Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132

[Axl_Rose]

I don't think it's particularly likely to happen, but I'd be entertained if

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The pliers function something like an Anhk of Reincarnation and brings Ansom back to life

It'd be keeping up with one particular motif throughout the series though.

[TamLin]

I'm skeptical about any sort of "rez magic". Of course, I'm also skeptical that the battle is over. If some people's predicions held any water, this would be the second or third time that Ansom has croaked and the fourth or fifth time that the coalition has been "defeated" (going all the way back to the Donut of Doom. Who came up with that term anyway?).

[TheTurnipKing]

No way is Ansom actually dead.

He's croaked. There may or may not be a resurrection ritual for heroes, it's difficult to say, though it doesn't seem to fit if there is.

I'm curious as to how Maggie knows that Bogroll was croaked, though I suppose she was under his direct command, so I'm guessing she can probably see his stats.

Called the collapse though. I suppose that's pretty much the end of the "Battle of Gobwin Knob", though it does leave an interesting tactical situation.

[Onmi]

Even if Jillian does take FAQ, she only has her remaining barbarians, you think she can build up faster than Parson? with Ansom gone it's unlikely anyone's going to go to her aid. Dragon swarm here, FAQ taken, second headquarters.

Unless She's the AI in Gihren's Ambition, then she has Unlimited Funds.

[Vreejack]

Did the main villain just die offscreen?

Yes. But that appears to be SOP for this story. I predicted way back when that Misty would not die off screen, but she did.

Most everyone dies off-screen in the real world, but you expect something different in drama. So here we have a shot of one of his allies grieving for him. Do you really need to see the splatter? Meanwhile Bogroll is being burned. Do you really need to see his suffering?

[hajo]

RIP Bogroll

Endgame, indeed

I wonder how end-of-turn is determined when the usual commander is out...

Also, how much does it cost to rebuild a city, and how long does it take ?

[Justyn]

Also, how much does it cost to rebuild a city, and how long does it take ?

If it can be done by magically taking money out of the treasury and having the city itself do the work, probably a few days to a couple weeks, if even "days" plural... If it has to be done by hand? Considering that there is no heavy industrial equipment, and the fact that they just collapsed the better part of a mountain? With the manpower they have now, we are talking years, if not decades of work.

As for how cost works... we have no frame of reference to what anything costs in Erfworld beyond that Stanley believes that 1,000 Shmuckers a turn for upkeep is high, that 2500 for a two-way thinkagram is somewhat in the high range, and that 500,000 is enough to empty the treasury of a nation that has been beaten back to its capital.

[Ave]

If it can be done by magically taking money out of the treasury and having the city itself do the work, probably a few days to a couple weeks, if even "days" plural... If it has to be done by hand? Considering that there is no heavy industrial equipment, and the fact that they just collapsed the better part of a mountain? With the manpower they have now, we are talking years, if not decades of work.

Funny you talk about lack of 'manpower', they got lotsa potential manpower (i mean uncroaked).

[Revlid]

Hurm. As awesome as seeing Gobwin Knob collapse like that was, it was undermined by the anti-climatic nature of Ansom's death - just one page, dedicated to showing Bogroll smash Ansom into the ground, and then get dragged down by the angry mob, would have been brilliant. Instead, it happens off-screen.

As disappointed as I am, I sincerely hope the pliers don't resurrect Ansom. There's been enough ass-pulling on his end already.

[Justyn]

Funny you talk about lack of 'manpower', they got lotsa potential manpower (i mean uncroaked).

If you mean Manpower, he got destroyed. And those uncroaked are not going to last long.

[pendell]

Legends are, generally written by the winners;

I don't believe that's true. Again, American Civil War and Ireland; it's the losers in those wars who have all the mythmaking -- the winners have moved on.

As towards who will observe it .. you've already noted that the Archons observed what happened. I'm sure Jillian will ask them what happened and pay a minimal price to find out. From her the rest of the RCC and Vinnie etc. will learn about it. And from there it's in the hands of the bards or what not.

The idea found in 'Da Vinci Code' or Orwell's '1984' that a Ministry of Truth can overwrite human history for all time ... well, doesn't seem to happen often in real life. Remember the Samizdat and the dissidents of Soviet-Era Russia. The Soviets put a lot of effort into trying to control thought at all levels of society, and yet somehow the bankruptcy of their system hit home with the people actually living there.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[teratorn]

It's sad but Bogroll was the only one Parson could trust to do this. He was absolutely loyal.

I'm not sure Parson will be able to recover most of these corpses, they'll have a lot of rubble on top of them. Besides better if Wanda spends all of her juice on Ansom. If properly uncroaked, maybe undead Ansom maintains most of the bonuses he had when living. That, added with Wanda's necro-bonus, could make even Charlie hold back.

