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Thread: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
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2009-04-02, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
Just keeps getting better and better.
Stanley'll probably see the lava and assume that the Titans have destroyed his enemies. And then he'll see the pliers...
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2009-04-02, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
Just a thought - while the volcano would undoubtedly croak every living unit, and vapourise every uncroaked unit, and is sufficiently hot to burn to ash all wooden and cloth units in the area, it does not necessarily mean that Sizemore's metal and rock golems will be affected (except maybe being immobilised until someone digs them out). Hence, GK still has units in GK, retaining control of what's left of the city for Stanley and Parson.
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2009-04-02, 03:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
For a tragic character, going insane is a prerequisite for regaining sanity and the ultimate happy ending, so in that sense this is a very promising development for Jillian. Of course, for a tragic character, the ultimate happy ending is death right after regaining sanity.
So is she tragic or isn't she? Lost her home, lost her lord, lost her brother-figure (Jack), lost her lover, lost her sanity -- yep, I'd say so. Shakespeare or Whedon would definitely kill her off.
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2009-04-02, 04:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
It really depends on your style and the opening available. When I learned knife fighting techniques in Wing Chun, not butterfly sword, but knife, we learned to keep the knife behind our back and change our grip. Since the opponent couldn't see the grip we used, it would limit the defense options available. Possibly lead to hesitation, or the incorrect block used for the grip applied. We might not do a down thrust, because it goes against our style's theory, but a punch directed at the face with the knife down, blade out to catch a block on the extension, or knife down blade back to inflict damage on the retraction.
However, I think in this case the grip and trajectory of the knife is more about emotion than training. Or what we always called caveman style in class because the hammer fist is an instinctual attack motion, but not used as much in trained fighting, especially as an opening attack, because it creates a huge opening for a direct retaliatory strike."If I could just interrupt your stunningly dysfunctional group dynamic for a moment to interject." -- Erfworld
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2009-04-02, 04:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
Jillian's actions in the second to last panel are in character. That being said, it still seems very strange, and it definitely it strains the credulity of many readers.
The problem, I believe, is yet another example of poor word choice.
Jillian hears the news and thinks: "No, Ansom can't be dead. Caesar is lying." Then she attacks him, and it makes (some) sense that she'd try to knife him for lying to her. That is, I'm assuming this is why shes attacking him, its the only reasonable explanation I can come up with. If this is the case, instead of saying 'No!', she should be saying 'Liar!'.
Because of the context, using the word 'No' in this instance is inappropriate. If Caesar said, "I'm going to kill Ansom," Jillian could respond with 'No' and attack him. That would make sense because the word in that case repudiates both the action and the person responsible for it.
In the strip, however, Caesar is merely reporting a fact: Ansom is dead. Jillian's response of 'No' should lead to depression, not her going for the throat. Her attacking Caesar is from a new line of thought beyond denial of Ansom's death and - as a favor to the reader, lets say - it requires more expressive, and accurate, diction.
Otherwise cool strip.
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2009-04-02, 04:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
instare, thanks for so eloquently laying out the point I was trying to get acorss. I think your statements convey my misgivings about that particular exchange and why Jillian's actions just seemed a bit skewed to me. I'm hoping we will not jump away to another scene with the next strip since I would really like to hear Jillian's explanation for the attack.
On another note, a previous reader reminded me of the incident where Jillian nearly decapitates Webinar after he questioned her loyalty. While I do not think that explains her current behavior (I don't think being hotheaded or prideful would induce the attack) it does remind me that we are reading this story in an imperfect medium. It will eventually be a book so instead of learning about these characters over the course of years, it iwll be over the course of an hour or two, keeping preivous incidents fresh in our minds.
Not sure that is really relevant but still important to keep in mind.
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2009-04-02, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
We only have Parson's hypothesis of what's going, we are actually no closer to knowing what is going on than before he stated his opinion on the matter. After all, there is little reason to believe Parson knows any thing more about the nature of Erf reality than we do. Sure in Parson's game, he was trying to cheat the players, but he has already made clear that are plenty of elements in his game that aren't in Erfworld and vice-versa. So yes, maybe someone or something in Erf is cheating against him, or maybe Ansom really is just is really lucky (or has tons of luckamancy that finally ran out at the end).
