Erfworld 150 - tBfGK - 137

[TheJustWiseSage]

I feel everyone may have missed something here, according to erf0022 the pliers are linked to FATE magic.

Surely, then by picking up the pliers, Scarlett (Red Head) is now FATED to survive?

It's not fire resistence that's defending her, it's fate and the power of Fate is greater.

*edit: Just a point of note from Klog 2 both croakamancy and predictomancy are of the FATE line. So Wanda is definately linked to fate by her Croakomancy, doubly so if she's the missing predictomancer.

[Matuse]

Looks like the superfluous elves are going to be needed after all!

[MickJay]

Not to nitpick, but don't you mean "Zombie-shooting Volcano"? ;)

Unless it was meant as "the volcano is shooting zombies"

The city can probably be still captured, as a site, at least, or perhaps a 0-level city or completely empty city site, depending on what categories are being used. It could have simply become a "ruin", as well.

[fendrin]

Let me clarify. I meant zero sum regarding my personal interpretation of Red's psychological reaction to the story thus far based purely on the artwork. Not a blanket statement on story events that haven't transpired yet, or an assessment of casualty figures that haven't been revealed to us.

To be clear, a zero sum game is one in which the 'points' each side has always sum to the same total. For instance, poker. Each player starts with a certain value of chips, and each transaction of chips is zero-sum; that is, any time somebody gets additional chips, other players (in aggregate) lose the exact same amount.

War is not a zero-sum 'game'.

Unless you mean the card game. That is a zero-sum game.

[One Skunk Todd]

Red's expression is clearly one of sheer despair, not fear. Whether she physically survives according to the author's future intentions is likely irrelevent. The person she was inside is probably dead.

I agree. If the pliers are granting her immunity from the volcano I wouldn't be at all surprised if she simply let go of them to make the pain stop.

[sabremeister]

I feel everyone may have missed something here, according to erf0022 the pliers are linked to FATE magic.

I don't read it like that. I read Ansom's statement that, "Fate magic is powerless in my case; I cannot unlock their secrets. I know of no-one who can," to be saying that all Tools are controlled by Fate magic, and if you are Fated to attune to an Artefact, you will - otherwise, nothing will let you Attune. And as Artefacts were left by the Titans, they have a much higher enchantment power than any Erfly caster who might be able to divine who any Tool is Fated to Attune to (hence, the divination is blocked).

In other words, Ansom is basically saying, "I have the Pliers, I am not Attuned to them. My best Predictamancers, Findamancers and Thinkamancers cannot find out who will Attune to them."

I think.

[chefsotero]

And on panel 4 is that Tarfu or just an randon elf?

That would make 3 warlords left on the coalition (Tarfu, Scarllet and Vinnie) am I missing someone?

[SauroGrenom]

I haven't commented often, but with how exciting the last few updates have been, I want to say how much I'm enjoying the comic.

I love how each comic leaves a bit open as to how the loose ends may or may not be tied up. That keeps me coming back for more.

Before we got to this update I was already thinking about what Stanley will do now that he's a barbarian, or what will happen to Parson and the casters, or how Charley's going to deal with the situation.

The first panel on this update opens another question. I look at that and I wonder if the redheaded leader is somehow immune to the volcano, or if she's one of the screaming fireballs in the next panels? It kind of makes sense for her to be immune, since the pliers have always seamed to be effective against uncroaked and the volcano is uncroaked...

Anyway very exciting. Keep it coming please.

[fendrin]

And on panel 4 is that Tarfu or just an randon elf?

That would make 3 warlords left on the coalition (Tarfu, Scarllet and Vinnie) am I missing someone?

Jillian, who also has the distinction of being an Overlord.

[MReav]

Vinnie and Jillian broke from the coalition to hunt down Stanley. They are currently not with the RCC. They can rejoin (assuming there is a coalition to join after this debacle).