[rxmd]

Legends are, generally written by the winners

No, legends are usually written by the losers. It's history that is written by the winner.

History is full of examples: In Germany there's lots of holocaust revisionism and discussions about superweapons that could have been brought to the fron within weeks, or there's East German nostalgia about the lost qualities of life, in American there's all the Confederate stuff, in Russia there's weird Cold War nostalgia, etc.

[ReccaSquirrel]

I understand why a lot of people are disappointed with the sudden and jarring way we learn of Ansom and Bogrolls death. Some people feel cheated. But I suspect that's the point. When we play video games or role playing games like Parson is accustomed to, we get dramatic deaths right there in front of us. You might have a major duel and finally watch as the bad-guy succumbs. But this is not a game (or at least to Parson). Parson had to give Bogroll an order he knew was going to kill him. The way we learn of the outcome of the order is not for our, the reader's sake, to see Ansom's dramatic demise and Bogroll sacrifice. It is for us to feel how Parson did just now when he learned of the outcome.

For a brief moment, there was the tiniest bit of hope in Parson. There was no cheering or celebration when he learned that Bogroll succeeded. There was no witty comment. There was a sense of doubt that he needed to understand more fully. Then, when he learned Bogroll leveled, the surprise kicks in for perhaps the hope that Bogroll made it. But he learns Bogroll did not the pain of that loss hits him. That's when he orders the city tower destroyed.

This comic very effectively showed to us the character of Parson at a very critical part in his life. The time when he learned of the outcome of orders he gave to someone he considered a friend. It served as a painful reminder to us that to Parson, this is real and not a game.

[DMcCoy1693]

Goodbye Bogroll. I will miss you.

[glenndo]

What I don't get is, why did Parson bother to have Bogroll kill Ansom if they were going to collapse the whole thing anyways. All they would have needed to do was get Ansom of his flying carpet, and he would have croaked with everyone else. It seems un-Parson like to finsih a personal vendetta, when just doing the second part of the plan would have achieved the same results.

[HandofShadows]

Wow. Really didn't think Ansom would bite it so early. Didn't have much hope for Bogroll making it. There is a microscopic chance he will pull though if the cavein put the fire out on time. That makes two characters from the "cast page' dead. Will all of be dead by the end of the story? It's one way to get narrative distance.

As things stand the RCC is royaly screwed. They lost Ansom their commander, they lost all the main warlords at GK and chain of comand is shattered. The lost almost all their ground troops at GK, but they aren't dead yet. There where other forces comeing up behind that where to support Ansom and there should be a few more minor warlords there. Vinny is still alive and so is Jillian. And Jillian is going to br very pissed off and may take command of the RCC through force of will.
GK lost Bogroll and has only limited forces left and few, if any intact defences. But they may be able to "rebuild" some if Wanda can get some halfway intact bodies from the cave in. Sizemore still has his Golums and Stanley is comeing back with some dwagons and an Arkentool. It's possiable that the Arkenpliers could be recovered if someone could find them in the rubble.
The biggest question will be Charlie. Was his contact with Ansom and is it void now? Will he still support the RCC? Will he openly make a play for the Arkenpliers and violate the mercinary status?

[HandofShadows]

What I don't get is, why did Parson bother to have Bogroll kill Ansom if they were going to collapse the whole thing anyways. All they would have needed to do was get Ansom of his flying carpet, and he would have croaked with everyone else. It seems un-Parson like to finsih a personal vendetta, when just doing the second part of the plan would have achieved the same results.

Ansom always kept his carpet nearby, there would have been no way of catching/killing him when GK came down. Also takeing out Ansom drew almost all the the RCC's local forces into GK as well as their warlords. Parson got most everyone in one fell swoop. If Ansom was still alive he would have meet up with the other forces heading to GK and might have been able to continue to attack.

[DigoDragon]

While I figured Bogroll was going to by the farm, I didn't expect Ansom to kick the bucket on the way to the pastures. Wow, ruthless indeed
I hope Stanley had GK insured.

[TAG]

You know, now that there is no city to preserve, I wonder if Siezmore can tap back into the lava flows and "resurrect" the volcano (while the few living members of GK's defense escape) as a final killing blow to the coalition.

[Nomti]

As for Ansom also being dead, well, I believe the game has a HP mechanic. Ansom had already fought a lot that day, draining that HP to shrug the blows from all the undeads and Wanda. His HP should be on his last digits. This allowed Bogroll, as a heavy, to score those final points and bring him down. Hamster had the mathmancy artifact. He would surely send someone who had a good chance of taking out Ansom for good.

