Erfworld 152 - tBfGK - 139

[dr pepper]

I suppose I can see things from Caesar's point of view: After all, there's a war going on and he doesn't have time to handle people with kid gloves.

Don't care. I wanted to see Caesar dead the first time he said "chickie" and my opinion hasn't changed.

[StClair]

I thought that was already covered by the Captain Jack reference.

I suppose you could interpret it that way (I did for a second, just for amusement). But hoyay is so common now that sometimes it's more interesting to leave it out of a relationship.

It's overused, yes. To the point where some people (fans especially) seem to find it inconceivable that two people of any combination of genders can have a close relationship with deep trust, etc without sexual feelings being involved somehow.

[dr pepper]

Ok, now i'm confused. I got the "Captain Jack" reference. He's the lead character in Torchwood and he's notorious for his libido. Calling him "bi" would be an unwarrented restriction, he's been with creatures so alien, he not only couldn't tell what sex they were, he wouldn't understand the meaning of it.

What i don't understand are who the others are supposed to be.

[Midnight Roamer]

The chamber was left over from the previous eruption: it's only following the path of least resistance, the path it followed once before. But the natural world wasn't creating the pressure, or the volcano wouldn't have needed help to explode on its own. The spell had to create that pressure, or create low pressure in the rock above, in order to cause the magma to well up. It can't come up without it. Magma is under everything in the world, so usually magma does not well up and create volcanos. Magma needs something to help it along -- weakness above or strength below; otherwise, it would rise up everywhere all the time. The crust of the earth is thinner than an egg shell.

Well, there's some pretty confusing information in here, statements that are all factual, but not necessarily congruent. It is true that magma forms under low pressure conditions relative to surrounding rock. Your assertion that magma is everywhere, all the time, and the suggestion that the earth's crust is thinner than an eggshell are both true, but not congruent. The type of magma that forms under low pressure conditions in the mantle and crust is not the same as what is in the superheated outer core of the earth. One can say that the outer core is beneath everything, at all times, but one wouldn't be talking about the magma involved in volcanic eruptions. The implication of your post, that magma lies everywhere, beneath an eggshell-like layer of the earth's crust is untrue. Magma only forms in the crust and mantle under particular conditions, not everywhere. Molten rock in the outer core lie under the crust and mantle, which are far thicker than an eggshell by comparison.

But again, I'm really having problems with debates on the geological structure of erfworld. It may be that the duration of the eruption is governed by traditional geology as in the real world. It may also be that an uncroaked volcano lasts exactly x turns before becoming dormant. We simply do not know, and I look forward to seeing what the guys do with the volcano in the future.

[Midnight Roamer]

It's overused, yes. To the point where some people (fans especially) seem to find it inconceivable that two people of any combination of genders can have a close relationship with deep trust, etc without sexual feelings being involved somehow.

True, especially two guys. "You talked about your feelings? OMG are you two gay for each other?" Course, there's already been suggestions that Jillian and Vinnie are gonna end up in the sack together too, so cliche'.

[Kreistor]

But again, I'm really having problems with debates on the geological structure of erfworld. It may be that the duration of the eruption is governed by traditional geology as in the real world. It may also be that an uncroaked volcano lasts exactly x turns before becoming dormant. We simply do not know, and I look forward to seeing what the guys do with the volcano in the future.

Thank you. That leads into someting I wanted to talk about, but didn't think was appropraite from teh last post in this thread.

How does an author decide how a volcanic eruption occurs? Yes, Rob has the freedom to say, "This is Erfworld, so it doesn't have to be Earth real." But there's a problem with that. We readers need reference points. We don't know erfworld physics. We can't know how the reaction will be different without Rob telling us. And any deviation may be misinterpreted.

So it is always best to use real world reference points, and not fall back on the lazy support of "It's magical.".

