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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Actually, there IS a way to get Quicken Spell before Rapid Metamagic, however it is non-core. PhB II variant, loose the Familiar to cast spontaneous metamagic without spending extra time, however you can only do it 1+Int Mod number of times per day. This at least qualifies you for Quicken earlier
    Hmm... 1+Cha mod would be a lot nicer; that would start at 4 and eventually hit 7. 1+Int will only be 2. Hard to say whether or not I'm going to want to Metamagic as a standard action more than twice a day... It's useful for more than just Quicken. Considering the rather wide variety of Metamagic that I'm looking at, I think I'll want Rapid Metamagic anyway. Plus the bonus save, Alertness, and eventually Imbue Familiar with Spell are all pretty good. Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Another metamagic feat in the SRD you may want is Repeat Spell. For a +3 SL, you get to have the same spell cast again the next round for free. It's like a delayed-blast quicken, only without eating another spell slot for the repeated spell. Very handy for laying down covering fire and battlefield control spells en masse.
    Aha. That is interesting. Now I have lots of possible Metamagic that I want. Hm.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Still Spell really isn't that valuable to you. Dimension Door/Teleport doesn't have any somatic components, which gets you out of any situation where you would want to cast a spell Stilled. It is primarily useful to Gish builds who want to cast spells in full plate.
    Yeah, that was the conclusion I came to.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Also, Mage Armor is obsolete. +1 Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt costs 5k and gives a +5 armor bonus to AC, all day long, without any Arcane Spell Failure Chance. Grab Shield instead. Even better, grab Shield if you want to Persist it. Flat immunity to any and all Magic Missiles for all day long, and the +4 Shield bonus to AC doesn't hurt either.
    As I don't see Twilight Mithral anywhere in the SRD, I'm not sure I can count on finding that in any dungeons or shops. Plus Mage Armor can be cast on allies, and lasts 60x as long... meaningless with Persist, but then it's costing a level 7 slot...

    OK, so desirable Metamagic: Heighten, Silent, Empower, Quicken, Repeat, Chain, and Persist. That's seven, I can get at most five - six if I don't get Quicken and Rapid Metamagic (or if I go with the variant above and don't get Rapid).

    At level 3, my character has Heighten and Silent (which I could probably change since my character hasn't used them yet; they're still just notes on the character sheet at this point).

    I need to get another with either my level 6 feat or my Paragon feat (which also happens at level 6) - the other of which pretty much has to be Spell Focus if I want Archmage on time. I was originally going to go Empower, but I don't have a particularly large number of Empower-able spells (10 + possibly Shadow Conj/Evoc), though Enervation, Disintegrate, EBT, and Greater Dispel Magic are all very solid choices for that. Notably, at level 6, Ray of Enfeeblement is my only one (though I get Scorching Ray at 8)... At the same time, I'm having a hard time envisioning how and with what spells I would use Repeat or Chain on. Like, which spells benefit especially from those Metamagics. Getting Persist would be ridiculous because I don't get a level 6 slot until 13. Even for Chain/Repeat, 3rd spells are a level away, and 4th spells (so I can Chain or Repeat something useful) are three levels away...

    Get Rapid Metamagic at 9, and Quicken (probably) at 12. My Loremaster and level 15 feats have to be the other Spell Focus and Spellcraft Focus, so I can get Archmage at 16. That leaves level 18 for one last Metamagic.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

    Twilight is in MIC, BoED, and PHBII (sidebar in Duskblade section), if any of those are available. Also, you need Extend Spell in order to get Persist.
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    Default Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post

    As I don't see Twilight Mithral anywhere in the SRD, I'm not sure I can count on finding that in any dungeons or shops. Plus Mage Armor can be cast on allies, and lasts 60x as long... meaningless with Persist, but then it's costing a level 7 slot...
    Mithral is from DMG: reduces ASF by 10% (besides other benefits).
    Twlight is from BoED and MIC. +1 enhancement.

    Both on Chain Shirt are awesome.


    You could also take 1 level in Complete Warrior class Spellsword: reduces ASF by 10%

    You don't need both Spellsword and Twlight: one or the other (unless you are wearing Mithral Breastplate)

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    Default Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

    BoED, MIC, PHB2, and Complete Warrior are all not available. The general requirement for non-Core stuff so far has been "can you find it online somewhere free?" - hence Rapid Metamagic, Reactive Counterspelling, and Arcane Thesis, all of which exist on WotC's site in some form (primarily little tables). Seeker's Chant came from CrystalKeep's spell lists. Chain Spell I can only find in forum posts, which means I might have trouble using it, but Feats are generally pretty simple so it might not be a problem.

    Spellsword's not in WotC's excerpt from Complete Warrior, which means that's not going to happen; classes are too complicated to attempt to use without the full details. Twilight doesn't appear in the PHB2 excerpt, and neither the Magic Item Compendium nor the Book of Exalted Deeds (I did get the right books for your abbreviations, right?) have any excerpts on the site, plus the availability of it would be up to the DM even if we were using those books. I could ask, but I'd somewhat doubt it.

