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Thread: Variant Rogue

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    Default Variant Rogue

    Updated!





    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~The Rogue~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Rogue
    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
    1st|
    +0
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding
    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |Evasion, Special, Trap Sense +1
    3rd|
    +2
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |Sneak Attack +2d6
    4th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |Uncanny Dodge, Special
    5th|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |Sneak Attack +3d6
    6th|
    +4
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |Special, Trap Sense +2
    7th|
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |Sneak Attack +4d6
    8th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |Special, Thief's Luck
    9th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |Sneak Attack +5d6
    10th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |Special, Trap Sense +3
    11th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |Sneak Attack +6d6
    12th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |Improved Evasion, Special
    13th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +4
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |Sneak Attack +7d6
    14th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +4
    |
    +9
    |
    +4
    |Special, Trap Sense +4
    15th|
    +11/+6/+1
    |
    +5
    |
    +9
    |
    +5
    |Sneak Attack +8d6
    16th|
    +12+7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |Improved Uncanny Dodge, Special
    17th|
    +12/+7/+2
    |
    +5
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |Sneak Attack +9d6
    18th|
    +13/+8/+3
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |Special, Trap Sense +5
    19th|
    +14/+9/+4
    |
    +6
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |Sneak Attack +10d6
    20th|
    +15/+10/+5
    |
    +6
    |
    +12
    |
    +6
    |Rogue's Luck, Special
    [/table]


    Hit Dice: d8
    Base Attack: Moderate.
    Saves: Poor Fortitude, Good Reflexes, Poor Willpower.

    Class Skills
    A rogues class skills (and the key ability to each) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (8 + Int Modifier) x 4.
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int Modifier.


    Class Features

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, short sword and a single martial weapon of their choice. Rogues are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.


    Sneak Attack: At 1st level, if a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty. A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

    Trapfinding: At 1st level, rogues can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20. Finding a non-magical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.
    Rogues can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it. A rogue who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.

    Special Abilities: At 2nd level and at every two levels thereafter, a rogue gains a special ability of her choice from among the following options. A rogue may only take a special ability once unless it says otherwise.


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    Brutal (Ex): The rogue's sneak attack damace dice improves to d8.

    Careful Stride (Ex): A rogue does not provoke attacks of opportunity when moving through threatened areas. However, she still provokes attacks of opportunity when moving faster than her normal movement speed, such as by charging or running.

    Combat Prowess (Ex): The rogues base attack bonus becomes good. All base attack gained from previous rogue levels revert to good, and all levels of rogues gained are treated as good. This works in all ways just like a normal good base attack progression, including gaining additional attacks, meeting the prerequisites of feats and prestige classes, and so forth.

    Crippling Strike (Ex): A rogue with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 1 point of Dexterity and Strength damage. Ability points lost to damage return on their own at the rate of 1 point per day for each damaged ability.

    Daring Posture (Ex): A rogue can use her posture and talk to provoke enemies into making mistakes and attacking poorly. As a swift action, she adds her Charisma bonus (if positive) as a dodge bonus to AC against all opponents that have intelligence of 3 or more and can see and understand her. Creatures immune to mind-affecting effects ignore this AC bonus.

    Death Blow (Ex): A rogue has learned to quickly and efficiency deal with helpless foes and can now perform a coup de grace attack against a helpless defender as a standard without provoking an attack of opportunity. Creature's killed by this attack cannot be revived by any means less then a resurrection spell or greater.

    Deathly Precision (Ex): You may apply sneak attack damage to creatures who normally are immune. However, they are still immune to critical hits and other precision based effects, only your sneak attack damage applys. You gain a bonus on your attack rolls whenever you would be capable of doing sneak attack damage equal to your number of sneak attack damage dice.

    Defensive Roll (Ex): The rogue can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. Once per encounter as an immediate action, when she would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or spell-like ability), the rogue can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the rogue must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll—if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can’t use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the rogue’s evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll. An encounter is considered over when 5 minutes or more have passed without any stressful activity.