Pete Abrams does Sluggy Freelance.He created an event where an electrical cord was used to shock someone hanging off the edge of a ship. Problem was, those of us that know electricity know the man on the rope is immune to the shock. Pete had really done some homework and thought he knew enough, but he was wrong, and a number of electrical engineers called him on it. So he had to fix things by inventing a different energy, which he apologized for on the forums. He wanted real science and wound up having to make it up.

That's what an author does: he studies. And in the face of limited time to study? You copy. It's happened one way before, so let's do it that way. Most won't know the details, so they won't know he copied, and those that do won't care, because they like accuracy.

I can't say which eruption Rob is copying here, and I doubt he'll show us much more to work off of. Mt. St. Helens and the Pompeii destrction by Vesuvius are good examples. MSH began with a large rockslide, then a pyroclastic flow and was followed by ash ejection. Vesuvius began with ash ejection and ended wiht a pyroclastic flow. We may not learn what eruption he used as a model, but I don't think he'd want to risk ire from geologists by making something up. It's so much easier to type "Vesuvius" into Wikipedia and using something accurate. It also allows your mind to work on real problems that you need creative solutions for.

So, yeah, I think this eruption will be earth accurate. It's easier, faster, and gains you more respect from readers that know the subject, losing nothing from the ones that will never know what you did.

[worfle]

That Jillian actually believed him, and attacked overrwhhelming strength regardless, backs a suicide attempt. The defenseless back-blade grip, covert attack, and angered grief all put this attack in the, "Send me to Ansom" school of thought.

Sorry, lurk usually, but I saw a lot of this in the last thread and I just thought I'd share with people that using a grip like Jillian did in the last comic is common for some knife fighters. Mostly for people using two knives, but I've seen some do it with one. My dad used to knife fight when he was younger (Mexico City has some very rough neighborhoods), and we talked about and watched a lot of weapons fighting when I was younger.

It isn't common, but it does happen. Just thought I'd point that out, because people seem to be taking it as a story choice, but I wouldn't be so sure.

*Edit* I think her attack was simply her way of showing grief. She has shown in the past to be thoughtless and her character is stated to use violence as a first solution. Plenty of people pound on the bearer of bad news, and she is a lot more psychotic than your average person. Plus she is being held captive. That doesn't scream "attempted-suicide" to me. It shows that she is already in a situation where she hates Caesar and he just gave her a "good" reason to act on that hate.

[chefsotero]

Sooo...
if Vinny= Captain Jack

...or am I thinking of the wrong Captain Jack?

I think this Cap. Jack is Jack Harkness from the dr. who's spinoff torchwood

[fendrin]

Thank you. That leads into someting I wanted to talk about, but didn't think was appropraite from teh last post in this thread.

How does an author decide how a volcanic eruption occurs? Yes, Rob has the freedom to say, "This is Erfworld, so it doesn't have to be Earth real." But there's a problem with that. We readers need reference points. We don't know erfworld physics. We can't know how the reaction will be different without Rob telling us. And any deviation may be misinterpreted.

So it is always best to use real world reference points, and not fall back on the lazy support of "It's magical.".

Pete Abrams does Sluggy Freelance.He created an event where an electrical cord was used to shock someone hanging off the edge of a ship. Problem was, those of us that know electricity know the man on the rope is immune to the shock. Pete had really done some homework and thought he knew enough, but he was wrong, and a number of electrical engineers called him on it. So he had to fix things by inventing a different energy, which he apologized for on the forums. He wanted real science and wound up having to make it up.

That's what an author does: he studies. And in the face of limited time to study? You copy. It's happened one way before, so let's do it that way. Most won't know the details, so they won't know he copied, and those that do won't care, because they like accuracy.

I can't say which eruption Rob is copying here, and I doubt he'll show us much more to work off of. Mt. St. Helens and the Pompeii destrction by Vesuvius are good examples. MSH began with a large rockslide, then a pyroclastic flow and was followed by ash ejection. Vesuvius began with ash ejection and ended wiht a pyroclastic flow. We may not learn what eruption he used as a model, but I don't think he'd want to risk ire from geologists by making something up. It's so much easier to type "Vesuvius" into Wikipedia and using something accurate. It also allows your mind to work on real problems that you need creative solutions for.

