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    Default [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    Bladesinger
    D'lenn ir'Sahra, elven bladesinger


    Bladesingers are elves who have blended art, swordplay, and arcane magic in a harmonious whole. In battle, a bladesingerís lithe movements and subtle tactics are beautiful, belying their deadly martial efficiency. Multiclass warblade/wizards are the most obvious candidates for the prestige class, due to their reliance on Intelligence, followed by swordsage/wizards or swordsage/sorcerers, although anyone of elven blood can initiate maneuvers and cast arcane spells can become a bladesinger. A rare few of other races learn this art, and then only if they are ruathar.
    Hit Die: d8

    Requirements:
    Race: Any humanoid with the (Elf) subtype.
    BAB: +4
    Skills: Balance 2 ranks, Concentration 8 ranks, Jump 2 ranks, Perform (sing) 2 ranks, Perform (dance) 2 ranks, Tumble 2 ranks.
    Feats: Combat Casting, Dodge, Weapon Finesse
    Maneuvers: Must posses one maneuver of at least 2nd level and one stance of any level.
    Spellcasting: Must be capable of casting 1st level spells.
    Special: Other races may become bladesingers if they are considered ruathar.

    Bladesinger
    {table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells per Day
    1st|
    +1
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |
    Bladesong style (combat)
    |
    -

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    Spellsinger's stance
    |+1 level of arcane spellcasting class

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |
    Evasion
    |+1 level of arcane spellcasting class

    4th|
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    Strike of Celerity (4th)
    |+1 level of arcane spellcasting class

    5th|
    +5
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    Bladesong style (movement)
    |+1 level of arcane spellcasting class

    6th|
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    Bonus feat
    |
    -

    7th|
    +7
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    Battle Tempo
    |+1 level of arcane spellcasting class

    8th|
    +8
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    Strike of Celerity (6th)
    |+1 level of arcane spellcasting class

    9th|
    +9
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |
    Bonus feat
    |+1 level of arcane spellcasting class

    10th|
    +10
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |
    +7
    |
    Bladesong Master stance
    |+1 level of arcane spellcasting class[/table]

    Maneuvers
    {table=head]Level|Known|Readied|Stances
    1st|
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0

    2nd|
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0

    3rd|
    0
    |
    1
    |
    1

    4th|
    0
    |
    0
    |
    0

    5th|
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0

    6th|
    1
    |
    1
    |
    0

    7th|
    0
    |
    0
    |
    0

    8th|
    0
    |
    0
    |
    1

    9th|
    1
    |
    1
    |
    0

    10th|
    1
    |
    0
    |
    0
    [/table]

    Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex)
    Skill Points per Level: 2 + Intelligence modifier.

    Class Features:

    Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: The bladesinger gains no new weapon or armor proficiencies.

    Bladesong Style (Ex): At 1st level, when wielding a bladesong weapon (see below), a bladesinger gains a dodge bonus to Armor Class equal to his class level, up to a maximum equal to his Intelligence or Charisma bonus(depending on the character's primary spellcasting attribute, i.e. Intelligence for wizards, Charisma for sorcerers, etc). When wielding any of the following weapons: longsword, shortsword, dagger, shortspear, scimitar, or rapier (one handed with nothing in the off hand), a spear (two-handed) or any elven racial weapons, a bladesinger may add his Intelligence or Charisma (depending the previous choice) modifier to damage when wielding those weapons in addition to his Strength bonus, if applicable. When wielding the previously listed weapons, he may treat them as if they were light weapons for the purpose of Weapon Finesse. If the bladesinger wears medium or heavy armor or a shield, he loses all benefits of the bladesong style.

    At 5th level, the bladesinger gains a competency bonus to his Balance, Jump, Perform (dance), and Tumble checks equal to half of his bladesinger level.

    If the bladesinger gains spellcasting from a bardic tradition, then he may add his bladesinger level to his bard level to determine the number of bardic music attempts he gets as well as his Inspire Courage ability.

    Spellcasting: At each level except 1st and 6th, when a new bladesinger level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a bladesinger, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.