Just a thought - while the volcano would undoubtedly croak every living unit, and vapourise every uncroaked unit, and is sufficiently hot to burn to ash all wooden and cloth units in the area, it does not necessarily mean that Sizemore's metal and rock golems will be affected (except maybe being immobilised until someone digs them out). Hence, GK still has units in GK, retaining control of what's left of the city for Stanley and Parson.Last edited by Glome; 2009-04-02 at 04:34 PM.
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2009-04-02, 04:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
No, she holds a sword to Webinar's throat only after he accuses her of being a double agent for Stanley. She was actually quite restrained and tolerant in the face of Webinar's insubordination up to that point. Of course, she only put her sword to Webinar's throat to demonstrate that she had no interest in killing him. That is certainly not the vibe I get from her actions here.
Now Caesar is hitting both of her reasons for being there. Ansom is dead and she's being actively prevented from avenging herself on Stanley. On top of that he's taking her city sites just because they're there and free to him.
-H
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2009-04-02, 04:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
Not true. I've seen training with that style. Problem is that it has unreliable defensive capacity. Another weapon hits it, and your wrist turns, the weapon sliding in. It does allow for good power, and very fast slicing but poor thrusting (limited pretty much only to the overhead one she uses, though from the sidew in to the ribs is possible, just not a good choice because this brings the weapon out of position for any defense): held forward, it's poorer at slicing, and better at thrusting and defending. It's harder to see the blade, so it can also surprise the target with the direction of the blade: target thinks the fist missed, but the blade projects and the target is cut. You're right in that it is usually not a good idea, but...
Note that Caesar fights unarmed. She isn't facing another weapon to block, and so the lack of defense doesn't matter. She's coming down on him with as much power as possible, leaving her vulnerable to counterattack by anyone else, or even Caesar... certainly not the best choice, but she's enraged and probably not caring about her own survival. There's no real follow-up possibility with that attack, as a miss puts the blade down and away with momentum. Remember that she's just been told that she is essentially a prisoner. Either she thinks she's being lied to in order to promote compliance (in which case she views her future as hopeless), or she beleives him and wants to be with Ansom.
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2009-04-02, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
Caesar's information is correct but not complete and he's aware of it. "Bunny starts callin' the other Coalition sides. Everyone she gets through to" is all units lost. But she implicitly didn't get through to all the (former) coalition members otherwise the qualifier isn't necessary. "She called Jetstone, They confirm:..."
The language used at various points in the comic has always struck me as being very precise -- to the point of specifically implying unstated details by omission.
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2009-04-02, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that "Jillian thinks he's lying" (in order to dissuade her from trying to make a run for it, by claiming that her main motivations -- the battle and Ansom -- are gone) is a large part of it. The fact that Caesar's story includes an element that is supposed to be absolutely impossible (a multi-hex Dirtamancy trap) could easily be seen as proof that he's lying (and doing it brazenly, thus continuing his string of personal insults toward Jillian).
Given her personality, I don't think that lashing out violently is at all out of character.
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2009-04-02, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
Wow... so now we know Parson's plan not only looked like a WMD – it really was a WMD. I guess it's not too extreme to imagine, that the world's balance of power has significantly shifted?
I mean if the Coalition members and Charlie have lost a significant size of their armies, it may take them many turns to recover (if they can recover at all). It seems the vampires may have gotten off the lightest... thus they might be in the greatest position of power.
Titans only know how severe Jetstone's political reputation is like now, in that, other sides will be VERY less likely to form coalitions with them.
Charlie must be going through all sorts of emotions himself. He underestimated Parson... greatly underestimated him. I'm sure more than ever, Charlie will do anything in his power to get Parson on his side.
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2009-04-02, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
Hmm... didn't we learn that to cast you must be under attack or it must be your turn by word o titan?