    Double Strike (Ex): As a full-round action, a rogue can make an attack against a target, and then follow up that attack with a deadly blow. This combination strike requires that the first melee attack hits the target successfully and does damage. The rogue may then make a second attack, which is rolled using the rogue's normal attack bonus. If the second attack hits, the attack also deals sneak attack damage to the enemy. The finishing strike must be declared before the first attack roll is made.

    Insightful Reaction (Ex): A rogue learns to sense and react to dangers before they happen, with astonishing accuracy. She adds her Intelligence modifier (if positive) to all Reflex saving throws and Initiative checks.

    Merciless (Ex): The rogue may use the Intimidate action to demoralize enemys as a standard action. When using the intimidate skill in this manner, the rogue gains a bonus equal to his sneak attack damage dice.

    Opportunist (Ex): Once per round, the rogue can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as the rogue’s attack of opportunity for that round. Even a rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat can’t use the opportunist ability more than once per round.

    Sense Concealment (Ex): A rogue may automatically roll a search check to find secret containers, doors and traps within a 30 feet of her as if she was actively looking for them.

    Shadow (Ex): A rogue can use the Hide skill even while being observed, and can use the Hide skill in any sort of terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment.

    Silencing Strike (Ex): When a rogue attacks an opponent that is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC, a rogue may declare the use of silencing strike as an immediate action. If attack is successful, the rogue does not deal sneak attack damage with her attack (the attack still does its normal damage, however). Instead, the victim cannot make any articulate sounds or cast spells that have verbal components. A successful Heal check (DC 20) removes effects of this ability, as does healing all damage taken by this ability naturally or magically.

    Skill Mastery (Ex): The rogue becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier (if positive). When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10, even if circumstances or distractions would not otherwise allow her to do so. For every five levels of rogue she possesses, she may select an additional number of skills equal to her Intelligence modifier (minimum 1) in which this ability applys.

    Slippery Mind (Ex): This ability represents the rogue’s ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel her. If a rogue with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw. For every five levels of rogue she possesses, she gains a +1 insight bonus on the second saving throw.

    Sniping Mastery (Ex): A rogue who has hidden at least 10 feet away from her target can make one or more range attacks, then immediately hide again as a free action. She takes only a -10 penalty on her Hide check to do so. In addition, she may apply sneak attack damage and precision based feats and effects (such as Point Blank Shot) with a maximum range of effect to any ranged attack out to a range of its range increment, whichever is higher.

    Sprint (Ex): The rogue may move up to 10 feet as a swift action. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity from moving in or out a threatened space. When using the charge or run action, the rogue gains a +2 bonus on all reflex saving throws and a +2 dodge bonus to armor class for 1 round.

    Trap Calling (Ex): A rogue shares her bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps from Trap Sense with all allies within 30 feet away from her.

    Way with Words (Ex): The rogue suffers only –5 penalty when making rushed Diplomacy checks, and when she is bluffing, the lie never provides more than a +5 bonus on opposed Sense Motive checks.

    Feat: A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability. She must meet the prerequisites to take this feat.


    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



    Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.

    Trap Sense (Ex): At 2nd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses increase by +1 every four levels afterwords.

    Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

    Thief's Luck (Ex): At 8th level, a rogue may reroll any saving throw as a immediate action. If she chooses to use this ability (which must be decided before the result of the original roll is known), she must abide by the second roll, even if its worse.

    Improved Evasion (Ex): Starting at 12th level, this ability works like evasion, except that while the rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth she takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

    Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue of 16th level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a ranger or another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more ranger or rogue levels than the target does rogue levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum ranger or rogue level required to flank the character.