So, yeah, I think this eruption will be earth accurate. It's easier, faster, and gains you more respect from readers that know the subject, losing nothing from the ones that will never know what you did.

On the other hand, we already know 'a wizard did it' as the saying goes. So really Rob can't do it wrong, whether based on a real eruption or not.

[Kreistor]

Sorry, lurk usually, but I saw a lot of this in the last thread and I just thought I'd share with people that using a grip like Jillian did in the last comic is common for some knife fighters. Mostly for people using two knives, but I've seen some do it with one. My dad used to knife fight when he was younger (Mexico City has some very rough neighborhoods), and we talked about and watched a lot of weapons fighting when I was younger.

Oh, I agree with you and your dad, under the specific situation of defending against a knife. But we're talking Erfworld here: Jillian may have to defend againts a huge two-hander. When talking about a weak defense, I'm talking about in wider circumstances than just knife on knife. (Love to know if she's planning on stabbing that dwagon to free her other arm, or thinking she can block Manpower.)

Against a light slash with no mass behind it, the back-blade is fine. You pretty much need to dodge or redirect a thrust anyway, so form doesn't matter. But Jillian is fighting an unarmed opponent anyway.

But let's put a sword in Caesar's hand. It has mass and momentum. When you block even a slash, your wrist breaks into the forearm, driving your own blade into your arm. Sure, edge out, but that point is still capable of cutting you.

All the power in your wrist is designed to curl the hand inwards: it's about 4x more poweful than pulling back on the wrist. So with the back-blade grip, you've got the weakest strength holding the blade in position. (I have a 20lb weight here. I can curl it easily 8 times and can probably push double that if I want to strain. Flip my hand over, and try to lift it up? One lift, and maybe a second. Careful what you use if you try this at home. Best to stop in at a sports store, and try it there pretending to shop. Anyway, you can still use it to deflect the blow with, but the backblade can't block. Really, forward it couldn't block, either. Blade has no guard. Really need a guard for front blade grip defense.

[Kreistor]

The type of magma that forms under low pressure conditions in the mantle and crust is not the same as what is in the superheated outer core of the earth.

Really? I don't disbelieve you, but I'd like some reference. I used Wikipedia for everything... just type in Mt. St. Helens, Yellowstone, and Vesuvius. Backed that up with some stuff from TV (like Supervolcano about Yellowstone, which was on this very night in Canada on Discovery. No kidding! Seen it before, though.) The image above shows the magma from MSH coming directly from the upper mantle. Now, that might not be right. Sure, it might come from that mantle heating NA plate rocks, and that wells up. But I'm guessing. Can you clarify and source me?

One can say that the outer core is beneath everything, at all times, but one wouldn't be talking about the magma involved in volcanic eruptions.

Well, MSH or Vesuvius, maybe not. But the Iceland and sub-Atlantic eruptions, where the plates are separating? You'd find it hard to convince me that wasn't coming straight up from the mantle. But hey, reference me, please. I love to learn.

[Fishman]

I'm surprised no one else has commented on this; bloodless carnage was one of the defining characteristics of Erfworld, going with the whole "for kids" theme. I'd think that the TVs would have to first CREATE blood in their victims in order to drink it!

It could be bloodless blood drinking. After all, when vampires drink blood, there is typically not splurching gushing wounds everywhere, they just clamp on, make holes, and drink. The blood exists, it simply doesn't gush everywhere in a decidedly non-kid-safe way.

[teratorn]

In the illustration from one of the klogs Vinny also looked like he had been affected by Jaclyn's death.

Jillian had 4 peeps involved in this battle, at least two survived. There must be 4 or 5 nearby, the ones with lower move. Probably also a few orlies and unipegataurs (it's not clear if all of them were killed by Wanda). Depending on how many bats got killed by the dwagons Caeser may end up regretting his attitude.

