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2009-03-12, 11:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Gah, you beat me to it. Came here to say that, so I'll say it even though it's now been said:
Even if Bogroll did ZERO damage it's not unreasonable to think the fall alone could kill Ansom.
Even if Wanda took damage from the Archon's attack, it's not unreasonable for the fall to have left her wounded rather than croaked.
As said above, Wanda was flying down to grab the pliers when her mount was destroyed, and she was nearly there - if anything I'd say the falling damage she took would be from the inertia she already had built up flying down there. The actual distance involved was nothing. Ansom, meanwhile, fell from a MASSIVE height.
It may be wrong to figure physics into it, of course, since this isn't the real world. I'd think the most likely thing would be to assume that there's a fixed amount of damage (or fixed number of damage 'dice') per X feet. If that were, say, ten... then Wanda would have taken maybe 2X while Ansom took something closer to 10X. It's a big difference, and I'm betting that X does not equal 1.
FWIW: I would have liked to see Ansom hit the dirt, but it doesn't bother me that they did it the way they did. The little 'urk' noise as Bogroll clamped around his neck is enough.
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2009-03-12, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Well, one thing you have to keep in mind is that we don't know how much damage the collapse actually caused.... we don't know how many units were croaked, if they were badly damaged ofr if it was only enough to croak the heavily wounded or those that got hit hard like having an entire wall fall on top of them
In thoery, much of the coalition could still be alive and ansom and the other remaining warlords could have also survived the attack like that... If Ansom was not croaked this move would just piss him off... he would gather his forces back together, have the healers heal as much as they could and probably push on the charge... With Ansom gone however, his charisma is no longer a factor and as such the remaining warlords might be more willing to call it a day and leave.
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2009-03-12, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
We're no strangers to warfare
You have your rules, and so do I
My lord's survival's what I'm thinking of
You would have simply croaked any other guy
I... just want to crush you into the ground
But you need to understand
never gonna let you up
never gonna let you out
never gonna let you hurt my lord hamster
And I'm gonna make you die
With no chance to say goodbye
And your Jillian's gonna cry 'cuz I broke you.
RIP Bogroll. Best. Lackey. Ever.
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2009-03-12, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
GK will get their turn before the RCC (unless the shift to a new command changes where the RCC falls in the daily turn order). If the RCC pulls back from the ruins, or the surviving units holding the ruins are too weak to withstand a sortie from the dungeon, they'll be able to retake the area, though there's also the question of whether the bodies are now buried out of reach.
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2009-03-12, 11:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
To those that say Ansom went alone, he had an escort of Archons. It's not entirely his fault that they screwed him like that.
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2009-03-12, 11:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-03-12, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Ansom was a royal who ganged up on non royals. Charlie is a non royal.
Charlie was in it for the *money*, not for helping a friend. Both Ansom and Stanley were threats/enemies, both sides are now weaker and Charlie is richer. Still a win-win for him, will remain so if he doesn't "get a bloody nose" by losing more Archons than the fees cover.
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2009-03-12, 12:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
I agree. Maybe this is one for a flashback. When Ansom gets rezzed with a 1-up mushroom, or a phoenix down, or something. I hope he truly IS dead. It's time for a new villain for us to love/loathe.
If Wanda has the juice to raise all those buried as undead it would make digging after Hamster a serious pain-in-the-ass. Dig up a rock, fight zombies, dig up another rock, fight more. I suspect though, that Stanley will arrive with his remaining Dwagons, rout the remainders of Ansoms demoralized armies. Then claim to be winner via his own skills. Stanley is still going to *BOOP* himself when he sees the smoking crater that was his home.
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2009-03-12, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
I was wondering the same thing. I've also been wondering how the mechanics work for Ansom, and not his king, to be the one to be calling for the end of turns, while in the field and not aware of what the king might be doing with the forces remaining to him back home. This is a huge contrast with Parson worrying about Stanley possibly ending turn at a poor moment.
Anson did have a potent bodyguard force with him, while "Parson" was alone. This does beg the question of why the Archons just hovered there and didn't help at all. Why were they there, if not for a situation such as this? Ansom didn't need a force of mercenaries to conduct his acceptance of Parson's surrender, especially if they are so unreliable as to be useless in any contingency which may arise. So perhaps the Archons were there simply to take Parson into custody. Which brings us back to Ansom being in essence alone, which if correct was a rather stupid decision on his part.