    Further, Mithral, which is in the SRD, only reduces ASF by 10%. Chain Shirts have 20% ASF; I'm not really interested even in a 10% ASF. Still, it's an interesting option I wasn't aware of before. Now I'm considering a Light Mithral Shield or Mithral Buckler at some point... But the +1,000 gold is a bit beyond my means at this point. *shrug* But since I can get a shield and not an armor, Mage Armor looks even better now. Yes?
    Last edited by DragoonWraith; 2009-04-18 at 06:28 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post
    Considering the rather wide variety of Metamagic that I'm looking at, I think I'll want Rapid Metamagic anyway. Plus the bonus save, Alertness, and eventually Imbue Familiar with Spell are all pretty good. Thoughts?
    I always grab Rapid Metamagic for just those reasons. And because I find Familiars incredible with the Fighter-Wizard and Rogue/Wizard builds I usually play.

    OK, so desirable Metamagic: Heighten, Silent, Empower, Quicken, Repeat, Chain, and Persist. That's seven, I can get at most five - six if I don't get Quicken and Rapid Metamagic (or if I go with the variant above and don't get Rapid).
    Repeat requires enemies to stand still, more or less.
    Persist requires fixed range. That means it won't apply to much of anything on your list.

    Chain is for Ray of Enfeeblement, Enervation, Arcane-Reached buff spells & teleports... that sort of thing. With a spell list like yours, I use it often.

    Order is more or less a matter of taste. But I wouldn't take heighten until 6th level. If that early.

    If you can tweak levels you've already taken, it'll help in the long run to put Paragon 1 at level 1. The extra Skills will make everything easier. Especially turning Tumble, UMD or somesuch into a class skill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebeard View Post
    I always grab Rapid Metamagic for just those reasons. And because I find Familiars incredible with the Fighter-Wizard and Rogue/Wizard builds I usually play.
    Good to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebeard View Post
    Repeat requires enemies to stand still, more or less.
    Persist requires fixed range. That means it won't apply to much of anything on your list.
    OK, I think I'll probably pass on those.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebeard View Post
    Chain is for Ray of Enfeeblement, Enervation, Arcane-Reached buff spells & teleports... that sort of thing. With a spell list like yours, I use it often.
    Interesting. Yeah, I want Chain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebeard View Post
    Order is more or less a matter of taste. But I wouldn't take heighten until 6th level. If that early.
    Unfortunately, none of the Metamagics are particularly good this early but I have to take them early. I could take Spell Focus early instead, but I won't have a particularly large number of Enchantments or Illusions early. Still, I may be using Charm Person a lot early... Hmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebeard View Post
    If you can tweak levels you've already taken, it'll help in the long run to put Paragon 1 at level 1. The extra Skills will make everything easier. Especially turning Tumble, UMD or somesuch into a class skill.
    Heh, that's not going to happen.

    I was going to take Bluff as my Adaptive skill. I'm only getting 4 levels of Sorcerer, so I lose it as a class skill early - plus I'm getting 9 levels of Loremaster, who has UMD as a class skill anyway (a fact which I intend to take advantage of). But Tumble? First time anyone's mentioned it. It seems pretty good, except I at least hope to avoid being particularly close to enemies most of the time...

    EDIT: OK, so now my Feats look like this:

    1: Knowledge: Arcana Focus
    1: Enchantment Focus (Human)
    3: Silent Spell
    6: Chain Spell
    6: Heighten Spell (Paragon)
    9: Rapid Metamagic
    12: Quicken Spell
    14: Illusion Focus (Loremaster Secret)
    15: Spellcraft Focus
    18: ???

    Spell Penetration seems somewhat interesting. I have a handful of no-SR spells, but it might be nice to have.
    Last edited by DragoonWraith; 2009-04-18 at 07:19 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post
    BoED, MIC, PHB2, and Complete Warrior are all not available. The general requirement for non-Core stuff so far has been "can you find it online somewhere free?" - hence Rapid Metamagic, Reactive Counterspelling, and Arcane Thesis, all of which exist on WotC's site in some form (primarily little tables). Seeker's Chant came from CrystalKeep's spell lists. Chain Spell I can only find in forum posts, which means I might have trouble using it, but Feats are generally pretty simple so it might not be a problem.

    Spellsword's not in WotC's excerpt from Complete Warrior, which means that's not going to happen; classes are too complicated to attempt to use without the full details. Twilight doesn't appear in the PHB2 excerpt, and neither the Magic Item Compendium nor the Book of Exalted Deeds (I did get the right books for your abbreviations, right?) have any excerpts on the site, plus the availability of it would be up to the DM even if we were using those books. I could ask, but I'd somewhat doubt it.

    Further, Mithral, which is in the SRD, only reduces ASF by 10%. Chain Shirts have 20% ASF; I'm not really interested even in a 10% ASF. Still, it's an interesting option I wasn't aware of before. Now I'm considering a Light Mithral Shield or Mithral Buckler at some point... But the +1,000 gold is a bit beyond my means at this point. *shrug* But since I can get a shield and not an armor, Mage Armor looks even better now. Yes?
    It shouldn't be too hard to find the books at half-priced bookstore, since Monopolies of the Coast are strongly encouraging players to dump them at the 1/2 priced bookstore to get their 4e books...

    Persist is good when either paired with Reach (for static range), or for buffs like Shield (complete immunity to magic missiles and +4 shield bonus to AC). Repeat Spell is good when paired with Solid Fog or Black Tentacles to hold opponents in place, then Repeated Blastomancy to eliminate them with extreme prejeduce.