[chefsotero]

So that leaves us with Tarfu (possibly) and Scarlet (that may or may not be alive) and any minor warlord that may still be around the back-up troops/siege

That raises some questions:

W/out no warlord the remaining troops would auto-engage Jillian and Vinnie when/if they come back?

What happens with the capitol-less troops from the RCC if they don't have an warlord from their faction? Go Barbarian? Disband? Fall under some other alied faction?

Besides the burning questions of were the boop is Parson and what will happen to generic-sexy-sonja Scarllet?

[fendrin]

Vinnie and Jillian broke from the coalition to hunt down Stanley. They are currently not with the RCC. They can rejoin (assuming there is a coalition to join after this debacle).

Well yes, I was thinking of warlords on the coalition's side in the fight.

Clearly, Scarlett the Red is the ranking warlord in the coalition currently. Assuming she survived this page (I am doubtful, though I also don't think she is one of the flaming units we see on this page).

We have no confirmation of any other warlords, but unless there are special rules for coalitions (probable, really), any hex with units from different sides would need one warlord per side. Considering the number of hexes the column used to occupy, it is likely that either are special rules for coalition members not attacking each other or there are a lot of unknown warlords in the coalition ranks.

[SeraphRainy]

Hmmmm welllll I dont see how scarlet could survive the volcano because even with maaaaasssssive def/res/imunity she'll at least be burried under molten lava or ash. Buuuut there is no reason why the plyers cant live and if they are burried under the rock that is ok they can still be recovered.

I personaly am voting for the GK to regroup and since sizemore is still alive it would be reeeal convinient for him to dig em up.

What do yall think?

[Nargrakhan]

Remember, from the perspective of Erfworlders, Parson has just done his duty. Stanley was hated because he overturned the status quo (he started as a simple footsoldier) and conquered other kingdoms (ruled by nobles). Parson was brought in to defend GK and did so successfully on behalf of Stanley. Even if the way that he denied them victory was unconventional, his reason (duty) fits their worldview.

Hmmm... I guess you're right. I suppose on Erfworld, the Nuremberg Defense is a valid argument, given you can't defy Duty.

[Kreistor]

Hmmm... I guess you're right. I suppose on Erfworld, the Nuremberg Defense is a valid argument, given you can't defy Duty.

If that were the entire story, then Stanley must not have involvement in his own ascension to ruler status. If there was absolutely no possibility of free will, he could not have been behind the gobwin betrayal of Saline. I doubt there are many that truly believe that he wasn't behind it.

[Opal Tide]

RE: Autoengage of remaining RCC units

I would guess that most armies have a heavy does of very low level commanders (I think Webinar's girlfriend was a 2). No reason why there wouldn't be more like here serving as the equivalent of sergeants or 1st lieutenants in armies, granting the warlord better tactical control over a battle where thinkamancy was lacking.

So no, I don't think the RCC will rip itself apart due to the rules. They may rip each other apart with recriminations, but I think most will be in shock for a while and have no heart to fight and kill those whom they have already traveled and bled with.

Of course the stories they bring back tot heir respective capitals will likely be shaded to cast their side in the best light and lay the blame on the other factions. I think we have not even seen the beginning of the fracturing of the existing status quo that Parson has created. Heads must roll for this disaster and since many of the on the scene leadership is croaked, those heads may be demanded from other factions.

Should be fun to see, I hope we get to see the shakeout of this encounter on Erfworld as a whole. <<crosses fingers>>

[SteveMB]

RE: Autoengage of remaining RCC units

I would guess that most armies have a heavy does of very low level commanders (I think Webinar's girlfriend was a 2). No reason why there wouldn't be more like here serving as the equivalent of sergeants or 1st lieutenants in armies, granting the warlord better tactical control over a battle where thinkamancy was lacking.

Way back when Ansom first presented the attack plan, he addressed a fairly large audience as "courageous and competent warlords" (emphasis added).

