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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    I'd skip the Charm Monster, personally, but that's just my taste. Those are all really solid spells, I don't know what to suggest here.
    That was pretty much the conclusion I came to. But I feel as if convincing most monsters to do what I want shouldn't be hard, so Charm should be useful. Plus, like I said... I'm Focusing in Enchantment. I know, mind-immune stuff becomes a problem later, but that's what my illusion and conjuration are for.


    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Yea, qualifying for Loremaster as a Sorcerer really, REALLY sucks
    It really wasn't that bad. I got a 0th-level spell that's awful (Seeker's Chant), another that is solid but I wasn't planning on getting (Detect Magic), a 1st level that's good but I might have chosen something else for (True Sight), and a 3rd that, again, is okay but not my top choice (Arcane Sight). The Skills were the big problem - I had to take Paragon to get those, which costs a caster level. But still... pure-Sorc bored me.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    When will you need to be immune to mind-affecting and scrying? If you find your party (or any weak-willed people in the party) are getting hit a lot by charms, fears, confusions, and the like... grab this FIRST. Drop it on the Party Tank, who normally has a low Will save, and you won't have to worry about your buddy turning into another opponent.

    Again, this is one of those spells that you need to get the feel of your GM to determine use. If you find opponents teleporting, using Ethereal or Astral to dodge, or something of that nature, then it is worth it. Keep in mind, friendly fire... it will keep YOU from teleporting in that area as well.
    Heh, obvious, I should have figured that out. OK, will keep it in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    If you have any friends who play WoW, just say "Hey, could be worse... at least I'm not a Ret Pally". They'll get it. And laugh. And probably throw dice or books at you.
    Heh, they'd have a hard time throwing anything at me (I'm at least 2000 miles from the nearest one), but I don't think any of them play WoW.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Don't blame you, but I thought I'd mention it.
    Info is always good.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Consider it this way: You aren't living beyond your means, you are merely providing yourself those creature comforts that you simply do not wish to do without.
    Oh, I know. I just... I dunno, doesn't seem right for the character. Hiring servants (or creating them through magical effort) would strike him as silly: why pay for someone to do something that you can convince them to do for free? That's how he operates.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Nope, the damage is Negative Energy, so they're immune to that as well. Also makes them immune to Enervation. To kill Clerics quickly, I highly suggest Solid Fog and point your meat shield/charmed or dominated guy in it's direction. Failing that, area saturation with blastomancy. Their reflex save generally sucks, this is one of those few situations in which blasting works. In other words, Greater Shadow Evocation for Delayed Blast Fireball. It's still 80% 'real' if he makes his Will save.
    Right. So Greater Shadow Evocation is still a good idea. Check.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Yea, it's all kind of cracktackular good with Mastery of Shaping...
    Hehe.

    Well, I am still looking at Greater Shadow Evocation, Greater Prying Eyes, Telekinetic Sphere, Mind Blank, Color Spray, and Irresistable Dance for my three 8th-level spell slots. Tough call.
    Last edited by DragoonWraith; 2009-04-24 at 10:18 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post
    That was pretty much the conclusion I came to. But I feel as if convincing most monsters to do what I want shouldn't be hard, so Charm should be useful. Plus, like I said... I'm Focusing in Enchantment. I know, mind-immune stuff becomes a problem later, but that's what my illusion and conjuration are for.
    Then just settle for Teleport, and don't bother with Greater

    It really wasn't that bad. I got a 0th-level spell that's awful (Seeker's Chant), another that is solid but I wasn't planning on getting (Detect Magic), a 1st level that's good but I might have chosen something else for (True Sight), and a 3rd that, again, is okay but not my top choice (Arcane Sight). The Skills were the big problem - I had to take Paragon to get those, which costs a caster level. But still... pure-Sorc bored me.
    Yea, the knowledge skill prerequsites hurt hard.

    Are you talking True Strike or True Seeing the 6th level spell? True Strike is pretty darn nifty, particularly when paired with Enervation. Detect Secret Doors can short-circuit a dungeon-run when used properly, and entirely in fitting with your character.

    Heh, obvious, I should have figured that out. OK, will keep it in mind.


    Heh, they'd have a hard time throwing anything at me (I'm at least 2000 miles from the nearest one), but I don't think any of them play WoW.
    To let you in on the joke, A Paladin in WoW is also derogatorily called a 'Bubble Boy', due to a spell they have which makes them temporarily immune. Generally, you will hear about 'bubble hearth', which is drop immunity, then use the Hearthstone to gate back to their home town before the immunity wears off.

    Info is always good.


    Oh, I know. I just... I dunno, doesn't seem right for the character. Hiring servants (or creating them through magical effort) would strike him as silly: why pay for someone to do something that you can convince them to do for free? That's how he operates.
    Cost? What cost? There's no expensive material component cost to cast MMM... still, I suppose if it isn't in character, it is a spell you can afford to miss.

    Yet another use for Greater Shadow Evocation is to mimic Tiny Hut, which should suffice for your needs.