    Best defense? Mirror Image. Beats any Mage Armor with an ugly stick. And this is the single reason why you want Persist as well, because it is normally rounds/level, but with Persist, can last all day long. I'd rather have a flat 12.5% chance of being hit than jacking up my AC against certain attacks. It works against touch attacks (which mage armor doesn't), and is probably worth 40+ AC equivalent worth of odds of opponents missing.
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    It shouldn't be too hard to find the books at half-priced bookstore, since Monopolies of the Coast are strongly encouraging players to dump them at the 1/2 priced bookstore to get their 4e books...
    Mm, but rules of the game. We're playing online, so we're only using the things we can all see online.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Persist is good when either paired with Reach (for static range), or for buffs like Shield (complete immunity to magic missiles and +4 shield bonus to AC). Repeat Spell is good when paired with Solid Fog or Black Tentacles to hold opponents in place, then Repeated Blastomancy to eliminate them with extreme prejeduce.
    Hmm... interesting. I do have a bit of "you're not moving for a while". Good idea. Maybe I should stick Hold Person back in there...

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Best defense? Mirror Image. Beats any Mage Armor with an ugly stick. And this is the single reason why you want Persist as well, because it is normally rounds/level, but with Persist, can last all day long. I'd rather have a flat 12.5% chance of being hit than jacking up my AC against certain attacks. It works against touch attacks (which mage armor doesn't), and is probably worth 40+ AC equivalent worth of odds of opponents missing.
    When you put it that way... wow. OK. I had Mirror Image, then it found it's way off the list. I'll try to get it back.

    My 2nd level spells:
    Glitterdust (4)
    Detect Thoughts (5) (need for Loremaster)
    Scorching Ray (7) (only damage spell I have until Disintegrate)
    Invisibility (9)

    Thoughts?

    And would you then recommend this:
    Arcana Focus (1)
    Enchantment Focus (1, Human)
    Silent Spell (3)
    Heighten Spell (6)
    Repeat Spell (6, Paragon)
    Rapid Metamagic (9)
    Quicken Spell (12)
    Illusion Focus (14, Loremaster)
    Spellcraft Focus (15)
    Persist Spell (18)
    Last edited by DragoonWraith; 2009-04-19 at 11:45 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

    If you still want extend spell for your lower level spells, you can grab a rod of lesser extend for not too much gold.

    Silent spell may be great for the person who suggested it, but it depends on whether or not the DM is tossing silences at you all the time. I've also heard of a player who grabbed gloves of arrow snatching because their DMs had archers ready attacks to disrupt their spells all the time. Or a ring of freedom of movement and/or combat casting / skill focus (concentration) to stop grappling. I took wall of force because - among other reasons - I had a DM sending an anti-magic field apprentice at us every fight. Etc. Or casters that just plain dominate b/c their DMs don't know or use any anti-caster tactics at all. Ideally DMs would use them all and yet not go overboard on any one. What actually happens depends on your campaign.

    IMO keep empower spell at later levels (8++) since you can apply it to both ray of enfeeblement and scorching ray. False life is another handy spell to empower if you're looking for more applications. Especially if you're gonna get into melee for that irresistable dance. Or take another feat entirely. 2-3 spells is a bit limited. I just mean to take something you'll actually use often. If your DM does toss silences left and right, then ok take silent spell.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-04-19 at 09:48 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    If you still want extend spell for your lower level spells, you can grab a rod of lesser extend for not too much gold.
    Yeah, I'm not getting Extend.

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    Silent spell may be great for the person who suggested it, but it depends on whether or not the DM is tossing silences at you all the time. I've also heard of a player who grabbed gloves of arrow snatching because their DMs had archers ready attacks to disrupt their spells all the time. Or a ring of freedom of movement and/or combat casting / skill focus (concentration) to stop grappling. I took wall of force because - among other reasons - I had a DM sending an anti-magic field apprentice at us every fight. Etc. Or casters that just plain dominate b/c their DMs don't know or use any anti-caster tactics at all. Ideally DMs would use them all and yet not go overboard on any one. What actually happens depends on your campaign.
    Yeah, I have absolutely no idea what to expect in that area. But I was also thinking that it could be useful to apply to Charm Person for a more subtle Charm. Ahhh, I don't know what to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    IMO keep empower spell at later levels (8++) since you can apply it to both ray of enfeeblement and scorching ray. False life is another handy spell to empower if you're looking for more applications. Especially if you're gonna get into melee for that irresistable dance. Or take another feat entirely. 2-3 spells is a bit limited. I just mean to take something you'll actually use often. If your DM does toss silences left and right, then ok take silent spell.
    Well, see above for thoughts. Chain, Repeat, Persist are also contenders. As are Silent and Empower. But I wouldn't be going into melee for Irresistable Dance - I get Arcane Reach the level before Dance. At this point, Heighten and Quicken are the only ones that have been pretty consistently recommended... but neither's been suggested for level 3. Which is problematic, because it means I don't know which one to pick for level 3, and I need to make that decision very soon.

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    Default Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

    I would get Empower Spell as your 3rd level feat. It won't be useful for you until at level 6 (when you can Empower RoEnfeeblement), and from 8 on you can Empower Scorching Ray for a bit o' fiery death on command.

    Up to you though.
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    Default Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post
    Yeah, I'm not getting Extend.