[tomaO2]

Not even going think about it being used as an ominous turn of phrase? There's nothing other than logic (not always the best way to anticipate Rob and Jamie!) to mark that as a literal threat.

No, it's quite impossible that this is simply a turn of phrase, although you are right that the phrase isn't technically correct.

You see, blood, as we know it, doesn't exist in Erfworld. Don't believe me? Look at anyone that's wounded and you will not see any blood.

Therefore blood can only be interpreted as meaning something else. Perhaps lifeforce? I imagine they get a red liquid that pops up that they call blood but for them to associate what pops up with something they can drain from another unit means they must be serious when they say it.

If there was no connection then it would be like when Wanda asked, "what is a child?" For it to be a threat it must mean that it's posssible.

[Natio]

No, it's quite impossible that this is simply a turn of phrase, although you are right that the phrase isn't technically correct.

You see, blood, as we know it, doesn't exist in Erfworld. Don't believe me? Look at anyone that's wounded and you will not see any blood.

Therefore blood can only be interpreted as meaning something else. Perhaps lifeforce? I imagine they get a red liquid that pops up that they call blood but for them to associate what pops up with something they can drain from another unit means they must be serious when they say it.

If there was no connection then it would be like when Wanda asked, "what is a child?" For it to be a threat it must mean that it's posssible.

I'd argue that it might not be that literal. When people are threatening to be particularly viscious they might say similar things like I'll drink your blood after I boop you up etc...

[Midnight Roamer]

Really? I don't disbelieve you, but I'd like some reference. I used Wikipedia for everything... just type in Mt. St. Helens, Yellowstone, and Vesuvius. Backed that up with some stuff from TV (like Supervolcano about Yellowstone, which was on this very night in Canada on Discovery. No kidding! Seen it before, though.) The image above shows the magma from MSH coming directly from the upper mantle. Now, that might not be right. Sure, it might come from that mantle heating NA plate rocks, and that wells up. But I'm guessing. Can you clarify and source me?

Well, first, I never said that magma did not come out of the mantle, I was merely pointing out the difference between the molten rock we call magma and the molten rock in the outer core. I was disagreeing with your statement that "magma is under everything in the world". This is incorrect, and if it were true, all magma would be under intense pressure with literally the weight of the world upon it. The outer core, which IS under everything on the world is not made of the same stuff, so your assertion is incorrect.
I agreed with you that magma formed under low pressure conditions. I also agreed that it formed in the upper mantle and crust. I just commented upon your juxtaposition of those facts and the statement that the earth's crust is thinner than an eggshell. Composed of calcium carbonate, the eggshell is relatively strong, but brittle. The earth's crust is a bit more flexible.
I used Wikipedia as well, but I looked up magma . If you look at composition on the same page, you will note that composition varies. I wandered over to outer core but found only a stub. Still, in the stub the outer core's composition is given as nickel and iron. I did some skimming of an article available through my University Library, but I don't think the links would work here, as I'm not likely to post my password to log into the library. Either way, the same solution presents itself. Molten rock in the outer core is primarily nickel and iron, a composition that is given to us by tests because we don't ever see it. Magma in the mantle and crust are made of various silicates, and the composition varies more than that of the molten core.

[Midnight Roamer]

Well, MSH or Vesuvius, maybe not. But the Iceland and sub-Atlantic eruptions, where the plates are separating? You'd find it hard to convince me that wasn't coming straight up from the mantle. But hey, reference me, please. I love to learn.

Exactly right. It comes from the mantle, which is distinct from the outer core, which is specifically what I stated in the sentence you quoted.

[Midnight Roamer]

On the other hand, we already know 'a wizard did it' as the saying goes. So really Rob can't do it wrong, whether based on a real eruption or not.

It really depends on how important it is to the authors and audience that the facts are correct with regard to real world physics and geology. I really don't think there's going to be much about the inner workings of the volcano in future strips.