Translovitio's caster was a casting, so that means they must have rejoined the coalition, or allied with someone. That means translovito acts after Stanley, not sure if that matter though. Now Charlie is out, I don't think we wants to mix it up with Parson anymore for unknown potential gain.
This means that Stanley will get to the city unmolested. If the lava has cooled off and its fit for building on then he pretty much has a win. Gems, a hiding place. If he can rebuild the portal the super-caster-weapon. (Death Metal Golems anyone?) And also possibly the pliers, if he attunes he has come out well ahead.
Translovito also comes out of this in a very good situation. They get three hidden cities, and many nearby forces are weakened, and with out field units. Also anyone who didn't commit a ton of forces is in a very good position right now. Well I hope the results on all the sides are seen.
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2009-04-02, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
Personally, I don't think Red survived. But if she did? She's gonna wish she didn't. Because it seems quite likely that Stanley's gonna show up very soon with a powerful Foolamancer and a passel of dwagons, and if he sees an enemy warlord holding the Arkenpliers on the site of his burned-out city...
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2009-04-02, 05:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
We know that she got through to Unaroyal and Jetstone. I'd guess Charlie wouldn't offer any information about the event, nor about any losses. He's cagey, and unlikely to reveal weakness, especially with an Arkentool to guard. Better for others to not know he just lost a significant force.
But what is remarkable to me is that every unit of every force present lost 100% of all units. There were seige units incapable of getting there until late. This may indicate devastating damage. I think we see the beginning of a pyroclastic flow with the explosion, though it's a brighter explosion than any other I've seen. (Don't claim to have seen all of them.) There are images of Mt. St. Helens exploding, and it certainly did not have any magma glow to it. Up uhtil this strip, I still was suspecting that Rob wouldn't kill everything in the region, choosing a less than maximum capacity explosion. Wrong. I am so looking forward to Stanley arriving and seeing the smoldering remains of an active volcano.
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2009-04-02, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
Red didn't survive, because if she had, then efdup would have changed hands. There would have to be some wierd mechanic for a combat unit to not capture an undefended city.
"If I could just interrupt your stunningly dysfunctional group dynamic for a moment to interject." -- Erfworld
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2009-04-02, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
Hark! An avatar drawn by Kate Beaton!
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2009-04-02, 06:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
Yeah, I've seen some styles that use unorthodox grips, Silat players for example, and a number of Chinese kata 'look cool'. (Not that the styles don't have some good stuff, just that the practical sometimes get lost in the 'art' of 'martial art'.) In styles that involve sparring with wood or dull blades, it isn't used so much though. Underhand grip blade outward really seems only good for slashes, not even that good for stabs. What's odder it it seems like she was in position for a cross body draw. Right arm to her left side in the prior panel. If you think about how people wear their knives, usually its the edge to the back. If she grabbed it underhand with her cross hand, the blade should have been reversed from the image (not that you can't turn it, but I'm just trying to picture if she drew hastily in a fury. Even then the 'Psycho' stab with the edge up doesn't seem to make sense.) EDIT: Actually I suppose based on how she held her wrist, she could have drawn it underhand, edge out that way. Still why draw underhand. Feh. Total nitpick and I admit it. :P
Anyway, since its not a plot element, its not a big deal. More a thought for Jami to reconsider for when they put it in a book.
Also for those counting TV warlords left, there is one less. Bunny is a thinkamancer, not a warlord, so if you're counting her with the crowd you need to subtract one. Still, all in all, the Don must be considering the opportunities of not having lost many troops compared to other factions. Erfworld is a wargame after all. When many factions get whomped, its the time for other factions to act. EDIT#2: I see someone else pointed that out just above.
I'm curious to read in Book 2 whether a good # of the factions in the RCC are gone after uninvolved neighbors take the opportunity to conquer them. Jetstone having committed the most resources is the most likely to go I'd imagine.Last edited by Fez; 2009-04-02 at 06:06 PM.