    Maneuvers: At every level except 3rd, 4th, 7th, and 8th, a bladesinger gains new maneuvers known from the Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and White Raven disciplines. You must meet a maneuver's prerequisite to learn it. You add your full bladesinger levels to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest-level maneuvers known.
    At 3rd, 6th, and 9th levels, you gain additional maneuvers readied (and granted, if applicable) per day.

    Stances Known: At 3rd level, and again at 8th level, you learn a new martial stance from the Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, and White Raven disciplines. You must meet the stances prerequisites to learn it.

    Spellsinger's Stance (Ex): At 2nd level, the bladesinger learns to adopt a stance based upon the bladesong style of fighting. This stance may only be used if the bladesinger is fighting in the bladesong style. While in this stance, the bladesinger gains a +2 perfection bonus to AC during a turn when he casts an arcane spell, and while in this stance casting arcane spells does not provoke attacks of opportunity. In addition, as a move action the bladesinger may attempt to sing his spell to increase the potency of his spell by making a Perform (sing) check. The next spell he casts gains a perfection bonus to his caster level according to the table below.

    {table=head]Perform Check Result|Caster Level Increase
    9 or lower|+0
    10 to 19|+1
    20 to 29|+2
    30 or higher|+4[/table]

    Bardic bladesingers may spend one use of their bardic music ability to use this ability with a +5 competency bonus to their Perform check. (This ability does not stack with the Sublime Chord's ability to increase caster level through song, as this song requires the bladesinger to fully focus on this song.)

    Evasion (Ex): At 3rd level, a bladesinger can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the bladesinger is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless bladesinger does not gain the benefit of evasion.

    Strike of Celerity (Ex): At 4th level the bladesinger learns a signature martial strike of the bladesong fighting style which enhances his arcane prowess. This is a 4th level martial strike of no particular discipline and is readied as any other martial maneuver. By making a standard attack action or a full attack action with this martial strike, the character is able to cast a spell simultaneously with the attack, allowing him to Quicken the use of one arcane spell of up to 4th level without an increase to the spell's level. At 8th level, this martial strike improves to 6th level arcane magic. To use the Strike of Celerity, the character must be fighting according to the bladesong style.

    Battle Tempo (Ex): The rhythm of combat sings through the form of the bladesinger, his every step a beat, his weapon's movements yet another. This rhythm allows the bladesinger's strikes faster progression at the cost of accuracy. On a full attack action, the bladesinger may make an extra attack at his full base attack bonus at the cost of a -2 penalty to all attack rolls for the round.

    If the bladesinger possesses the bardic music ability, he may spend one bardic music use per round to gain a second extra attack (at his full base attack bonus) at the same -2 penalty above.

    Bonus Feat: At 6th level and at 9th level, the bladesinger may select a bonus metamagic feat or a feat from the following list: Acrobatic, Acrobatic Strike, Agile, Athletic, Blade Meditation, Blind-Fight, Bounding Assault, Combat Reflexes, Desert Fire, Evasive Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Ironheart Aura, Lightning Reflexes, Mobile Spellcasting, Mobility, Quick Draw, Rapid Blitz, Run, Song of the White Raven, Spring Attack, Unnerving Calm, White Raven Defense.

    Bladesong Master Stance (Ex): The pinnacle of the bladesinger's art, the bladesong master stance allows for the character to gain the benefits of both the Spellsinger's Stance and any single Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, or White Raven stance that he knows. In addition, while in this stance, the bladesinger gains a +10ft bonus to his base speed and may take 10 on Tumble checks.
    Last edited by ErrantX; 2010-02-26 at 09:00 AM. Reason: Some significant edits!!!!
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    No love for the bladesinger?

    Phooey.

    -X
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    This is good, but there isn't much to separate it from a spellsword, other than it uses evasion over armor. The bladesinger class I know has the ability to cast buff/defense spells while fighting.

    That said, and I repeat, this is good. Love for the Bladesinger.

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    Not bad at all, though to me an arcane caster/ToB maneuver dual-progression dude should be more swordsage-like, or at least have the desert wind and shadow hand disciplines to pick from as well.
    People seemed to like this better, but only marginally so - the way one might prefer to be stabbed than shot. Optimally, one isn't stabbed or shot. Optimally, one eats some cake! But there are times when cake is not available, and instead we are destroyed. This is the deep poetry of the universe. -- Tycho Brahe

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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    Made some significant edits.

