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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreistor View Post
    Under his control, yes, but still barbarian with no cities. There have been no comments about being barbarian yet, and I doubt Parson wouldn't say something like, "So I guess the spell lets me be a barbarian, at least," or "So this is what being a barbbarian feels like." No, I'm leaning towards them still having a side. This is further evidence that Stanley has a hidden city, and that would consistent with Stanley rebuilding or never destroying Faq. It's still a bubble nation, unknown by all, and would fit the situation perfectly.
    GK is still a city and is still under Stanley's control. The City HEX has never been conquered and has remained occupied by friendly troops. Granted, the city defenses are all gone, but the city hex is still there.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    A coalition is not a side, it is an alliance of sides. Allied sides share the same turn. I am starting to think that warlords can lead troops of allied sides (it would remove the necessity of massive numbers of warlords in a coalition, it would allow troops from multiple sides to stack together, etc).
    I forget... didn't Transylvito's task force have its own (or Transylvito's own) turn?
    Last edited by DevilDan; 2009-04-22 at 03:19 PM.
    Quo vadis?

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    I just wonder though. Knowing all that good stuff that happened, although hard to take, would make any commander happy. Hell if that happened in my games I would be yelling Oh Yeah as if I were Kool-Aid himself.

    Does he know what is supposed to happen after this plan that will negate everything? It was a plan he formulated before he was summoned as he himself stated. So would an outside the box plan have an outside the box consequence?

    Or better yet does he just know that this was supposed to happen and realizes how much of erfworld is really his own?
    Last edited by Kholdstare; 2009-04-22 at 03:35 PM.
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  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDan View Post
    I forget... didn't Transylvito's task force have its own (or Transylvito's own) turn?
    It had a turn distinct from the RCC, but whether it was Transylvito's turn or Jillian's turn is unknown.

    Remember, at that point TV et al were not part of the RCC.

    Either there is some way of determining which turn an alliance will act on before it is formed or TV, Jillian, and Charlie all happen to have their turns before GK. The former is far more likely.

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    It had a turn distinct from the RCC, but whether it was Transylvito's turn or Jillian's turn is unknown.
    Actually, that is a good point. The rule seems to be that you can only take 1 turn per day and alliances take their turn together.

    Travsylvito has a turn that occurs before GK, and so if the alliance was dissolved before nightfall (which seems reasonable), then the current day's ordering should be based on each sides natural position.

    However, Travsylvito seem to be more interested in finding Faq, than in going to GK, so even if they move before Stanley, they are unlikely to chase him. Jillian, OTOH, would want to.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    It had a turn distinct from the RCC, but whether it was Transylvito's turn or Jillian's turn is unknown.

    Remember, at that point TV et al were not part of the RCC.

    Either there is some way of determining which turn an alliance will act on before it is formed or TV, Jillian, and Charlie all happen to have their turns before GK. The former is far more likely.
    What I'm driving at is that we have little information that would help us draw clear-cut distinctions between a "side" and a coalition or alliance. Take barbarians: why wouldn't a barbarian be able to take a city? They certainly seem to have their own turns and their own purses. I think that suggesting that the RCC couldn't take a city in the name of the RCC itself is overreaching.
    Quo vadis?

  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Wouldn't it be just awesome if the tardy elves showed up Gobwin Knob right now for the win?

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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by HandofShadows View Post
    This is also seems to confirms part of the thoery that Ansome destroyed Faq. If the pliers where Wanda's he would have HAD to take out Faq to get them. As evidence that Wanda was attuned to the 'pliers in Faq, we just have to point to Wanda going and finding the 'pliers is a short period of time without knowing where they where when GK blew. In other words she sensed where they where, just about proof positive that she was already attuned to them (then add in Wanda was able to influence them she fought Ansome).
    If Wanda were the original owners of the pliers. I would think Jillian would have recognized them on Ansom and asked a few pointed questions.
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  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by raphfrk View Post
    Actually, that is a good point. The rule seems to be that you can only take 1 turn per day and alliances take their turn together.

    Travsylvito has a turn that occurs before GK, and so if the alliance was dissolved before nightfall (which seems reasonable), then the current day's ordering should be based on each sides natural position.