    Rogue's Luck (Ex): At 20th level, a rogue may roll twice when making any saving throw, and take the better result. This ability replaces Thief's Luck.
    Last edited by Jane_Smith; 2009-07-09 at 04:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Variant Rogue

    This is WAY to strong if you don't mind my saying so. It gets special abilities every level a fighter gets feats, 4 times as many skill points, a crapload more skills, weapon finesse automatically (what does incredible weapon finesse do?), sneak attack, and several other abilities.
    Also some of the abilities are better than feats AND they don't have to choose from a specific list when they do.
    They could also have the same BaB progression as a fighter? that's just wrong. Also, your little bit about sneak attack being useless, though there may be about half of the monster's manual full of creatures who are immune to them, the DM will generally use living creatures (and thusly ARE subject to sneak attacks) so more than 50% of the time sneak attack will be VERY powerful, assuming you have another melee party member and ranks in tumble.
    This was in no way meant to demean your creativity

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    Default Re: Variant Rogue

    I would seriously consider putting a level cap on some of these abilities. For example, Crippling Strike is not normally available till level 10 Rogue, and Str damage is a pretty important thing. I can just see people taking 1 level dips in Rogue and the Savvy Rogue feat (Complete Scoundrel) for the ability to deal Str damage to ANYONE. It's quite crippling for most monsters who rely on brute str, if you would forgive the pun :P

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    Default Re: Variant Rogue

    You have seen my variant fighter, correct?

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108643

    As i stated in druid - Please dont rate my classes based on core classes.

    As for the base attack special; Consider it a scaling attack bonus. Level 1-4, its +1 base attack, 5-8 its +2, 9-12 its +3, 13-16 its +4, and 17-20 its +5. And even then, it lacks the fortitude and hit points the fighter does.

    As for the specials? It doesnt get bonus feats "AND" specials every level like the fighter does. If the rogue was to focus on purely feats, it would still come nowhere near the versitility and strengths of the variant fighter.

    And considering i gave Ranger's, Monks, rogues and barbarians uncanny dodge, possibly even fighters as a special warcraft ability maybe, it only seemed fitting to give the rogue something more then sneak attack to work with when they find their sneak attack flipping worthless. With these specials? They can actually stand a chance against the undead or go face to face with another class without worry they will be completely dominated.

    As for the strength damage - If you can get a sneak attack off on someone, they will typically be to dead to care about 2-4 points of sneak damage. Most rogues, especially lower-level, can kill an enemy in only 1-3 good sneak attacks, so i personally dont see the issue. Maybe if i made it to 1 Strength, 1 Dexterity damage each?
    Last edited by Jane_Smith; 2009-04-08 at 09:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Variant Rogue

    Bwaahhhhhhhhh!
    You realize that the ranger's Deadly strike is at the moment slightly stronger than Sneak Attack, more so at the latter levels? I'd either add to this the line "or Flatfooted", or remove it from the Ranger line.

    Also, I don't think this really works. Against anyone with the class levels uncanny dodge, they're still worthless, but against other things they can dominate.

    Oh, and why is Improved uncanny dodge impossible to overcome? I find that to be bad design.

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    Default Re: Variant Rogue

    I'd make it 1 Str OR 1 Dex (Dex damage really kills dragons you know?) and have it increase to 2 at higher levels.

    I don't quite agree about Sneak Attack being that lethal. At low levels, sure, but around level 8-10, when your Fighter can deal upwards of 200 damage on a charge or full attack, the rogue is merely dealing an extra 5d6 on a sneak attack (that's an average of 5 x 3.5 = 17.5 extra damage). Strength damage, on the other hand, helps deal with the enemy's main melee guy and it can make short work of spellcasters (who might have other means of boosting their pathetic hp but still neglecting Strength).

    You're right to remind me not to compare your classes to the core ones. I'd have to bookmark all these classes and pitch them to my DM sometime. Keep'em coming!

    EDIT: @ Melkor: Being flat-footed is essentially losing your Dex to AC, no?
    Last edited by Pramxnim; 2009-04-08 at 09:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Variant Rogue

    Hun, bad "Designing"? I simply havent STATED the whole "rogue X levels higher bypasses", it still works that way, it was just a mass-typo on my part when i was writing all these classes over the entire dang YEAR and trying to spiffy/clean them up from a mess of sketching, notes, etc. I simply dont see it that big of a deal yet, and ill get to it once i post up cleric and monk, so let it be clarified now, rogues, and rangers (and ninjas) can overcome enemys uncanny dodge like core rogues could. Im sorry for not adding it at this time.

