4e- Cosmic Magic source for Sorcerers? (Arcane Power Preview)

[Asbestos]

Over at WotC they put up another preview article for Arcane Power, it can be seen here.

Apparently they are sticking with the 'str and dex are secondary stats for sorcerers' bit introduced in the PHB2. But, what stands out to me here is that... I don't get it!

What is this 'cosmic magic', is it different than the sort of magic that Star Pact warlocks wield? Is this whole 'phases' mechanic interesting or is it simply needlessly complex?

[Kletian999]

Warlock Star Pact the "Stars" are actually far Realm Aliens, and the effects are mainly illusions and light- it also had some ties to Fate (Horoscopes). Cosmic Magic is aimed toward the real astrometic bodies, it's physics magic: Gravity, orbits, meteors, etc. It's less random than Chaos but more varied than Draconic, I think it'll fit in well.

[NPCMook]

I don't understand the phase thing...

[Oracle_Hunter]

I don't understand the phase thing...

Basically after every rest, the Sorc picks one of the three phases (Sun, Moon, Stars) and gains the power listed below. However, the first time he is Bloodied in an Encounter, he loses whatever Phase Power he had and gains the next Phase Power in the order.

The Phases are ordered as such:
Sun -> Moon -> Stars -> Sun... and so on.

Example

Spoiler

Show

Ralika the Sorceress wakes up in the morning and chooses the Sun Phase. Her first Encounter for they day is with a bunch of Orcs, and they discover that whenever they stand adjacent to Ralika, they take STR worth of Fire/Radiant damage. Ow.

Eventually an Orc drops Ralika down to Bloodied. Immediately her Phase shifts to the next one in the order (Moon) and instead of causing Fire/Radiant damage, she's gaining +1 AC per enemy adjacent to her.

The party finishes killing the Orcs, and take a Short Rest. At the end of the Short Rest, Ralika decides she'd like to go back to Sun Phase; she loses her Moon Phase powers, and begins inflicting Fire/Radiant damage again.

It's pretty neat.

EDIT:
Clearly, the first Cosmic Sorceress will be Half-Elven, wear a miniskirt, and start every battle with "In the name of the Moon, I will punish you!"

[Nu]

Given that this spell source uses Strength, I can't think of any other time when the phrase "Fist of the North Star" would be more appropriate.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Given that this spell source uses Strength, I can't think of any other time when the phrase "Fist of the North Star" would be more appropriate.

I gotta say, I'm still having a bit of trouble getting the whole "muscle for magic" thing through my mind - particularly for "cosmic" magic - but it does allow you to make Bodybuilder Sorcerers who cast with their biceps

[Eldmor]

Alex Louis Armstrong (of Fullmetal Alchemist) would be proud.

[Townopolis]

Alex Louis Armstrong (of Fullmetal Alchemist) would be proud.

Damnit! I wanted to say that.

[TheOOB]

I see two reasons they use strength/dex for sorcerers. First is that it's an ability score array no one else uses. Second is that since sorcerer's channel pure arcane energy through their body, they need to be physically strong to channel it fully(or agile as the case may be). While charisma might determine how much raw powerful they can manifest, their strength/dexterity is a measure of how much they can control it while it flows throw there body.

Of course this is all just random speculation and guessing, but if a player needs a justification it works.

[Dhavaer]

I see two reasons they use strength/dex for sorcerers. First is that it's an ability score array no one else uses.

Aren't Rogues Str/Dex/Cha as well?

[Tengu_temp]

Damnit! I wanted to say that.

Don't worry, you're not the only one.

[Asbestos]

Warlock Star Pact the "Stars" are actually far Realm Aliens, and the effects are mainly illusions and light- it also had some ties to Fate (Horoscopes). Cosmic Magic is aimed toward the real astrometic bodies, it's physics magic: Gravity, orbits, meteors, etc. It's less random than Chaos but more varied than Draconic, I think it'll fit in well.

I guess my issue with it is that with sorcerers X power flows through them. So, dragon, chaos, and sure storm magic all make sense to me. I don't get how the power behind the rotation of heavenly bodies can flow through you.

"Burn as I unleash the raw strength of astronomy and the natural laws!"

[Tengu_temp]

Fantasy world. Stars aren't just astronomy, they have arcane power.

[Oslecamo]

Spells dependant of strenght? Now I've seen it all.

Well the 4e paladin was hiting people in the face with charisma so I guess it's only fair the sorceror gets to make arcane blasts with his muscles.

[Kurald Galain]

People should drop the associatition that the ability score "Strength" (or indeed, any of the other five) has a meaningful relation with what the word "strength" means in real life. It does not, it is just one of the six attributes. WOTC saw that one of the six attributes was used less often than the other five, so they made up a mechanic that uses it, because it is part of game balance to use all six attributes equally often.