    Right. So Greater Shadow Evocation is still a good idea. Check.
    Yea, it's all kinds of fun to play with an entire college with a single spell.


    Hehe.

    Well, I am still looking at Greater Shadow Evocation, Greater Prying Eyes, Telekinetic Sphere, Mind Blank, Color Spray, and Irresistable Dance for my three 8th-level spell slots. Tough call.
    Okay, let's examine these spells

    Greater Prying Eyes = True Seeing + disposable scouts. You will never fall for the 'illusionary floor over a pit' trick, or 'the real door is an illusion of a wall, and the thing that looks like a door is really an illusion over a nasty trap' trick. Very nice utility, and with a duration of Hours/level, can be left up all day long

    Telekenetic Sphere is good to 'bubble' with and protect yourself. While nifty looking, you've probably got better ways of protecting yourself physically in a fight. While it does have utility to 'bubble' an ally in trouble, this is a spell you can probably afford to skip if you had to.

    Mind Blank is very useful, not only for you but for your party. Cast it on the party members with low Will saves, or even the entire party if you have enough spell slots. The immunity to scrying makes it particularly handy if the party is trying to ambush a caster. However, if you aren't facing a lot of mind-affecting stuff, it may be safely skipped over.

    Irresistable Dance is a no-save-screwed, but it requires Touch. Unless you plan on getting Arcane Reach from Archmage, this spell can put you in more danger than it can get you out of. It's a very good spell, but you need to combo it with reach to be able to avoid killing yourself trying to get it off.

    Color Spray is an Area Effect Save or Possibly Dead. With Mastery of Shaping, you have a good chance at killing (or at least seriously inconveniencing) several opponents without harming your allies in the process.

    So, which ones you take will depend on which ones you plan on using or need to use. If you face a lot of mind-affecting or opponents who like to watch you on the Crystal Ball Network, then Mind Blank is your friend, otherwise not so much. If you can get some kind of Reach on Irresistable Dance, then you've got a no-save-just-suck spell which will be a staple of your repitoire, otherwise it's too dangerous to use. Greater Prying Eyes is just plain useful and utility. The little floating eyeballs can be used for all kinds of non-combat stuff, and nothing says you cannot cast Invisibility on the eyes to have invisible scouts with True Seeing on them floating about...
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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Then just settle for Teleport, and don't bother with Greater
    Sad bit is, I don't really feel much need for the 7th-level spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Yea, the knowledge skill prerequsites hurt hard.
    Yup.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Are you talking True Strike or True Seeing the 6th level spell? True Strike is pretty darn nifty, particularly when paired with Enervation. Detect Secret Doors can short-circuit a dungeon-run when used properly, and entirely in fitting with your character.
    Well, I'm taking True Strike... as a 1st-level spell. True Seeing I want to take, but again, so limited. Detect Secret Doors is a maybe; I'd have to give up Mage Armor or Shield (depending on the status of Twilight enhancements for the game) for it, which is leaving me perhaps more squishy than I'd like...

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    To let you in on the joke, A Paladin in WoW is also derogatorily called a 'Bubble Boy', due to a spell they have which makes them temporarily immune. Generally, you will hear about 'bubble hearth', which is drop immunity, then use the Hearthstone to gate back to their home town before the immunity wears off.
    Aha.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Cost? What cost? There's no expensive material component cost to cast MMM... still, I suppose if it isn't in character, it is a spell you can afford to miss.
    Cost of the effort to learn it, mostly.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Yet another use for Greater Shadow Evocation is to mimic Tiny Hut, which should suffice for your needs.
    Yup.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Yea, it's all kinds of fun to play with an entire college with a single spell.
    Think that's the call.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Okay, let's examine these spells

    Greater Prying Eyes = True Seeing + disposable scouts. You will never fall for the 'illusionary floor over a pit' trick, or 'the real door is an illusion of a wall, and the thing that looks like a door is really an illusion over a nasty trap' trick. Very nice utility, and with a duration of Hours/level, can be left up all day long
    This is really solid.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Telekenetic Sphere is good to 'bubble' with and protect yourself. While nifty looking, you've probably got better ways of protecting yourself physically in a fight. While it does have utility to 'bubble' an ally in trouble, this is a spell you can probably afford to skip if you had to.
    This would be so much fun, but yeah, doesn't fit.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Mind Blank is very useful, not only for you but for your party. Cast it on the party members with low Will saves, or even the entire party if you have enough spell slots. The immunity to scrying makes it particularly handy if the party is trying to ambush a caster. However, if you aren't facing a lot of mind-affecting stuff, it may be safely skipped over.
    Aye. Only can cast six 8th-level spells per day, though, so getting the entire party with it would require all but one...

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Irresistable Dance is a no-save-screwed, but it requires Touch. Unless you plan on getting Arcane Reach from Archmage, this spell can put you in more danger than it can get you out of. It's a very good spell, but you need to combo it with reach to be able to avoid killing yourself trying to get it off.
    Will have Arcane Reach at that point. If I don't get Irresistable Touch, in fact, it's probably not worth getting Arcane Reach.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Color Spray is an Area Effect Save or Possibly Dead. With Mastery of Shaping, you have a good chance at killing (or at least seriously inconveniencing) several opponents without harming your allies in the process.
    Mm, without it I'm not sure Mastery of Shaping is worth it, either. Don't have a lot of area effect things...