I think this misses something. I'd be willing to bet that Bogroll's odds were lousy. Remember, Parson is surprised that Ansom is dead. I think that was a combo of luckamancy and the fact that longshot isn't noshot.

It wouldn't surprise me to see a comment on it in a future strip. Something along the lines of "Yeah, surprised me too. That was a 13.6 percent chance. Just lucky, I suppose."

nomti

[Hatu]

It was entirely in character. Ansom never was the sharpest tool in the shed. Remember how he wanted to rush off to save a certain barbarian, and Vinny told him not to? This is the same sort of trap. Ansom was playing the hero, as he is wont to, and this time he paid for it.

Ansom has not been portrayed with William Wallace's ability to ferret out traps, that is true. But the trap he winds up falling for is absurdly simple. Meeting an untrustworthy enemy all by yourself has an obvious and clear risk - that the person you meet will attack you. And sure enough, that's exactly what happens here. Parson didn't foil Ansom's contingency plans or misdirect him with an obvious feint, because Ansom hadn't given the least thought to what he would do if anything unexpected happened during this truce.

I think that's a good deal more blatantly stupid than Ansom's headstrong plan to rescue Jillian himself. Firstly, because we never saw the details of that plan; presumably there was some sort of ruse involved and Parson wasn't counting on Ansom to fall for a Dwagon with a blonde wig. Secondly, because Ansom has clearly learned to respect Parson since then. He specifically presses the attack this turn to avoid giving Lord Hamster more time to plan. After all the trouble Parson has caused, wouldn't Ansom at least contemplate that doing something that Parson himself requested could be bad?

At least make Parson have to lie twice.

Firstly, remember, he mentioned his goal is to make the RCC unable or unwilling to take the garrison. Betraying Ansom would have probably just encouraged them to attack them all the harder, and he did not pull this out until the last moment.

Secondly, it involved sacrificing Bogroll, in all probability, something he wouldn't want to do unless he had to.

Third, if it didn't work, he'd have nothing to fall back on. Once he's already "lost", the ruse becomes all the more believable. Additionally, it wasn't until now that he'd wiped out most of the sensible warlords.

The first and third points make no sense to me. Ansom provides a leadership bonus, presumably a large one. Even if killing him would enrage the RCC rather than splinter it, surely eliminating Ansom's bonus would be worth it; Parson was real big on the importance of force multipliers a few pages ago. Besides, the RCC should be just as enraged now, and they've already used Ansom's bonus and DDR skills to kill a bunch of GK's forces. If Parson can survive their rage now, he could have survived it when he was in an even stronger position.

Similarly, if the plan fails, the consequences would be just as bad now as they would have been then. Unless there's some specific reason why Ansom would be more likely to smell a rat, the plan has the same risk of failure either way. And I've seen no reason why Ansom would be more likely to smell a rat back then. He was just as arrogant, and he'd been trumping Parson's tricks as a matter of course. He had just breached the city's walls despite losing thousands of troops and boosting Parson's army by a large factor. Yet he broke through and had GK within his grasp. If Ansom is stupid enough to fall for this trick now, he was stupid enough to fall for it then.

Your second point, that Parson was reluctant to sacrifice Bogroll, is a good one. At the same time, there's no reason why this plan needed Bogroll specifically to work: Parson could have picked any burly unit to be veiled. Bogroll was not portrayed as particularly strong or smart (definitely not smart). Nor have I seen evidence that any of the other Twolls or KISS would have refused a suicidal order (given that it had an obviously beneficial goal), so I don't think loyalty was the issue. Would Parson really hesitate to sacrifice someone less close to him to eliminate Ansom? I'm not sure. But it is at least a valid argument.

Thing is, you're forgetting when Charlie joined the RCC. When Charlie hadn't joined the RCC, Parson had better than even odds of winning. Once Charlie joined, that was that.

Its also worth noting that the archons are likely not susceptible to ground attacks, or not AS susceptible, which would make his strategy far less effective. With the RCC ground troops destroyed (or at least severely damaged), holed up in the dungeon with a bunch of fresh undead, it may not be a fight the Archons could win at that point. Basically, it was an option of last resort - every time he just took another step back.

But again, everything you say about the RCC ground forces and Archons is just as much of a concern in this situation. If Parson killed Ansom after the outer wall was breeched, how would the RCC have been any more dangerous to him then than it is now?

