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    Default [3.5] "King of Pong" Hulking Hurler/Dungeon Crasher/War Mind Mashup

    I could use some help with this build. I'm not sure it's all working yet.

    Most of this was inspired by Person_Man's "Flaming Homer" build and Heliomance's "Amusing grapple build". Links:

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...4&postcount=22
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5810773

    I was trying to work out how to combine Drunken Master with Hulking Hurler and Bloodstorm Blade to throw your enemies into one another, and eventually came to the conclusion that Drunken Master really doesn't add anything useful. I was toying around with combining the Knockback feat with Bloodstorm Blade when I rememberd War Mind's Sweeping Strike allows you to attack every opponent in two squares... well, in order to hit one opponent with one of his buddies, the two have to be adjacent at some point, yes? So the basic combo:

    1. Attack your prospective projectile with your first attack, Improved Grab gives you a free grapple.

    2. After you grab them, Hulking Hurler allows you to throw them as an improvised ranged weapon at another target, ideally another opponent but a convenient solid object will do.

    3. Aberration Blood + Inhuman Reach gives you 10' reach as medium, 15' as large, or 20' as huge. If you carry a one-handed reach weapon such as a kusari gama, this doubles your reach to 20'/30'/40'. Use Sweeping Strike to designate your target's square and whatever square your projectile needs to move through to hit him. Target gets hit once, projectile gets hit a 2nd time, using the Improvised Weapon Damage table from Complete Warrior as the base weapon damage (most projectiles should be 201+ lbs, so assume 5d6).

    4. Bloodstorm Blade's Thunderous Throw allows you to treat your thrown weapon attack as a melee attack, so you can now use Power Attack and Knockback. Knockback allows us to Bull Rush our projectile back into our target. Target takes no damage (unless you Bull Rush him into something else), but the projectile takes damage a 3rd time from Dungeon Crasher. (Adding Shock Trooper here for Directed Bull Rush might help back your target into something as well but isn't strictly necesary... although adding Domino Rush + Improved Trip for a free attack on each sounds too tasty to pass up.)

    5. The projectile returns to your grip and Lightning Ricochet allows you to catch him as a free action. Rinse & Repeat with your remaining iterative attacks.

    Race: Human (+ expansion = "Starbucks Tall"), Half-Giant (+ expansion = "Starbucks Grande"), or Goliath (+ expansion + Amphibious + Scaled Horror = "Starbucks Vente")

    1) Spirit Bear Barbarian 1. Improved Grab. Feat: Power Attack
    2) Psychic Warrior 1. Bonus Feat: Point Blank Shot. Expansion.
    3) Fighter 1. Feat: Weapon Focus, Bonus Feat: Improved Bull Rush
    4) Fighter 2. Dungeon Crasher 4d6
    5) Warblade 1. Punishing Stance, Disarming Strike, Mountain Hammer, Emerald Razor
    6) Bloodstorm Blade 1. Feat: Aberration Blood (flexible limbs)
    7) Hulking Hurler 1. Really Throw Anything.
    8) War Mind 1.
    9) War Mind 2. Feat: Inhuman Reach
    10) War Mind 3.
    11) War Mind 4.
    12) War Mind 5. Feat: Knockback
    13) Bloodstorm Blade 2.
    14) Bloodstorm Blade 3. Bonus Feat: Shock Trooper
    15) Bloodstorm Blade 4. Feat: Combat Expertise or Multigrab
    16) Fighter 3.
    17) Fighter 4. Bonus Feat: Improved Trip or EWP: Kusari-gama
    18) Fighter 5. Feat: Multigrab/Greater Multigrab
    19) Fighter 6. Dungeon Crasher 6d8
    20) LA, Bloodstorm Blade 5, Hulking Hurler 2, or Warblade 2

    Problems/Questions/Ruminations:

    1. Combo doesn't really kick in until ECL 15. Not really sure how effective this build would be before that.

    2. Targets must be within 30' (or 15', if you're not using a reach weapon). I did have Ranged Threat (from Dragon #350) in the build, but it only goes out to 15', Aberration Blood + Inhuman Reach costs fewer feats, and you can double your reach with a one-handed weapon such as a kusari-gama. Augmented Expansion increases your reach to 40'.