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2009-04-02, 06:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
Yes, we sometimes trained with the reverse grip in Arnis (which is a style related to Escrima). It wasn't our primary approach, but it has its uses. Arnis blocks tend to be against the arm, rather than against the weapon, so blocking with a blade held this way would tend to cut the enemy's wrist, while you use your off hand to check his actual weapon (if any). The reverse grip also lets you use the knife as a hook, controlling the enemy's arm and cutting into it at the same time, if it's double-edged. Of course, you can do most of the same things with a straight grip, but it doesn't hurt to know both ways.
It's generally very poor for direct strikes to the body, which is what it looks like Jillian is trying to do. It looks very dramatic, but she ought to know better. It's particularly awkward if she did a cross-draw and ended up like that; it might be understandable if it were a quick-draw from a sheath on her right."That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be."
--Kirien, Seeker's Mask
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2009-04-02, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
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2009-04-02, 06:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
Red is in the courtyard, and the courtyard is part of the garrison. So all she had to do was be alive and not move to capture the garrison.
Last edited by ishnar; 2009-04-02 at 07:01 PM.
"If I could just interrupt your stunningly dysfunctional group dynamic for a moment to interject." -- Erfworld
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2009-04-02, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
NOGENERATION Aleph(0): Copy this into your sig and add or subtract 1 whenever you feel like it. This is a pointless experiment.
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2009-04-02, 07:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
I dont think so.
Its not that he had a different opinion (albeit a demonstrably silly one), because that happens. Miss or mis-hear one key detail and you can wind up with an entirely offbase conclusion. No problem. Its that even when shown to be basing his opinion on a falsehood he didnt revise his opinion at all, but kept right on using his original opinion to "stimulate debate". Classic trolling.Last edited by VariaVespasa; 2009-04-02 at 08:33 PM.
\'Twas brillig, and the slithey toves....
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2009-04-02, 07:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
Unless one of Sizemore's metal golems (perhaps one made of Bauxite) survived in the tunnels. Then a defender unit remains in the garrison and it's not captured.
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2009-04-02, 07:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
Bunny is the Thinkamancer we saw at Don King's palace -- she's not in the field. Note that Vinny says that she's "our Thinkamancer" (implying that they have just the one) in frame 6 after Caesar takes an incoming Thinkagram in frame 2.
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2009-04-02, 08:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
I really feel that this was unjustified. Calling someone a hater and a troll just because you don't agree with them is hardly the best way to represent your position.
Personally, I found Tamlin's post to be the most thought-provoking one in the thread so far, particularly the part concerning desensitization to violence within the comic (whether this was intended by the comic authors or not). The question of the significance of the lives and deaths of the people of Erfworld is something that's interested me from the start, and considering the fact that Parson doesn't know if all this is part of his comatose imagination, and how badly he was affected by Misty's death, I expected a little more... reluctance to take life on such a huge scale. Otherwise, he becomes far more of a villain-protagonist to me.
I feel sorry for Jillian at this point; I guess I can rationalise her reaction, though it still felt a little sudden and out of the blue to me (though I suppose the news was just as sudden to her).Last edited by Estelindis; 2009-04-02 at 08:16 PM.
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2009-04-02, 08:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
Hmm, now that I think about it I'm wondering how Jillian is paying for her troops. She has been earning cash through mercenary work, but I'm wondering how she's carrying it around, since it was a significant point in getting Parson summoned that Stanley couldnt run off with GK's treasury? I'm guessing that she, and thus presumably all overlords, have a small inate money-carrying capacity, but a note to that effect (and explaining what the limit is) in the book might be nice.