    Well, see above for thoughts. Chain, Repeat, Persist are also contenders. As are Silent and Empower.
    Unfortunately Extend is a prereq for Persist, it's also not a bad choice for third level feat since you can use your second level slots to extend things like mage armour to all day sooner than you get the free cash to splash on a rod of lesser extend and long term buffs at level four without extend tend to crap out half way through the day.


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    Default Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

    Take the Planning Domain and you get Extend Spell for free.
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    Default Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    I would get Empower Spell as your 3rd level feat. It won't be useful for you until at level 6 (when you can Empower RoEnfeeblement), and from 8 on you can Empower Scorching Ray for a bit o' fiery death on command.

    Up to you though.
    Quote Originally Posted by mostlyharmful View Post
    Unfortunately Extend is a prereq for Persist, it's also not a bad choice for third level feat since you can use your second level slots to extend things like mage armour to all day sooner than you get the free cash to splash on a rod of lesser extend and long term buffs at level four without extend tend to crap out half way through the day.
    Ah, so many choices! My current feeling is that "sort of" like Persist, and I "sort of" like Extend, but... not an awful lot. Empower/Chain/Repeat seems better than Extend/Persist/something, in general. I'm not a huge fan of getting Empower so early, though, either. Drr.

    But then Extend/Repeat/Persist seems good because I can hold things for so long and then make with the Repeating. Ah!

    Well, it will be a long time before I get the third Metamagic. Mostly, it seems to come down to Persist vs. Chain for me...

    But then I still kind of like Silent. Boo. Impossible to know if it's something I'm going to need often or never...

    Quote Originally Posted by Seffbasilisk View Post
    Take the Planning Domain and you get Extend Spell for free.
    Uh... how exactly am I taking any Domain as a Sorcerer?
    Last edited by DragoonWraith; 2009-04-19 at 04:51 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

    Twilight can be found online too, in Crystalkeep's Magic Weapons And Armor section, so don't discount it just yet. You'll still have to get approval for it, but it's an option at least.

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    Default Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

    Even without Silences being tossed about, Silent Spell is still very powerful to tandem with a form of Invisibility, because it lets you remain silent and unseen even during casting. With Greater Invisibility, you won't betray your presence with verbal components to make a Listen check to find your general area, so they don't even have a square to attack at 50% miss chance.

    This is also how you prevent the +5 bonus on Charms in a Hostile Situation. You move in while invisible, then Silent Charm Monster. Since he wasn't aware of your presence, he's not recognizing you as being hostile. Sure, you show up, but by that time, he's already your best friend, and who wouldn't want their best friend to show up?
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    Default Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Even without Silences being tossed about, Silent Spell is still very powerful to tandem with a form of Invisibility, because it lets you remain silent and unseen even during casting. With Greater Invisibility, you won't betray your presence with verbal components to make a Listen check to find your general area, so they don't even have a square to attack at 50% miss chance.

    This is also how you prevent the +5 bonus on Charms in a Hostile Situation. You move in while invisible, then Silent Charm Monster. Since he wasn't aware of your presence, he's not recognizing you as being hostile. Sure, you show up, but by that time, he's already your best friend, and who wouldn't want their best friend to show up?
    Yeah, this is the only reason I'm really interested in Silent Spell. It is so up this character's alley...

    Plus, my allies would not mind this at all... especially the Rogue. Greater or regular, do you think? If I get Greater (4th level spells: Solid Fog [8], Enervation [9], Black Tentacles [11], Charm Monster [13]; I'm thinking EBT), I can replace Invisibility on my 2nd level spell list with Mirror Image, which is nice. Considering Invisibility was coming at level 9 anyway... just getting Greater seems to make sense.
    Last edited by DragoonWraith; 2009-04-20 at 11:55 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post
    Yeah, this is the only reason I'm really interested in Silent Spell. It is so up this character's alley...

    Plus, my allies would not mind this at all... especially the Rogue. Greater or regular, do you think? If I get Greater (4th level spells: Solid Fog [8], Enervation [9], Black Tentacles [11], Charm Monster [13]; I'm thinking EBT), I can replace Invisibility on my 2nd level spell list with Mirror Image, which is nice. Considering Invisibility was coming at level 9 anyway... just getting Greater seems to make sense.
    Greater Invisibility combos very well with Persist, although you need Thesis or some other way to reduce SL to pull it off. It is flat out all day long invisibility, no matter how many hostile acts you can take. You are completely immune to any and all encounters that are not permanently seeing invisible, which is why I still point it out to you as an option. It really is strong with a LOT of different spells on your list.

    Definately go Greater. 2nd level has too many spells you are wanting, but there are fewer absolutely critical 4th level spells. Stoneskin is a trap, it costs too much to be worth adding as a Spell Known. Black Tentacles and Solid Fog are both very good, but you may want to choose one or the other, since they both do similar things. Dimension Door is handy, but Teleport is just next level, and you don't need them both. Confusion is a Save or Loose spell, but it is mind-affecting. Seriously, it might be right up your alley, though. Re-read it. Phantasmal Killer has TWO saves, AND is Mind-Affecting, so it has too many ways to NOT work. Enervation, however, is a MUST have.