That said, the sun/moon/stars mechanic strikes me as gimmicky for the sake of it. It seems to be a key point for sorcerers that they get arbitrary abilities that change at arbitrary moments. It's a bit like the old Wild Surge table only without the fun parts; I can't say I like the class much, even though it does a better job at arcane striking than the warlock.

[shadowmage]

A Paladin using charisma is not hitting a person in their face, it is the paladins, I am bigger and badder then you scaring the will out of a person to fight. HP is not just physical health but the will to fight.

On the str from magic I can kind of see it but it is hard to put into words. The dex part is maybe being better able to make the gestures needed? In the same vein maybe making the geatures with more force add to their effects?

[Asbestos]

On the str from magic I can kind of see it but it is hard to put into words. The dex part is maybe being better able to make the gestures needed? In the same vein maybe making the geatures with more force add to their effects?

Avatar: the Last Airbender

Dexterity would be for Fire, Air, and Waterbending.
Earthbending would be primarily strength.

Despite KG's claims, there is some precedence for using strength with magic.

[FinalJustice]

Str based Cosmic Sorcerer? Finally I'll be able do roll up my own Knight of the Zodiac.

[Tiki Snakes]

The way I see it, a sorerer requires strength or so for his casting because of the new flavour of sorcery. It is barely controlled, wild and potent. He's litterally wrestling with the cosmos to wring this power out of it, and even more literaly to control it. He requires strong arms as he guestures because otherwise he will end up flailing randomly, like a 90lbs weakling trying to control a fire-hose on his own.

[Iroel]

Hmmm, that actually reminds me of the male channelers of WoT...

[Myatar_Panwar]

People should drop the associatition that the ability score "Strength" (or indeed, any of the other five) has a meaningful relation with what the word "strength" means in real life. It does not, it is just one of the six attributes. WOTC saw that one of the six attributes was used less often than the other five, so they made up a mechanic that uses it, because it is part of game balance to use all six attributes equally often.

Doesn't mean you shouldn't try and justify it. And people have done so pretty nicely in this thread.

[Kurald Galain]

Doesn't mean you shouldn't try and justify it.

Actually, it does. WOTC makes zero attempt to justify most of their rules from an in-world perspective; instead, everything is justified on game balance and ease of play.

And people have done so pretty nicely in this thread.

Not at all. People have given a few nonsensical or ludicrous ideas that are as much a justification as the Chewbacca Defense is. And funnily enough, none of those ideas have a relation to what the word "strength" means in real life, thus proving my point.

The existence of (very few) people who are strong and use magic (who almost without exception use magic to boost their strength, rather than vice versa) does not make it archetypical that being a body builder makes you better at pulling flames out of nowhere.

Any explanation that justifies everything, in fact justifies nothing. If an explanation makes the same amount of sense when you substitute "strength" by "constitution" (or for that matter, by "goldfish"), that only shows the explanation makes no sense, and you've only proven that magic use really has no meaningful relationship at all to "attributes".

[Artanis]

Assuming that "meh, it's magic, roll with it" isn't acceptable, the closest thing to a coherent explanation of STR boosting sorcerer spells would be for dragon magic: higher STR implies more dragon in your blood which implies more power. It doesn't really work, but that's the closest I can come up with. Cosmic magic, I got nothin'.

Aren't Rogues Str/Dex/Cha as well?

I thought that Rogues were DEX + STR/CHA while Sorcerers were CHA + STR/DEX.

[Asbestos]

Actually, it does. WOTC makes zero attempt to justify most of their rules from an in-world perspective; instead, everything is justified on game balance and ease of play.


Not at all. People have given a few nonsensical or ludicrous ideas that are as much a justification as the Chewbacca Defense is. And funnily enough, none of those ideas have a relation to what the word "strength" means in real life, thus proving my point.


Any explanation that justifies everything, in fact justifies nothing. If an explanation makes the same amount of sense when you substitute "strength" by "constitution" (or for that matter, by "goldfish"), that only shows the explanation makes no sense, and you've only proven that magic use really has no meaningful relationship at all to "attributes".

Seriously, KG, I've got some respect for you but you keep harping on this and ignoring points that have been made in the various threads that you have brought this up in.

The existence of (very few) people who are strong and use magic (who almost without exception use magic to boost their strength, rather than vice versa) does not make it archetypical that being a body builder makes you better at pulling flames out of nowhere.

As has been said many times before... Armstrong (who people keep bringing up as the best example of this) uses his strength to boost his magic, not vice versa (and don't anyone say that 'alchemy isn't magic') Does one dude make an archetype? No. But does it mean that you can just ignore the example because it doesn't fly with your interpretation that stats have no meaningful in-world application? Again, no. I already made an argument about this in another thread, I'll just go find and link the post, but I'm getting tired of seeing you continually bring this up; if you can't think of reasons it might make sense, then fine, play the game that way, but quit trying to shove this assertion of yours down everyone else's throat in every other thread that mentions "strength and magic" or "hitting people with charisma".

edit: I can't find my darn post, it must be buried pretty far. Found a previous one where this was being discussed and I pseudo-agreed? About fluff laziness at least.

