Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

[HandofShadows]

Stanley destroyed FAQ, and Wanda (and Jack) willingly went into his service because they hated the place, the king, or both. Ansom never heard of FAQ, never went there, had absolutely zero contact with the place. The pliers being attuned to Wanda is awesome but she never had them prior to Ansom's death. What Ansom 'took' from her is Jillian.

Ansom never knew about the relationship between Jillian and Wanda. So his reaction would have been "What are you taking about?" instead of the guilt/fear look we did get. All evidence points to Wanda being attuned to the 'pliers before she got them on this page. Evidence #1 Wanda being able to influance them in her battle with Ansom "What did you do to it?" #2 Right before Ansom kills Wanda he pulls up shot and VERY quickly holds the 'pliers AWAY from Wanda like he was trying to protect them from her. (More like a child going "It's MINE" with something he stole from someone else) #3 Wanda in just a few minutes gets back to a Goblin Know that has been nearly destroyed and finds the 'pliers. She clearly knew their location when there was no way that she would have known their locataion, unless she was attuned to them already.

The reason I beleive this is because of Jillian's story. She indicates that the King treated people like crap, and in the same panel we can see an image of Wanda. I beleive that indicates he may have treated his casters the same way. (See : http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0091.html )

Umm. I think you need to reread that. "He treated his warlords like crap, the few that he had." "What we had where more like clercs" in reference to soldiers. However Banhammer DID seem to like casters. It was Jack, a Master Caster, that kept the place safe. And for a small side he had a fair amount of casters (a Master Foolamancer, a Master Croakmaster, and a high level Predictamancer that we know of.) The pic of Wanda comes up when Jillian is saying she say a unit from Faq working for Stanley. Banhammer was not be talked about by that point since he was dead .

The only real piece to the puzzle that I can't seem to find is the reason why Wanda is so... unquestionably loyal to Stanley. Personally I think that the predictamancer (The one who predicted the kingdom would fall) got together with Wanda and Jack and told them that they'd have a great future if they joined the Tool, or something like that.

Jack is just as loyal to Stanley as Wanda is. If Stanley HAD destroyed Faq their loyalty would be very low as per the worlds rules. But if Stanely has rescued Jack and Wanda from say.. a Jetstone invasion they would have every reason to be loyal to him even if they don't like him very much. (Wanda clearly thinks that Stanley is a PITN (If she could cast a spell to get ride of headackes, she would be casting all the time)). And Jack has an opinion not very different, but he is more tolerant.

Stanley was attacking everyone; that's how he pissed off enough people to form a coalition against him. But it's never stated that his attacks failed on everyone - I think the attack on FAQ was just one of the raids that succeeded.

As stated by Wanda, Stanley has lost EVERY battle since he stared his crusade. Now Stanley clearly has won a lot of battles, but that was when he was in the field as a warlord and working under King Saline.

[Neuromancer]

I am going to guess that Wanda's laughter is Not A Good Thing.

There's a lot we don't know, of course--is Wanda really loyal to Stanley, or using him for her own purposes? If the former, and if Stanley can get through this first period where his side consists of about ten (very powerful) units, he's poised to become more powerful than ever. Charlie just lost a lot of his best units...could a grab for the Arkendish be Stanley's next move?

If the latter (which I think is more likely, given what we know of Wanda and Stanley and their interactions), then Stanley and Wanda are immediately at odds. Will she (can she?) use this opportunity to break free of him? Perhaps even to start a new side and claim Gobwin Knob for herself?

Either way, a really interesting development!

[Yahoo_Serious]

She was identified as Janis Joplin by the readership as soon as she was first shown.

Kinda thought that, though not sure how I missed it in the search...

[T-O-E]

Sure his Capital is now officially Rubblesville,

But isn't Rubblesville a jetstone city?

[HandofShadows]

To tell the truth, I don't really think Wanda wants to rule. Go indulge her "hobbies" with Jillian yes and make uncroaked, but she does not seem to want to be a warlord/overlord. Of course getting the Arkenpliers back again might change that. Also I don't see her trying to break free of Stanley on her own. While she could match him in power, I don't she could survive Stanley disbanding her.
Now if Stanely pissed off Parson enough, Parson might get say to heck with it and rebel. If they thought he had a chance I can easily see Wanda and Sizemore supporting him all the way. Don't know what Maggie would do. Jack might follow Wanda's lead if he trusts her enough. I don't think that Pasron would try to kill Stanley, more like usurp him. And since he does not have to follow Erf rules, he might be able to pull it off.

