[3.5] Flexible Domains

[Myou]

I've been pondering something an I'd like to know what others think.

I don't like that clerics can cast sorcerer/wizard spells, both from the perspective of fluff and crunch.

I'm considering disallowing any spell that appears on the sorcerer/wizard spell list from being used as a domain spell, and instead allowing clerics to choose the spells that make up each of their domains spells as they gain access to each spell level. The spells they choose would have to fit the theme of the domain of course.

So, what do you think?

[monty]

I don't like it. If you restrict domains to spells they could cast anyway, but let them choose the spells, then you may as well just give them extra spell slots.

[Myou]

I don't like it. If you restrict domains to spells they could cast anyway, but let them choose the spells, then you may as well just give them extra spell slots.

Well, it's not restricted purely to spells they can already cast, they can choose any spells that aren't on the Sor/Wiz list, so they can pick things like druid spells, paladin spells and domain-only spells, etc.

[Kylarra]

I'm curious what your rationale for not liking the fluff of a cleric of a certain domain being allowed certain very specific spells off the arcane lists is.


I'm also morbidly curious how much you hate the magic domain.

[oxybe]

would this also apply to the actual cleric list or just domains? clerics without read magic, detect magic & other simple spells make me a sad panda.

keep in mind that this ruling will butcher a lot of domains. a necromancer cleric will have to rework his death domain almost entirely for example.

to keep using the Death domain, the Priest of Orcus who raises an undead army to feed the demon lord's thirst for power would make sense for him to have the animate dead and create/greater create undead spell, in addition to wail of the banshee. yet those domain spells are also on the wizard list.

I also wonder how you make the distinction between "cleric borrowing from sorcerer/wizard" and "sorcerer/wizard borrowing from cleric", and your rational behind this.

[Olo Demonsbane]

I, personally, don't like it. It diminishes the power of clerics compared to wizards.

Plus, it downsizes the Archivist.

[monty]

I'm not sure why you don't like the fluff, anyway. A wizard bends the universe by studying the way things work. A cleric bends the universe through the power of their deity/cause/whatever, and gets additional ways to bend it through the particular specialization of their whatever. If the universe happens to get bent the same way in both cases, who cares?

[Toliudar]

Yup. I don't see the point behind this. Domains are one of the few ways to mechanically customize a cleric to a certain mindset and ethos.

Also, if it's only the Sor/Wiz list that you're restricting...does that mean that they can pick from bard, duskblade...beguiler...

[Frosty]

Yup. I don't see the point behind this. Domains are one of the few ways to mechanically customize a cleric to a certain mindset and ethos.

Also, if it's only the Sor/Wiz list that you're restricting...does that mean that they can pick from bard, duskblade...beguiler...

So...cleric of Olidimarra with Glibness here we come?

[Curmudgeon]

What do I think? I think you're misguided. Wizards have the best spell list. Getting upset because Clerics -- with the right domains -- can have access to at most 9 of those spells is a serious waste of breath. Get over it, please.

[Myou]

I don't want to seriously reduce the power of clerics, but it seems to me that they don't need arcane spells to be overpowered.

I'm curious what your rationale for not liking the fluff of a cleric of a certain domain being allowed certain very specific spells off the arcane lists is.


I'm also morbidly curious how much you hate the magic domain.

Well, because arcane spells don't really match the cleric, who's a holy warrior.

And it's just silly for clerics to get some of the very best spells in the game when they already get better BAB, saves, armour, abilities and more - they should be (in my opinion) using magic more to augment themselves, not as their primary means of attack.

Well, it's just really inappropriate thematically. xD

would this also apply to the actual cleric list or just domains? clerics without read magic, detect magic & other simple spells make me a sad panda.

keep in mind that this ruling will butcher a lot of domains. a necromancer cleric will have to rework his death domain almost entirely for example.

to keep using the Death domain, the Priest of Orcus who raises an undead army to feed the demon lord's thirst for power would make sense for him to have the animate dead and create/greater create undead spell, in addition to wail of the banshee. yet those domain spells are also on the wizard list.

I also wonder how you make the distinction between "cleric borrowing from sorcerer/wizard" and "sorcerer/wizard borrowing from cleric", and your rational behind this.

It would only apply to domains. Nice reference. x3

I think should add the stipulation that spells that appear on the cleric list are allowed, even if they're also on the sorcerer list, that makes sense.

I'm sorry, I don't quite know what you mean when you talk about the sor/wiz borrowing from the cleric. ^^;

I, personally, don't like it. It diminishes the power of clerics compared to wizards.

Plus, it downsizes the Archivist.

