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2009-03-11, 11:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Available options.
Each one of Parsons moves have been progressively higher in risk in both success probability and risk to assets. His last option after the walls came down was Dancefighting, because the only way his smaller numbers could hold the castle relied on the Coalition lacking the ability to counteract it effectively.
The idea probably didn't take into account Charlie rejoining the Coalition, since by now Parson must see him as some kind of Deus ex Dorkina. Still, it was the only option shy of dropping the castle right away, which would probably be pointless if you couldn't hold a significant portion of enemy troops in the castle courtyard.
Any option is worthwhile to use before dropping the castle, since if that doesn't work to turn the tide there isn't much less.
"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women" - Might as well have been Ansom
Ansom was just enough of a prig to be unable to resist personally dropping the final hammer of the battle, and just enough of a Royal to think that someone with their back to the wall wouldn't consider suicidal foul play.
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2009-03-11, 11:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Praise me not for my born strengths, but for what I make of them.
Scorn me not for my born faults, but for my failure to overcome them.
The Practical Monk's Manuscript
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2009-03-11, 11:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
All I can say is, Well played Hamster. "do your worse"
~ Shua
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2009-03-11, 11:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Agree with everyone who likes Ansom's lame-ass, non-hero, off-screen death. Kudos to Bogroll, way to earn your greatest wish.
I like the collapse, because it simultaneously hits both of Parson's strategic victory criteria. The weakened size and bonuses of the RCC and (temporarily) increased potential number of uncroaked make the RCC less/un able to take Gobwin Knob. The devastating morale effect on the RCC and destruction of city value make the RCC less/un willing to take Gobwin Knob.
I think Parson just taught Charlie a lesson on the real definition of win-win.Last edited by Ragn Charran; 2009-03-11 at 11:34 PM.
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2009-03-11, 11:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Fulfillment of foreshadowing is not backdoor
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2009-03-11, 11:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
No, you can tell from Parson's 'Really!' that he hoped Bogroll survived, there was a CHANCE he could have survived, if the Coallition burning him is a hint then Regenration might allow croaked units to recover when killed if left alone and the corpse mostly intact, over powered, but for a unit that can't move? who has to defend the walls? yeah.
Parson ordered what he did because they burnt Bogroll, He knew there was a good chance he would die, but he hoped otherwise... So they payed for it, if they aren't all dead, they are trapped with Parsons turn up next. (Since Charlie rejoined the Coalition he loses his turn before Parsons)
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2009-03-11, 11:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
ansom saw Parson was still able to use thinkamancy due to Maggie's attacks on the archons, NOT foolamancy
Well here i ask, what could parson do on his own?... Ansom may have been up there on his own, but as far as he could see Parson was also up there alone... at any point Ansom could will his carpet to retreat backwards back into airspace. If Parson tried to ambush him with troops, they would be far enough away that he could will his carpet away... if Parson were to attack himself, he would be fighting Ansom one-on-one, which Ansom is likely confident he can win; hell if parson stepped on to that carpet, he could will the carpet back into the airzone where the archons could fry him
the reason bogroll's attack was successful was because bogroll attacked and was not planning on surviving... while Ansom might see Parson engaging him in a duel on his carpet, he would not expect parson to tackle him and try to kill both of them. Had bogroll just simply attacked Ansom he would have met bogroll in combat, willed his carpet back, and let the archons fry him and kill the twoll himself; but bogroll didn't JUST attacked, he tackled him in an attempt to kill them both
And I disagree that this coincides well with the collapse of the city: it has nothing to do with that. Had Parson killed Ansom after the outer walls fell, he might not have needed to collapse the city at all. If the RCC ended its turn, Parson could try any other plans he had, knowing he could still collapse the city at any moment should the need arise. If the RCC pushed on, they would not have had Ansom there to DDR them to victory. It sure seems to me as though killing Ansom earlier had nothing but upside.