Even knowing the Archons could join up with an offensive next turn, Parson still tried to defend the courtyard this turn. He obviously though inflicting lopsided casualties would be worth it. Since he'd have inflicted far more lopsided casualties without Ansom there to counter the dance-fighting bonus, I can only assume Parson would have come out ahead. And if by some fluke he didn't, he could still evacuate his troops to the dungeon and detonate GK around the RCC just like he is doing now.

Fundamentally, Parson's plan to kill Ansom had nothing to do with his plan to blow up the city. He could execute either one independently of the other. In a lot of ways, I think it would have been better if the two were related: for example, if Bogroll wasn't supposed to kill Ansom himself, just get him on the ground so the collapse would finish him off.

Intertwining the two plans this way would actually address a few of my concerns. First, it would provide a clear reason for why this plan isn't used until the very end - it destroys most of the city. Second, it makes trap Ansom falls for somewhat more subtle: the danger isn't the obvious risk of "Parson" attacking him, it's being on the ground rather than flying. Still something a cunning warlord might notice, but no longer something a child could point out to him.

It would still be a very abrupt end to Ansom, but at least it would be better grounded in the story (no pun intended).

Its not a good thing, actually. There's a reason people have death scenes, and its not because it is stereotypical - its because its better.

Sometimes it is appropriate for the villian to die to a single shot to the head, but at least they should die onscreen. Killing major characters offscreen is almost always lame, and the only instance in which it isn't is one wherein the outcome is meant to be ambigious.

I'm not sure to whom you're responding here, but on this I agree with you.

-H

[Gamebird]

Yay! Ansom is dead!


And I'm not sure there's no city to preserve. One of the city segments is still controlled by Gobwin Knob forces. No one can claim to have taken a city until they control ALL parts of it. Parson bringing down the tower and courtyard parts was critical to destroying a large part of the RCC forces, which is critical to him being able to maintain control of a part of Gobwin Knob and thereby hold the city. Killing Ansom and so many RCC troops maximizes his chances of dissolving the coalition. His goal isn't to hold Gobwin Knob, but to make his enemies unwilling or incapable of taking it. He's progressing well towards accomplishing that goal.

[AdmiralKit]

Ansom has not been portrayed with William Wallace's ability to ferret out traps, that is true. But the trap he winds up falling for is absurdly simple. Meeting an untrustworthy enemy all by yourself has an obvious and clear risk - that the person you meet will attack you. And sure enough, that's exactly what happens here. Parson didn't foil Ansom's contingency plans or misdirect him with an obvious feint, because Ansom hadn't given the least thought to what he would do if anything unexpected happened during this truce.

I think that's a good deal more blatantly stupid than Ansom's headstrong plan to rescue Jillian himself. Firstly, because we never saw the details of that plan; presumably there was some sort of ruse involved and Parson wasn't counting on Ansom to fall for a Dwagon with a blonde wig. Secondly, because Ansom has clearly learned to respect Parson since then. He specifically presses the attack this turn to avoid giving Lord Hamster more time to plan. After all the trouble Parson has caused, wouldn't Ansom at least contemplate that doing something that Parson himself requested could be bad?

At least make Parson have to lie twice.

Hatu, I think all of this comes down to your expectations on how Ansom would behave. Most of us see his actions as being completely in line with his personality. He's an above-average commander with strength in numbers and a variety of blind spots in terms of his strategic capabilities. The main things that we've seen about Ansom is that he's righteous to the point of arrogance, haughty about his position relative to others, a pretty honorable fellow, and not very cunning.

What Parson did was play these personality traits to get Ansom where he needed to be. When you play cunning against arrogance and honor, you're going to get under the skin of the person who is arrogant and honorable. Arrogance means you have to go up and rub it in that you're better, and honorable means that you accept the surrender by your enemy's chief in person; cunning is the ability to set the trap. It's like a good poker player: you play the person and not the cards. We've already seen that Ansom gets extremely offended when the idea of royalty being superior is impugned, and this was supposed to be his chance to prove that royalty is best above all.

As for your complaints about Bogroll vs. Ansom, well, Bogroll didn't need to do anything besides knock Ansom off his carpet and let gravity does the rest. Bogroll gets the XP because he was the character most responsible for dealing the damage, but it's not so much that Bogroll kicked the snot out of Ansom as he got the one sneak attack he needed. Bogroll is comparable to Parson's size, while most Erfworlders are significantly smaller. Simple physics dictates that Force = Mass * Accelleration, and Bogroll had mass and accelleration on his side against a surprised (and moving slightly backward to avoid the assault) Ansom. It's a suicide tactic, pure and simple, but the complete irrationality of suicide tactics is what makes them extremely difficult to defend against.

