WH40K Vs Starcraft: a different PoW?

[Killer Angel]

This won’t be the usual “Vs thread”, so it will not follow the rules of standard confrontation.
Let me state a basic premise: Every race (army) of WH40K universe, beats every army of Starcraft.
There were a lot of threads in the past ‘bout this argument; even if you don’t agree that Tyranids are Stronger than Zergs, the premise in this threads it’s that WH40K wins, hands down (while I like more Starcraft).
This way, I hope we can stay far away from the flames.
The confrontation will be merely by fluff, not by “facts”, ‘cause every conclusion, discussing on power gap between equipment in 2 different game systems, it’s a little debatable.
So, opinions (and confutations) based on fluff, inspired by cinematic or novels, is acceptable.

The confrontation is between the Imperium of Men, and Starcraft’s Terrans; Tyranids will be the judge.
Suppose a huge Hive Fleet (not a scouting one) is ready to assault... the first objective is a relatively small planetary system, on the fringe of the galaxy.

Scenario n. 1: The Imperium of men.
On the long run, the Imperium have a good chance to stop or divert the invasion, for example through Extermination tactic (as with Hive fleet Leviathan), while gathering armies and marine chapters from the imperium, but the System is clearly doomed. You must defend it (to gain time), but the result is undeniable (you don’t wanna waste Adeptus Titanicus on this one).

Scenario n. 2: Terran Empire.
Maybe the only chance for the survival of men, is try to divert the ‘nids attention on another objective (a pity there are no orcs...).
As Scenario 1, the System is clearly doomed; the only purpose in defending it, it’s to gain some time.

At this point, probably you’re saying: WTF? Where’s the confrontation? Space marines and Terran marines don’t even face each other, they both are going to die horribly, swarmed by an entire Hive Fleet.
Yes, this is the setting.
The question is: who dies better?

In a “standard” conflict, Space marines beat the Terran marines 9 times on 10 (the 10th, the terran surrender before the battle begins).
But this is different, the humans are going to be largely outnumbered; this is a defensive battle, a Fort Alamo on planetary scale.
If the Terrans excel in one thing, this is a defensive battle. In Starcraft, they can hold positions against a far superior number of enemies. Bunker, siege tanks, medics, repairing SCV... there are no paragonable units with their potential. And they give the best against hordes of zerg.
Tyranids are no zerg, but genestealer had to pay a very high price trying to break a standard terran defensive line, and they will be weakened a lot by units as science vessels, with the ability to negate claws damage in CC.
Siege Tanks behind bunkers, supported by cloacked wraith and battlecruiser with Yamato gun, can be a tough prey even for units as Carnifex, Lictor or Hive Tyrant, and I think maybe they can hold at bay (for a little while) a Bio-titan. Not counting nuclear strikes by ghosts.
In the end they will die, but Tyranids got to pay the devil for each yard.

The Space Marines are not easy breakable (see the defence of Macragge), but they’re not build for a defensive battle. They are not comfortable hidin’ in trenches; they attack, smashing the enemy.
Siege tanks? I don’t have the link to the specific image, but we all know by fluff and propaganda, that one of the main purpose of tanks, is to carry the Marine officier with the gun and the sword in close combat...

My conclusion: in the end they all die, but (by fluff) I would say that (in this specific setting), the Terrans will offer more resistance than the Space Marines, even if they are weaker in comparison, or at least, the Tyranids will find the same difficulties in breakin’ them.

Discuss?

[Killer Angel]

Wow, I can't believe it...
24 hours and NO POSTS on a thread involving WH40.000?

I must have done something wrong...

Anyway, last call.

[hamishspence]

Might depend on how you view Marines & Terminators compared to Marines and Firebats, vs Hordes.

Terminator armour is famously good- but even it can be worn down given a big enough Horde. The entire 1st company was lost at the Battle of Macragge.

Depending on the numbers, I'd say, inside a fortress, the Terminators + Veterans will do much better than the Terran marines man for man (they are specialists in close-fighting) but outside, it is possible, that the marines might be better at combined forces defensive tactics.

I'm inclined to say though, that even if the terrans kill more tyranids in the initial assault on their defensive line (assuming similar sized forces) the Imperium marines will do much better once the Tyranids are actually invading the fortress.

[Killer Angel]

Might depend on how you view Marines & Terminators compared to Marines and Firebats, vs Hordes.

Terminator armour is famously good- but even it can be worn down given a big enough Horde. The entire 1st company was lost at the Battle of Macragge.

Depending on the numbers, I'd say, inside a fortress, the Terminators + Veterans will do much better than the Terran marines man for man (they are specialists in close-fighting) but outside, it is possible, that the marines might be better at combined forces defensive tactics.

I'm inclined to say though, that even if the terrans kill more tyranids in the initial assault on their defensive line (assuming similar sized forces) the Imperium marines will do much better once the Tyranids are actually invading the fortress.

