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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: New Star Trek Movie

    Quote Originally Posted by GoC View Post
    They are expendable. The reason a life has value is because it is unique and irreplacable and it's destruction would cause immense sadness to those around it.
    The individual Jem-Hadar is not unique, it's life is virtually identical to that of 1000 others. Noone will mourn it's passing.
    I think Deep Space Nine actually did a good job of showing individual Jem'Hadar. There was the Jem'Hadar child, a couple Jem'Hadar with honor (the one who killed Weyoun for questioning his loyalty, the one who refused to kill Worf, the one who went into a trap knowing it was a trap), and a rebel Jem'Hadar (the one who was immune to ketracell white) off the top of my head. A lot of times they are faceless mooks, but there are a few that have developed beyond the usual super soldier.

    That was actually the stupidest moment in the series. It removed the main limits on replicator technology and left you wondering why the heck the Federation hasn't launched a series of Von Newmann probes and created fleets of a billion warships?
    Well, Star Trek has a history of not always thinking through the technology. Another episode had a sniper rifle that could see through walls and would teleport bullets. Just think about the ramifications for privacy of an easy way to look through walls. Never mind the timeship that could erase anything from time and was nigh-invulnerable.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joran View Post
    the one who refused to kill Worf, the one who went into a trap knowing it was a trap
    Those guys both got such excellent lines.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    I imagine it might; the only problem is, I think I couldn't help comparing it with Babylon 5 all the time, and in that comparison, it would still lose. That much I do remember of it.
    As a fan of both Babylon 5 and DS9, I'd recommend seeing them both. If you saw the first few seasons of DS9 you might have come away with a bad opinion of it, but the show really gets its stride around season 4. Oddly, this was about the same time that a certain writer left to supervise Voyager. >.>

    If nothing else, you absolutely have to see "In the Pale Moonlight."
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horatio@Bridge View Post
    As a fan of both Babylon 5 and DS9, I'd recommend seeing them both. If you saw the first few seasons of DS9 you might have come away with a bad opinion of it, but the show really gets its stride around season 4. Oddly, this was about the same time that a certain writer left to supervise Voyager. >.>

    If nothing else, you absolutely have to see "In the Pale Moonlight."
    Which writer?

    There are a couple great episodes even early on in DS9. Duet, the accused Cardassian war criminal and The Wire, where we get a lot of Garak are seasons 1 and 2.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    DS9 and Babylon 5 are both two of my favorite series. Watch them both. They are great.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    I think Winterwind has an excellent point. Star Trek has trouble with the implied contradiction between "inclusive future for everyone with lots of tolerance" and "Ah, look at how quaint all those irrational aliens are for not adopting our social model. See how they would be mired in savagery if not for our enlightening influence? We must be careful not to touch these cultures for fear of damaging them!"

    Quote Originally Posted by GoC View Post
    Which makes no sense btw.
    That depends on what the Vulcans really do inside their heads. The fact that the way the Vulcans we see think is called "logic," or translates into English as "logic," does not mean that Vulcans are intellectual superiors of humans. Among other things, it is strongly implied that rather than being emotionless by nature, Vulcans make a deliberate effort to suppress emotion through meditation and mental discipline. On the one hand, this might make them better at considering some situations dispassionately and coming up with a ruthlessly "right" answer. On the other, it could also give them a head full of mental complexes that cripple their ability to handle some kinds of situations.

    In which case there could easily be situations where a human would have no trouble picking an answer (a right answer?), but a Vulcan would be paralyzed.

    They are expendable. The reason a life has value is because it is unique and irreplacable and it's destruction would cause immense sadness to those around it. [goes on to say that this doesn't apply to Jem-Hadar
    That is a specific philosophical perspective, not a universally obvious fact. There are moral systems in which making 1000 copies of one person does not make any of the copies any less valuable, significant, or real than the original was.