[Gez]

It really depends on how important it is to the authors and audience that the facts are correct with regard to real world physics and geology.

Especially given how Erfworld is quite blatantly not the real world.

[Kreistor]

Well, first, I never said that magma did not come out of the mantle, I was merely pointing out the difference between the molten rock we call magma and the molten rock in the outer core. I was disagreeing with your statement that "magma is under everything in the world". This is incorrect, and if it were true, all magma would be under intense pressure with literally the weight of the world upon it. The outer core, which IS under everything on the world is not made of the same stuff, so your assertion is incorrect.
I agreed with you that magma formed under low pressure conditions. I also agreed that it formed in the upper mantle and crust. I just commented upon your juxtaposition of those facts and the statement that the earth's crust is thinner than an eggshell. Composed of calcium carbonate, the eggshell is relatively strong, but brittle. The earth's crust is a bit more flexible.
I used Wikipedia as well, but I looked up magma . If you look at composition on the same page, you will note that composition varies. I wandered over to outer core but found only a stub. Still, in the stub the outer core's composition is given as nickel and iron. I did some skimming of an article available through my University Library, but I don't think the links would work here, as I'm not likely to post my password to log into the library. Either way, the same solution presents itself. Molten rock in the outer core is primarily nickel and iron, a composition that is given to us by tests because we don't ever see it. Magma in the mantle and crust are made of various silicates, and the composition varies more than that of the molten core.

Okay, so what you're angry with me about is that I don't have access to better information, and I'm not figuring out what experts have kept secret?

[fendrin]

It really depends on how important it is to the authors and audience that the facts are correct with regard to real world physics and geology. I really don't think there's going to be much about the inner workings of the volcano in future strips.

Not really; see, even if erfworld has real-world geology and physics (which to large extents I find doubtful), this was not a normal volcanic eruption. Why should we expect it to follow the normal patterns of volcanic eruptions? It may have been part of the magic that caused it to have the magma chamber emptied and plugged, essentially turning GK from dormant/croaked volcano to normal mountain.

For that matter, as far as we know, the magic caused the entire mountain to explode and there's nothing left but a crater.

Remember, the 'a wizard did it' (ironically the title of the most recent OotS page) trope is that if a fantasy world has anything in it that violates the expected norms or science (for instance, D&D owlbears), it is explained away as being a magical effect. In this case, we already know the eruption was caused by magic. So the possible results are unlimited (considering that we have no concept on the limit of what magic can do in Erfworld; it in fact seems limitless).

[Templar]

Vinnie Doombats continues to rock. I cannot tell you how pleased I am to see the guys really plugging away hard at this strip again.

[SteveMB]

For it to be a threat it must mean that it's posssible.

I'm pretty sure that it's impossible to actually shove someone's head up their nether regions or pull their guts out through their nose, but people use phrases like that as threats all the time.

[Midnight Roamer]

Okay, so what you're angry with me about is that I don't have access to better information, and I'm not figuring out what experts have kept secret?

Angry? You've argued with other posters regarding the veracity of their claims, does that mean that you are angry with them? I'm not arguing out of anger, I'm just very confused with how you construct some of your arguments. In some of your posts, you seem to be confusing the mantle with the outer core. In other posts, you're pretty clear on the distinction. I was merely correcting what I saw as inconsistencies in your research. If you will recall, I even suggested that none of our discussion was relevant to the comic, which opened up another line of conversation that others have continued. Just as you are entitled to respond to my comments on your posts, I am entitled to respond to yours. Please don't comment on my emotional state when you don't know me, and when I have given no explicit indication as to its state.

Secret? All the information I've accessed is clearly available in Wikipedia, which you have referenced yourself. I assumed that you would want more than a stub for a reference and so I found them, but then decided not to use them. I merely pointed out that I found some articles on geology through my library so no one would think that I hadn't pursued the issue further. (Maybe I should have edited it out, my mistake.) Of course, I could be lying, but so could everyone.