Related- Stanley will (probably) figure out that he still has a trimancer and (maybe or maybe not) a Parson on his payroll eventually (either when it seems odd to him that he hasnt gone barbarian yet and he checks his (troop)status, or when he does go barbarian (and presumably gets an automatic status update whether he asks for one or not), but once he notices do we have any indication that he has any way of finding out where they actually are? Might be sort of funny if he has a trimancer out there that he's paying for and cant find. :P
Ordinarily he would just issue orders and get updates through his thinkamancer, including troop locations if needed, but in theory she's not available as long as she's part of the trimancer. Can he talk to her while in that form? And if so does it present a risk of disrupting the trimancer? He probably doesnt run the risk of making Maggie recall her individuality given his impersonal treatment of most of his casters, but using her normal thinkamancer functions may itself be a risk while she's part of the trimancer. And if he wants more than just statistical information he's somewhat likely to want to talk to Wanda (old habits) and he DOES think of her as an individual... Again it would be sorta funny if, in trying to find out from Maggie whats going on, he disrupts the trimancer, and through his continued shouting in her ear prevents her from concentrating enough to direct the resulting damage away from her and croaks or incapacitates the only unit capable of answering his questions. :P
Edit- he could issue thinkamancy orders through the previous trimancer Maggie was part of, but we never saw him do it from afar, only in person, and that was a command-and-control style of trimancer and thus in keeping with a portion of its nature, whereas the current trimancer is not.
Even if Stanley does figure out he has a trimancer, and where it is, he might not be able to get it back since his portal to where it is is now under a volcano and there may not be any other way out of the Magic Kingdom that his units can use.
Its been suggested that Stanley may now have a nicely cleared GK, and a nice fresh supply of gems to rebuild with, but even if GK is still a city, and is habitable again in short order (Mount Saint Helens devastated the area, but the eruption didnt last long), does he actually have any way to get at the gems? He has no goblins to do the mining, and, until and unless he can get the trimancer back, no dirtamancer to do it. Can he last long enough financially to get Sizemore back, while supporting 4 major casters, 6 dwagons, 1+ KISS and maybe Parson? And what happens if the GK volcano is more like Anak Krakatau ("Child of Krakatoa", the new volcano at the site of Krakatoa, which is growing a about 15 feet per year...) and keeps on erupting rendering the site at least uninhabitable for years, if not destroyed? Vinnie thinks he cant support just 1 caster for very long and he's probably right, so 4 will destroy his cash supply extremely fast.
Jillian- she doesnt care about the city sites, but she does regard them as hers so she's unlikely to be willing to give them up to force. (although she might trade them for something useful to her goals since that would be her idea) So she's not going to react well to TV trying to claim her cities. Since she does have the fastest critters in the hex I'm thinking she'll calm down enough to play along till beginning of turn then do a runner on them. Alternately, if Vinnie sticks up for her, TV may turn it into something of a bargain with her and give her Vinnie (a possibly tainted and loyalty-suspect warlord) and supplies in return for the cities. Or alternatively again, TV may capture her by force and try to torture the information out of her (good thing she's had lots of practice resisting torture... :P), in which case part of book 2 may be Wanda deciding whether or not to try to rescue her.Last edited by VariaVespasa; 2009-04-02 at 08:40 PM.
\'Twas brillig, and the slithey toves....
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2009-04-02, 08:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-04-02, 08:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
First, Parson was granted ruthlessness through the magic of Erfworld. Second, we don't know what was going on inside Parson's head when he ordered uncroaking the volcano. Third, loss of life on a huge scale is not exactly unusual in war, but I suppose that according to your criteria, Eisenhower was a "villain-protagonist". [shrug] Finally, as has been discussed, in Parson's situation there wasn't much of a choice, no happy ending that would have preserved GK's forces.
I feel sorry for Jillian at this point; I guess I can rationalise her reaction, though it still felt a little sudden and out of the blue to me (though I suppose the news was just as sudden to her).Last edited by Architect; 2009-04-02 at 08:39 PM.
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2009-04-02, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 151 - tBfGK - 138
What I want to know is: Why did the attack not succeed? What's with the *SNAG*?
Red obviously had something big going through her mind the last time we saw her holding the Arkenpliers. Perhaps it was realizing she was attuned to them, perhaps she'd found a way out, perhaps she was just coming to terms with her own imminent death.
Personally, I think she comprehended the meaning of life, the universe, and everything.