    Now, please stop insulting my classes with such mean, mean words like bad designing. Considering how long ive been working on these? Thats a fast way for a big flame-post to break out on your behind.

    Edit: Pram is right. Flat footed = Losing dex, which apples sneak attack, deadly strike, etc all the same.
    Last edited by Jane_Smith; 2009-04-08 at 09:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Variant Rogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Pramxnim View Post
    EDIT: @ Melkor: Being flat-footed is essentially losing your Dex to AC, no?
    Not quite. The difference is that uncanny dodge only allows one to retain their dex score to AC, and doesn't remove the flatfooted condition.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jane_Smith View Post
    Hun, bad "Designing"? I simply havent STATED the whole "rogue X levels higher bypasses", it still works that way, it was just a mass-typo on my part when i was writing all these classes over the entire dang YEAR and trying to spiffy/clean them up from a mess of sketching, notes, etc. I simply dont see it that big of a deal yet, and ill get to it once i post up cleric and monk, so let it be clarified now, rogues, and rangers (and ninjas) can overcome enemys uncanny dodge like core rogues could. Im sorry for not adding it at this time.
    Ah, sorry, I forgot to read your mind. See, as this is a redesign/balance of 3.5 I can't assume anything but what you put down. You've put down that there's no way around uncanny dodge, and so I've been going under the presumption that that's what you meant. This isn't the first time I've mentioned this, and this is the first answer I've gotten, so how was I supposed to know that you simply didn't change this as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jane_Smith View Post
    Now, please stop insulting my classes with such mean, mean words like bad designing. Considering how long ive been working on these? Thats a fast way for a big flame-post to break out on your behind.
    Really? You find that really insulting? Get over it. You posted your redesign on the boards for feedback, and I say that one small section of several of your classes seems poorly designed, and now I'm some horrible person? You shouldn't let stuff like that get to you. And as for how long you've worked on them, great. Really, I mean that. I think that I would happily play with these, save for some problems. On the other hand, too bad. I don't care if you've worked your whole life on something, I'll still give my honest option on whatever you produce.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jane_Smith View Post
    Edit: Pram is right. Flat footed = Losing dex, which apples sneak attack, deadly strike, etc all the same.
    Again, Not quite. The difference is that uncanny dodge only allows one to retain their dex score to AC, and doesn't remove the flatfooted condition. Therefore, at the moment, the deadly strike ability still works as long as you go before the opponent. This isn't the first time I've said this, either.

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    Default Re: Variant Rogue

    Ahem.. added those uncanny dodge fixes anyway. Your still a jerk. I may have asked for criticism, but theirs no reason for you to act like an ass about the whole process. Just saying "hey, uncanny dodge isnt right" wouldve been fine enough.

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    Default Re: Variant Rogue

    People, you all need to relax here.

    Violence (even verbal) only begets violence. GiTP always seems to me to be a friendly place (a lot friendlier than WoTC forums, to be sure), so there's no need to go at each others throat all the time. I think this was all a misunderstanding based on presumptions on both sides. Let's not overreact and keep the tone civil, shall we?


    @Melkor: Oops, you're right about the flat-footed part.

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    Default Re: Variant Rogue

    I like the rogue special abilities. They add a lot of flavor to the class. You might consider moving the skill points down to 6 since you've giving a lot of combat abilities. That also forces the rogue to specialize more in what they want to do.

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    Default Re: Variant Rogue

    Seems pretty solid! I really like the customization this allows. In general, the abilities are good. A few items, though...

    I really like the Weapon Finesse addition. I normally houserule away the +1 BAB requirement, specifically because of Rogues, but this fixes it as well.

    Still a bit confused on what "Incredible Finesse" does.

    Would Finishing Strike and Deathly Precision stack? That is, if something's normally immune to sneak attacks, but a Rogue takes Deathly Precision so she can sneak attack it, would she be able to use Finishing Strike against the enemy?