[Oslecamo]

A Paladin using charisma is not hitting a person in their face, it is the paladins, I am bigger and badder then you scaring the will out of a person to fight. HP is not just physical health but the will to fight.

So you're saying that D&D 4e uses the same rules for physical and social conflict? Is the paladin killing enemies just by scaring the crap out of them with glares while the rest of the party is shooting energy or stabbing with pointy things?

What hapened with oversized glowing swords being wielded by skinny blonde pretty boys?

[Reverent-One]

Not at all. People have given a few nonsensical or ludicrous ideas that are as much a justification as the Chewbacca Defense is. And funnily enough, none of those ideas have a relation to what the word "strength" means in real life, thus proving my point.

The existence of (very few) people who are strong and use magic (who almost without exception use magic to boost their strength, rather than vice versa) does not make it archetypical that being a body builder makes you better at pulling flames out of nowhere.

Any explanation that justifies everything, in fact justifies nothing. If an explanation makes the same amount of sense when you substitute "strength" by "constitution" (or for that matter, by "goldfish"), that only shows the explanation makes no sense, and you've only proven that magic use really has no meaningful relationship at all to "attributes".

Well, I'll leave aside how strange I find it that you don't seem to think being able to control one's muscles is a function of strength and just explain how I understand it.

So, a sorcerer gets his power from within. For one reason or another, being able to access arcane power is natural for them. However, they are tapping into a larger force and channeling it's raw power, unlike Wizards who use words to take control of arcane energies. This is the basic concept of their magic.

So why does strength help them? Well, they are channeling raw, untamed power through their bodies, so their strength helps them keep in control of themselves as all of this power rushes through them. More strength means they are able to adequately channel more power, which translates into more damage.

If you can buy into the idea that some people can say a few words that let them break the laws of physics or that some people love nature so much that the forces of nature let them change shape, appearance, and even their very mass, it's really not that strange.

[Oracle_Hunter]

[S]ince sorcerer's channel pure arcane energy through their body, they need to be physically strong to channel it fully(or agile as the case may be). While charisma might determine how much raw powerful they can manifest, their strength/dexterity is a measure of how much they can control it while it flows throw there body.

I like this explanation.

CHA-casters have been associated with "force of personality" spells since 3E, so it's easy fluff to swallow. Since you're using CHA, you wouldn't use to CON to represent the reserve of energy; DEX is associated with fine movements / manipulation while STR is associated with raw power.

Consider me convinced

[X15lm204]

A lot of people have mentioned getting Anime vibes from this, but there's one that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned.

Defending yourself by recklessly and thoughtlessly beating attacks out of the way? Turning material power into spiritual power? Gaining skill and mental endurance from the hordes of enemies surrounding you? Making said hordes of enemies EXPLODE!!!!!! from the sheer force of your awesomeness? All of that screams (appropriately) Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann to me.

"This drill is my implement!!"

Multiclassing between this and Paladin could make an excellent Spiral Knight.

[TheOOB]

Aren't Rogues Str/Dex/Cha as well?

Rogues are Dex-Str/Cha, Sorcerers are Cha-Str/Dex...or it's possible I forgot about this :)

Here is some other food for thought, another justification for why strength and or dexterity makes sense. Use or ignore to your taste.

Charisma is your individuality, your ability to perceive yourself and make an impression. Sorcerer magic comes from yourself, and your self image. Wouldn't it make some sense that a stronger self makes a stronger self image and thus stronger magic?

Edit: Great, now next time my warlord uses inspiring words on my cosmic sorcerer "Don't believe in yourself. Believe in me. Believe in me, who believes in you!"

[Kurald Galain]

Wouldn't it make some sense that a stronger self makes a stronger self image and thus stronger magic?

Not if you're a emotiefling

Seriously though, I consider it one of the stronger features of 4E that your str-score has no relation any more to how strong your character actually is. Why? Because this allows for wider scope in characters. You can make a scrawny little runt of a fighter, who can't lift a boulder but has done enough training to be completely awesome with a sword. This works because this character's high str-score doesn't mean he is muscular or mighty, it means he is good with fighter attack powers (and basic attacks, and climbing). Likewise, you can make a smart and knowledgeable ranger while keeping int as his dump stat, because his int-score doesn't refer to being clever or precocious.

Neither character is feasible in 3E without sacrificing your character's effectivity, because all fighters have to be strong and all wizards have to have an Einstein-level IQ. Bboth do work in 1E and 2E because they put much less emphasis on ability scores, but that's beside the point here.