    So you have Black Tentacles/Solid Fog, Enervation, and... confusion. You've still got another slot you can afford to throw Greater Invisibility into, and that way you don't get revealed when you start screwing people over. You can charm a whole encounter by yourself before having to reveal yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Greater Invisibility combos very well with Persist, although you need Thesis or some other way to reduce SL to pull it off. It is flat out all day long invisibility, no matter how many hostile acts you can take. You are completely immune to any and all encounters that are not permanently seeing invisible, which is why I still point it out to you as an option. It really is strong with a LOT of different spells on your list.
    The +2 CL would be somewhat wasted with Greater Invis, though. Metamagic Focus would probably be better.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Definately go Greater. 2nd level has too many spells you are wanting, but there are fewer absolutely critical 4th level spells. Stoneskin is a trap, it costs too much to be worth adding as a Spell Known. Black Tentacles and Solid Fog are both very good, but you may want to choose one or the other, since they both do similar things. Dimension Door is handy, but Teleport is just next level, and you don't need them both. Confusion is a Save or Loose spell, but it is mind-affecting. Seriously, it might be right up your alley, though. Re-read it. Phantasmal Killer has TWO saves, AND is Mind-Affecting, so it has too many ways to NOT work. Enervation, however, is a MUST have.

    So you have Black Tentacles/Solid Fog, Enervation, and... confusion. You've still got another slot you can afford to throw Greater Invisibility into, and that way you don't get revealed when you start screwing people over. You can charm a whole encounter by yourself before having to reveal yourself.
    OK, that was more or less the conclusion I had come to. I think ditching EBT makes more sense.

    On the subject of Teleport... How dumb would it be to not get it at 11, and wait til 14 for Greater Shadow Conjuration?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    You use material from the Plane of Shadow to shape quasi-real illusions of one or more creatures, objects, or forces. Shadow conjuration can mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning) or conjuration (creation) spell of 3rd level or lower.
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Teleport
    Conjuration (Teleportation)
    I'm afraid you're stuck on teleport. Based on the flavor text of shadow conjuration and shadow evocation, I'd question certain applications of shadow evocation like contingency as well. 'Cuz it's not a quazi-real shadow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    I'm afraid you're stuck on teleport. Based on the flavor text of shadow conjuration and shadow evocation, I'd question certain applications of shadow evocation like contingency as well. 'Cuz it's not a quazi-real shadow.
    Oh hey. Did not see that. Will have to double-check that there aren't Conjurations that I want then...

    At least Core RAW, Dimension Door, Teleport, Greater Teleport, and Teleport Object are the only Conj/Evoc spells (under the appropriate level) that I cannot shadow.
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    Calling, healing and teleportation are the other 3 kinds of conjuration. AFAIK, healing only applies to cure spells and the like.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    Calling, healing and teleportation are the other 3 kinds of conjuration. AFAIK, healing only applies to cure spells and the like.
    I just read the SRD's description of all of the Conjuration Sorc/Wiz spells; Healing does not appear on any of them. You are right about Calling, though - I had noticed that Gate has it, missed that (Lessar) Planar Binding also has it. So I won't be able to get those. Minor point there, though; I've mostly decided to avoid getting into much summoning. I do intend to try it out at some point, probably Malconvoker style, but not this character.

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    The biggest reason why you do not want Shadow Conjuration si because it allows SR and grants a Will save to spells that normally don't allow either one, making it much less useful.
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    That's... interesting. I assumed I wanted them for the versatility; the Focus in Illusion and high Cha, I was thinking, would mean that I could get past the Will saves most of the time... as for SR, really? I didn't realize that. Oh, I see... Does that mean SR comes into play twice for spells that allow it? Once for Shadow Conj/Evoc, and again for the spell? Ouch...

    But the really interesting thing is... I'm not sure I want any of those spells terribly much. Scorching Ray seems likely to do me for blasting until Disintegrate, and then I get Finger of Death... Forcecage and Grasping Hand look solid-ish but not amazing. Contingency I could simply get for real... Cloudkill and Acid Fog might have been somewhat useful but Solid Fog should do. Hmm. Though, getting Contingency when I could get Greater Shadow Evocation that would allow me to do so much more seems... desirable... I'd get Contingency earlier, but not massively... unless I got it with my first or second 5th spell, which I don't really want to do...

    I'm not even sure I'd know what to do with Contingency if I had it, anyway...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post
    That's... interesting. I assumed I wanted them for the versatility; the Focus in Illusion and high Cha, I was thinking, would mean that I could get past the Will saves most of the time... as for SR, really? I didn't realize that. Oh, I see... Does that mean SR comes into play twice for spells that allow it? Once for Shadow Conj/Evoc, and again for the spell? Ouch...

    But the really interesting thing is... I'm not sure I want any of those spells terribly much. Scorching Ray seems likely to do me for blasting until Disintegrate, and then I get Finger of Death... Forcecage and Grasping Hand look solid-ish but not amazing. Contingency I could simply get for real... Cloudkill and Acid Fog might have been somewhat useful but Solid Fog should do. Hmm. Though, getting Contingency when I could get Greater Shadow Evocation that would allow me to do so much more seems... desirable... I'd get Contingency earlier, but not massively... unless I got it with my first or second 5th spell, which I don't really want to do...

    I'm not even sure I'd know what to do with Contingency if I had it, anyway...
    The standard powergame tactic is Contingency Celerity, which grants you a free standard action. This is generally used to cast the spell you need to get out of the trouble which triggered the contingency.