    However, Travsylvito seem to be more interested in finding Faq, than in going to GK, so even if they move before Stanley, they are unlikely to chase him. Jillian, OTOH, would want to.
    The Transylvito/Jillian alliance was distinct from the RCC, so the RCC disolving has no effect on them. They are still acting in concert prior to Gobwin Knob's turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDan View Post
    What I'm driving at is that we have little information that would help us draw clear-cut distinctions between a "side" and a coalition or alliance. Take barbarians: why wouldn't a barbarian be able to take a city? They certainly seem to have their own turns and their own purses. I think that suggesting that the RCC couldn't take a city in the name of the RCC itself is overreaching.
    My (potentially flawed) understanding, based on how the words are typically used, and mapped onto the game-based nature of Erf:
    A side is a group of units ruled by a single overlord.
    An alliance is between two sides (note that Charlie allied with Jetstone, not with the RCC).
    A coalition is a collection of mutually-allied sides acting towards a common goal.

    Barbarians, it would seem to me, are sides that do not have a city (this could include groups like Gobwins, Marbits, etc.) and as such would be able to claim a city (what did I say that implied otherwise?).

    Also, as I said earlier, from a game-mechanics perspective it seems far more likely that coalitions (or alliances, for that matter) cannot hold cities jointly.
    Last edited by fendrin; 2009-04-22 at 05:12 PM. Reason: trimmed the fat

  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by Kholdstare View Post
    Does he know what is supposed to happen after this plan that will negate everything? It was a plan he formulated before he was summoned as he himself stated. So would an outside the box plan have an outside the box consequence?
    I suspected earlier in the thread that this may be why things are suddenly so rosy - yeah GK is trashed but the RCC army was wiped out, GK is now rich, Parson survived the Magic Kingdom, the Trimancer was broken apart safely, Wanda got the pliers (although that may not turn out so rosy, as many here speculate - speculation I agree with at this time), and the Tool is coming home with some dwagons and a foolamancer (again, maybe not so rosy!). Outside of the box plan, carrying in outside of the box risks, should come with outside of the box rewards. And since the gambit worked, the rewards are significant.
    Last edited by Ragn Charran; 2009-04-22 at 05:25 PM. Reason: Clarifying a bit

  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    The crucial point to remember is that Erfworld runs according to game rules not real life. Game rules are an abstraction of real life, designed to make the game playable, and are not necessarily realistic.

    If you want sausages and fried eggs for breakfast in real life, someone has to keep chickens and pigs, wait for them to lay eggs or be slaughtered, and so on. In the game, the breakfast simply pops out of mid-air in front of you at dawn.

    Similarly, dead bodies disappear during the nightly maintenance phase, and new units also pop at dawn.

    It's quite possible the rules allow a city to exist as a special designation of a hex, without any structures or garrison. In one ruleset, the city could be levelled up overnight by payment of the build cost. It's also possible that the building rules to assign costs and build times to units and structures, and building a city would take days.

    In other rules, an alliance or coalition is obviously a collection of separate sides who are able to move in the same turn and stack their units together without a fight occuring.

    However, non-allied sides can co-operate outside the rules, which is exactly what the Transylvito-Jillian battlegroup was doing when Ansom broke the alliance with Transylvito and sent them on the Faq raid. He did this specifically to gain the advantage of Transylvito as a separate side having an earlier turn than Stanley.

    Going further, barbarians are obviously sides that have a ruler or warlord but do not have a city. They pay maintenance from a warchest filled up by loot and mercenary pay rather than regular income from cities. There may be a class of side which does not have cities but has some other kind of home region -- elves and gobwins could fall into this class.

    It's not clear what the encumbrance rules are governing the carriage of the warchest. Early on, Wanda warned Stanley that he could not carry away the GW 500,000 schmuckers warchest if Anson conquered the city, however Wanda was able to carry 350,000 schmuckers to pay for the summoning spell. There is probably a kind of clearing bank system and she actually carried a bearer's bond rather than physical money. When GK captured Jillian, they did not take her warchest off her, which implies it was not physically carried by her.

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by ishnar View Post
    If Wanda were the original owners of the pliers. I would think Jillian would have recognized them on Ansom and asked a few pointed questions.
    not necessarily - Jillian was always off on mercenary missions. It may have happened recently, may not have been public knowledge, etc.

    but keep in mind these arent' 'real' people - just characters in a story. We will have to wait for Rob and Jamie to fill in the backstory on FAQ. It could all just be a minor plot device for them to tell the story of Parson at the Battle of Gobwin Knob and we are reading too much into it.
    Last edited by joosy; 2009-04-22 at 11:03 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDan View Post
    Yes, I suppose they could have already been divvied up. But whether the RCC can claim a city is an unknown. Wouldn't Ansom have at least nominally taken GK in the name of the RCC or would he take it necessarily under Jetsone? That hardly seems politically expedient. If the RCC is a "side," I assume it can also "take" a city.
    A side needs a Ruler. Seen one for RCC?