    Added Desert Wind to their available discipline list, moved Evasion to 3rd level, removed the inspire courage effect of the Bladesong Master's stance but included the now removed Arcane Edge as part of that stance (and made it a little better).

    Added a different version of the traditional bladesinger's Song of Celerity in as a martial strike of 4th level, called Strike of Celerity.

    Please let me know what you all think.

    -X

    P.S. I was thinking of reducing the number of skill points to 2 + Int modifier and removing Search and probably Sense Motive as well from the class skills. Thoughts on such a change? Also, do you think I should reduce the amount of maneuvers this class gains per level? I gave it more due to steep entry reqs, but perhaps I'm giving it too many?
    Last edited by ErrantX; 2009-04-17 at 08:55 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    Okay, this should be the last edit.

    Toned down maneuver progression and skills a tad, removed the critical augmentation from Bladesong Master's stance and included some movement abilities into it.

    That should about cover it.

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    -X
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    Some significant editting has been done, inspired by TG Oskar's awesome non-Tome of Battle redux, so now we have twice the flavor for the same class, depending on if your game uses the Tome of Battle or not.

    -X
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    I'm curious about the inclusion of the spear as a method of bladesinging, given that you can only do extra damage with it, not get the AC boost or utilize Strike of Celerity, unless we throw in Somatic Weaponry, which doesn't seem to be the case here.

    Otherwise, an intriguing reimagining of Bladesinger that I would find interesting with a Bard/Warblade, synergizing well with Song of the White Raven.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    Wow. I like this a lot. I have been planning to revise the bladesinger for my homebrew setting, but I think I'll just be stealing yours instead.

    Nitpicky:
    1. I would probably rename Spellsinger's Song to Spellsinger's Stance to make it more clear what ability is being granted.
    2. Is it intended that most of the weapons in the bladesong style get the damage and finesse benefit, but not the AC bonus?
    3. I second the question: can strike of celerity be used with a spear or an elven courtblade?
    4. I'd suggest editing the bonus feat pool to align more closely with the class theme. In particular, feats like Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude and Run seem out of place, while some feats I'd expect to see, such as Acrobatic Strike, Bounding Assault, Desert Wind Dodge, Evasive Reflexes, and Rapid Blitz are missing.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2010-01-13 at 06:12 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    Quote Originally Posted by ErrantX View Post
    Some significant editting has been done, inspired by TG Oskar's awesome non-Tome of Battle redux, so now we have twice the flavor for the same class, depending on if your game uses the Tome of Battle or not.

    -X
    Considering the idea I have...

    Base Bladesinger, Bardic Bladesinger and Sublime Bladesinger...

    Bladesinger Corps, anyone? Considering there are several Harper PrCs, and the Bladesinger originates from Faerun (but has since went to CW, and the rest is history), you could say there's more than one kind of Bladesinger.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    I'm curious about the inclusion of the spear as a method of bladesinging, given that you can only do extra damage with it, not get the AC boost or utilize Strike of Celerity, unless we throw in Somatic Weaponry, which doesn't seem to be the case here.

    Otherwise, an intriguing reimagining of Bladesinger that I would find interesting with a Bard/Warblade, synergizing well with Song of the White Raven.
    Gil-Galad was an amazing elf with a spear. Read about him That and honestly, the elven weapon selection is a little bogus, I expanded it to allow for more fun fighting styles. Bladesong supports ANY of the weapons listed (fixed it). I fixed Song of Celerity, missed that one. And agreed, Bardblades would do well here.

    Quote Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
    Wow. I like this a lot. I have been planning to revise the bladesinger for my homebrew setting, but I think I'll just be stealing yours instead.