Actually, this is another problem. Parson makes a big show of how they'd be doomed if Ansom didn't attack on this turn. But how on earth am I supposed to believe that when we now see him collapsing the city and (presumably) devastating the RCC forces in it? If Ansom had camped inside the outer walls HE might have survived (if he stayed on his carpet), but his army wouldn't. And given how easy it was to lure him into a trap, I have an even harder time believing his presence alone would be the difference between the Archons failing to capture the rubble and the Archons succeeding on their next turn.
So what difference did attacking this turn make? AFAICT, it didn't matter in the slightest. It was just a contrived line to add some tension by making it look as though Ansom's tactics made a difference.
one, by not attacking the courtyard, ansom's troops would receive no additional damage, so they have higher health... furtharmore, the warlords that sizemore croaked during the battle would still be alive and at full health... and if they tried to do those attacks on their turn, the alliance forces would be 100% on the defensive and thus not be taken by surprised by sizemore's attacks; hell Ansom might have stayed together with all the warlords and thus would have croaked Sizemore if he attempt to pull such an attack, since he would be horribly over powered
We do NOT know how much damage collapsing the city has done, and any units that were not croaked can be healed through heals, or healed completely at the beginning of Ansom's next turn. furtharmore, if Parson were to attack Ansom, they would be fighting outside the courtyard out in the open; if the story of the 300 spartans tells us anything, it's that when you have fewer troops you want to fight in narrow areas to take away the enemies numerical advantage; parson was outnumbered like 4 to 1 i believe... the dance fighting was effective in the courtyard, because it took away ansom's ability to just swarm him and overpower him with numbers, and thus parsons quality troops won out; fighting out in the open the dance fighting would have been less effective as they would be fighting much harder
The idea that she survived without a scratch while her mount was incinerated seems too unlikely to consider without some evidence to back it up. Wanda does seem to have some sort of shield around her in Panel 9 of page 121, but the shield is gone by the time she's falling in Panel 10. I think she took some damage there.Last edited by slayerx; 2009-03-11 at 11:58 PM.
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2009-03-11, 11:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Ansom. :(
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2009-03-11, 11:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Australia!
Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
What I love about this, is there IS no magical revive spell, no ressurection, otherwise Parson would have done that for Misty. Ansom has bit it, and there is no returning from death. The Coalition has lost the only thing that held them together.
As I used to hear all the time playing Dawn of War "Squad Broken!"
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2009-03-12, 12:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
No wai, Ansom will get rezzed or something. Otherwise they would have shown the actual scene of him getting killed. Maybe they have a spell or the artifact will do it or he'll come back even more powerful as Ansom the White.
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2009-03-12, 12:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Wonderful. I can't express how much I have been enjoying Erfworld.
And for my first post, I hereby postulate that the archons will soon be dwagon-bait.
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2009-03-12, 12:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
"If I could just interrupt your stunningly dysfunctional group dynamic for a moment to interject." -- Erfworld
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2009-03-12, 12:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Holy boop. They do not kid around. When they deliver want denouement, they really deliver.
I hope that little self-righteous speech was worth it, Ansom.Quo vadis?
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2009-03-12, 12:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
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2009-03-12, 12:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Am I alone in thinking that the object of collapsing the city is not just to wipe out the RCC army, but mainly to force the Archons to fight underground if Charlie wants Parson - and being air units, this will put the Archons at enough of a disadvantage to make Parson's earlier mathamancy prediction for Charlie no longer applicable?
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2009-03-12, 12:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
I guess that cuts off the discussion about him having anything to do with FAQ. I find it hard to believe that can be the case now if he's not alive to be confronted by Jillian. It feels like there is a lot of plot yet uncovered, but where can they go from here? A gate in the dungeons was mentioned.
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2009-03-12, 01:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Well that was anti-climactic. I have trouble believing Bogroll was that tough. Or that Ansom was that squishy. Ah well. Ansom, of course, gets a bad rep just because he talks like d'Artangnan instead of Harry Callahan. He gets called a "prick" for making a victory speech, but if he had spat out a "I'm the best at what I do," or a "Deserves's got nothin' to do with it," instead he would have been being a "badass". Bogroll, of course, might as well have been walking around with a flashing neon target on his chest this entire time. In fact, I think he literally was at one point?