[VariaVespasa]

where his side consists of about ten (very powerful) units

The count is, what, 6 assorted dwagons, 2 rock golems, at least 1 and maybe as many as 3 KISS (although I suspect its only the 1), a few temporary uncroaked (quality unknown but probably just the very short-lived ones from the tunnel battles and therefore nearly worthless except for a few turns of site cleanup labor), 1 master-class foolamancer, 3 more casters (do we have any definitive word on whether any of them are rated as master-class also, or no?), 1 chief warlord and 1 overlord.

I wonder how the fact that what was their basement now appears to be their roof will affect the design of the new city? :)

So 15-17 heavy units, 4 major casters, 1 warlord, 1 overlord, and a few temporary junk uncroaked infantry. Have I missed anything?

[fractal]

The count is, what, 6 assorted dwagons, 2 rock golems, at least 1 and maybe as many as 3 KISS (although I suspect its only the 1), a few temporary uncroaked (quality unknown but probably just the very short-lived ones from the tunnel battles and therefore nearly worthless except for a few turns of site cleanup labor), 1 master-class foolamancer, 3 more casters (do we have any definitive word on whether any of them are rated as master-class also, or no?), 1 chief warlord and 1 overlord.

I wonder how the fact that what was their basement now appears to be their roof will affect the design of the new city? :)

So 15-17 heavy units, 4 major casters, 1 warlord, 1 overlord, and a few temporary junk uncroaked infantry. Have I missed anything?

You just listed 8 heavies and probably 1 knight? Not 15-17 heavies. And we believe Wanda is master-class (at least), because "uncroaked led by a master-class croakamancer can dance fight".

Anyway, I think that the reason everything is so upbeat is because it's the end of the story - this is our resolution, Parson "won". However, I expect something is about to go horribly wrong with Wanda. I wonder if, when he returns, Stanley will challenge Parson, "How could you let her touch the Pliers?!"

[Anias]

Just a thought; a lot of people have been saying that it'd be best to veil GK so it looked like an active volcano, thereby keeping away nearby units/sides. I've been wondering, though, if it might not be better to veil the city as intact (or even stronger than before) to make it look like Stanley possesses a true superweapon. If his opponents think that he just used a volcano, they realize that this was a one-shot trick, and they take him out while he's weak; if they think Stanley was powerful enough to wipe out the entire RCC (several hexes worth of devastation at once) without taking any serious damage, his opponents won't dare attack. Of course, that's presuming that other sides can't tell that he's nearly out of troops, etc - how well will opposing lookamancers and findamancers do against Jack's veils?

[Kreistor]

Anias, right now people believe Stanley is no threat and are willign to break up the RCC and ignore him. Giving them something to fear will inspire a change in direction. It is better to buy time by apearing non-existent than to try to buy time by appearing unjustifiably strong.

Further, this gives time for those other factions to start beating on each other. They're all going to be trying to carve up the wealer members of the RCC now. Jetstone lost huge, and we may see the others deciding to carve that up between them, in payment for their losses at GK. That kind of infighting can only be good for teh GK side as it rebuilds. It keeps them losing units, staying weak, mutually distructful, and unprepared for the coming onslaught

[SteveMB]

Just a thought; a lot of people have been saying that it'd be best to veil GK so it looked like an active volcano, thereby keeping away nearby units/sides. I've been wondering, though, if it might not be better to veil the city as intact (or even stronger than before) to make it look like Stanley possesses a true superweapon. If his opponents think that he just used a volcano, they realize that this was a one-shot trick, and they take him out while he's weak; if they think Stanley was powerful enough to wipe out the entire RCC (several hexes worth of devastation at once) without taking any serious damage, his opponents won't dare attack. Of course, that's presuming that other sides can't tell that he's nearly out of troops, etc - how well will opposing lookamancers and findamancers do against Jack's veils?

As I noted earlier, Charlie saw everything up to the very end, and therefore knows that GK was mostly destroyed (and has every reason to assume that it was completely finished off by the eruption). Whether or not he shares this information with others (and at what price) is another question -- if and when he finds out that Parson survived, he may use that as leverage in another attempt to get Parson working for him.

[kreszantas]

One other note to the rebuilding process once Jack gets back (if they do) is that he should be actually veiling GK to still look like the rubble it became. So as you rebuild you can do it with less prying eyes looking in on you. Try to take a abandoned capitol only to end up in deep boop with a rich GK.

All kinds of trickery can be used now... just as Wanda is laughing at gaining the pliers, I am laughing the same way if I just wiped out a buddy in a HoMM5 game.