[fendrin]

...I found some articles on geology through my library...

Out of curiosity, what articles? Some of us also have access to scholarly journals (and I want to take advantage of it as much as possible while I can).

[Midnight Roamer]

Not really; see, even if erfworld has real-world geology and physics (which to large extents I find doubtful), this was not a normal volcanic eruption. Why should we expect it to follow the normal patterns of volcanic eruptions? It may have been part of the magic that caused it to have the magma chamber emptied and plugged, essentially turning GK from dormant/croaked volcano to normal mountain.

For that matter, as far as we know, the magic caused the entire mountain to explode and there's nothing left but a crater.

Remember, the 'a wizard did it' (ironically the title of the most recent OotS page) trope is that if a fantasy world has anything in it that violates the expected norms or science (for instance, D&D owlbears), it is explained away as being a magical effect. In this case, we already know the eruption was caused by magic. So the possible results are unlimited (considering that we have no concept on the limit of what magic can do in Erfworld; it in fact seems limitless).

I'm pretty much there with you. I think the volcano has served its purpose. Unless a later strip involves a volcano-centric issue--such as Stanley being unable to rebuild GK because the volcano is still active, for instance--we've probably seen as much volcanic activity as we are going to.

[Midnight Roamer]

Out of curiosity, what articles? Some of us also have access to scholarly journals (and I want to take advantage of it as much as possible while I can).

I had long since closed the window with the articles I browsed, but since you asked:
Here's an actual website I found, that anyone should be able to access.

I looked at this article , even though it's about extrasolar planets, the researchers' beginning point of reference is the earth. (If the link is broken, the article is available to your library through HW Wilson database. It's from Icarus Magazine (San Diego, CA v. 191 no. 1 (November 1 2007) p. 337-510. Authors are Sotin, C.; Grasset, A.; Mocquet, A.)

If you need more, I can find more, a couple of the sources I glanced at turned out to not be available in their full text online.

[Killer Angel]

Mt. St. H could have been foreseen to have an eruption because the days before saw parts of the mountain rising, almost visibly, from the pressure below.

Perhaps the treasures in the tresury are, maybe, gemstones? I dunno... just seems to make a ton of sense to me. Explains why they can't be taken with Stanley, or at least in small quantity only and can be captured. It doesn't seem to me that a virtual number like our bank accounts can be captured by taking a city.

Indeed Mt. S. H. was foreseen by geologist (and the places around the mount were eveacuated). Only the real strenght of the explosion was unexpected... If I'm right, there's also a film documenting the explosion (taken at a not-so-safe distance).

On treasury, i think it's like the resources you gather in games like Starcraft. In Mines (under the cities) you collect minerals, etc., but the "money" are virtual: you have an amount of treasure, that you can spend (or keep safe for a later moment) only if you have a city and the relative structures to produce units.
You can leave the city, but you cannot take the treasure with you.

[Killer Angel]

I had long since closed the window with the articles I browsed, but since you asked:
Here's an actual website I found, that anyone should be able to access.

If you need more, I can find more, a couple of the sources I glanced at turned out to not be available in their full text online.

While I find the thing very interesting, I suggest to limit the discussions on real geology applied to a fantasy world.
The Volcano has done his job, and from a narrative point, it's a great one!


...and you don't really want this, right?:

http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0150.html

[chefsotero]

And About the zombocano, since Erfworld is based on an TBS game it should IMHO behave in 3 ways:

1) Count as a GK unit and therefore cease its "attack" when GK's turn ends

2) Count as a natural fenomem and last for N turns (Kinda like the random events in Master of Orion)

3) Count as a random unity and have it's own turn and last till its croaked again or expires as any uncroaked. (like neutral monsters in Battle of Westnoth or space monsters in MoO)

I see that to be way more self consistent than it behaving like MSH or vesuvius, given that those 2 happen in a RTSG not a TBSG. but in the end plotmancy trumps all.