    3. Scaled Horror (from Savage Species) might be a better way to get Improved Grab than Spirit Bear Barbarian. You lose +1 BAB, but the Improved Grab from Scaled Horror works on opponents the same size or lower, which is one size larger than normal Improved Grab. You also pick up 1st level Ranger spells, which would include Arrow Mind, but I'm not really sure that helps unless you expand up to Huge. The best way to qualify is the Amphibious template from Stormwrack, which can be applied to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid with zero LA and only a -2 Dex penalty. This rules out Half-Giant (unless you go Tauric Centipede) but works smashingly well with Goliath.

    4. If you stick with Spirit Bear Barbarian, you might be able to combine this with the City Brawler variant (Dragon #347) to pick up Improved Unarmed Strike and TWF (Unarmed Strike only). Claws of the Beast/Fanged Ring/Monk's Belt would work just as well, I suppose.

    5. I'm still puzzled about which weapon to use for the first attack, although a reach weapon such as guisarme or spiked chain offers the best reach, while kusari-gama keeps a hand free for throwing. It looks like any melee weapon will work, and neither Improved Grab nor Really Throw Anything specify how many hands you need free to grab/throw. However, keeping both hands open to throw two-handed gives the best damage output from Power Attack.

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    Default Re: [3.5] "King of Pong" Hulking Hurler/Dungeon Crasher/War Mind Mashup

    Bravo for the idea Darrin. I think it's a real improvement over Flaming Homer.

    Although it obviously helps, I don't think that you need War Mind or Improved Grab to make this build work. All you need is Improved Grapple +
    Dungeoncrasher + Shock Trooper + Knockback + Bloodstorm Blade + Hulking Hurler.

    1) Make Grapple attempt against Enemy A. (This can be made more
    efficient with the Scorpion's Grasp feat from Sandstorm or Spirit Bear
    Barbarian, but it's not necessary).

    2) Assuming you succeed, you still have the rest of your attacks left (Although this was always true, it was made explicit in the Rules Compendium). Use one to throw Enemy A at another Enemy B (Hulking Hurler ability).

    3) Enemy B takes damage as if being attacked by a melee weapon
    (Bloodstorm Blade ability).

    4) You Bull Rush Enemy B (Knockback) and to the left or right (Shock
    Trooper). If Enemy B hits Enemy C, they're both Tripped (Shock Trooper).
    If he hits a wall or object, he takes ridiculous Dungeoncrasher damage.

    5) Enemy A flies back to you (Bloodstorm Blade). Although by RAW he's fine, a reasonable DM will inflict some damage on him. Otherwise, he's still technically Grappled. At the very least, you get to kill all of his friends by using him as a weapon.

    6) Repeat until you run out of attacks or enemies.

    Goliath (+1 LA) or Half Ogre (Large Size, +2 LA)
    Fighter 1 - Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush (bonus feat)
    Fighter 2 - Dungeoncrasher part I
    Fighter 3 - Improved Unarmed Strike
    Fighter 4 - Knockback (bonus feat)
    Fighter 5 - dead level
    Fighter 6 - Point Blank Shot, Dungeoncrasher part II
    Warblade 1 - Any Iron Heart for prereqs
    Bloodstorm Blade 1 - Throw Anything
    Bloodstorm Blade 2 - Thunderous Throw, Shock Trooper
    Bloodstorm Blade 3 - Weapon Focus (bonus feat)
    Bloodstorm Blade 4 - Lightning Ricochet
    Hulking Hurler 1 - Really Throw Anything, Improved Grapple
    Hulking Hurler 2 - Overburdened Heave (optional, but helpful)

    Although this is obviously weaker then your build (because it lacks Sweeping Strike, Expansion, and reach), I don't think it matters, since enemies will be constantly Bull Rushed and away from you and Tripped. It's also playable at every level, and the full combo kicks in a few levels earlier at ECL 13. After that, I'd head into Master Thrower to pick up Evasion, Two with One Blow, and Weak Spot.
    Last edited by Person_Man; 2009-03-17 at 09:52 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] "King of Pong" Hulking Hurler/Dungeon Crasher/War Mind Mashup

    Is there a way to make this work similarly without using ToB?
    -Dyllan

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    Default Re: [3.5] "King of Pong" Hulking Hurler/Dungeon Crasher/War Mind Mashup

    Mind if I post this on brilliantgameologists.com? You just made my day, by the way.