    Spells like Solid Fog don't allow a save, and don't permit SR to interfere... with Shadow Conjuration, they would. It makes a "No Save, you just suck" spell into a "Will save or suck, but only in a limited area", which makes it worse than Slow. So you blow a 7th level spell (Greater Shadow Conjuration) to produce a 4th level effect (solid fog) that is nerfed to the point where it would be better to cast a 3rd level spell (Slow). How is that an effective use of magic?

    Besides, 7th level has Mordikain's Magnificent Mansion Love Shack. It's like Rope Trick's bigger brother without the hassle of having to shinny up a rope, and with efficient staff that comes entailed with the property! While not directly combat effective, it gives you a 'reset button' on your spells. When you run low, pop your MMM and take a nap, then come back out refreshed and renewed for the next day of murder and mayhem.

    Greater Teleport is also a 7th level spell, and one you should 'trade up' for.

    Forcecage is a trap. It costs 1500 gp per casting. Use Greater Shadow Evocation instead. While it grants a Will save (if he makes the save, the forcecage vanishes) it doesn't cost components, and like you said... with the sky-high saves on your illusion spells, it's not going to be easy to make.

    Prismatic Spray is another good one, since you are a Sorcerer and not a Wizard who banned Evocation. Roll higher than a 3 and it's a Save or Loose effect. Roll an 8 and it could be TWO Save or Loose effects. In a Cone-shaped burst. Cone of LOSE!

    Finger of Death and Reverse Gravity are also nice 7th level spells to have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    The standard powergame tactic is Contingency Celerity, which grants you a free standard action. This is generally used to cast the spell you need to get out of the trouble which triggered the contingency.
    Non-SRD, can't use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Spells like Solid Fog don't allow a save, and don't permit SR to interfere... with Shadow Conjuration, they would. It makes a "No Save, you just suck" spell into a "Will save or suck, but only in a limited area", which makes it worse than Slow. So you blow a 7th level spell (Greater Shadow Conjuration) to produce a 4th level effect (solid fog) that is nerfed to the point where it would be better to cast a 3rd level spell (Slow). How is that an effective use of magic?
    Well, I actually know Solid Fog, and wouldn't Shadow that. I was talking about Acid Fog, a level 6 spell. Still, point taken. Also, looking at the list... I don't see a lot of Conjuration spells I'd like to have that I don't already know anyway. So Greater Shadow Conjuration is probably out.

    Greater Shadow Evocation... It would mean losing a 5th-level spell if I wanted Contingency. Celerity's out, but that doesn't mean I won't want some Contingency. If I ditched Teleport and got Greater Teleport (see below), then I could get Contingency there...

    As for the 8th level spell replacing it, Greater Shout and Sunburst seem the most interesting to me. Probably Sunburst. Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Besides, 7th level has Mordikain's Magnificent Mansion Love Shack. It's like Rope Trick's bigger brother without the hassle of having to shinny up a rope, and with efficient staff that comes entailed with the property! While not directly combat effective, it gives you a 'reset button' on your spells. When you run low, pop your MMM and take a nap, then come back out refreshed and renewed for the next day of murder and mayhem.
    Hmm... Possibly useful. I don't see much point to the servants, though, to be honest. Rope Trick could offer me about as much at CL 9... and I wasn't even planning on getting Rope Trick. The necessity of it is determined almost entirely by how hard the DM makes it for us to get a night's rest, of which there's no way of knowing...

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Greater Teleport is also a 7th level spell, and one you should 'trade up' for.
    Greater Teleportation seems like a pretty obvious choice, but I already have Teleport, don't want both, and am not taking any extra levels of Sorcerer with which to forget things. I was planning on Teleport at 11 and couldn't get Greater Teleport til 14. Is it worth waiting three levels for Greater?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Forcecage is a trap. It costs 1500 gp per casting. Use Greater Shadow Evocation instead. While it grants a Will save (if he makes the save, the forcecage vanishes) it doesn't cost components, and like you said... with the sky-high saves on your illusion spells, it's not going to be easy to make.

    Prismatic Spray is another good one, since you are a Sorcerer and not a Wizard who banned Evocation. Roll higher than a 3 and it's a Save or Loose effect. Roll an 8 and it could be TWO Save or Loose effects. In a Cone-shaped burst. Cone of LOSE!

    Finger of Death and Reverse Gravity are also nice 7th level spells to have.
    I have Finger of Death and Reverse Gravity. Rev Grav is nice because it's no-SR; Finger of Death because it's die or damage, which I like.

    Issues with Forcecage are noted.

    Prismatic Spray... I have a fair number of save-or-loses. And a fair number of no-save you-sucks. Is there any particular reason why that one is better? Three of those are "just" damage, two of them kill any loot the enemy may have had... etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post
    Non-SRD, can't use it.


    Well, I actually know Solid Fog, and wouldn't Shadow that. I was talking about Acid Fog, a level 6 spell. Still, point taken. Also, looking at the list... I don't see a lot of Conjuration spells I'd like to have that I don't already know anyway. So Greater Shadow Conjuration is probably out.

    Greater Shadow Evocation... It would mean losing a 5th-level spell if I wanted Contingency. Celerity's out, but that doesn't mean I won't want some Contingency. If I ditched Teleport and got Greater Teleport (see below), then I could get Contingency there...
    Well, you could get DimDoor at 4th level, skip Teleport, then go straight for Greater Teleport. It's worth the slot due to a lack of error chance.