    That was actually the stupidest moment in the series. It removed the main limits on replicator technology and left you wondering why the heck the Federation hasn't launched a series of Von Newmann probes and created fleets of a billion warships?
    It's not hard to come up with answers to that. The most notable reasons might be:
    -Fear of the effects of replicator malfunctions. Normal replicator technology is not dangerous because it can't create enormous numbers of anything without a specific order to do so, and because it doesn't go searching for raw materials to make copies with. Von Neumann machines do.
    -Human factors. Federation ships are typically designed to require crews, with good reason- the Federation has already had at least one disastrous experience with a pure AI-controlled ship. As in "lost a Constitution-class with all hands" disastrous. But there's no point in building a billion ships if you're not prepared to train a billion crews.
    -Size limits. A practical limit on the maximum mass that can be replicated in one go is a sharp limit on how fast you could build vast replicated warfleets.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    I'm just going to go see it because of Sylar & Simon Pegg.

    Yes, I know, I'm a Philistine.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    So...was I the only person who liked Enterprise? Discounting about the first season (which I do for pretty much ANY show, since the actors are still getting to know their characters) I rather enjoyed it. I'm aware that it did all sorts of unholy things to continuity, but I don't care - the stories they were told were fun and ST has never had continuity as its strong point anyway. I considered the ST:E series to effectively be a reboot of canon in any case. Viewed through that lens, so the obsessive types can unbunch their panties, I put the last two seasons of ST:E just behind seasons 4-5 of ST:TNG and the Dominion War story arc in the "best Trek" category.

    I felt that Archer had a good balance between James "I sleep with and/or shoot it" Kirk, and Jean-luc "let's talk about our feelings over a cup of Earl Gray, hot" Picard. And while the Temporal Cold War thing got old and, like all Time Travel plots, made for messy bookkeeping (I was half expecting Archer to be his own grandfather), the third and fourth season had a pleasant and irreverent spirit to them. The Mirror Universe episodes are, I thought, easily in the top 10 ST episodes of all time. Yet all I see on the 'net is "Enterprise was horrible and every involved should be shot in the face for daring to participate". What gives?

    (For the record, the series finale was a slap in the face. The cast planned to refuse to film it, and I echo the words of Jolene Baylock...the finale was "appalling". I pin this one entirely on Berman & Braga, and it's telling that I can't find ANY positive feedback on the episode, from cast, crew, of fans, other than that B&B themselves provided.)
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    No, but Swordguy appears to have studied people who are. And took notes.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordguy View Post
    So...was I the only person who liked Enterprise? Discounting about the first season (which I do for pretty much ANY show, since the actors are still getting to know their characters) I rather enjoyed it. I'm aware that it did all sorts of unholy things to continuity, but I don't care - the stories they were told were fun and ST has never had continuity as its strong point anyway. I considered the ST:E series to effectively be a reboot of canon in any case. Viewed through that lens, so the obsessive types can unbunch their panties, I put the last two seasons of ST:E just behind seasons 4-5 of ST:TNG and the Dominion War story arc in the "best Trek" category.

    I felt that Archer had a good balance between James "I sleep with and/or shoot it" Kirk, and Jean-luc "let's talk about our feelings over a cup of Earl Gray, hot" Picard. And while the Temporal Cold War thing got old and, like all Time Travel plots, made for messy bookkeeping (I was half expecting Archer to be his own grandfather), the third and fourth season had a pleasant and irreverent spirit to them. The Mirror Universe episodes are, I thought, easily in the top 10 ST episodes of all time. Yet all I see on the 'net is "Enterprise was horrible and every involved should be shot in the face for daring to participate". What gives?

    (For the record, the series finale was a slap in the face. The cast planned to refuse to film it, and I echo the words of Jolene Baylock...the finale was "appalling". I pin this one entirely on Berman & Braga, and it's telling that I can't find ANY positive feedback on the episode, from cast, crew, of fans, other than that B&B themselves provided.)
    I would have been happier at Enterprise if it had ended after season 2 or 3. That way, I wouldn't have given a **** if they had been cancelled or not.

    But NOO, they had the indecency of producing one of the best Star Trek season ever made (the concentration of awesome in this season is higher even than Deep Space Nine's) AND cancel.

