loved the development. Besides being nicely symbolic and very realistic at the same time, as per the post of the man who resides in the place which cannot be changed ;-), I believe it's a good way of showing that Ansom is not nearly a main character. Parson, his army, and their collective reactions are all more important than Ansom.

Although I still can't help but wonder why did Parson drop the city at that precise moment. Are the troops supposed to be more vulnerable without Ansom's bonuses? Was he trying to save Bogroll (though he cannot see the twoll being burned, I assume)? Time will tell, I guess.

Looking very much forward to new comics!

Yeah. He snapped Ansom's neck, and landed on someone important.

*laughs out loud* Win!

[Onmi]

Hey, i didnt have time to read the whole thread, but i wonder if its really that wise to think ansom is dead, i mean, it could have been a really powerfull foolamancer (explaining 2 level ups), i dont know how foolamancy works, but maybe they just made (whatever her name is) THINK bogroll lvld up.

(Im not very familliar with erfworld, ive read all the pages, but im more of an oots fan)

Ansom has no Foolamancer on scene, we can guess from... well from everything that most casters are kept at home. Chances are if he BROUGHT a Foolamancer, Parson would know (breakfast meals)

Ansom is dead. The battle is won, the War may not be over, but this siege definitely will be.

[factotum]

Even if Ansom is dead, I think people are forgetting the minor detail of a Barbarian princess who's in love with him...I can see Jillian becoming the next major antagonist for Erfworld story #2, if it ever gets written. She could return to FAQ and reclaim the city specifically to fight Stanley and Parson.

[Tundar]

Impressive work.

1: Main charachter died off screen - that's a new one. If he really did die? Oh the suspence :)

2: Bogroll died, rest in peace.

3: Sizemore showing impressive powers. Again.


It just doesn't get much better than this.

[DougTheHead]

Holy boop. I guess that ruthlessness really paid off.