    As for the 8th level spell replacing it, Greater Shout and Sunburst seem the most interesting to me. Probably Sunburst. Thoughts?
    Greater Prying Eyes. It's True Sight... without components... and dozens of little spies running around and telling you exactly what is going to come up.

    Greater Shadow Evocation. For mimicing Forcecage, Contingency, Force Wall, or any other Evocation-type spell you may want.

    Mind Blank. If you get ANY 8th level, get this one. Immunity to mind-affecting and scrying. If you can get a way to cheapen Chain Spell down to a +1 SL, you can chain it to your entire party as well.

    Dimensional Lock. Nothing is more annoying than your opponent teleporting away, laughing at you, only to return and kill you in your sleep, or when otherwise preoccupied. Heck, I remember one nasty critter decided to port out, then scry the party from a distance. When we were engaged in a fight for our lives, he teleported in right behind us and started ripping us from a different direction. Ouch. Also, usable while Time Stopped (since it is area effect), to combo with Forcecage and Cloudkill for a very obnoxious combo.

    Telekenetic Sphere. Yea, a lot of people overlook this, but it is one of the most valuable defensive spells in the game. Simply drop it down on yourself, and move around to wherever you need to be. It doesn't block Line of Sight, so you can continue casting through it, although you are immune to physical damage.

    Polymorph Any Object. Polycheeze at its worst. Turn a Dragon into a Lizard. Permanently. Or, turn yourself into something suitably annoying. One of my favorite combos is PAO the ground underneath an opponent into Lava. 20d6/round, and drop a Forcecage on top to cap it off so he can't get out.


    Hmm... Possibly useful. I don't see much point to the servants, though, to be honest. Rope Trick could offer me about as much at CL 9... and I wasn't even planning on getting Rope Trick. The necessity of it is determined almost entirely by how hard the DM makes it for us to get a night's rest, of which there's no way of knowing...
    Basically, the servants and the food are there gratis. You get your rest, a back massage, the kinks worked out of your shoulder, and a full 9 course banquet, while waited on hand and foot by invisible servants. Talk about standards of living!

    Greater Teleportation seems like a pretty obvious choice, but I already have Teleport, don't want both, and am not taking any extra levels of Sorcerer with which to forget things. I was planning on Teleport at 11 and couldn't get Greater Teleport til 14. Is it worth waiting three levels for Greater?
    If you spent a 4th level spell on Dimension Door, then probably. Explain to the party why you want to wait for Greater, and why you can't trade out Teleport for Greater when you gain 7th level spells.

    I have Finger of Death and Reverse Gravity. Rev Grav is nice because it's no-SR; Finger of Death because it's die or damage, which I like.
    Finger of Death also does not affect some things, because it is a death effect. Any cleric able to cast 4th level spells will yawn in your face, being completely immune thanks to Death Ward. Undead will thank you for casting it on them.

    Prismatic Spray... I have a fair number of save-or-loses. And a fair number of no-save you-sucks. Is there any particular reason why that one is better? Three of those are "just" damage, two of them kill any loot the enemy may have had... etc.
    It's a fun spell, because it is an area effect Save or either Damage or Dead. It's your only Area Effect Save or Dead that doesn't cost a BUNCH in diamond dust. Plus, it looks cool. Still, not really a 'must have', you've got to have your other bases covered as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Well, you could get DimDoor at 4th level, skip Teleport, then go straight for Greater Teleport. It's worth the slot due to a lack of error chance.
    Ah, not a bad idea... but not sure which 4th level spell I'd ditch. I'm getting Solid Fog, Enervation, Greater Invisibility, and Charm Monster. The first two are extremely good, the third you recommended yourself and I like having, and the fourth is just appropriate to the character.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Greater Prying Eyes. It's True Sight... without components... and dozens of little spies running around and telling you exactly what is going to come up.
    I had certainly considered that. Just sort of frustrating to get another Divination spell when I already have three I don't really want.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Greater Shadow Evocation. For mimicing Forcecage, Contingency, Force Wall, or any other Evocation-type spell you may want.
    See, this is what I meant, this is why I was getting it to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Mind Blank. If you get ANY 8th level, get this one. Immunity to mind-affecting and scrying. If you can get a way to cheapen Chain Spell down to a +1 SL, you can chain it to your entire party as well.
    I know this, don't worry, I've got it. But Chain Spell at +1 isn't going to happen.

    The Real Question is when. Currently I'm getting it on level 20, at which point it almost doesn't matter because I don't imagine we'll be playing much at level 20. Irresistable Dance and (currently) Greater Shadow Evocation are my other two 8th spells (at 19 and 17, respectively).

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Dimensional Lock. Nothing is more annoying than your opponent teleporting away, laughing at you, only to return and kill you in your sleep, or when otherwise preoccupied. Heck, I remember one nasty critter decided to port out, then scry the party from a distance. When we were engaged in a fight for our lives, he teleported in right behind us and started ripping us from a different direction. Ouch. Also, usable while Time Stopped (since it is area effect), to combo with Forcecage and Cloudkill for a very obnoxious combo.
    Mm... powerful, if I have a lot of teleporting foes. Difficult to gauge. Considering I only get three 8th-level spells...