Charlie: Parson says he needs a truce so that he can surrender to you on top of the tower.
Smart Ansom: Ok. Your Archons can be present to bring him into custody. But, tell him to meet me at the base of the tower instead, since I have no flying forces of my own. I'm the victor, I set the terms.
There was a general melee in progress. Then Parson called for a retreat and for Charlie to relay his desire to surrender to Ansom. Then we see the RCC forces in field parade in front of the tower, after the panels where it can be assumed that Ansom is receiving communications from Charlie. I think it's safe to assume that Ansom relayed what was going on to his other warlords, and then they arrayed their troops formally.
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2009-03-12, 01:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
It's not that he IS dead, it's how he died. The battle that killed Ansom should have taken 2-3 strips and his death should have been portrayed. Not... he's alive in the last panel of one strip.... and then dead in the beginning of the next.
Do the words 'anticlimactic' mean anything?
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2009-03-12, 01:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
And... in spite of what I posted a moment ago...
I just have to say this one more time:
Ansom, when the troll fell.
Last edited by Starwaster; 2009-03-12 at 01:37 PM.
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2009-03-12, 01:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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2009-03-12, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
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2009-03-12, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2005
Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
I can't really speak about your first two examples as I am not particularly familiar with them.
Shakespeare's "The Tragedie of Julius Caesar", however, is a work of fictionalized history. Of course it's not anticlimactic if you know the story.
Or is it?
A couple years ago, I was in a production of Caesar. With a modern audience, just about everybody knows that Caesar was killed by a gang of senators and the famous line 'Et tu, Brutus?'. Does that mean the death scene was anticlimactic? No! It was wonderfully climactic, even though it's only halfway into the play!
Have you ever seen the play staged? Shakespeare really isn't meant to be read.
For that matter, the BBC/HBO/RAI show Rome pretty much shows the same time frame as Shakespeare's plays (starts a little earlier than Caesar and ends roughly at the end of Antony and Cleopatra). Is it anticlimactic? Not even to me, even though I was already very familiar with both Shakespeare's and Pluturch's renditions of the story).
The big mistake (particularly with the play) is in assuming that just because it's named after Caesar, he is the protagonist. It is quite clearly the story of Brutus (though I'm not sure as anyone qualifies as a protagonist).
You don't get to use the phrase 'gang of senators' every day...Last edited by fendrin; 2009-03-12 at 01:58 PM.
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2009-03-12, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
"Smart Ansom" would be just as dead after Sizemore came up from under the ground and 4chaned him after Bogroll's surprise attack. And in either case, collapsing the city would have finished Ansom off even if Bogroll failed.
Even knowing what we know now, it seems to me that Ansom was safer accepting Parson's surrender on the tower near where he had complete air superiority and away from the dirtomancer that he knew was capable of sniping commanders regardless of how many troops they were surrounded by.
The only way Ansom could have saved himself is if he sent someone else to accept Parson's surrender instead or simply choose not to accept a surrender and 'needlessly' put his soliders at risk, which I believe would be highly uncharacteristic of who Ansom was in the first place.
For Ansom to believe that Parson or his doppleganger put his life at risk at the tower would require him to assign traits to Parson that he was unwilling to do, namely that Parson/Bogroll was loyal enough to sacrifice their own life to save Gobwin Knob.
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2009-03-12, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
My first reaction was to be a bit disappointed. But after letting it sink in for a while, I must say this is a very strong update. It feels very artistic with great graphics that capture the sad loss of both Bogrol and Ansom. One of the best. It feels very final, but I have a feeling we have a few more turns left.
And you have to love the uncroaked marbit.
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2009-03-12, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2005
Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Arguably, if Ansom was using his carpet as a stage just a few feet off the ground, he could have flown up to evade whatever Sizemore tried to do. Essentially, Parson's plan was playing the player, not the game. He used Ansom's overweening pride to take him down. Pretty much the definition of hubris, and the sort of thing that makes 'pride goeth before a fall' downright literal in this case.
Besides, when have we seen Ansom acting intelligently?