    If RCC could claim a city, what happens whent he side dissolves? At that point, any units in the city that are unlead are required to autoattack any non-allied sides. Taking the city and holding it as a Coalition is dangeruos and unnecessary. It also implies a kindliness between sides that we have very little evidence of. Erfworld is a place of war, not kinder-gentlerness.

    I assumed that GK could still be taken over easily by Parson and company (under Stanley).
    Big assumption. Seiges are usually long drawn out affairs without seige weapons. Attakers can be 10:1 vs defenders and still not be ssured of victory.

    I guess money isn't an issue for them at the moment, but I wonder if the treasury survived as such...
    Since Sizmore did have some control over the explosion, it's much more possible now than one comic ago.

    I still don't know if the action in this strip is occurring at dawn or dusk.
    Irrelevant. All turns are over at this point. Using the Portal to MK does not seem to count as movement, and can be done off turn. (Wanda mentions that it became their turn while she and Sizemore were in MK.)

    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorJest
    GK is still a city and is still under Stanley's control. The City HEX has never been conquered and has remained occupied by friendly troops. Granted, the city defenses are all gone, but the city hex is still there.
    Sizemore changed the terrain type. If it was previously city, it is now...?

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilkrazy View Post
    The crucial point to remember is that Erfworld runs according to game rules not real life. Game rules are an abstraction of real life, designed to make the game playable, and are not necessarily realistic.
    Sizemore would break if he knew the "rules" of the world Parson comes from, and the wars that had been fought in it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Roamer View Post
    I think he did the only morally acceptable thing by killing everyone.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreistor View Post
    A side needs a Ruler. Seen one for RCC?
    I didn't even know that there was such a thing as a ruler. We've seen overlords and chief warlords. (And I must have missed the exact point at which a "side" was defined.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreistor View Post
    If RCC could claim a city, what happens whent he side dissolves? At that point, any units in the city that are unlead are required to autoattack any non-allied sides. Taking the city and holding it as a Coalition is dangeruos and unnecessary. It also implies a kindliness between sides that we have very little evidence of. Erfworld is a place of war, not kinder-gentlerness.
    Presumably units can somehow interact without being part of an alliance. Actually, the existence of the RCC shows that diplomacy and some form of non-battle interaction is possible in some form. Anyway, I'm sure that a non-violent way of handing over control of a a city could be devised.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreistor View Post
    Big assumption. Seiges are usually long drawn out affairs without seige weapons. Attakers can be 10:1 vs defenders and still not be ssured of victory.
    It was an assumption based on no one having taken over GK in the interim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreistor View Post
    Since Sizmore did have some control over the explosion, it's much more possible now than one comic ago.
    Mostly I wonder about what a treasure is, and how much of it is magical/virtual vs. physical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreistor View Post
    Irrelevant. All turns are over at this point. Using the Portal to MK does not seem to count as movement, and can be done off turn. (Wanda mentions that it became their turn while she and Sizemore were in MK.)
    Just curiosity.
    Quo vadis?

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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by exi1ed0ne View Post
    Wouldn't it be just awesome if the tardy elves showed up Gobwin Knob right now for the win?
    Tardy Elves already won.
    "If I could just interrupt your stunningly dysfunctional group dynamic for a moment to interject." -- Erfworld

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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    I can't help but wonder...

    In wargames, if one side achieves a unique goal, all the sides get a system message informing them of it.

    Someone builds a world wonder, everyone knows it next turn.
    Someone discovers an artifiact, everyone knows it next turn.

    So I wonder if everyone just got a system message that Wanda attuned to the pliers.
    "If I could just interrupt your stunningly dysfunctional group dynamic for a moment to interject." -- Erfworld

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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreistor View Post
    Irrelevant. All turns are over at this point. Using the Portal to MK does not seem to count as movement, and can be done off turn. (Wanda mentions that it became their turn while she and Sizemore were in MK.)
    Some one-shot character (clearly a caster not affiliated with Stanley's side) uses a portal just before Wanda and Sizemore do (and after Wanda states that their turn has begun). So, the fact that Magic Kingdom portals can be used off-turn is established from their first introduction.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDan View Post
    I didn't even know that there was such a thing as a ruler. We've seen overlords and chief warlords. (And I must have missed the exact point at which a "side" was defined.)
    Sides are ruled by a single Overlord. And a side doesn't need to have a capital. We also know that Ruler is synonymous with Overlord. And before you doubt that, you better read that Klog thoroughly.