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    Default Re: [3.5] "King of Pong" Hulking Hurler/Dungeon Crasher/War Mind Mashup

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    1) Make Grapple attempt against Enemy A. (This can be made more
    efficient with the Scorpion's Grasp feat from Sandstorm or Spirit Bear
    Barbarian, but it's not necessary).
    I still prefer Improved Grab/Scorpion's Grasp, since then you get a normal attack/damage in first, then you grapple for free. Otherwise by RAW Enemy A goes through your whole attack progression without taking any damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    4) You Bull Rush Enemy B (Knockback) and to the left or right (Shock
    Trooper). If Enemy B hits Enemy C, they're both Tripped (Shock Trooper).
    If he hits a wall or object, he takes ridiculous Dungeoncrasher damage.
    I was going to ask why Flaming Homer didn't have Awesome Blow, but then I realized that knocked prone means Improved Trip won't work on your target. Still... if your target isn't obliging enough to stand next to another opponent/wall/object, moving him 10' could be very useful. Hmm. Can you bull rush a creature that is prone?

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    Default Re: [3.5] "King of Pong" Hulking Hurler/Dungeon Crasher/War Mind Mashup

    No reason you can't bull-rush a prone creature.

    Also, have you looked at the Fling Ally/Enemy feats from Races of Stone? They might be worthwhile too.

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    Default Re: [3.5] "King of Pong" Hulking Hurler/Dungeon Crasher/War Mind Mashup

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    Also, have you looked at the Fling Ally/Enemy feats from Races of Stone? They might be worthwhile too.
    I thought of that as well, but using either is a Standard Action. The King of Pong is much better off with the Hulking Hurler's Really Throw Anything, which let's you throw anything you can pick up as a light load.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    I still prefer Improved Grab/Scorpion's Grasp, since then you get a normal attack/damage in first, then you grapple for free. Otherwise by RAW Enemy A goes through your whole attack progression without taking any damage.
    Agreed. Come to think of it, you could also get Improved Grab with a level of Bear Warrior. That way you could get a +8 to Str, and use Lion Totem Barbarian to get Pounce instead. You'd need to burn a feat on Extra Rage though and whatever annoying pre-req Bear Warrior has though, and this build is very feat intensive as it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dyllan View Post
    Is there a way to make this work similarly without using ToB?
    No. Bloodstorm Blade is the only thing in 3.X D&D that lets you treat thrown weapons as melee attacks. So you can do at as Full BAB Class 5/Hulking Hurler 1, and just Grapple and throw your enemy (which would essentially just be an inefficient Bull Rush). But you couldn't apply Knockback, Dungeoncrasher, or Shock Trooper. If you can't use ToB material, I suggest you play Flaming Homer instead.

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    Default Re: [3.5] "King of Pong" Hulking Hurler/Dungeon Crasher/War Mind Mashup

    Quote Originally Posted by Dyllan View Post
    Is there a way to make this work similarly without using ToB?
    Person_Man's Flaming Homer doesn't require ToB and is probably a lot more effective through the early levels. (I provided a link to the build in my original post).

    Bloodstorm Blade is necessary for two things:

    1) Thunderous Throw. As a swift action, treat all your thrown weapon attacks as melee attacks. This allows Sweeping Strike (which only works with melee attacks) and Knockback (which needs Power Attack, and thus melee-only) to work.

    2) Lightning Ricochet. This returns any thrown weapon back to your hand as a free action.

    As Person_Man already pointed out, Sweeping Strike may not be necessary, and also creates something of a problem, since both the projectile and target need to be within normal melee reach, at which point you could argue "Why not just spiked chain them to death without bothering with all those ranged-attack feats?"

    For Knockback, there may be a couple ways to apply Power Attack to a ranged attack. Hulking Hurler, for example, has a Two-Handed Hurl Trick that does exactly that, although it requires a full-round action and is thus limited to one attack per turn. Peerless Archer and Hank's Bow also allow Power Shot, although by RAW this wouldn't meet the requirements for Knockback.

    As for Lightning Ricochet, since both the projectile and target would most likely still be within reach, you could just use your next attack to pick up another projectile and throw them at another target. Lightning Ricochet is there mostly for convenience and humiliation.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodenbandman View Post
    Mind if I post this on brilliantgameologists.com? You just made my day, by the way.
    I don't mind at all. You're welcome to repost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    Also, have you looked at the Fling Ally/Enemy feats from Races of Stone? They might be worthwhile too.
    I did, but they require standard actions to use, which kills a full attack progression. Also, it requires a grapple check to throw them and you run the risk of not being able to throw them far enough, while a Hulking Hurler requires no check at all. Enemies also don't take any damage from the throw or the landing.