    Nitpicky:
    1. I would probably rename Spellsinger's Song to Spellsinger's Stance to make it more clear what ability is being granted.
    2. Is it intended that most of the weapons in the bladesong style get the damage and finesse benefit, but not the AC bonus?
    3. I second the question: can strike of celerity be used with a spear or an elven courtblade?
    4. I'd suggest editing the bonus feat pool to align more closely with the class theme. In particular, feats like Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude and Run seem out of place, while some feats I'd expect to see, such as Acrobatic Strike, Bounding Assault, Desert Wind Dodge, Evasive Reflexes, and Rapid Blitz are missing.
    All weapons in the Bladesong style get the AC bonus, damage bonus, etc. Strike of Celerity too. And I fixed the feat list to your suggestions.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.G. Oskar View Post
    Considering the idea I have...

    Base Bladesinger, Bardic Bladesinger and Sublime Bladesinger...

    Bladesinger Corps, anyone? Considering there are several Harper PrCs, and the Bladesinger originates from Faerun (but has since went to CW, and the rest is history), you could say there's more than one kind of Bladesinger.
    By jove I think you've got it! Not a bad concept, actually! Why should Harpers have all the fun.

    -X
    Last edited by ErrantX; 2010-01-14 at 08:41 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    Quote Originally Posted by ErrantX View Post
    Gil-Galad was an amazing elf with a spear. Read about him That and honestly, the elven weapon selection is a little bogus, I expanded it to allow for more fun fighting styles. Bladesong supports ANY of the weapons listed (fixed it). I fixed Song of Celerity, missed that one. And agreed, Bardblades would do well here.
    I by no means was saying there should be no Spearsingers, as spear fighters are an under represented lot in my book and should be encouraged to come out and play.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    "If the bladesinger possesses the bardic music ability, he may spend one bardic music use to gain a second extra attack at the same penalty above."
    You may want to make sure that sublime chord is a no go.

    I'd need to actually sit down with it to break it, but I'd be happy to play it. Quite an accomplishment. My only major change would be to cap the CL buff at +3.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    At least make sure the identical CL boost table isn't stackable with SC. Using SC for bardic music shouldn't matter though. All things considered, this is 99% identical to what I've envisioned for my revision of the Bladesinger, and am planning on a similar one for the Battlerager (the other 2nd Ed kit that got bufu-ed in 3rd). Excellent work ErrantX.

    And for the record, spears fit perfectly with elven finesse fighters. In kung-fu, the spear is considered the grandfather of all weapons for a reason, after all ;)
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    I like. My only major question is why are the dead casting levels at 1st and 5th? It's usually 1st and 6th. Also to some of the above comments I don't know why D&D thinks Elves only use swords and bows. If you are talking Tolkien, then Elves used all manner of weapons. Gil-Galad was described as using a lance "His sword was long, his lance was keen." and he fought Sauron with a Spear "we had the mastery: for the Spear of Gil-galad and the Sword of Elendil, Aiglos and Narsil, none could withstand." I don't remember any specific Tolkien Elves using axes, but Hurin (a Human ally of the Elves in the first age) used an axe and the following lines from Durin's song of Moria were originally about Thingol's treasury in the Lay of Leithian: "There beryl, pearl, and opal pale, and metal wrought like fishes' mail, buckler and corslet, axe and sword, and gleaming spears were laid in hoard". So far as I know all the Lords of the Noldor save Erenion Gil-Galad used swords, but other weapons were used too. Also contrary to popular belief (but not against the theme of this prestige class) Tolkien Elves used shields.
    Last edited by Drolyt; 2010-01-18 at 10:42 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    The spellcasting thing?

    My mistake when reformatting the table :P

    I'm going to fix that. And I second Droyt in his analysis of elven fighting styles. Fighter/mages wouldn't use a shield, but really, shields saved your life. Alot. People used them.

    Specified that the Bladesinger's Spellsinger stance doesn't stack with Sublime Chord's booster.