I wonder how long it's going to take Jillian, Vinny, and Stanley to get back?
Btw, would anyone else consider a moratorium on the use of the term "Checkhov's Gun"? It's starting to get a little annoying.Last edited by TamLin; 2009-03-12 at 01:17 AM.
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2009-03-12, 01:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Wow, that's a massive amount of plot to throw down at once. Ansom and Bogroll both going down at once?! I felt sad for bogroll, he was all right. A post of silence for him.
I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
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2009-03-12, 01:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
I felt Ansom's death was lame, not because of the manner but because it was offscreen. I would have liked to see him go down and see Bogroll fall fighting. It was rather disappointing this way, and felt very anticlimatic.
Well, for starters I'd have preferred if Ansom hadn't suddenly become stupid enough to accept a knave's surrender all alone, deep in enemy territory at the knave's own insistence, much less within arms reach of said knave. That would have helped.
Thirdly, I'd prefer if Ansom's final defeat didn't just happen because it was suddenly time to wrap up the Ansom storyline. Why on earth did Parson wait until this point to pull this trick? Why didn't he pretend to surrender after Ansom turned the tables on Wanda and broke into the city? There doesn't seem to be any reason this wouldn't have worked just as well then, and it would have made defending the courtyard a lot easier if it had worked. If it hadn't worked then, Parson would be no worse off than if it hadn't worked now.
Firstly, remember, he mentioned his goal is to make the RCC unable or unwilling to take the garrison. Betraying Ansom would have probably just encouraged them to attack them all the harder, and he did not pull this out until the last moment.
Secondly, it involved sacrificing Bogroll, in all probability, something he wouldn't want to do unless he had to.
Third, if it didn't work, he'd have nothing to fall back on. Once he's already "lost", the ruse becomes all the more believable. Additionally, it wasn't until now that he'd wiped out most of the sensible warlords.
this is what I like about this comic - they are not using stereotypes.
Sometimes it is appropriate for the villian to die to a single shot to the head, but at least they should die onscreen. Killing major characters offscreen is almost always lame, and the only instance in which it isn't is one wherein the outcome is meant to be ambigious.
I mean, how exactly would Parson have refused if Ansom told Charlie to have Parson meet him in the courtyard?
Secondly, though, it wasn't unreasonable for him to surrender the way he did - wanting to surrender in the presence of Charlie's men is an entirely logical move on Parson's part, and not an illogical suggestion given how much he angered Ansom.
And I disagree that this coincides well with the collapse of the city: it has nothing to do with that. Had Parson killed Ansom after the outer walls fell, he might not have needed to collapse the city at all. If the RCC ended its turn, Parson could try any other plans he had, knowing he could still collapse the city at any moment should the need arise. If the RCC pushed on, they would not have had Ansom there to DDR them to victory. It sure seems to me as though killing Ansom earlier had nothing but upside.
Its also worth noting that the archons are likely not susceptible to ground attacks, or not AS susceptible, which would make his strategy far less effective. With the RCC ground troops destroyed (or at least severely damaged), holed up in the dungeon with a bunch of fresh undead, it may not be a fight the Archons could win at that point. Basically, it was an option of last resort - every time he just took another step back.
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2009-03-12, 01:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
A couple of things. First. The Royal Coalition is alive!Before the walls came down they were sending unled troops in for the dance fighting. Parson was even complaining that they weren't sending in any more leaders for Sizemore to croak. So whatever troops are left can fall back to the leadership stacks outside and regroup. The coalition has been seriously mauled. I don't know what sort of troops they'll have left. I doubt enough to dig Parson out of the dungeons.