[Kreistor]

No reason why there wouldn't be more like here serving as the equivalent of sergeants or 1st lieutenants in armies, granting the warlord better tactical control over a battle where thinkamancy was lacking.

Upkeep. A darned good reason to limit commanders. We don't know the rules for how much each costs initially and per turn, nor how much it costs to raise a soldier to commander state. Parson runs 1000 schmuckers a turn, and after summoning him, Stanley only had 150000 left in the bank. Parson alone burned nearly 0.67% of the bank per turn.

So the answer to your question is cash. Raise yoour upkeep too high, and you can't replace losses. Let's say you bring in 2000 per day. If your upkeep is 1900 and it costs 2000 to buy a new unit, you can only afford a loss rate of 1/20 days. The higher the upkeep, the fewer losses you can sustain. Simple math, really.

[Opal Tide]

Re: Upkeep

The same could be said about "commanders" in the real world. they cost money to train initially as well as continuing eduction but are worth more than their weight in gold when it comes to coordinating and leading troops. We obviously don't have an army containing just commissioned officers and non-coms, but the right ratio of enlisted to officers makes effective fighting units.

Keep in mind we don't have a great grasp on how upkeep works in Erfworld, we just have Parson as an example. For all we know Ansom had the same upkeep as Webinar (maybe a little higher if he had nicer accommodations and food). We are told warlords take longer to produce, but that is also the case with officers in the real world. Given that factions have multiple cities (Stanley had 12 at one point) one could be speced to produce warlords (the faction's West Point) while others concentrate on units

My intuition is that there should not be a huge difference between warlords and regular units upkeep apart from field amenities. I don't think we can make any blanket assumptions about commander costs/upkeep until given more information. Besides, slightly higher upkeep costs could be more than made up for with tactical flexibility and leadership bonuses they provide.

It would come down to the preferred strategy of a faction. We saw Vinnie's faction prefer lots of warlords and lots of cheaper, expendable units while Stanley seems to have preferred one central commander leading forces as one unit instead of separate units acting together as part of an overall plan (maybe concern over somebody pulling a Stanley on him?)

Edited to add:

Also keep in mind these lower level commanders will not have Warlord status like Parson, but low level leaders that may not progress very high in level. Think the difference between paying a 1st lieutenant and a general or joint chief of staff. We simply don't have enough information about the economics of Erfworld (maybe 1,000 shmuckers isn't a lot for a faction with multiple cities) or preferred war strategies. Sufficed to say, I don't think a lack of commanders will cause an auto-attack bloodbath with the remaining RCC troops.

[caranha]

I personaly am voting for the GK to regroup and since sizemore is still alive it would be reeeal convinient for him to dig em up.

What do yall think?

I think that Book 1 of Erfword is done. Battle ended. Game over. Good game. We will probably have two or three more strips depicting the aftermath for each side (wild guess: 1 for vinne+Jillian, one for stanley + parson, and a final one for Charlie + hook for book 2), and then the credits will start to roll.

By the way, I loved the last 10 strips or so.

[spite48]

I think that Book 1 of Erfword is done. Battle ended. Game over. Good game. We will probably have two or three more strips depicting the aftermath for each side (wild guess: 1 for vinne+Jillian, one for stanley + parson, and a final one for Charlie + hook for book 2), and then the credits will start to roll.

By the way, I loved the last 10 strips or so.

Yeah, we know that the battle for gobwin knob is over, and that was the topic of book 1. The war may continue I suppose, but the battle is over.

[SomeUnregPunk]

I read this entire thread...took ten minutes... and afew ideas have popped up in my head.

Stanley is currently being chased by Vinnie and his vampire group/army(?) with Ansom's girlfriend(?). He is running because even with his dragons he can not face them without a true warlord running the battle..... he just not smart enough to run battles for more than a small skirmish.

Stanley is trying to head back to his base to attempt to recoup and regather his forces. Before he reaches his base he will find that his base is now an volcano. Whether or not he can see it is uncroaked or not is debatable.