    Finishing Strike seems a little odd to me, and probably strongest at lower levels. As written, it sounds like you'd only get a maximum of two attacks, and it seems like it's supposed to be used against something that you're not otherwise getting sneak attack against. But it's a full attack action, which probably means that either the monster has moved next to you to attack you, or you've positioned yourself poorly and aren't flanking anything. (Because if you're already flanking, you'd just take a full attack). But Rogues normally don't start taking on enemies without support, and even with the extra goodies, I can see a rogue wanting to withdraw rather than take the chance of not killing something and end up letting it get a full attack against him next round. I like the idea, generally; I'm just not sure how it would play out as written.

    I don't see why anyone would take Death Blow over any of the other choices. "Helpless" happens so infrequently (at least in my experience) - and attacks of opportunity over CdG's even less frequently - that it's not worth it. I like the concept of a Rogue being able to kill somebody quickly, but I think that ought to be a class feature, not a choice among abilities. Maybe a goodie at Rogue11?

    Does Sense Concealment stack with being an Elf, as far as secret doors are concerned? (Can Elf Rogues search at 35 feet?)

    I think it needs some sort of a nifty capstone at 20. It's already better than what Rogue gets currently, but there would be at least some amount of diminishing returns for the abilities. By level 20, you'd have already picked the 9 "best" (however the player defines that) of the abilities - the 9 they wanted most. Yeah, you still have 16 to choose from, and all of them are nice bumps, but they've already picked out the best. Maybe give them a bump to Sneak Attack dice size, stackable with Merciless? (Haven't done the math, that might be too much). But something more than another rogue ability would be appropriate.
    Last edited by Telonius; 2009-04-10 at 09:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Variant Rogue

    Meklor isn't being overbearing with his comments. He's stating his honest opinion on the matter and he has been stating for the last couple classes that Improved Uncanny has been missing that all-important rogue-vulnerability line. It was a glaring defect, so he called you on it. He's also being civil about it, as well. No need to get overprotective, he's PEACHing these like anything else placed on these forums.

    In any case, now that it's fixed, we shouldn't have issue with it as it currently stands. Onwards to further homebrewing!

    Now, this version of the rogue seems to harken for me back to the Pathfinder Rogue, much like the connection between your Barbarian and the Pathfinder Barbarian. Special abilities more frequent, giving Rogues more options to diversify, which is always a plus in my book.

    Now, on that matter, I do think some of the abilities need some prereqs, whether they be level requirements or other special abilities, like requiring Brutal before getting into some of the other combat boosters. I think that'd help balance this class out a little bit.

    Crippling Strike should also be reduced to 1 point of Strength damage per Sneak, as doing ability damage at all is a plus in and of itself. This way, you more gradually bleed your enemies of their strength without upsetting your DM overly. I could see increasing the damage at a later time but it should probably start off lower to start with.

    Sense Concealment has a bit of a wide range of auto-detection, at least starting, as you're beating out racial specials by a fair amount. Maybe cutting the range back to 10' and letting the radius grow with level would work better, as I don't see a 2nd level Rogue casing a large room for every little safe and nook just by standing in the middle of the room. A higher level Rogue, sure, just not a Rogue whose barely started on his pickpocketing career.

    I don't have any other major issues with this that I can see, so I think it's otherwise alright. Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.
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    Default Re: Variant Rogue

    As for what that 3rd level bonus feat is;

    Incredible Finesse (General, Fighter)
    You have mastered the skill of using weapons that can benefit as much from dexterity as from strength.
    Prerequisite: Dex 15+, Weapon Finesse.
    Benefit: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, scimitar, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may add your Dexterity modifier (if positive) on melee damage rolls. This is in addition to your Strength modifier. This damage is considered precision damage, and creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this damage.
    Specials: Unarmed and natural attacks always are considered light weapons.


    As for finishing strike. I added that as a 'melee rogues' style of feinting in combat in a sense. Instead of making a bluff check for a sneak attack, etc, they can use a normal attack followed by second attack that applies it. It was my attempt to making rogues more capable of going toe to toe, face to face with some enemy's, if that is how the player's play-style works.