Second Ansom going in to personally take Hamster's surrender is very typical of him. Ansom always led from the front. As leader of the coalition he didn't risk his allies troops needlessly. That's why he led the dancefighting himself, whiy he sent Dora and Webinar into the tunnels. Ansom and Jetstone were always in the lead, always bearing the brunt of the fighting whenever possible. Ansom took royalty very seriously and lived according to his code of noblesse oblige. Unfortunately for him Hamster plays with a different rule book.
Third as for why the archons didn't take any action they were waiting for the start of a full turn. They had recently rejoined the coalition and didn't have their full actions yet. I think that was why Parson was so much of a hurry to spring the trap. he had the do as much damage as possible before the Archons were fully in play.
Anyway that's how I see it.
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2009-03-12, 01:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-03-12, 01:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Oh God, I'm getting flashbacks of the debate after "No Country for Old Men" came out about a year back...
Side 1: "Of coure it was anticlimactic, that was the point!"
Side 2: "We realize that was the point, but it being intentional doesn't make it less lame!"
And now I'm getting flashbacks of the debate after the last episode of "The Sopranos" aired a few months before that...
Side 1: "Of coure it was anticlimactic, that was the point!"
Side 2: "We realize that was the point, but it being intentional doesn't make it less lame!"
And now I'm getting flashbacks of the debate after Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar" premiered in 1599...
Myself, I always fall back in the differentiation between a story that's succesful and a story that's entertaining.Last edited by TamLin; 2009-03-12 at 01:33 AM.
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2009-03-12, 01:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
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2009-03-12, 01:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
That's not what I meant. Parson knew it was a suicide mission, even if he hoped by some miracle Bogroll would survive. In all likelihood, Bogroll knew as well.
However, Bogroll also would have been killed if the city fell, either in battle or via execution, and killing Ansom was one of their last options to tip the odds, and it can probably be assumed that Bogroll was the only available unit with a good chance of succeeding who wasn't absolutely crucial to continued defense thereafter.Praise me not for my born strengths, but for what I make of them.
Scorn me not for my born faults, but for my failure to overcome them.
The Practical Monk's Manuscript
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2009-03-12, 01:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Hey, i didnt have time to read the whole thread, but i wonder if its really that wise to think ansom is dead, i mean, it could have been a really powerfull foolamancer (explaining 2 level ups), i dont know how foolamancy works, but maybe they just made (whatever her name is) THINK bogroll lvld up.
(Im not very familliar with erfworld, ive read all the pages, but im more of an oots fan)
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2009-03-12, 02:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
As a fan of off-screen deaths, I loved the development. Besides being nicely symbolic and very realistic at the same time, as per the post of the man who resides in the place which cannot be changed ;-), I believe it's a good way of showing that Ansom is not nearly a main character. Parson, his army, and their collective reactions are all more important than Ansom.
Although I still can't help but wonder why did Parson drop the city at that precise moment. Are the troops supposed to be more vulnerable without Ansom's bonuses? Was he trying to save Bogroll (though he cannot see the twoll being burned, I assume)? Time will tell, I guess.
Looking very much forward to new comics!
*laughs out loud* Win!There are thousands of good reasons magic doesn't rule the world. They're called mages. - Slightly misquoted Pratchett
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2009-03-12, 02:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Ansom has no Foolamancer on scene, we can guess from... well from everything that most casters are kept at home. Chances are if he BROUGHT a Foolamancer, Parson would know (breakfast meals)
Ansom is dead. The battle is won, the War may not be over, but this siege definitely will be.
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2009-03-12, 02:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Even if Ansom is dead, I think people are forgetting the minor detail of a Barbarian princess who's in love with him...I can see Jillian becoming the next major antagonist for Erfworld story #2, if it ever gets written. She could return to FAQ and reclaim the city specifically to fight Stanley and Parson.
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2009-03-12, 02:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Impressive work.
1: Main charachter died off screen - that's a new one. If he really did die? Oh the suspence :)
2: Bogroll died, rest in peace.
3: Sizemore showing impressive powers. Again.
It just doesn't get much better than this.
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2009-03-12, 02:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Holy boop. I guess that ruthlessness really paid off.