He has no base to recoup. where does he go? He might be pissed and angry but I believe he is going to get really depressed first.

Vinnie and his gang might actually stop chasing Stanley and try to find surviors and(or) Ansom which might give Stanley the opportunity to turn around and head back to his original destination. Or they may not and Stanley will be running for a long time.

Parson sounds like Charlie to me. They both tend to think "outside of the box" while all the others who were born here tend to be stuck in their class or form.

The redhead may be fire resistant after all she is wearing red armor.

[User Name]

The redhead may be fire resistant after all she is wearing red armor.

Great logic.

[BLANDCorporatio]

Great logic.

Yep, it's called sympathetic magic. But I don't think it works here, surely there were other units wearing red armor that are now, alas, toasty.

[Sarissofoi]

Or meyby they already escaped from city or if they cant they sit in some corner and plays with red azbest cards.

[BillyJimBoBob]

4) Unanswered questions that I consider relevant so far:
a) Where did Parson go and why could he use the portal?
b) Does this effectively end RCC's turn?
c) Why does Wanda follow Stanley of her own free will? Wouldn't loyalty and duty endear her to FAQ? which brings us to:
d) What really happened to FAQ?
Speculation may abound but it is just that, speculation. I prefer to wait for it to play out rather than be like the annoying people in the theater who loudly proclaim their assumed predictions of the unfolding drama

Ah, but this forum is for just such loud proclamations. If you don't care to participate, I refer you to the comic, and you can confine your reading to that portion of the site.
a) Where did Parson go and why could he use the portal?
- Unknown where, and why is also unknown but promised to be forthcoming.
b) Does this effectively end RCC's turn?
- This has been inconsistently shown. For the RCC Ansom has been calling for the end of turns, even though he is not the leader of his side. For GK it has always been Stanley who controlled the ending of the turn, which has been of some concern to Parson. With Ansom dead, it's anyone's guess as to who can end turn for the RCC.
c) Why does Wanda follow Stanley of her own free will? Wouldn't loyalty and duty endear her to FAQ?
- FAQ is no longer a side, and so no loyalty should convey. And the same question applies to Sizemore and Jack, since Wanda and they are all from FAQ. As to why they follow Stanley, and apparently with a high degree of loyalty and initiative, this is a mystery. Some say it's the game mechanics of Loyalty and Duty which compel this, but Sizemore told Parson that a captured unit has a low Loyalty, which hasn't been demonstrated as both Wanda and Jack were given opportunities to turn, in both cases with flying units present which could have taken them away, and both remained loyal to Stanley even in the face of clear dangers for remaining with the GK side.
d) What really happened to FAQ?
- Unknown, although Jillian thinks that Stanley attacked it, and Stanley knows where it was located. I suspect that the details will be more complex than "Stanley destroyed FAQ", but anyone's guess is as valid.

Thank you very much, Rob and Jaime - I love this comic and may your detractors continue to rot in their parents' dank basements.

Reading a story with a critical eye to the details doesn't make someone a "detractor", any more than accepting every inconsistency or reversal without question or comment makes someone a "fanboy."

If that were the entire story, then Stanley must not have involvement in his own ascension to ruler status. If there was absolutely no possibility of free will, he could not have been behind the gobwin betrayal of Saline. I doubt there are many that truly believe that he wasn't behind it.

I believe that Stanley wasn't behind it. Not only was he bound by Duty and Loyalty to Saline IV, but "can't plot against" was explicitly stated as a function of those mechanics. Also, Stanley is such a poor strategist that his capability to put together a coup which works is in grave doubt. Finally, I don't think he was involved for the same reason I don't think he was the one who conquered FAQ, it seems to pat and simple, and I expect more complexity in the details.

What I remember most is taking a trip to the national park [near Mt St. Helens] a few months later. It looked like God had run his comb through the forest; far enough away the trees survived the blast intact, but laid over on their sides in perfect alignment. It was a horribly frightening sight for me.