    -X
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    Initial builds would make for one bad bard blade. Bard 4/Warblade 1/Bladesinger 1-5/Sublime Chord 1/Bladesinger 6-10/Abjurant Champion (maybe?) 4 would have 16th level bardic abilities, CL 17, 9th level spells, easily reachable +10 Inspire Courage with Words of Creation, and a ton of bardic music uses for use with Spellstrike, at BAB 18. I like!
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    Quote Originally Posted by KellKheraptis View Post
    Initial builds would make for one bad bard blade. Bard 4/Warblade 1/Bladesinger 1-5/Sublime Chord 1/Bladesinger 6-10/Abjurant Champion (maybe?) 4 would have 16th level bardic abilities, CL 17, 9th level spells, easily reachable +10 Inspire Courage with Words of Creation, and a ton of bardic music uses for use with Spellstrike, at BAB 18. I like!
    Does this make the class too powerful that casual optimization such as this leads to such potency?

    -X
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    Quote Originally Posted by ErrantX View Post
    Does this make the class too powerful that casual optimization such as this leads to such potency?

    -X
    No. That's really a sublime chord issue, and it's far from the worst abuse people can come up with using a class that gets you 9th level spells in 10 levels.
    Last edited by Drolyt; 2010-01-19 at 10:12 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    I like the feel of this class a lot. That said, as a DM I would probably want it toned down a bit ... i.e. lose more caster levels.

    Now if only there was a variant Bard with spellcasting based on Intelligence.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    I like the feel of this class a lot. That said, as a DM I would probably want it toned down a bit ... i.e. lose more caster levels.

    Now if only there was a variant Bard with spellcasting based on Intelligence.
    Y'mean like the Bardic Sage?
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Y'mean like the Bardic Sage?
    No, not really. The important parts of his spellcasting are still Charisma-based.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cieyrin View Post
    Y'mean like the Bardic Sage?
    Actually, I came to the conclusion that it's all or nothing. Either go Bard or go around it as a Wizard. Here's one that gets CL 17/BAB 16/18th level Bardic music without a lick of Bard/SC :

    Wizard 3/Spelldancer 2/Warblade 1/Heartfire Fanner 3/Bladesinger 10/Mindbender 1 I think that's what I came up with this morning...anyhow, meets all the good numbers with extra perks, similar to the swiftblade of it's ilk. In a gesault game this could get pretty crazy if PrC's are allowed up both sides, since between the two of them, they shouldn't miss a CL at all, while getting all that nice synergy between them and stupendous IL.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    Quote Originally Posted by ErrantX View Post
    Does this make the class too powerful that casual optimization such as this leads to such potency?

    -X
    Kell is... not a purveyor of casual optimization. He is blessed with some pretty mighty 'fu.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Kell is... not a purveyor of casual optimization. He is blessed with some pretty mighty 'fu.
    That one was pretty casual, all things considered, and ty :D The most broken combo isn't available outside of full homebrew (full Int bard base), so it's all good. A Swiftblade or JPM would be about it's equal, just with different capability, and despite being almost a match in action economy, the Bladesinger still isn't going to win rocket tag against said Swiftblade or a properly built Ultimate Mage (tm). What it does do above those others, however, is feel and function like a synergistic gish, even more so than the JPM, and that's a good thing.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    Quote Originally Posted by KellKheraptis View Post
    That one was pretty casual, all things considered, and ty :D The most broken combo isn't available outside of full homebrew (full Int bard base), so it's all good. A Swiftblade or JPM would be about it's equal, just with different capability, and despite being almost a match in action economy, the Bladesinger still isn't going to win rocket tag against said Swiftblade or a properly built Ultimate Mage (tm). What it does do above those others, however, is feel and function like a synergistic gish, even more so than the JPM, and that's a good thing.
    Yeah I agree with this guy. At any rate any DM that's worried about balance won't allow multiple prestige classes anyways, and in that scenario this class isn't unbalanced at all.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    Quote Originally Posted by KellKheraptis View Post
    That one was pretty casual, all things considered, and ty :D The most broken combo isn't available outside of full homebrew (full Int bard base), so it's all good. A Swiftblade or JPM would be about it's equal, just with different capability, and despite being almost a match in action economy, the Bladesinger still isn't going to win rocket tag against said Swiftblade or a properly built Ultimate Mage (tm). What it does do above those others, however, is feel and function like a synergistic gish, even more so than the JPM, and that's a good thing.
    I did not mean to insult your 'fu, I'm well aware of the strength of it

    But -thank you- for the above compliments (Kell and Drolyt), I was really hoping for that.