    So what do we know about a Side? They require a Ruler, but not a capital. Ruler sets production orders. Sides ruled by Royals can pop Noble and Royal units. Royal Sides can split off and form new Royal empires. A Ruler can choose an heir, which does not need to be Royal if ruled by a Royal. Sides that ally take the Turn of whoever is the last in the Alliance to normally take Turn.

    Really, what more could we want to know?

    Dan, you should know all of this already. Haven't you been paying attention?

    Presumably units can somehow interact without being part of an alliance.
    Only when in the presence of a leader. And you know that. So I'm done hunting through the strips for you.

    I don't care about anything else you said. I don't know if this was a test, or you just being belligerent, or maybe you laughing because you can make me hunt through comics to prove things. But you just let me rip your insides out, revealing a lack of knowledge that I know you don't have, and an apparent ignorance of even the basics that we've been able to figure out. And it was easy. What are you trying to achieve by denying even the basics from the Klogs? I have no interest in proving things to you that are blatant in the Klogs. All I can say is to go back, reread the strip from the beginning, and try to learn what you seem to have forgotten.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by greywords View Post
    Never underestimate the power of hippimancer hugs.
    I'm sure Sizemore did lots of hugs with the Hippiemancers.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by joosy View Post
    Good catch! It either a drawing error (it was at the very beginning of the strip) OR we have identified another FAQ survivor/defector.
    You forgot the third option, which is that the theory behind the eyes is wrong. It is never explicitly stated in the comic, as far as I am aware, and may just be an artistic choice. Until we hear something more on the matter, we just don't know.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreistor View Post
    Irrelevant. All turns are over at this point. Using the Portal to MK does not seem to count as movement, and can be done off turn. (Wanda mentions that it became their turn while she and Sizemore were in MK.)

    Sizemore changed the terrain type. If it was previously city, it is now...?
    It was said somewhere (Facebook?) by one of the authors that it is now morning, and that the night was spent in MK - thus the campfire scene.

    I don't think "city" is a terrain type - typically a "terrain" is plain, hills, mountain, volcano, sea, grassland, forest, lake, river, etc.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    We know that a leader of one faction can lead troops from another faction if theyre allied with that other faction. Evidence- Ansom applying his bonus to the courtyard dancefight and the donut of doom assault, Webinars comment to Ansom about "Why me? There are warlords with much higher ratings in the alliance.", and Ceasar applying his (chief warlord) bonus to Jillian in the fight at the pass.

    Barbarians can take cities- this was explicitly Stanleys plan in heading to Faq.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by VariaVespasa View Post
    Barbarians can take cities- this was explicitly Stanleys plan in heading to Faq.
    1) He wasn't a barbarian yet, and may have reached Faq before he got there.
    2) Faq may not be destroyed. Jillian has never been there since it fell.
    3) If destroyed, Faq may have already been rebuilt. This would explain why the otehrs are still on Side: the side didn't die with GK because Stanley had his pet bubble city in reserve, which no one knew about for the same reason no one knew about it before.

    We can't trust Jillian's statements about Faq. She may have been lying about what was on the other side of the Pass. And her knowledge of its current state is woefully unreliable.

    But Ansom tells us that Jillian could have gone to Faq and started a Side. So, yes, a Barbarian can start a Side and become a Ruler.

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    smile Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by ishnar View Post
    Tardy Elves already won.
    True, true.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreistor View Post
    Possible, but it was populated by non-living entities. Even a village needs a population of 1.
    In Civ you can leave a city empty and it stays yours if no one else enters it. Not a good idea, though.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight Roamer View Post
    You forgot the third option, which is that the theory behind the eyes is wrong. It is never explicitly stated in the comic, as far as I am aware, and may just be an artistic choice. Until we hear something more on the matter, we just don't know.
    I think with the amount of detail put into the comic, they would have had non-FAQ units other than Parson with actual pupils. Jamie goes out of his way to color in Ansom's eyes even in large close-ups. Same for other non-FAQ units. This detail is not just one time. Every time a FAQ unit is displayed, they have pupils. Every time a non-FAQ unit (with the exception of Parson) they are shown with oval eyes with no pupils. Yes, it could just be artistic choice, but given the detail and pre-planning that went into this graphic novel I highly doubt it is unintentional.
    Last edited by joosy; 2009-04-22 at 11:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreistor View Post
    Sizemore changed the terrain type. If it was previously city, it is now...?
    You're assuming "city" is a terrain type.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by kunsttyv View Post
    Ok. Let me crack down on some wild theories. (and perhaps make some new...)