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2009-03-12, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-03-12, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Ansom, a lord in the style of old,
Disliked by others to be told,
How nobility's dead,
But so swelled was his head,
That the fool let himself get Bogroll'd
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2009-03-12, 03:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Well, it was intended as a light-hearted jab, but still...
You've got a clash of diametrically opposed leader archetypes.
You've got escalating move/countermove exchanges for page after page.
You've got a mass battle, complete with musical score, before the gates of a magic tower.
You've got stunning (and very symbolic), last-minute treachery at the top of the tower, high above the massed army.
You've got a suicidal assault.
You've got a deadly plummet from the sky.
You've got a city collapsing into a volcano.*
All of this, for someone who isn't, in my humble opinion, even the primary antagonist. What more do you want? Do the Titans have to appear in a rain of fire and sequins?
My only concern is that it might make the rest of the story--and there's still a bit more to come--seem small and petty by comparison.
*I find this striking for a reason beyond the sheer scale of it. When the dark fortress collapses, it's usually because the villain has just been killed.
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2009-03-12, 03:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Does anyone know the rules for units leveling up?
Bogroll leveling up twice might mean one (or both) of two things:
1) Being the one to finally croak Ansom simply gave him lots of XP, and Erf uses a mechanic where all the XP award for croaking a given unit goes to the one who makes the killing blow, regardless of who did previous damage to the unit or had any other role in its croaking.
2) The mechanics of leveling takes 'heroism' into account, suggesting that a lot happened between 144 and 145, with Bogroll not only taking out Ansom but also making a particularly heroic last stand against impossible odds. That this is unseen in the comic adds IMO to the sense of the loneliness of Bogroll's fate and the depths of his loyalty to Hamster, as well as the extent to which Parson is sobered by his sacrifice."Vuwcan" avatar from Erfworld, written by Rob Balder and illustrated by Jamie Noguchi.
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2009-03-12, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
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- PST
Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
The Archons had already moved when Charlie ended his turn. Thus they were all stuck in the Airspace zone with no move. Later, RCC turn begins and Charlie allies with RCC. The Archons are still out of move at this point. In order to move, the turn needs to progress to RCC's next turn (i.e. after GK has moved) whereupon their move is refunded.
However, we also know that movement within a zone is not counted towards actual movement. Apparently, casting is still possible, since the archons could cast at Wanda during the first loss of the Arkenpliers (suggesting that casting takes no move, but not necessarily no time). ALso, since Wanda was flying, we'll assume she's in the same Airspace zone as the archons.
Why not zap Bogroll? Perhaps the tower (and the airspace, little a, surrounding it) are considered courtyard and you can't cast across zone boundaries. Perhaps there wasn't time to cast, since it all happened very quickly. Why not cast feather fall or an equivalent on Ansom? Perhaps they're not "that kind" of caster and don't have utility spells.
There are enough plausible reasons that fit with the facts presented thus far in the storyline that the archons doing nothing is not out of place IMO.
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2009-03-12, 03:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
-HaJo
FLW: Oh, no. We're being rescued. How embarrassing!
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2009-03-12, 03:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
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- EXTERMINATE!
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
NOOO!! BOGROLL!
So sad, yet that is how the Twoll wanted to go out!
As they say, "Pride goeth before a fall" in this case literally for Ansom.
Man, did Ansom get played or what!?!
It's not over yet, with Ansom dead, is Charlie still his ally?
If they are not allies anymore, it's Charlies turn next and he
has all those Archons floating around, and he wants Parson and all the
artifacts.
If they are still allies can Wanda uncwoak all those coalition forces augmenting their defenses even more?
Can those Archons make it into the dungeon? Technically one of the 3 zones
of Gobwin Knob is still standing so GK has not fallen yet.
When is Stanley getting back?
Stay tuned for the next exciting episode of Erfworld to find out!
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2009-03-12, 03:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Nope. Flying units can not be attacked by ground units without magic or archery. Ansom was safe from Sizemore (we haven't seen Sizemore throwing bolts of power around, yet) and his golems. And Smart Ansom would not be harmed by the collapse of the tunnels for the same reason.
I wouldn't mind seeing a little hopping back and forth, Thomas Covenant style.