As for your Ansom vs. Wanda falling arguments, look at the respective heights they fell from. When the Archons destroyed Wanda's mount (as their attack only hurt air units), Wanda was (let's assume, given the panel) 10-15 feet in the air. A fall from that height is survivable, but can be deadly if taken right, and without the healomancy spells she'd have been croaked by now anyway. Ansom's fall was from a significantly bigger height. The Tower Efdup was, reasonably, at least 100' tall, and Ansom and Bogroll were at the highest level that one could stand on the tower. They had a lot farther to fall, which gives them more time to accellerate and get more force behind them before they hit the ground. Not many people fall from those kinds of heights and survive it.


Just some things to keep in mind when you think about it more.
-K

[BillyJimBoBob]

No way is Ansom actually dead.

Yes, he is. Bogroll would not have leveled (twice!) without getting a kill. At least he died a 7. Parson shows again and again that he isn't just a gamer. In the strip Bogroll asked if Parson had a mission for him, Parson says "I hope not." Then, when Parson says to Bogroll "You've got your mission," the next panel shows a very unhappy Parson. And the "oh," and the hanging head upon hearing that Bogroll was croaked again shows his humanity.

Ansom, weakened by Wanda's uber witchslap into falling damage and hordes of undead, perhaps a direct damage spell from a scroll or twelve, takes... um, 9.81 m/s^2 + Bogroll... 487d6 falling damage (cookie for reference catch) without his helmet this time (credit for pointing that out to lamech) and is croaked. Persons seeing this as contrived/backdoor... I disagree. Politely, respectfully - but totally uncompromisingly as well.

Goblins. I'll have a macaroon, please. And I agree, Anson had been wounded previously in the turn. I did wonder about Bogroll's chances given that he was only a 5 vs. warlord who I figure is a 9 at minimum plus the Arcenpliers. He lost the 'Pliers right off, but a 9 vs a 5 is still poor odds. The falling damage must have sealed the deal, with Bogroll's regeneration letting him live until swarmed by the RCC troops.

Don't write off Bogroll just yet. The RCC troops are burning the "beast" for a reason.

They burned him to croak him. We don't know for sure what Regeneration does, but Bogroll is dead. Maggie has "unitovision", and wouldn't report it if it was not a done deal. I wish we had seen Jillian burn the Twoll she killed while scouting, because that failure to show any special means required to completely finish a twoll was a missed opportunity.

RIP Bogroll, he was a very sympathetic character and I'd have liked for him to make it through this chapter.

[Tweed]

Oh God, I'm getting flashbacks of the debate after "No Country for Old Men" came out about a year back...

Side 1: "Of coure it was anticlimactic, that was the point!"

Side 2: "We realize that was the point, but it being intentional doesn't make it less lame!"

And now I'm getting flashbacks of the debate after the last episode of "The Sopranos" aired a few months before that...

Side 1: "Of coure it was anticlimactic, that was the point!"

Side 2: "We realize that was the point, but it being intentional doesn't make it less lame!"

And now I'm getting flashbacks of the debate after Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar" premiered in 1599...

Myself, I always fall back in the differentiation between a story that's succesful and a story that's entertaining.

In my opinion this is the best rebuttal to the anticlimactic argument I've yet read. You, sir, deserve a cupcake!

[Raguzert]

The best page i've seen since started reading Erfworld. Really hope that all that happened there is settled!

[CaptC]

This may have been mentioned elsewhere, but I don't have time to read everything today, I'm afraid.

To those saying that Wanda is going to raise an uber-army: They have to control the battlefield where the slain lay for her to use her necromancy. The reason she could raise her first host was because they owned the tunnels where the bodies lay.

But Parson and the GK units are retreating to the dungeon - so Wanda doesn't have access to the bodies above-ground.

[spotmarkedx]

I think this misses something. I'd be willing to bet that Bogroll's odds were lousy. Remember, Parson is surprised that Ansom is dead. I think that was a combo of luckamancy and the fact that longshot isn't noshot.

It wouldn't surprise me to see a comment on it in a future strip. Something along the lines of "Yeah, surprised me too. That was a 13.6 percent chance. Just lucky, I suppose."

nomti

This.

I refer you to this recent strip: here

[Pointyleaf]

I think this misses something. I'd be willing to bet that Bogroll's odds were lousy. Remember, Parson is surprised that Ansom is dead. I think that was a combo of luckamancy and the fact that longshot isn't noshot.

It wouldn't surprise me to see a comment on it in a future strip. Something along the lines of "Yeah, surprised me too. That was a 13.6 percent chance. Just lucky, I suppose."

nomti

Parson is surprised that Bogroll leveled twice and hopeful that Bogroll might be alive. I don't think he's that surprised that Bogroll won.