These are all good points, but I suppose that you cannot use only Terminators for an entire planet, while the terrans, generally weaker, offer a good medium quality for this kind of battles.
My point is: terrans are veaker than the imperium, but history and fiction, teach us that (with the right conditions) a weaker army can inflict very hard losses to a stronger one (Fort alamo, Crecy, Omaha beach, Helm's deep).
So, this rule may apply also to WH40K universe, and i'm trying to find such a scenario.
In this case, I use terrans as the weaker army...

[Revlid]

Terminator armour is famously good- but even it can be worn down given a big enough Horde. The entire 1st company was lost at the Battle of Macragge.

You could phrase it that way. Or you could phrase it as - 100 men managed to break the back of a Hive Fleet invasion before dying.

Marines would do better, simply because their Rule of Cool powers outweigh their Starcraftian competitors.

[Oslecamo]

Oh gods not this again. Look discussion about WH40K seting vs anything else in any condition is pointless because the WH40K fluff basically says "The side who's telling the battle wins". Yes Chaos is super-powerfull but they can't actualy take a single planet. Yes marines are immortal, they just happen to be killed by arrows now and then. Yes the nids are coming, they're just so slow that every sun in the galaxy will have long died out when their main force actually arrives. Yes the Emperium is really strong and high tech, they just can't take down the little 4000 year old Taus.

Marines would do better, simply because their Rule of Cool powers outweigh their Starcraftian competitors.

Altough indeed anything on WH40K runs on the rule of cool, the mixing of the starcraft universe will smoother that.

The terrans just need to use something that the SM lost long ago:brains.

While the SM draw their chainswords and hunger for close combat and slaughter themselves while waiting on the nids to arrive on acusations of heresy, the terrans quickly build a fleet out of rock and gas and take to the skies. Yes, the nids have flying units of their own, but the brunt of their force are ground-limited units who can't really do anything against space ships.

Keep irradiating the little buggers, hit and run with drop ships filled with fire bats, plant mines, and laugh while the SM uselessly charge in the nids lines.

In the end planet is overrun, but Terrans survive as they escape into hyperspace.

Proceed to make alliance with Eldars and Taus. Destroy the golden throne. Rinse and repeat untill all WH40K factions have anihilated each other mutually.

[Killer Angel]

You could phrase it that way. Or you could phrase it as - 100 men managed to break the back of a Hive Fleet invasion before dying.

Marines would do better, simply because their Rule of Cool powers outweigh their Starcraftian competitors.

They're so cool that sometimes they must attack, even when it's a bad idea... I'm thinking of the cinematic intro of dawn of war: marines leaving the cover of ruins to frontally attack the orcs.

And sometimes, the weaker can fight very well. Lobo (aka The Man), after beating some dude, admit with pleasure that it was a good fight.
Rule of cool works both way: the weaker (Terrans) can fight "over the top" when facing stronger enemies (Tyranids).

[hanzo66]

While the Spess Marines would certainly outrank Terran Marines (who are probably just above Imperial Guardsman), but indeed the Terrans are probably going to be better at defense. I'm not sure exactly of how certain units measure to others thought (Siege Tank Vs. Predator for example) but I would say that maybe a Ghost would be pretty useful. Aren't they sort of basically Vindicare Assassins if they were Psykers?

[warty goblin]

Terrans really cannot hope to do very well at this IMHO. They simply lack most of the basic requirements for a truly effective defense, such as:

1) Machine guns. A fixed, high caliber fully automatic weapon with a changable barrel to allow nearly continuous firing is a very good thing to have against a horde of enemies. AFAIK the terrans lack such a weapon, instead using individual gauss rifles, which, at least from gameplay, have significant cooldown/reload times between bursts. The volume, accuracy and lethality of fire from these is just not likely to be comparable.

2) Rapid-firing artillery. Sure siege tanks are good, but they are also significant overkill when not attacking hardened strongpoints. It would be far more effective to use something along the lines of a rapid firing, smaller caliber weapon for a defensive fight, since it would allow a reasonably small number of units to lay down a comparitively large volume of fire relative to an equal number of seige tanks. Against a swarming enemy where individual units are not too difficult to kill, high output of shells is, from what I can tell, better than lower output of larger shells. Put another way, a fifteen inch mortar shell will kill people in a fairly wide area, but not nearly as wide as the combined killzones of the ten or so 3 to 5 inch pieces you could get for the same expense.

3) Lack of effective air to ground attack vehicles. Nowhere in the terran line up have I seen anything even approaching the lethality of a fighter/bomber in terms of killing stuff on the ground. Where are the rocket pods, electric gatling guns, cluster bombs, napalm, high caliber anti-armor cannons and other equivilent goodies that can be put on a modern aircraft? All of these can do really horrible things to attacking forces, particularly those with trouble with such concepts as 'cover' and 'combined arms'.

4) Contentious point here, but Terran armor really is not that good. Remember a battlecruiser can be brought down by sufficient small arms fire. from Marines (at least in gameplay.) These things are supposed to be equivilent to a wet navy's capital ships. According to the fluff I've been told about, a gauss rifle can penetrate ~2 inches of steel. The H.M.S. Dreadnaught, launched over a hundred years ago at no point had less than 2.5 inches of steel armor, and in places up to 11. The U.S.S Iowa has no less than 7.5 inches of armor at any important point, and up to nearly 20 inches on the turrets. It seems reasonable, (although not neccessary) to conclude that even a hundred year old battleships were better protected than the Terrans' most durable unit. Ponder that for a moment if you will.