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Telekenetic Sphere. Yea, a lot of people overlook this, but it is one of the most valuable defensive spells in the game. Simply drop it down on yourself, and move around to wherever you need to be. It doesn't block Line of Sight, so you can continue casting through it, although you are immune to physical damage.
    Hm... this one's really cool. I like the idea of floating myself around. Heh.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Polymorph Any Object. Polycheeze at its worst. Turn a Dragon into a Lizard. Permanently. Or, turn yourself into something suitably annoying. One of my favorite combos is PAO the ground underneath an opponent into Lava. 20d6/round, and drop a Forcecage on top to cap it off so he can't get out.
    Yeah... I don't really want to go there. I haven't taken any of the morph spells and I'm pretty much avoiding it. Disguise or Alter Self would be nice, but I have other things to do with those spell slots.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Basically, the servants and the food are there gratis. You get your rest, a back massage, the kinks worked out of your shoulder, and a full 9 course banquet, while waited on hand and foot by invisible servants. Talk about standards of living!
    Heh, considering I have a trait that gives -2 to Survival and prevents me from using it as an untrained skill, it may be fitting. But I'm also not playing a character who is overly interested in material wealth or luxury. He's lived his life as lower-middle class but comfortably because he doesn't have overly expensive taste (and because he got the money he had as a con-artist, which means he didn't really have to work for it).

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    If you spent a 4th level spell on Dimension Door, then probably. Explain to the party why you want to wait for Greater, and why you can't trade out Teleport for Greater when you gain 7th level spells.
    Oh, I'm sure they'll be cool with whatever. It's a pretty casual group.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Finger of Death also does not affect some things, because it is a death effect. Any cleric able to cast 4th level spells will yawn in your face, being completely immune thanks to Death Ward. Undead will thank you for casting it on them.
    I'm aware of the Undead, but I assumed those immune to Death effects would still take the damage (as if they had saved). Is this incorrect?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    It's a fun spell, because it is an area effect Save or either Damage or Dead. It's your only Area Effect Save or Dead that doesn't cost a BUNCH in diamond dust. Plus, it looks cool. Still, not really a 'must have', you've got to have your other bases covered as well.
    Ah, AOE. Had not considered that. Plus rolling is fun. Hmm, hmm, hmm. Not a bad idea, by any means. I could use more AOE. Especially since I am going for Mastery of Shaping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post
    Ah, not a bad idea... but not sure which 4th level spell I'd ditch. I'm getting Solid Fog, Enervation, Greater Invisibility, and Charm Monster. The first two are extremely good, the third you recommended yourself and I like having, and the fourth is just appropriate to the character.
    I'd skip the Charm Monster, personally, but that's just my taste. Those are all really solid spells, I don't know what to suggest here.


    I had certainly considered that. Just sort of frustrating to get another Divination spell when I already have three I don't really want.
    Yea, qualifying for Loremaster as a Sorcerer really, REALLY sucks[/quote]

    The Real Question is when. Currently I'm getting it on level 20, at which point it almost doesn't matter because I don't imagine we'll be playing much at level 20. Irresistable Dance and (currently) Greater Shadow Evocation are my other two 8th spells (at 19 and 17, respectively).
    When will you need to be immune to mind-affecting and scrying? If you find your party (or any weak-willed people in the party) are getting hit a lot by charms, fears, confusions, and the like... grab this FIRST. Drop it on the Party Tank, who normally has a low Will save, and you won't have to worry about your buddy turning into another opponent.


    Mm... powerful, if I have a lot of teleporting foes. Difficult to gauge. Considering I only get three 8th-level spells...
    Again, this is one of those spells that you need to get the feel of your GM to determine use. If you find opponents teleporting, using Ethereal or Astral to dodge, or something of that nature, then it is worth it. Keep in mind, friendly fire... it will keep YOU from teleporting in that area as well.

    Hm... this one's really cool. I like the idea of floating myself around. Heh.
    If you have any friends who play WoW, just say "Hey, could be worse... at least I'm not a Ret Pally". They'll get it. And laugh. And probably throw dice or books at you.

    Yeah... I don't really want to go there. I haven't taken any of the morph spells and I'm pretty much avoiding it. Disguise or Alter Self would be nice, but I have other things to do with those spell slots.
    Don't blame you, but I thought I'd mention it.

    Heh, considering I have a trait that gives -2 to Survival and prevents me from using it as an untrained skill, it may be fitting. But I'm also not playing a character who is overly interested in material wealth or luxury. He's lived his life as lower-middle class but comfortably because he doesn't have overly expensive taste (and because he got the money he had as a con-artist, which means he didn't really have to work for it).
    Consider it this way: You aren't living beyond your means, you are merely providing yourself those creature comforts that you simply do not wish to do without.

    I'm aware of the Undead, but I assumed those immune to Death effects would still take the damage (as if they had saved). Is this incorrect?
    Nope, the damage is Negative Energy, so they're immune to that as well. Also makes them immune to Enervation. To kill Clerics quickly, I highly suggest Solid Fog and point your meat shield/charmed or dominated guy in it's direction. Failing that, area saturation with blastomancy. Their reflex save generally sucks, this is one of those few situations in which blasting works. In other words, Greater Shadow Evocation for Delayed Blast Fireball. It's still 80% 'real' if he makes his Will save.

    Ah, AOE. Had not considered that. Plus rolling is fun. Hmm, hmm, hmm. Not a bad idea, by any means. I could use more AOE. Especially since I am going for Mastery of Shaping.
    Yea, it's all kind of cracktackular good with Mastery of Shaping...
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2009-04-24 at 09:39 PM.
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