[Welf]

Yeah, this strip definitely had a "too good to be true" vibe about it, especially compared to the events and tone of the rest of the comic..

That could be the effect of the luckamancy charms from the last day finally kicking in; a lot of gravity-challanged people like Parson have a slow digestion.


The loyalty of the former Faq units is strange; maybe the predictamancer once told her that she will only find the pliers if she leaves Faq. And then Wanda sold Fay out to Stanley for the promise of the pliers. Or Wanda was never allowed to practice croakamancy in the service of Banhammer (not to mention torture and interrogation). And when Stanley captured her she had the freedom to do so. Stanley encourage his people to pursue their hobbies.

But why jack is loyal is the real mystery.

[DoctorJest]

The city was totalled right? PClips? Why haven't they reverted to barbarian status? Also, how did the uncroaked survive anyway? They are even more quishy then the regular troops.

The city wasn't CONQUERED. It even still has friendly units in it (a handful of uncroaked, 2 rock golems).

It's now just a level 0 city still controlled by Stanley's side.

[VariaVespasa]

You just listed 8 heavies and probably 1 knight? Not 15-17 heavies. And we believe Wanda is master-class (at least), because "uncroaked led by a master-class croakamancer can dance fight".

Anyway, I think that the reason everything is so upbeat is because it's the end of the story - this is our resolution, Parson "won". However, I expect something is about to go horribly wrong with Wanda. I wonder if, when he returns, Stanley will challenge Parson, "How could you let her touch the Pliers?!"

D'oh, youre right on the heavy count. For some reason I was counting the dwagons twice. See kids, this is why you dont do drugs! :P

Anias- Its not actually a 1- shot trick in point of fact. The trimancer is still available, and the volcano is still wakeable... But the best policy is to veil as a volcano rather than as rubble. If anything resembling a city hex, even a ruined one, remains, then someone will try to claim it because city sites are highly valuable, and the veil cant survive that. Charlie saw the volcano blow, in real-time, so he KNOWS that GK was trashed. Pretending to be intact wont work on him, especially with his veil-piercing vision. As a volcano hopefully nobody will come close enough to pierce the veil. As an intact city its basically inevitable.

Some people have said the city wasnt conquered because they still have a few units left in it. In fact given the usual wargame mechanics its almost certain that it would remain unconquered even if it had no units whatsoever in it, as long as GK units were the last to occupy the hex uncontested.

[DevilDan]

Here my two cents on what they should do: Produce some infantery, make them warlords by Stanley and then claim some of the lost cities. Pack the 6 dwagons with Stanley, Parson and Wanda, the new warlords for max bonus and take the last KISS knight and some uncroaked. Take the cities, leave one warlord with the newly uncroaked from Wanda and start producing units.

I doubt that under current conditions even the Tool would be so unwise as to spread a handful of resources and advertise his still-active status so blatantly. His best hope is to regain his strength. There is no way, even with two arkentools and multiple casters, that anyone would try to hold more than a single city. It would probably take multiple turns to even reach all the cities.

As an aside: we don't really know how long Parson as out, right? It could be very little time, relatively speaking, depending on the nature of the game mechanics regarding liquid-hot magma.

[Gez]

Now that the gobwins have been completely wiped out, will they still pop there on their own accord or is that natural ally depleted forever? The first is more game-like, the second would fit better with the "break the rules" thing that Parson is supposed to do according to Janis.

[Ragn Charran]

I'm not entirely convinced that this last panel is real. The whole thing seems too good to be true -- the gems, the 'pliers, Sizemoore being chipper. I'm wondering if Parson has been placed into some kind of dream-state by the 'mancers, and this is what he's dreaming about.

Remember the nature of the game though. The only way to win was to break it. Perhaps this is his in-game reward. Now that Parson has found the clever enough way to cheat, he not only won the battle, but now has a way to be victorious in the war.

[Warren]

Wanda wasn't always a member of Stanley's side.

I'll go one better on this idea: who says Wanda is currently a member of Stanley's side?

We know that Wanda is not bound to Stanley by Loyalty, and we know that she's already explicitly chosen her service to Stanley over her apparently genuine love for Jillian - even though she seems neither to like nor to respect Stanley. Maybe she had religious reasons for following him, in his possession of an attuned Arkentool, but that no longer seems to give him an advantage over her (though arguably she may now see him as a suitable consort?).

Furthermore, it's been hinted at that Wanda's not being bound to Stanley by loyalty is a big secret - there was the whole bit where the Archon volunteered the information to Jillian, causing Wanda to go nuclear on the GW airspace, and a later Archon mentioned that specific episode as indicating that providing such information when not required to do so could be a bad idea.