    Season 3 was okay. The first 2 seasons weren't groundbreaking. A few episodes wreaked a lot of elements (but the acting was good).

    I have to say, I loved the realism of the MACO's combat tactic when moving around the ship. Much more intelligent than Riker&Worf's trawl in the hallways in "Nemesis", when they don't even have their phaser raised when they meet "accidently" the boarding party.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordguy View Post
    So...was I the only person who liked Enterprise? Discounting about the first season (which I do for pretty much ANY show, since the actors are still getting to know their characters) I rather enjoyed it. I'm aware that it did all sorts of unholy things to continuity, but I don't care - the stories they were told were fun and ST has never had continuity as its strong point anyway. I considered the ST:E series to effectively be a reboot of canon in any case. Viewed through that lens, so the obsessive types can unbunch their panties, I put the last two seasons of ST:E just behind seasons 4-5 of ST:TNG and the Dominion War story arc in the "best Trek" category.

    I felt that Archer had a good balance between James "I sleep with and/or shoot it" Kirk, and Jean-luc "let's talk about our feelings over a cup of Earl Gray, hot" Picard. And while the Temporal Cold War thing got old and, like all Time Travel plots, made for messy bookkeeping (I was half expecting Archer to be his own grandfather), the third and fourth season had a pleasant and irreverent spirit to them. The Mirror Universe episodes are, I thought, easily in the top 10 ST episodes of all time. Yet all I see on the 'net is "Enterprise was horrible and every involved should be shot in the face for daring to participate". What gives?

    (For the record, the series finale was a slap in the face. The cast planned to refuse to film it, and I echo the words of Jolene Baylock...the finale was "appalling". I pin this one entirely on Berman & Braga, and it's telling that I can't find ANY positive feedback on the episode, from cast, crew, of fans, other than that B&B themselves provided.)
    It's possible you're right. Season one was bad enough that I never really watched past that, and I really have no inclination to do so. I'd need a very high recommendation indeed to delve back into the sheer stupidity that marked Enterprise plots.


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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by averagejoe View Post
    It's possible you're right. Season one was bad enough that I never really watched past that, and I really have no inclination to do so. I'd need a very high recommendation indeed to delve back into the sheer stupidity that marked Enterprise plots.
    Stick to season 4, and cry.

    the Vulcan Civil War Arc, the Augment Arc, the Klingon Mutagenic Virus Arc, the Mirror Universe Arc..

    Awesome

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    Quote Originally Posted by SolkaTruesilver View Post
    Stick to season 4, and cry.

    the Vulcan Civil War Arc, the Augment Arc, the Klingon Mutagenic Virus Arc, the Mirror Universe Arc..

    Awesome
    i totally agree with you here, i thought that this season lone should have granted them a one year reprieve on the cancelling.