I was visiting family in Great Falls, MT when the mountain blew. We had 1/8 inch of volcanic ash on the cars, about 750 miles away.

[Oslecamo]

Yep, it's called sympathetic magic. But I don't think it works here, surely there were other units wearing red armor that are now, alas, toasty.

Since she's clearly a higer level unit, she would probably be more resistant to fire than the fire-resistant mooks.

[sabremeister]

4) Unanswered questions that I consider relevant so far:
a) Where did Parson go and why could he use the portal?
b) Does this effectively end RCC's turn?
c) Why does Wanda follow Stanley of her own free will? Wouldn't loyalty and duty endear her to FAQ? which brings us to:
d) What really happened to FAQ?
Speculation may abound but it is just that, speculation. I prefer to wait for it to play out rather than be like the annoying people in the theater who loudly proclaim their assumed predictions of the unfolding drama

Ah, but this forum is for just such loud proclamations. If you don't care to participate, I refer you to the comic, and you can confine your reading to that portion of the site.
a) Where did Parson go and why could he use the portal?
- Unknown where, and why is also unknown but promised to be forthcoming.
b) Does this effectively end RCC's turn?
- This has been inconsistently shown. For the RCC Ansom has been calling for the end of turns, even though he is not the leader of his side. For GK it has always been Stanley who controlled the ending of the turn, which has been of some concern to Parson. With Ansom dead, it's anyone's guess as to who can end turn for the RCC.

I'm guessing Scarlet now has that authority, as she's the senior surviving Warlord of a multi-nation alliance. How much longer she survives is, however, an entirely new speculation. So until she croaks, she's in charge.

c) Why does Wanda follow Stanley of her own free will? Wouldn't loyalty and duty endear her to FAQ?
- FAQ is no longer a side, and so no loyalty should convey. And the same question applies to Sizemore and Jack, since Wanda and they are all from FAQ. As to why they follow Stanley, and apparently with a high degree of loyalty and initiative, this is a mystery. Some say it's the game mechanics of Loyalty and Duty which compel this, but Sizemore told Parson that a captured unit has a low Loyalty, which hasn't been demonstrated as both Wanda and Jack were given opportunities to turn, in both cases with flying units present which could have taken them away, and both remained loyal to Stanley even in the face of clear dangers for remaining with the GK side.

I don't think it's quite like that. I don't think Jillian has Loyalty to anywhere or anyone since FAQ fell - she is, after all, the next in line to FAQ's throne, and FAQ's chief warlord. So, as her city and liege have gone, she's in charge, and doesn't need Loyalty. From text clues, I think Wanda may have been popped in a city under FAQ's control (but not the capital), and so might have lower Loyalty. Jack ... don't know. As units disband when cities fall, he would have to have been captured before FAQ fell, meaning if he turned, he would retain his high Loyalty to FAQ. Maybe Stanley had Maggie or Misty cast a spell to make him think FAQ had already fallen, so he could turn of his own free will and get a high Loyalty to Stanley.
Sizemore, BTW, was popped in GK.

d) What really happened to FAQ?
- Unknown, although Jillian thinks that Stanley attacked it, and Stanley knows where it was located. I suspect that the details will be more complex than "Stanley destroyed FAQ", but anyone's guess is as valid.

A lot of circumstantial evidence points to it being Stanley responsible for the fall of FAQ - possibly before Saline IV died, as it does indeed show evidence of being a rather more complex plan than Stanley has been shown to be capable of, and so may have been orchestrated from back home. Or even, the Gobwin coup that ended Saline occurred while Stanley was attacking FAQ.

If that were the entire story, then Stanley must not have involvement in his own ascension to ruler status. If there was absolutely no possibility of free will, he could not have been behind the gobwin betrayal of Saline. I doubt there are many that truly believe that he wasn't behind it.