    As for sense concealment - No, it doesn't widen the range or stack with the elven racial. I might just make it go by level - possibly 10 ft. at 1st, +5 ft. at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th, it would work better that way...

    Crippling strike i was just copying the feat of the same name and tossing the sacrifice of sneak attack damage dice by using it. I suppose I could lower the Strength damage to 1.

    As for giving specials requirements - no. I simply wont do that to it. I wanted to give rogues more versatility, and if i to make all abilities scale with level, etc better, then ill do that, but im not adding requirements that would only limit a person's choice.


    Edit - Ok, made alot of changes to the specials. Made more of them scale with level, made alot of the bonus's only apply to a max of the rogues level, etc. Also changed Merciless a bit...
    Last edited by Jane_Smith; 2009-04-11 at 12:15 AM.

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    Default Re: Variant Rogue

    The specials look a bit better. I guess I forgot to mention it earlier but I think the Silencing Strike duration is a bit long. I mean, basing it on damage is a bit much. I think number of sneak dice would be a better determiner of duration on that, much as I find it hillarious to think of the barbarian/rogue with his 'lockpick' (an adamantine greatsword) doing a Silencing Strike (which is more of a decapitation then anything else =p).
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    Default Re: Variant Rogue

    Thats why its such a long duration ^.- you get your throat slit and lets see how long it is before you can form words! XD

    Eh, how about the silencing strike lets you make a single unarmed strike at your full attack bonus as an immediate action when you attack an enemy thats flat footed, and its based on the unarmed damage? Perhaps sneak attack doesnt apply, etc?

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    Default Re: Variant Rogue

    What if, for the abilities that require sneak attack damage to be dealt (crippling strike, silencing strike, etc) you base the damage on SA die. Such as...

    Crippling Strike
    Whenever you have a chance to deal your sneak attack damage, you may sacrifice die of damage in order to mortally wound your foe. For every 5 sneak attack dice sacrificed, you may deal 1 point of ability damage to any of your foes three physical scores (STR, CON, DEX).

    Silencing Strike
    Whenever you have a chance to deal your sneak attack damage, you may sacrifice die of damage in order to impair their spellcasting ability. For every 3 sneak attack dice sacrificed, you may prevent them from casting spells for 1 round. For example, sacrificing 6 sneak attack dice would prevent the enemy caster from casting for 2 rounds.

    The big advantage of this setup is it gives a "soft" minimum level for the abilities (which can be lowered by taking another ability that perhaps increases sneak attack dice). Additionally, this can be an alternate for attacking creatures that are normally immune to precision damage, if you care to word it as such.

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    Default Re: Variant Rogue

    Updated a bit. ^.^

    Removed weapon finesse and incredible finesse - they can always select those feats with the special's they get. Stretched out the trap-sense bonuses and lowered the total to +5 instead of +6. Added thief's and rogue's luck, and made improved evasion a class feature they do not have to select.

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    Default Re: Variant Rogue

    Well, Silencing Strike has definitely improved, I think, though I question the use of an immediate action. I mean, is this just to ensure that if you used a swift action this round you can still do one or are we supposing that we'll be making this attack as part of an AOO, whether from it being provoked by spellcasting or through the usage of Opportunist? Honestly, I think it should be a swift action, as I don't think we necessarily have the frame of mind to line up the trachea in that amount of time but that's just me. =p

    Also, yay for the Sprinting Rogue, able to make 10 foot steps with a swift action! I suddenly see Rogue/Scouts coming out of the woodwork everywhere, able to do full attack skirmishes! >=D At least this is easier and more conceivable than being a Monk/Scout and trying to get a Sparring Dummy of the Master to pull off the same trick, though that directly augments the 5-foot step into a 10-foot step.

    Finally, Kudos to Shadow, Hide in Plain Sight and Camouflage combined into one ability. It's much more conceivable an ability and prevents people from forgetting that HiPS isn't all powerful, since they still somewhere to hide if they don't have Camouflage.

    Otherwise, the rewrite looks pretty good. Nice work!

    Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.
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