Way upthread, SpacemanSpif posited that Wanda might have known all about the pliers from the master-class Predictamancy that Faq possessed, which seems quite plausible. She seemed to know all about the pliers when Ansom solo'd the walls: she had a plan to disarm Ansom, she prioritized seizing the pliers over killing Ansom (a possible mistake, in retrospect), and in their final encounter she begged Ansom to touch her with the pliers, even though she was in negative hit points and his "touch" would presumably come in the form of an intended coup de grace. Maybe Wanda's entire service to Stanley and her presumed betrayal of Faq has been part of a plan made with the help of predictamancy by which she has always intended to get the pliers for herself?

Now that she's got the pliers, she may have little reason to continue following Stanley; indeed, as Stanley is now arguably the feared enemy of every faction on Erf opposing him or even just leaving him could offer her great advantages. On her own, she may have the most powerful force on Gobwin knob, with her attuned her Arkentool and her scattering of uncroaked facing a thinkamancer, an exhausted dirtamancer with a discharged volcano and two rock golems, and a warlord of uncertain stats who has been in one battle. Id doesn't seem there's any local force that could impede her departure, or indeed could prevent her from simply claiming Gobwin Knob for herself (although I think having a warlord with an undead army in an obsidian fortress has been done before).

P.S. On an entirely different note, I have no idea what turn it is, and no-one seems to know where Stanley is - his return with Dwagons and his own attuned arkentool would certainly allow him to reclaim Gobwin Knob, even if she did seize it, unless the recently croaked have in fact not yet disappeared.

[DevilDan]

We've long suspected that there is a complicated story that precedes and underlies the current erfopolitical landscape. Perhaps we will know gain a few glimpses of the truth.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I'm only seeing this headed in one direction. Charlie has his Dish and is opposed by Stanley with his Hammer. Wanda now has her Pliers (as was forseen by many) so now perhaps Jillian will get something in leather? She is often seen riding around on "gwiffons" like an irate biker chick after all AND she is the most compelling potential foil to Wanda. In any case, I do not see Parson ever getting his hands on a Tool himself since his plot relavance is not his raw power but rather his ability to overcome it. What is a story without a plot mountain to climb? The artifacts in his possession are more than enough to provide what he needs to do his job.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Have the last several strips seemed a bit disjointed to anyone else? As if there should have been at least a few other strips in between which have been excluded?

What the authors want us to belive in a story is not always the truth of what happened. Look up the term "Unreliable Narrator" sometime.

Indeed! Occasionally an author will tell the readers that an entire side has very few units which can dance fight, when he really means that every unit on that side can dance fight. On other occasions an author might tell the readers that the protagonist may not traverse a particular portal, and then immediately have the protagonist traverse that portal. And in extreme cases the author might enter the forums and say that the inconsistencies will all be explained if we just give them the time to do so. But the waiting continues, the portal has been traversed yet again, and no explanations have been forthcoming. Unless of course one is expected to believe that Parson is a Hippymancer... *barf*

I'm glad to see that Wanda and Sizemore are happy. At least someone is enjoying this.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

That reminds me to bring up the Hippymancer comment in regards to Parson. Either it was a bluff, or it wasn't. If it was, end of story. If it wasn't, I can see how it is explained in the very words of Janis herself. Parson's actions, while violent, may very well lead to actual peace in much the same way that carving up a person during surgery may lead to an extended lifespan.

[Kreistor]

Maybe Wanda's entire service to Stanley and her presumed betrayal of Faq has been part of a plan made with the help of predictamancy by which she has always intended to get the pliers for herself?

Presumed betrayal of Faq? that's the first I've heard of that theory. It isn't very consistent with Jack working for Stanley. The annihilation of Faq does not seem to be a gain for either Stanley or Wanda in this case. Though possible, I don't see much motive for such an action. It also doesn't explain Ansom's ownership of the Pliers that he seems to have taken from Wanda. Possible, but I don't think very likely.

If you really want to talk about that, check out alternate theories in this thread.

[Anias]

Anias, right now people believe Stanley is no threat and are willign to break up the RCC and ignore him. Giving them something to fear will inspire a change in direction. It is better to buy time by apearing non-existent than to try to buy time by appearing unjustifiably strong.