    Another interesting tactic might be throwing your opponent into a square 50' in the air, and they then take falling damage. Again, Hulking Hurler can do this without the Fling Enemy feat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Agreed. Come to think of it, you could also get Improved Grab with a level of Bear Warrior. That way you could get a +8 to Str, and use Lion Totem Barbarian to get Pounce instead. You'd need to burn a feat on Extra Rage though and whatever annoying pre-req Bear Warrior has though, and this build is very feat intensive as it is.
    No annoying prereqs another than Power Attack, and there is enough room to slip in a level of Bear Warrior... but you're stuck with a black bear form, which is medium-sized, and I think you lose Powerful Build (ex) while in an alternate form. Yes, you can use Expansion from there, but that's two rounds to get going, and you can get completely horked with a calm emotions spell.

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    Default Re: [3.5] "King of Pong" Hulking Hurler/Dungeon Crasher/War Mind Mashup

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    No. Bloodstorm Blade is the only thing in 3.X D&D that lets you treat thrown weapons as melee attacks. So you can do at as Full BAB Class 5/Hulking Hurler 1, and just Grapple and throw your enemy (which would essentially just be an inefficient Bull Rush). But you couldn't apply Knockback, Dungeoncrasher, or Shock Trooper. If you can't use ToB material, I suggest you play Flaming Homer instead.
    Read Dungeoncrasher again. Nothing in there requires a melee bull-rush, just a bull-rush. So if you wanted, you could go Fighter 4 (+Dungeoncrasher)/Psion 16 and throw enemies around with telekinetic maneuver, or go Ftr 4/Caster 4/That Comp. Arcane PrC that focuses on telekinesis and still have it be fully effective.

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    Default Re: [3.5] "King of Pong" Hulking Hurler/Dungeon Crasher/War Mind Mashup

    I think my next BBEG just found his dragon. Now i just give him some good lower level caster support, and some decent gear (aka shineys for the pcs should they defeat him), and I believe that we have an encounter here.
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    Default Re: [3.5] "King of Pong" Hulking Hurler/Dungeon Crasher/War Mind Mashup

    Quote Originally Posted by Fax Celestis View Post
    Read Dungeoncrasher again. Nothing in there requires a melee bull-rush, just a bull-rush. So if you wanted, you could go Fighter 4 (+Dungeoncrasher)/Psion 16 and throw enemies around with telekinetic maneuver, or go Ftr 4/Caster 4/That Comp. Arcane PrC that focuses on telekinesis and still have it be fully effective.
    Really? Wow.

    Ghost Fighter 6/Master of the Unseen Hand 5 for the win. Full Attack ranged Bull Rush every turn, and whenever you smack an enemy into a wall or object they take retarded damage. Heck, you can even Bull Rush them strait up or down, since it doesn't have to be directed away from you.

    Does somebody have a catchy name?
    Last edited by Person_Man; 2009-03-17 at 02:21 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] "King of Pong" Hulking Hurler/Dungeon Crasher/War Mind Mashup

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Really? Wow.

    Ghost Fighter 6/Master of the Unseen Hand 5 for the win. Full Attack ranged Bull Rush every turn, and whenever you smack an enemy into a wall or object they take retarded damage.

    Does somebody have a catchy name?
    "Warren Spector."

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    Default Re: [3.5] "King of Pong" Hulking Hurler/Dungeon Crasher/War Mind Mashup

    I see a flaw in the original build: There's only 5 levels of War Mind in there, and nothing to increase manifester level further. So you can't manifest an augmented Expansion, since that's 7 PP, and thus requires an ML of 7. You could, in principle, fix this with Practiced Manifester, but I'm not sure if you have room for another feat. Or, of course, you could settle for a single size increase.

    On another note: I think there's also a way to get Improved Grab from a totemist soulmeld; I'll have to check when I get home. That may or may not end up being more efficient, especially if you can benefit from some other melds as well.

    And Hulking Hurler requires large size, correct? Does Powerful Build qualify one for that?
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    Default Re: [3.5] "King of Pong" Hulking Hurler/Dungeon Crasher/War Mind Mashup

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Really? Wow.