Ansom's unit strength is unknown, it's true. But if there was any foreshadowing done by the authors, then he is at least a 9 without the Arcenpliers. Vinny asked Ansom if he was going to go croak Jillian with his bare hands, and Jillian is a 9. Bare hands would mean without the Arcenpliers. I'm not saying that this chat between friends has to have been a means to try to define Ansom's unit strength, but it could have been.
Close. Without Charlie joining the RCC then GK had a 3:2 chance of surviving the turn, not winning. Huge difference.
Agreed. In the same way that we didn't need to see the kids legs broken or the mate being pinned to the tree in the latest OotS.
The mice were being harassed by the cat. They held a meeting to see what to do about it. One mouse suggested that if they put a bell around the cat's neck, it would warn the mice when the cat was approaching. All the mice thought that this was a wonderful idea. But....who will bell the cat?
I don't think so. Jillian commands her small troop, but has expressed a dislike for being an heir, a dislike for royalty, and a dislike for the heavy responsibilities of leadership in general. She is happy being a mercenary warlord, and I don't see her rallying the remnants of the RCC under her.
Some magic systems use or at least pay homage to the rules of sympathetic magic. Like with like makes for a stronger magic. Bogroll was essentially Parson's twin brother in twoll form, if Erf magic pays any homage to the principals of sympathy then Bogroll was the candidate who could be given the strongest veil of looking like Parson.Last edited by BillyJimBoBob; 2009-03-12 at 04:09 PM.
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2009-03-12, 04:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
I believe it is possible for someone to be overbearingly arrogant, outraged, and not much given to cunning, yet still be smart enough not to stick his neck into a rival's guillotine on a dare. Ansom is hidebound, but he is also a successful Warlord. To me, that implies a base level of competence. If you tie a towel around your eyes, I'd expect he would still be able to see you. If you claim to be King Slately, I'd expect him to look you over once before following your commands. And if you ask to meet him, alone, at the highest point of your fortress to discuss your surrender, I'd expect him to at least think "Huh, how about I bring a few guards."
It certainly doesn't help that Ansom's acceptance of this monumentally unwise parley was handled almost entirely off-camera. We never did see exactly what Charlie told him, what he told his troops, or what he thought about the arrangement. If Ansom had a concrete reason to expect no treachery (or to believe he was protected against any such attempt), this might have been more palatable.
But as is, it sure seems like Ansom is gullible enough to fall for any bait you choose to offer him. I find that out of character, even for him.
-H
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2009-03-12, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2008
Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Ok, let's consider this. Ansom has a handful of archons with him, has the Arkenpliers (an immensely powerful artifact), and is, himself, one of the most powerful warlords in Erf (at least as far as we know). He is meeting with a single, low-level warlord (Parson's bonus was only 2, if you check). The force brought to that meeting could probably destroy most of GK's remaining forces, given the opportunity! Ansom lost, and died, not because he was stupid, not because he was just a plot device, but because he was the height of nobility and honor in Erfworld, because he was already badly injured, and because Parson got lucky. Plain and simple. It's not a ridiculously easy ploy, it's one that few people would have seen through (yourself included, I'd bet), especially given the foolamancy disguise and the fact that his forces were more than sufficient to destroy any unit Parson sent. If Parson had attacked Ansom, Parson would have been dead. If Parson had given another unit, such as Bogroll, a disguise, and had that unit attack Ansom, that unit would be...dead. Only the element of surprise, Ansom's wounded state, and the fact that no one expected a suicidal assassination attempt (a move that no "noble" would even consider).
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2009-03-12, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-03-12, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-03-12, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Yes, Ansom got snookered. It happened many times when leaders, even capable ones, fought conquerors who had a vaster store of knowledge to call upon or when they presumed that the conquerors would be more honorable.
Look at Lempira, at Atahualpa, and at Moctezuma II.
(For those unfamiliar with Lempira's story, from Wikipedia:
The Spanish, on instruction from their Governor, Francisco de Montejo, attacked him at Cerquin, near Gracias a Dios. Lempira, according to Herrera, retreated to a fortified hill top where he resisted the Spanish for many months. Finally, the Spanish lured him out to talk, and a concealed Spanish soldier with an arquebus shot and killed him. On seeing this, Herrera reports, the Lenca surrendered.Quo vadis?