I believe that Stanley wasn't behind it. Not only was he bound by Duty and Loyalty to Saline IV, but "can't plot against" was explicitly stated as a function of those mechanics. Also, Stanley is such a poor strategist that his capability to put together a coup which works is in grave doubt. Finally, I don't think he was involved for the same reason I don't think he was the one who conquered FAQ, it seems to pat and simple, and I expect more complexity in the details.

Maybe the Arkentools allow a greater degree of freedom about things like Duty and Loyalty? Charlie, the only other person we've seen who's attuned to their artefact, is not exactly known for consistency of support and assistance supposedly guaranteed by contract. Stanley found the Arkenhammer, attuned to it, and was granted command of dwagons. Saline IV recognised this as a useful ability, and promoted him to warlord, and eventually to chief overlord and heir. With loads of dwagons in their army, and more warlords than just Stanley, GK conquered lots of cities. However, power-mad and convinced of his own superiority, and strangely un-hindered by Duty and Loyalty now that he's heir apparent and in possession of an attuned Arkentool, Stanley arranges with the Gobwins to stage a coup while he's in the field, and acts surprised upon return to find Saline IV croaked. He's got lots of dwagons with him, so it's no trouble to make it appear as though the treacherous Gobwins have been massacred, then assume the throne of GK. And then, since he's thick as some of the stuff we've seen Sizemore dealing with, he goes and loses all the other cities he had control of, in a quest to find and control the other Arkentools.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Sizemore, BTW, was popped in GK.

Was he? I don't recall seeing that specified, and someone, in some thread a while back, posted a picture of FAQ that had a guy who looked exactly like Sizemore snoozing against a tree. And it would explain Sizemore's peaceful nature in a world made for war, since FAQ was also a peaceful place which used distraction and veils to avoid discovery by the more warlike sides.

Maybe the Arkentools allow a greater degree of freedom about things like Duty and Loyalty? Charlie, the only other person we've seen who's attuned to their artefact, is not exactly known for consistency of support and assistance supposedly guaranteed by contract. Stanley found the Arkenhammer, attuned to it, and was granted command of dwagons. Saline IV recognised this as a useful ability, and promoted him to warlord, and eventually to chief overlord and heir. With loads of dwagons in their army, and more warlords than just Stanley, GK conquered lots of cities. However, power-mad and convinced of his own superiority, and strangely un-hindered by Duty and Loyalty now that he's heir apparent and in possession of an attuned Arkentool, Stanley arranges with the Gobwins to stage a coup while he's in the field, and acts surprised upon return to find Saline IV croaked. He's got lots of dwagons with him, so it's no trouble to make it appear as though the treacherous Gobwins have been massacred, then assume the throne of GK. And then, since he's thick as some of the stuff we've seen Sizemore dealing with, he goes and loses all the other cities he had control of, in a quest to find and control the other Arkentools.

This is an internally consistent theory which does cover all of the questions raised. I wouldn't place "Archentool trumps Loyalty/Duty" under the "too pat and simple" qualifier I used above. And I don't have a theory of my own. It just seems to me that with so many people (in the strip, who cares about forums speculation) convinced that Stanley rose to power through regicide, that this won't be the case. Same with FAQ. We'll see as things progress, I hope.

[fendrin]

Maybe the Arkentools allow a greater degree of freedom about things like Duty and Loyalty? Charlie, the only other person we've seen who's attuned to their artefact, is not exactly known for consistency of support and assistance supposedly guaranteed by contract.

On the contrary, all the evidence points to Charlie following his contracts to the letter. He does not, however, do anything not specified in the contract unless it is in his own best interest.

My position is that Stanley isn't bright enough to have arranged for the coup. If he could disregard the loyalty issues, I would expect him to go for a frontal assault. Heck, even if he was that devious, it's just not his style.

Was he? I don't recall seeing that specified, and someone, in some thread a while back, posted a picture of FAQ that had a guy who looked exactly like Sizemore snoozing against a tree.

"I popped under the reign of King Saline IV."
This is not Sizemore.