    Ghost Fighter 6/Master of the Unseen Hand 5 for the win. Full Attack ranged Bull Rush every turn, and whenever you smack an enemy into a wall or object they take retarded damage. Heck, you can even Bull Rush them strait up or down, since it doesn't have to be directed away from you.
    There's a couple feats in Dragon Magazine #304 that allow you to bull rush with thrown attacks. Windup (which is essentially power attack for thrown weapons, but unfortunately no Strength multipliers) and Rout. Rout applies to any thrown weapon 2 lbs or heavier, but it can't move a target more than 5' back.

    Build Stub:

    Dungeon Crasher 6/Hulking Hurler 1
    1) Feat: Power Attack, Bonus Feat: Improved Bull Rush
    2) Dungeon Crasher 4d6
    3) Feat: Windup
    4) Bonus Feat: Rout
    5) Dead Level
    6) Dungeon Crasher 6d8, Feat: Shock Trooper
    7) Really Throw Anything

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Does somebody have a catchy name?
    Before I settled on King of Pong, I did consider:

    Bloodchuck
    Chuck U. Farley
    Hurley
    Pinball Wizard
    Rick O'Shea

    For your Ghost... Bigby's Ghostly B!tchslap?

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    Default Re: [3.5] "King of Pong" Hulking Hurler/Dungeon Crasher/War Mind Mashup

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    I see a flaw in the original build: There's only 5 levels of War Mind in there, and nothing to increase manifester level further. So you can't manifest an augmented Expansion, since that's 7 PP, and thus requires an ML of 7. You could, in principle, fix this with Practiced Manifester, but I'm not sure if you have room for another feat. Or, of course, you could settle for a single size increase.
    Yes, I was aware of that, but Augmenting Expansion isn't required. Practiced Manifester can be taken at ECL 15, which is when Lightning Ricochet kicks in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    On another note: I think there's also a way to get Improved Grab from a totemist soulmeld; I'll have to check when I get home. That may or may not end up being more efficient, especially if you can benefit from some other melds as well.
    Didn't see Improved Grab in MoI... while I'd love to fit in some Incarnum, I didn't really have room to mix in anything with natural attacks. I did do some digging to find a soulmeld that could provide a reach weapon, but Dragon Tail doesn't threaten.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    And Hulking Hurler requires large size, correct? Does Powerful Build qualify one for that?
    This isn't entirely clear. Races of Stone says Powerful Build counts as Large for the purposes of feats such as Rock Hurling, but this exception isn't printed anywhere else. Sounds like a DM's call.

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    Default Re: [3.5] "King of Pong" Hulking Hurler/Dungeon Crasher/War Mind Mashup

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Didn't see Improved Grab in MoI... while I'd love to fit in some Incarnum, I didn't really have room to mix in anything with natural attacks. I did do some digging to find a soulmeld that could provide a reach weapon, but Dragon Tail doesn't threaten.
    You are correct. If you bind Totem Avatar, you can get Improved Grapple (Arms) or +1 size to natural weapon damage (shoulders). If you bind Girilallon Arms you can get a bonus to your Grapple checks. But no Improved Grab.

    But that gives me an idea:


    Rocket Claws of Smack!!!

    (Again, I suck with names. Ideas?)

    Totemist 4/Warblade 1/Bloodstorm Blade 2/Kensai 2/Warmind 10/Warshaper 1

    OR

    Psychic Warrior 4/Warblade 1/Bloodstorm Blade 2/Kensai 2/Psy Warrior 5+


    Required elements:

    Warblade gives you the Iron Heart strike and stance needed for entry into Bloodstorm Blade. It also gives you Balance (pre-req), Concentration (pre-req), and Tumble (just plain useful) as class Skills.

    Bloodstorm Blade gives you Throw Anything, Returning, and lets you treat ranged attacks as melee attacks.

    Kensai lets you enchant your natural weapons. I choose to put Throwing on my claws. It also gives you Power Surge, for a nifty +8 Str whenever you can make a Concentration check.

    Warmind or Psychic Warrior, for Claws of the Beast, Claws of the Vampire, and Expansion (+2 size)

    Now you can throw your claw attacks. They deal excellent scaled damage, going up to 12d6 or higher, depending on your manifester level and size.


    Optional:

    Midnight Augmentation feat: Can invest essentia to lower the augmentation cost of 1 power, presumably Claws of the Beast. Note that essentia is pretty limited: 1 point per Totemist level, +1 if you're an essentia race, and +1 or +2 for each essentia feat you take.