    Wanda is currently on the same side as the Tool. If she wasn't, the single dragon she rode to uncroak Manpower would have autoattacked her. (It would not have been lead, and in proximity to a foreign unit) There are more incidents that would be severely inconsistent if she was not on the Tools side.
    Since I enjoy defending the viability of unlikely theories... Wanda could be a barbarian allied with Stanley. It would explain why she doesn't have to laugh at his jokes. I believe Stanley has only threatened to end her life, not specifically to disband her. He could have meant he'd do it the hard way.

    A sillier explanation for why she doesn't normally laugh - which I know doesn't really need to be explained - is that Duty usually compels her not to frighten the bejesus out of every friendly unit within earshot. Her present laughing is evidence that her Ruler is now herself / the Arkenpliers / the Titans and she is no longer on the same side as Parson, Maggie and Sizemore, so she is free to terrorize them.

    Seriously, if I were Parson, I would order the golems to be summoned, for Maggie to order the uncroaked to separate from each other and stay away from Wanda (I don't know if she can control them at a distance), and for Maggie to surreptitiously examine whether Wanda is still loyal. And I'd draw my sword before Wanda showed up, so she wouldn't see it as a reaction to her. Better safe than sorry, as long as Wanda doesn't catch on that you're suspicious of her. I doubt she'd pick up subtle clues in her ecstatic state.

    Quote Originally Posted by ishnar View Post
    If Wanda were the original owners of the pliers. I would think Jillian would have recognized them on Ansom and asked a few pointed questions.
    Jillian first saw Ansom with the pliers long before we joined the story. He could have said he got them from one of Stanley's warlords - though then I would have expected her to cite it as evidence of Stanley's connection to the destruction of Faq, in addition to the dwagon overflight message.

    A wilder theory is that Jillian's sword is a better weapon than non-attuned pliers, and Jillian sold the pliers to him. In fact, Wanda might be assuming Jillian gave them to him as a gift, such that she didn't even distinguish between losing Jillian to Ansom and losing the pliers to Ansom when she berated him.

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    Barbarians, it would seem to me, are sides that do not have a city (this could include groups like Gobwins, Marbits, etc.) and as such would be able to claim a city (what did I say that implied otherwise?).
    For example, the Gobwins briefly taking over Gobwin Knob.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 155 -- tBfGK 142

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreistor View Post
    Sides are ruled by a single Overlord. And a side doesn't need to have a capital. We also know that Ruler is synonymous with Overlord. And before you doubt that, you better read that Klog thoroughly.

    So what do we know about a Side? They require a Ruler, but not a capital. Ruler sets production orders. Sides ruled by Royals can pop Noble and Royal units. Royal Sides can split off and form new Royal empires. A Ruler can choose an heir, which does not need to be Royal if ruled by a Royal. Sides that ally take the Turn of whoever is the last in the Alliance to normally take Turn.

    Really, what more could we want to know?

    Dan, you should know all of this already. Haven't you been paying attention?



    Only when in the presence of a leader. And you know that. So I'm done hunting through the strips for you.

    I don't care about anything else you said. I don't know if this was a test, or you just being belligerent, or maybe you laughing because you can make me hunt through comics to prove things. But you just let me rip your insides out, revealing a lack of knowledge that I know you don't have, and an apparent ignorance of even the basics that we've been able to figure out. And it was easy. What are you trying to achieve by denying even the basics from the Klogs? I have no interest in proving things to you that are blatant in the Klogs. All I can say is to go back, reread the strip from the beginning, and try to learn what you seem to have forgotten.
    I had forgotten that ruler is used interchangeably with overlord. As for the rest, your generosity in pointing out the tangential is notable. All I'm suggesting is that we certainly don't know at which points the RCC was different from a regular "side" (or the significance of those differences which we believe we've identified). Why couldn't the RCC's leader function as a de facto overlord/ruler?

    What you so lovingly detail are the functions of an overlord. How that helps us answer the question of what happened to the cities that Stanley lost is a bit beyond me.

    You asked what happens when the RCC dissolves if it's claimed a city: All I'm suggesting is that I'm sure they can figure out a way to handle that without bloodshed. That would include the presence of leaders: I didn't think that I needed to point out something that obvious.
    Last edited by DevilDan; 2009-04-23 at 01:56 AM.
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