Clerics get loads of other great things, all wizards have are their spells.

I'm not sure why you don't like the fluff, anyway. A wizard bends the universe by studying the way things work. A cleric bends the universe through the power of their deity/cause/whatever, and gets additional ways to bend it through the particular specialization of their whatever. If the universe happens to get bent the same way in both cases, who cares?

Well, to me it clashes with arcane casters and just doesn't match the way I see clerics. Just how I see it.

Yup. I don't see the point behind this. Domains are one of the few ways to mechanically customize a cleric to a certain mindset and ethos.

Also, if it's only the Sor/Wiz list that you're restricting...does that mean that they can pick from bard, duskblade...beguiler...

Other than feats and equipment and prepared spells and roleplaying?

As long as it's a spell that's not also on the sorcerer/wizard list then yeah.

What do I think? I think you're misguided. Wizards have the best spell list. Getting upset because Clerics -- with the right domains -- can have access to at most 9 of those spells is a serious waste of breath. Get over it, please.

Wow, that was incredibly rude and insulting. I thought better of you, Curmudgeon.

[monty]

But they're not getting arcane spells. They're getting spells that happen to also be on the arcane list. There's a big difference.

[JoshuaZ]

The clerics aren't getting long lists of arcane spells. they are getting a tiny list of spells which are a) identical to a handful of arcane spells and b) can only be cast a very limited number of times daily.

If you are concerned about clerics getting too much then you can reduce their BAB.

Regarding the issue of using cleric magic to augment rather than attack, even if you have domains that give offensive spells, the bets bet for a cleric in most encounters is still going to be augmentation and going all CoDzilla.

[Toliudar]

Well, because arcane spells don't really match the cleric, who's a holy warrior.

Well, that's one way to interpret a cleric. Especially with the cloistered cleric option, the cleric can also be a hermit, a sage, an evangelist, a healer, a prophet, a Holy Smith of Moradin...

Clearly you understand the value of this kind of customization, or else you wouldn't be offering your players the opportunity to create their own domain lists.

And yes, of course a character can be customized through role-play, which is why I specified "mechanically." Every character can be customized by feats, gear, and skills. I'm talking about choices to be made that stem from the class.

Ah well. You asked what others thought. Now you know.

[Curmudgeon]

Wow, that was incredibly rude and insulting. I thought better of you, Curmudgeon.

Calling someone misguided is now "incredibly rude and insulting"? I didn't know they'd changed the definition.

I intended no insult. But I still think this problem you're trying to solve is no problem at all, and thus a waste of effort.

[Dacia Brabant]

Although I too do not approve of your reasoning behind this, I have to say I do like the idea of letting players and GMs retool their domains into something that fits their character concept better. I know there are tons of alternate domains out there already but having customizable spell lists depending on how they understand some of those portfolios should be represented seems like a good idea to me.

[Myou]

But they're not getting arcane spells. They're getting spells that happen to also be on the arcane list. There's a big difference.

Well, to me spells like shapechange and time stop are arcane spells, they're the core of what the wizard/sorcerer does.

The clerics aren't getting long lists of arcane spells. they are getting a tiny list of spells which are a) identical to a handful of arcane spells and b) can only be cast a very limited number of times daily.

If you are concerned about clerics getting too much then you can reduce their BAB.

Regarding the issue of using cleric magic to augment rather than attack, even if you have domains that give offensive spells, the bets bet for a cleric in most encounters is still going to be augmentation and going all CoDzilla.

Well, if they get so few why is it a big deal if they lose them?

Well, that's one way to interpret a cleric. Especially with the cloistered cleric option, the cleric can also be a hermit, a sage, an evangelist, a healer, a prophet, a Holy Smith of Moradin...

Clearly you understand the value of this kind of customization, or else you wouldn't be offering your players the opportunity to create their own domain lists.

And yes, of course a character can be customized through role-play, which is why I specified "mechanically." Every character can be customized by feats, gear, and skills. I'm talking about choices to be made that stem from the class.

Ah well. You asked what others thought. Now you know.

You do have a point that some roles make arcane spells appropriate.
I just feel that there are other spells that could replace them.

Calling someone misguided is now "incredibly rude and insulting"? I didn't know they'd changed the definition.

I intended no insult. But I still think this problem you're trying to solve is no problem at all, and thus a waste of effort.

No, that's condescending. The insult comes from the rest of your comment, which suggests that I'm getting 'upset' and that I should 'get over it'. If you intended no insult then suggestions like that were a bad idea.

But never mind, there's no point in arguing over accidental offence. Let's forget about it.