    Practiced Maifester for +4 to your manifester level.

    Warshaper: +1 size on natural attacks. Warshaper 2 will give you +4 Str and Con. Warshaper 3 will give you +5 reach. Note that Warshaper has some funky requirements though - you need to be a Changeling or be using Metamorphosis or Wildshape or something similar to get its benefits.

    Totem Avatar with a (shoulders) bind for +1 size on natural attacks. Require the Open Lesser Chakra feat or 9 levels of Totemist.

    Improved Natural Attack for +1 size on your claws.

    Metamorphosis: Psionic Polymorph. Why bother with Expansion, when you can just turn into a Colossal dragon? You need Expanded Knowledge and and the ability to manifest 4th level powers to get it though. Widely considered broken. (Not that this build is a modest one).

    Battlefield Control: Improved Trip, Knockback, Shock Trooper, Improved Grapple/Grab, etc.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Person_Man; 2009-03-19 at 01:37 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] "King of Pong" Hulking Hurler/Dungeon Crasher/War Mind Mashup

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Warmind or Psychic Warrior, for Claws of the Beast, Claws of the Vampire, and Expansion (+2 size)

    Now you can throw your claw attacks. They deal excellent scaled damage, going up to 12d6 or higher, depending on your manifester level and size.
    I've never actually used Psionics all that much, so I'm not sure how Claws of the Beast work. Does the claw damage apply to all your claw attacks, or only the claws given by Claws of the Beast?

    For example, if I have Double Chakra and bind Girallon Arms and Lamia belt to my totem chakra, I have 6 claw attacks (1 primary and 5 secondary attacks). If I then manifest Claws of the Beast, do I get 8 claw attacks, or do two of my existing claw attacks just get better damage?

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    Default Re: [3.5] "King of Pong" Hulking Hurler/Dungeon Crasher/War Mind Mashup

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    I've never actually used Psionics all that much, so I'm not sure how Claws of the Beast work. Does the claw damage apply to all your claw attacks, or only the claws given by Claws of the Beast?

    For example, if I have Double Chakra and bind Girallon Arms and Lamia belt to my totem chakra, I have 6 claw attacks (1 primary and 5 secondary attacks). If I then manifest Claws of the Beast, do I get 8 claw attacks, or do two of my existing claw attacks just get better damage?
    As far as I know, when you use Claws of the Beast, you get two claw attacks. And that's it. The power states: "You can make an attack with one claw or a full attack with two claws at your normal attack bonus, replacing your normal attack routine. You take no penalties for two-weapon fighting, and neither attack is a secondary attack. If your base attack bonus is +6 or higher, you do not gain any additional attacks—you simply have two claw attacks at your normal attack bonus."

    A DM could let you use other secondary attacks from Girallon Arms or Bite of the Wolf or Rapidstrike or whatever to gain more attacks, but it's questionable. Even then, Claws of the Beast grow on your hands, so I'm not sure it would add 2 claw attacks to a Girallon Arms + Lamia Belt combo. I'd have to re-read those soulmelds.

    So your best bet for adding attacks to a Claws of the Beast build is to use Sweeping Strike and attacks of opportunity (Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, Goad, Knock-Down, etc), which synergizes with the extra reach you get from Expansion (which you need to improve your claw damage).

    However, Claws of the Vampire specifically applies to pre-existing claws. So you could use Girallon Arms/Lamia belt with Psychic Warrior 7 or Warmind 6 mixed in and get comparable results - more attacks, but less damage per attack. In fact, I think a DM might actually allow such a build in his game, because six 4d6ish claw attacks seem a lot less broken then two 12d6 attacks.

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    Default Re: [3.5] "King of Pong" Hulking Hurler/Dungeon Crasher/War Mind Mashup

    If you can spare the feats, the absolute best way to get Improved Grab is with Illithid Heritage and Illithid Grapple from Complete Psionic.

    "I will pick you up and throw you at people" < "I will pick you up with my tongue and throw you at people."

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    Default Re: [3.5] "King of Pong" Hulking Hurler/Dungeon Crasher/War Mind Mashup

    The only problems I see are as follows:

    1) Power point pool is cripplingly small. You may get expansion 1/day. MAYBE 2 times. Certainly no augmentation.

    2) With expansion, and scaled horror, you can get large. Without the expansion, you're limited to medium creatures.
    With expansion and spirit bear, you have medium and smaller. Without the expansion, you're limited to small creatures.