I'm not saying the Space Marines would do better neccessarily, I'm saying the Terrans would not do well.

[Killer Angel]

Terrans really cannot hope to do very well at this IMHO. They simply lack most of the basic requirements for a truly effective defense, such as:

2) Rapid-firing artillery. Sure siege tanks are good, but they are also significant overkill when not attacking hardened strongpoints. It would be far more effective to use something along the lines of a rapid firing, smaller caliber weapon for a defensive fight, since it would allow a reasonably small number of units to lay down a comparitively large volume of fire relative to an equal number of seige tanks.



4) Contentious point here, but Terran armor really is not that good. Remember a battlecruiser can be brought down by sufficient small arms fire. from Marines (at least in gameplay.) These things are supposed to be equivilent to a wet navy's capital ships. According to the fluff I've been told about, a gauss rifle can penetrate ~2 inches of steel. The H.M.S. Dreadnaught, launched over a hundred years ago at no point had less than 2.5 inches of steel armor, and in places up to 11. The U.S.S Iowa has no less than 7.5 inches of armor at any important point, and up to nearly 20 inches on the turrets. It seems reasonable, (although not neccessary) to conclude that even a hundred year old battleships were better protected than the Terrans' most durable unit. Ponder that for a moment if you will.

.

On point 2. that's true, but shots from Siege tanks (while having a not-so-bad scatter damage) are good to eliminate the big threats (carnifex, etc).
Maybe, to support tha lack of good medium caliber, terrans could use Goliath? Not so good as dreadnought, but i think they're cheaper.

On point 4 i would not use comparisons with real world units... otherwise there's no way a machine gun can stop a heavy tank. It's a game necessity.
Maybe the penetration power of gauss rifles is VERY good.

The same way WAAAGH exists: to justify the fact that an axe can cut a terminator armour...

[Oslecamo]

1) Machine guns. A fixed, high caliber fully automatic weapon with a changable barrel to allow nearly continuous firing is a very good thing to have against a horde of enemies. AFAIK the terrans lack such a weapon, instead using individual gauss rifles, which, at least from gameplay, have significant cooldown/reload times between bursts. The volume, accuracy and lethality of fire from these is just not likely to be comparable.

Yoh gawd I heard you needed to fight hordes so we got you these firebats so you can make continuous fire(literally) while the marines shoot down the enemy aircraft and heavies.

2) Rapid-firing artillery. Sure siege tanks are good, but they are also significant overkill when not attacking hardened strongpoints. It would be far more effective to use something along the lines of a rapid firing, smaller caliber weapon for a defensive fight, since it would allow a reasonably small number of units to lay down a comparitively large volume of fire relative to an equal number of seige tanks. Against a swarming enemy where individual units are not too difficult to kill, high output of shells is, from what I can tell, better than lower output of larger shells. Put another way, a fifteen inch mortar shell will kill people in a fairly wide area, but not nearly as wide as the combined killzones of the ten or so 3 to 5 inch pieces you could get for the same expense.

Why do you need rapid fire-artillery at all when you can turn nids radioactive so they burn their own bretherns in a matter of seconds? Irradiate all the way for organic swarms baby!

3) Lack of effective air to ground attack vehicles. Nowhere in the terran line up have I seen anything even approaching the lethality of a fighter/bomber in terms of killing stuff on the ground. Where are the rocket pods, electric gatling guns, cluster bombs, napalm, high caliber anti-armor cannons and other equivilent goodies that can be put on a modern aircraft? All of these can do really horrible things to attacking forces, particularly those with trouble with such concepts as 'cover' and 'combined arms'.

At least they have an air force! The SM "air" units can't even keep out of melee range. Also, terran reasearchers have indeed started to work in dedicated air to ground fliers. The bashees are a new design fited specially to deal with ground troops.

4) Contentious point here, but Terran armor really is not that good. Remember a battlecruiser can be brought down by sufficient small arms fire. from Marines (at least in gameplay.)

It's just the gauss rifles wich are damn good. They shall be used to rip apart the nid's own ships up on the air as they try to descend in the ground.

These things are supposed to
be equivilent to a wet navy's capital ships. According to the fluff I've been told about, a gauss rifle can penetrate ~2 inches of steel. The H.M.S. Dreadnaught, launched over a hundred years ago at no point had less than 2.5 inches of steel armor, and in places up to 11. The U.S.S Iowa has no less than 7.5 inches of armor at any important point, and up to nearly 20 inches on the turrets. It seems reasonable, (although not neccessary) to conclude that even a hundred year old battleships were better protected than the Terrans' most durable unit. Ponder that for a moment if you will.

Yoh and lasguns are suposed to rip off people's limbs yet in the game they hit as hard as a normal man's punch. Does this mean your average guardsmen can tear other people apart with his own teeths? Also, the rules say a SM can be brought down by a guardsmen punching them! Who are the tough guys now?

Don't mix rules and fluff like that. It doesn't end well.