In any case, I probably won't take the idea further, since people seem to hate it. I don't see why, since the arguments seem to be contradictory, but it's easier to just ignore the element that I don't like if people feel strongly about it.

[Kylarra]

Well, because arcane spells don't really match the cleric, who's a holy warrior.

Alternatively, they could be an unholy warrior. Or not a warrior.

And it's just silly for clerics to get some of the very best spells in the game when they already get better BAB, saves, armour, abilities and more - they should be (in my opinion) using magic more to augment themselves, not as their primary means of attack.

Well, it's just really inappropriate thematically. xD

It's not inappropriate thematically unless you want it to be.

We could go to the other extreme too, pull off the s/w lists all spells that are also on the cleric lists. By fluff it doesn't make sense that the arcane spellcasters are replicating divine spells with their magic right?

Well, to me spells like shapechange and time stop are arcane spells, they're the core of what the wizard/sorcerer does.

Would you also be pulling shapechange off the druid list? Are spells that are in the druid list that are also on the s/w lists automatically excluded from being choices for domain spells? While I am all for options (which is part of why I enjoy 3.X char building), your rationale behind this idea is flawed and biased.

Go ahead and houserule it if you want, but don't try to make any fluff/crunch justifications beyond "I don't like it this way".

I do support some flexibility in domains, and would allow spell swapping with sufficient justification on a case-by-case basis, but I don't like the rationale you're presenting for this rather arbitrary stance.

[TheCountAlucard]

You do have a point that some roles make arcane spells appropriate.
I just feel that there are other spells that could replace them.

...But the point is, when a cleric is casting them, they're not arcane spells! They just happen to function identically to the arcane spells named, but they are actually divine.

[Dixieboy]

Poor cleric of mystra, bocob or we-jas D:

[Baalthazaq]

Ouch, looks like you really took a beating on this one. :)

You fell victim to at least 2 things. First, the problem of painting the shed. This is something very subjective and something you cannot possibly back up with anything other than "I just think it should be this way", when it doesn't technically need to be.

2) You're interfering not with people's characters but people's concepts of characters. If I say, "sorry, you can't take that feat, it's overpowered", I don't need to put up with argument for more than a minute.

If I say "Nah, your character doesn't like whirlwind attack, he'd rather have this here mounted archery feat", my players will kill me and leave my body to burn in a convenient house fire.

If you want to do something like that, I'd advise running a campaign where you specifically state that there is something about the world that doesn't allow crossovers. Mages and Clerics are bitter rivals perhaps. Maybe have specific things clerics have control over and specific things mages have control over. I'd advise against it though.

3 Finally. You've neglected that the clerics are already only getting those domains for a reason. Or should be.

I made a Halfling follower of "Fate" once (Nicknamed the Karma Kender). Utilizing Fortune's Friend, Cleric, Contemplative. Domains were luck, fate, destiny. I had some arcane spells but the reason I had them was to do with the fluff (I was the one chosen by the Gods to succeed against a certain enemy we were facing). Feats were to do with the same thing. 17 rerolls per day, a hell of a lot of spells to bend fate any which way I chose.

My next cleric is a follower of Levistus (long story) so has the cold domain. It makes total sense for him to use cone of cold when his "god" is the ruler of the Stygian Wastes! It doesn't matter if it's in the sorcerer list too.

Encourage your players to tell you why they're picking those domains, and even be picky if you want.
"You want Time and Slime? Who the hell do you worship that has time and slime?"
"Chime, the lord of Rhyme?"
"No."

Otherwise I say leave them alone.

Longest post ever, but I'm like that.

[MeklorIlavator]

Ouch, looks like you really took a beating on this one. :)

You fell victim to at least 2 things. First, the problem of painting the shed. This is something very subjective and something you cannot possibly back up with anything other than "I just think it should be this way", when it doesn't technically need to be.

2) You're interfering not with people's characters but people's concepts of characters. If I say, "sorry, you can't take that feat, it's overpowered", I don't need to put up with argument for more than a minute.

If I say "Nah, your character doesn't like whirlwind attack, he'd rather have this here mounted archery feat", my players will kill me and leave my body to burn in a convenient house fire.

If you want to do something like that, I'd advise running a campaign where you specifically state that there is something about the world that doesn't allow crossovers. Mages and Clerics are bitter rivals perhaps. Maybe have specific things clerics have control over and specific things mages have control over. I'd advise against it though.