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    So, which ones you take will depend on which ones you plan on using or need to use. If you face a lot of mind-affecting or opponents who like to watch you on the Crystal Ball Network, then Mind Blank is your friend, otherwise not so much. If you can get some kind of Reach on Irresistable Dance, then you've got a no-save-just-suck spell which will be a staple of your repitoire, otherwise it's too dangerous to use. Greater Prying Eyes is just plain useful and utility. The little floating eyeballs can be used for all kinds of non-combat stuff, and nothing says you cannot cast Invisibility on the eyes to have invisible scouts with True Seeing on them floating about...
    Considering I don't have True Seeing myself (at least, it's not currently on the list), Greater Prying Eyes are quite tempting. Same with Color Spray, I could use an AoE. But Irresistable Dance is so strong, and losing Greater Shadow Evocation causes me more problems...



    By the way, as an aside... my character sucks at spells. He's cast Grease twice - and gotten two natural 1's. WTF.

    Bluffing, on the other hand, he's rather good at. Talked a random NPC on the street out of 134 gp, convinced another that his sister (who doesn't exist) was dying on the other side of town, convinced a Paladin Half-Orc that he was on her side...
    Last edited by DragoonWraith; 2009-04-26 at 01:39 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

    Well, I'm taking True Strike... as a 1st-level spell. True Seeing I want to take, but again, so limited. Detect Secret Doors is a maybe; I'd have to give up Mage Armor or Shield (depending on the status of Twilight enhancements for the game) for it, which is leaving me perhaps more squishy than I'd like...
    You misunderstand. I was talking about taking Detect Secret Doors *INSTEAD* of True Strike, as a Divination spell to be used as a prerequisite for Loremaster. Since you basically have to have 1 divination spell as a 1st level spell if you want to be able to qualify for Loremaster ASAP, you may as well make it one you can make more use out of if you aren't using True Strike.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
    All hail great Shneekeythulhu! Ia Ia Shneeky fthagn
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    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
    Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
    Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
    Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
    Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us

    My homebrew world in progress: Falcora

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

    Ah, I see what you mean. Hmm. Enfeeblement, Scorching, Finger of Death, and Irresistable Dance are my only attack spells requiring a Touch attack. I do have 14 Dex, so I'm not awful in that department. True Strike might not be worth it, I think you're right.

    Any thoughts on swapping Arcane Sight for something? It really seems like the biggest weakness in my list right now... Tongues and Clairaudience/Clairvoyance don't seem so great, either, though. Crystal Keep lists a few more 3rd Divinations, but most are rather specific to certain campaigns (Discern Shapechanger, where Shapechangers are prevalent, Detect Portal, in games with lots of Plane movement)... the only one that stands out as not awful is Lesser Telepathic Bond, but that's still pretty poor. Which is all a shame, since there are non-Divination 3rd spells that I would be quite interested in.
    Last edited by DragoonWraith; 2009-04-29 at 04:56 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post
    Ah, I see what you mean. Hmm. Enfeeblement, Scorching, Finger of Death, and Irresistable Dance are my only attack spells requiring a Touch attack. I do have 14 Dex, so I'm not awful in that department. True Strike might not be worth it, I think you're right.

    Any thoughts on swapping Arcane Sight for something? It really seems like the biggest weakness in my list right now... Tongues and Clairaudience/Clairvoyance don't seem so great, either, though. Crystal Keep lists a few more 3rd Divinations, but most are rather specific to certain campaigns (Discern Shapechanger, where Shapechangers are prevalent, Detect Portal, in games with lots of Plane movement)... the only one that stands out as not awful is Lesser Telepathic Bond, but that's still pretty poor. Which is all a shame, since there are non-Divination 3rd spells that I would be quite interested in.
    Tongues does, indeed, suck. Clairvoyance/audience is okay for scouting, but likewise nothing worth writing home about.

    Arcane Sight can be hella-abused. It's a personal spell, so it can be Persisted for all-day-long. This can let you spot invisible things (spot the aura from the invisible spell), be able to tell if something is a caster or not, and lets you get a general idea of what a magic item is with a Spellcraft check. Pretty darn useful, if ya ask me.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
    All hail great Shneekeythulhu! Ia Ia Shneeky fthagn
    Spoiler
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    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
    Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
    Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
    Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
    Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us

    My homebrew world in progress: Falcora

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: [3.5e] Newbie looking to play with magic

    Alright, I feel a bit better about that, then.

    Persist probably isn't going to happen. Mostly, I have to choose my Metamagic Feats early, and I just can't be too sure that I'll really want it... +6 is an awful lot. I can choose Persist at 18, but I'd have to get Extend early, and I don't want extend unless I'm also getting Persist, and I'm not really ready to make that decision.

    I'm thinking Silent, Chain, Heighten, Quicken, and Repeat, possibly Twin.

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