    So,. if you can squeeze more power points into the build, it would greatly help. If you can squeeze several more psywar levels and practiced manifester, you may even be able to grow 2 sizes, and increase that list up to huge creatures, which would see some real effectiveness.

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    Default Re: [3.5] "King of Pong" Hulking Hurler/Dungeon Crasher/War Mind Mashup

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    The only problems I see are as follows:

    1) Power point pool is cripplingly small. You may get expansion 1/day. MAYBE 2 times. Certainly no augmentation.

    2) With expansion, and scaled horror, you can get large. Without the expansion, you're limited to medium creatures.
    With expansion and spirit bear, you have medium and smaller. Without the expansion, you're limited to small creatures.

    So, if you can squeeze more power points into the build, it would greatly help. If you can squeeze several more psywar levels and practiced manifester, you may even be able to grow 2 sizes, and increase that list up to huge creatures, which would see some real effectiveness.
    Augmented Expansion: 9 PP (2 size increases, 10 minute/level)
    Augmented Claws of the Beast: 19 PP (maximum, 1 hour/level)
    Claws of the Vampire: 5 pp (1 round/level)

    Let's assume you need to use Claws of the Beast once, Augmented Expansion twice, and Claws of the Vampire 4 times. That's a total of 57 PP.

    A 6th level War Mind has 28 PP. Bonus Power Points are based on your Manifester Level, not your class level. So if you take Practiced Manifester and have a Wis of 22 (not difficult to get with a Wis boosting item) you can 30 bonus PP, and you're set. Plus you can squeeze out a few more points from a psionic face and/or feats.

    If you have MAD concerns, then yeah, you really need to take 10 levels of War Mind or Psychic Warrior. Or you can use a Wand to get Polymorph or Giant Size (Comp Arcane), bypassing the need for Expansion. You could theoretically work in Abolisher 1/Master of Many Forms X instead of War Mind, taking care of your size problem and Improved Grab, but I consider MoMF cheating.

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    Default Re: [3.5] "King of Pong" Hulking Hurler/Dungeon Crasher/War Mind Mashup

    I think you're lowballing your PP needs a bit, and highballing your stat assumptions.

    This is, at its core, a combat class. Physical stats are at a premium.
    In a 32 point build, the 16 Wisdom that you'd need to have a 22 Wis after a +6 wis necklace is 10 points. Almost a third of your stat commitment.

    It can be lowered, as the build is geared towards being more psionic at higher levels. By assigning a 14 in the stat, and placing level 4 and 8 boosts in wisdom, you can have a 16 by level 8, with only 6 points expended.

    Now, stats would likely, at level 1, look something like:
    Str: 16, Dex: 14, Con: 16, Int: 8, Wis: 14, Cha: 8
    (min/maxed) or
    Str: 16, Dex: 14, Con: 14, Int: 10, Wis: 14, Cha: 10
    (more balanced)

    Level 4 and 8 statboosts are committed to wisdom, and 36k gold is committed to wis items. This means that if you boost str at 12 and 16, and get a +6 item, your best non-wishes str is 24 (not counting racial mods). In that case, con would be limited to 20, as well. Playable, but your chances to hit will suffer a bit here and there.

    But I think the PP requirements may be a bit higher.

    Also, Wands of poly and giant size? Poly, maybe, if you can UMD something off sorc/wiz list. However, Giant size is a level 9 spell, which cannot be put in a wand.
    Last edited by Talic; 2009-03-21 at 04:02 AM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] "King of Pong" Hulking Hurler/Dungeon Crasher/War Mind Mashup

    Quote Originally Posted by Talic View Post
    Also, Wands of poly and giant size? Poly, maybe, if you can UMD something off sorc/wiz list. However, Giant size is a level 9 spell, which cannot be put in a wand.
    Casting a permanent Polymorph Any Object into an Ogre (Large) or Glabrezu, Tendriculos, or Treant (Huge) is extremely cheap: 1200 GP. Yeah, it might get dispelled, but then you can fall back on Expansion.

    A continuous Enlarge Person item isn't all that expensive, either: 4000 GP. Although that won't stack with Expansion.

    I was only thinking about Expansion in terms of "what's the easiest way to get Large if Powerful Build doesn't work for Hulking Hurler?" Going up to Huge wouldn't be necessary unless enemies are smart enough to stay out of (Large-sized) reach.

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