3 Finally. You've neglected that the clerics are already only getting those domains for a reason. Or should be.

I made a Halfling follower of "Fate" once (Nicknamed the Karma Kender). Utilizing Fortune's Friend, Cleric, Contemplative. Domains were luck, fate, destiny. I had some arcane spells but the reason I had them was to do with the fluff (I was the one chosen by the Gods to succeed against a certain enemy we were facing). Feats were to do with the same thing. 17 rerolls per day, a hell of a lot of spells to bend fate any which way I chose.

My next cleric is a follower of Levistus (long story) so has the cold domain. It makes total sense for him to use cone of cold when his "god" is the ruler of the Stygian Wastes! It doesn't matter if it's in the sorcerer list too.

Encourage your players to tell you why they're picking those domains, and even be picky if you want.
"You want Time and Slime? Who the hell do you worship that has time and slime?"
"Chime, the lord of Rhyme?"
"No."

Otherwise I say leave them alone.

Longest post ever, but I'm like that.

This +1.

In addition, you basically have made all domains nature or music related, unless the system is really messed up, in which case Clerics get Heal and such spells at 4th level and win the game even harder.

[The_Snark]

I think the problem here is that limiting it to non-sorcerer and wizard spells is a bit of an arbitrary limit. I'm in favor of letting players customize their spells to a degree, but sometimes the cleric, bard and druid lists don't quite have what you'd need.

Take, for example, a cleric of a god of fire, who takes the Fire domain because he wants to be able to channel his god's energy. Under your rules, he'd lose Burning Hands and Fire Shield, as both of those are all sorcerer/wizard spells that don't appear on another (non-domain) list.

Is there really a reason he shouldn't be able to cast these spells? Why can he only channel fire in very specific ways, and not others? You'll notice that the designers took care to make sure that the domain wasn't intruding on a wizard's blasting role (yes yes, I know, but that's how the designers were thinking) too much: he lacks Fireball, Delayed Blast Fireball, Meteor Swarm... You could go trawling about for fire spells that appear on the druid and cleric lists, but it seems silly, when they already have a serviceable selection that doesn't step on the sorcerer's toes. They're not getting the best spells; it's not breaking game balance, and flavor-wise it's silly to say that the god of fire can't grant his followers very much power over fire.

Or a cleric who's taken the Travel domain (not that I've ever liked that much, but what the hey). You've cut out almost all of that domain: Fly, Teleport, Phase Door, Astral Projection... I'd be hard pressed to think of travel-appropriate replacement spells from the lists you like, to be honest; I'd have to go splatbook-diving, and even then I'd end up with an odd list.

Rather than have a blanket ban on sorcerer/wizard-only spells, I'd do this on a case-by-case basis. If you don't like the Trickery domain having access to Time Stop (understandable), go ahead and have your players swap that spell out; if you have a problem with the contents of the Knowledge, Luck, and Magic domains, change 'em. But some of the domains rely on having access to things that tend to be the domain of the sorcerer and wizard, especially the elemental domains; don't force those to change just because not all of their spells are on the druid list. It isn't as though those domains are overpowered as they stand...

[Myou]

*Sigh.* Like I said, I won't be changing domains, since everyone seems so attached to them.

[RebelRogue]

*Sigh.* Like I said, I won't be changing domains, since everyone seems so attached to them.

If you're the DM, why don't you try it out? Just be sure to inform the players of your houserule.

[Curmudgeon]

If the basic problem is that you're against overlap between Cleric and Wizard spells, there is an alternative that you haven't considered: leave Cleric spells alone. Whenever a spell appears on both the Wizard and Cleric lists, strip it from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Summon Monster? Not for Wizards. Gaseous Form? That's for Bards, and Clerics with the Air domain; Sorcerers and Wizards need not apply. Fabricate is on the Artifice, Dwarf, Greed, and Trade domains, so it's not available to Sorcerers and Wizards. Magic Missile? Sorry, that's part of the Force domain spell list.

This is probably my favorite way of toning down Wizard power.

[jcsw]

If the basic problem is that you're against overlap between Cleric and Wizard spells, there is an alternative that you haven't considered: leave Cleric spells alone. Whenever a spell appears on both the Wizard and Cleric lists, strip it from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Summon Monster? Not for Wizards. Gaseous Form? That's for Bards, and Clerics with the Air domain; Sorcerers and Wizards need not apply. Fabricate is on the Artifice, Dwarf, Greed, and Trade domains, so it's not available to Sorcerers and Wizards. Magic Missile? Sorry, that's part of the Force domain spell list.

This is probably my favorite way of toning down Wizard power.

No Detect Magic? Really?

[Curmudgeon]

No Detect Magic? Really?

Not without multiclassing. I've also used this mod only applying to Wizards, and left Sorcerers alone.