    -X
    Last edited by ErrantX; 2010-01-20 at 10:11 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    Quote Originally Posted by Drolyt View Post
    Yeah I agree with this guy. At any rate any DM that's worried about balance won't allow multiple prestige classes anyways, and in that scenario this class isn't unbalanced at all.
    Even with multiple PrC's the class is fine. I'd put it the top end of +1 Tier, along with Abjurant Champion. And as for DM's that limit players to only one PrC, they basically render gish inoperable other than duskblades, and 1)leave this and all other gish PrC's that lose CL at -1243 tiers, and 2)better have a bloody good reason for deliberately gimping everyone, and especially an entire subset of the game. IMO, if they're that concerned about "balance," they'd keep it in core anyway, where you can at least make a 16/9th's gish (at least I think you can...).

    And ErrantX, no insult to it :D I figured Sublime Chord was where everyone would take the PrC if starting bard, as it has the means of achieving 9th level spells while keeping BAB high and getting high bardic abilities. It wasn't until last night that I realized I could do the same thing using roughly the skeleton of (hybrid of the elven swiftblade build and the king of combustion) to get a similar result using Heartfire Fanner as the glue to it all. Heck, given access to mirror move, you could even go spear specialty and then play the "Spearsinger" as an elite elven 'Hood.
    Last edited by KellKheraptis; 2010-01-20 at 10:22 AM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    Quote Originally Posted by KellKheraptis View Post
    Even with multiple PrC's the class is fine. I'd put it the top end of +1 Tier, along with Abjurant Champion. And as for DM's that limit players to only one PrC, they basically render gish inoperable other than duskblades, and 1)leave this and all other gish PrC's that lose CL at -1243 tiers, and 2)better have a bloody good reason for deliberately gimping everyone, and especially an entire subset of the game. IMO, if they're that concerned about "balance," they'd keep it in core anyway, where you can at least make a 16/9th's gish (at least I think you can...).
    Not allowing multiple prestige classes is actually recommended in the DMG, but for some reason they don't make it a rule. Making gishes weaker is just as well, they outshine fighters even if all you have access to is Eldritch Knight. When I DM I usually allow non-core but you have to get it approved first. Balance isn't all important, but you have to at least keep the party balanced enough that everyone feels useful, and if your game includes a PvP element it becomes much more important. Also a Wizard 8/Fighter 2/Eldritch Knight 10 only loses 3 caster levels and has a base attack bonus of 16, so at 20th level they are at least as strong as Clerics in core, no need for multiple prestige classes.
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    Default Re: [3.5] The Bladesinger (redux) [PrC, ToB]

    Quote Originally Posted by Drolyt View Post
    Not allowing multiple prestige classes is actually recommended in the DMG, but for some reason they don't make it a rule. Making gishes weaker is just as well, they outshine fighters even if all you have access to is Eldritch Knight. When I DM I usually allow non-core but you have to get it approved first. Balance isn't all important, but you have to at least keep the party balanced enough that everyone feels useful, and if your game includes a PvP element it becomes much more important. Also a Wizard 8/Fighter 2/Eldritch Knight 10 only loses 3 caster levels and has a base attack bonus of 16, so at 20th level they are at least as strong as Clerics in core, no need for multiple prestige classes.
    That's never one I've seen enforced. It must be a playstyle thing, as I've never had a problem with anyone taking as many PrC's as they wanted, though if fluff is important in a particular game, they at least have to come up with a cogent reason why they have X PrC when everything else seems to fit Y or Z for R levels. Beyond that, have at it.

    To ErrantX though, the fact that it would be a hard choice between springing for that last point of BAB at the expense of 9th level spells is a pretty good indicator it's even balanced enough for a moderate power game. The fact that I had to ponder whether I'd go ToB with Bladesinger or Speed Freak with Swiftblade means it's also balanced on the upper end of the spectrum. Ironically it was the combination of synergy and defense that tips the scales for the Bladesinger, as there are few ways to utterly do away with an AMF with the former. It's a single maneuver for a Bladesinger, which also fits the elven theme of superior understanding of magic (and yes...flame away, I'm an elf player).
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