Well, yes and no. I admit, as you (and a few others by now) have mentioned, making the city look intact isn't going to work, since Charlie knows the city got taken out. Of course, he probably won't share that info for free, but it's not worth risking anything on the bet that others won't pay him to find out what happened. And trying to buy time to rebuild is a good idea, and central to GK's survival. That being said, the RCC broke up not because they don't fear Stanley, but because all the coalition troops DIED. And while no other side might fear Stanley now, they're definitely not going to ignore him. He's currently got fewer troops than they do, doesn't have a strong base or fortifications to fall back on, and he's got a TWO Tools they might be able to obtain (plus several useful casters and a warlord who would all be very valuable to capture). Certainly no side sacrificed all its troops to the coalition - not all of them ever truly believed in the threat Stanley represented, and the RCC would never have existed at all without Ansom's urging and hatred for Stanley. At a minimum, each side will still have a strong defense in each of its cities, and several might be willing to risk the loss of a city in order to obtain an wait, TWO arkentools, an elite warlord, and a handful of master-class casters.

And with so many people interested in Stanley, his Tools and his few remaining troops, at least a few of those sides are going to have lookamancers (or findamancers - I don't know which would be better) hunting him down. And Charlie, of course, knows as well as anyone the value of the remaining GK troops and their artifacts...and his archons can, apparently, travel fast, fly, and see through veils. So it seems unlikely that the veil will be of an intact GK, but it is equally unlikely that Stanley will be ignored, given the immense value he, his artifacts, and his remaining troops represent.

[SteveMB]

That being said, the RCC broke up not because they don't fear Stanley, but because all the coalition troops DIED. And while no other side might fear Stanley now, they're definitely not going to ignore him.

If they think his capital is destroyed, why not? Given what they know, Vinny's argument makes sense -- Stanley can't maintain himself as a barbarian for very long, so just wait him out.

That said, the new political situation is going to depend on each side's remaining strength. Jetstone was by far the biggest contributor in raw unit numbers, and given that Ansom (the heir and Chief Warlord of that side) provided much of the impetus it's likely that this reflects a bigger percentage of total assets than any of the other sides as well. This could put Jetstone in a vulnerable position, weakened and discredited as fingers point to blame Ansom and Jetstone generally for the debacle.

[Kreistor]

That being said, the RCC broke up not because they don't fear Stanley, but because all the coalition troops DIED.

Close, but not quite. The troops dying put the Coalition in a bad state: there were no longer any units in the Alliance. In order for the alliance to continue, they would all need to devote more troops.

The question then becomes: what goal is there for these troops? GK is destroyed, and its armies destroyed. Only Stanley remains. The only goal that remains is "Kill Stanley". That is not the goal of an army. So, the alliance ends, because no one is willing to devote more troops to a goal that an army is not good at. What you want at this point is a small hunter-killer force to track him down and finish him off, and that doesn't require assistance from other nations. They should each be able to do that alone.

[Grey Dawn]

Remember that Charlie has 10 battle calculations - he may be able to simply force Parson to tell him how easily he can crush him again.

Another thing that interest me is - does a specific high value unit come with an attuned arken item? Stanly has his dwagons, Charlie seems to use pure Archons, which have proven incredibly strong, perhaps the pliars will allow Wanda to make a new powerhouse unit as well.

[Aquillion]

If they think his capital is destroyed, why not? Given what they know, Vinny's argument makes sense -- Stanley can't maintain himself as a barbarian for very long, so just wait him out.

Vinny's argument presumed that Ansom would succeed at taking the city, though. There's no reason to think they'd believe the city was destroyed (reports coming out just mentioned a 'huge dirtamancy trap', not even a volcanic eruption. The people most likely to mistakenly think it was totally destroyed -- even if the rules make that misinterpretation possible -- are also the people most likely to be currently buried under tons of lava and rock.)

[SteveMB]

Vinny's argument presumed that Ansom would succeed at taking the city, though. There's no reason to think they'd believe the city was destroyed (reports coming out just mentioned a 'huge dirtamancy trap', not even a volcanic eruption. The people most likely to mistakenly think it was totally destroyed -- even if the rules make that misinterpretation possible -- are also the people most likely to be currently buried under tons of lava and rock.)

There are at least two ways to get a look at the site (flying scout units or Lookamancy -- probably the former because they seem to be a lot more readily available). An insufficiently careful look would show the site as completely ruined. When Stanley gets back with Jack in tow, that impression can be reinforced by veiling.

That said, someone sufficiently motivated to continue chasing Stanley (e.g. Jillian, if she can break away from the Transylvito group somehow) might try looking for him there.

[Kreistor]

A Foolamancer/Thinkamancer combo stops scouts cold. Those that see through the veil get mind-boggled by the Thinkamancer. Makes up for the lack of Predictamancer or Lookamancer to see the enemy coming.