    as for the new move I'm hopefully optimistic.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joran View Post
    I'm confused. Are you annoyed that Janeway doesn't like the Borg? As a human, especially one raised in a society where individuality and self-actualization are immense virtues, it makes sense for her to act this way. Just like it makes sense of Vulcans to argue that logic is superior, or Klingons to argue that honor is most important, or Ferengi to argue that profit is the greatest good.
    Yes, Janeway not liking the Borg is perfectly sensible, but it's painfully obvious we are meant to agree with her. Just like the constant derision against the hive mind. No, of course the Borg cannot be creative, can only gain new insights by assimilation. Yes, of course humans outsmart Borg at every step. Etc., etc. As I said, I don't mind the attitudes of the characters in the show, it's the attitudes of the writers that annoy me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordguy View Post
    So...was I the only person who liked Enterprise?
    I watched the first three or four episodes, concluded it was more of the same stuff I had already seen in TNG and Voyager, and stopped watching. I was a bit short on time back then, or else I might have given it a bit more of a chance (I was already of pretty much the same opinion about TNG and Voyager as I am now, but I still prefer to give something a bit time to see whether it is good or not usually).
    I regretted it a bit, after hearing the latter seasons had some fairly epic and well done plots, but it was too late by then. Besides, I can do only so many things at once.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoC View Post
    They are expendable. The reason a life has value is because it is unique and irreplacable and it's destruction would cause immense sadness to those around it.
    The individual Jem-Hadar is not unique, it's life is virtually identical to that of 1000 others. Noone will mourn it's passing.
    My point was that they intentionally created (or modified, it's been a while since I have seen the episodes) an intelligent race (that they had be naturally addited to a drug they manufacture) that can think and reason for the sole purpose of using them as cannon fodder. From our present day perspective (much less the future "enlightened" perspective) this is an evil act. I should have elaborated. They also killed their smarter soldiers (Weyoun) when they screwed up and they actually had personality. Just because you can make more doesn't mean throwing them away without a second thought isn't what most people would view as evil.
    Quote Originally Posted by GoC View Post
    That was actually the stupidest moment in the series. It removed the main limits on replicator technology and left you wondering why the heck the Federation hasn't launched a series of Von Newmann probes and created fleets of a billion warships?
    As someone else already mentioned, do they even have the manpower to crew anywhere near that number of ships? They clearly don't have great AI as they still can't replicate Data and seem to continue to marvel at his existence. So, I don't believe they could easily crew the ships with some type of AI. Also, perhaps there are some unknown limits on the replicators. A self replicating mine probably isn't as complicated as a full starship (if I had to guess). I suppose the real question is why the Dominion doesn't do that (I assume they don't) because they seem to be able to churn out soldiers endlessly. I'm not saying it's perfect. I am saying it was nice to see them actually use the technology they have in a halfway intelligent way for once instead of ignoring it.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant View Post
    As someone else already mentioned, do they even have the manpower to crew anywhere near that number of ships? They clearly don't have great AI as they still can't replicate Data and seem to continue to marvel at his existence. So, I don't believe they could easily crew the ships with some type of AI.
    That was me.

    The Federation can create a tactical AI capable of running a warship in battle, and of doing it well. That was first done in the Original Series era, during the M5 incident. And Enterprise wasn't even designed to be controlled by an AI; the M5 computer was a plug-in module!

    But then M5 went ape and blew up a Constitution-class starship with all hands during the proof-of-concept training exercise.

    Given that little bit of history, and given the many other cases in which Star Trek AI went crazy (on holodecks, on androids, on holograms), we can draw some pretty strong conclusions. I think it's safe to say that in Star Trek, a stable and reliable human-level AI is the exception and not the rule. Under the circumstances, it's not surprising that the Federation is reluctant to build entirely robot warships.

    Robot mines are one thing; they have a limited ability to pose a threat to anything outside their engagement zone. Warp-capable robot battleships are another matter entirely.
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    Fun fact:

    I got tickets to a pre-screening
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flame Master Axel View Post
    Fun fact:

    I got tickets to a pre-screening
    Fun fact:

    I hate you now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiasaur11 View Post
    Fun fact:

    I hate you now.
    Let's find a way to ban him from this forum. It's the only proper punishment...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordguy View Post
    So...was I the only person who liked Enterprise? Discounting about the first season (which I do for pretty much ANY show, since the actors are still getting to know their characters) I rather enjoyed it.
    Guilty as charged. I gave it two seasons, wasn't impressed and gave up on it. My wife, who was also a big Star Trek fan, hates Scott Bacula with a passion that burn and gave up somewhere in middle of season 1.

    I think somewhere in the middle Battlestar Galactica started up and we shifted. I think I'll try to get back to Enterprise, my friend who never gave up hope did say it got better, but there is only so much room on the Netflix queue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flame Master Axel View Post
    Fun fact:

    I got tickets to a pre-screening
    No, this is the sort of situation in which we need large amounts of butter.
    Hey. Do you want to help make a game?

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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    I like the trailer, and plan on seeing the new movie at a midnight showing. IT will be the first midnight showing I have ever attended, if that tells you anything.

    As for the new film being canon or not, there is a comic book tie-in that explains a few things. Damn those pesky time travellers!
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    The trailer seems off to me. I really can't put a finger on it but something about it turns me off. Perhaps it is because it seems too busy? I don't know.

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    It has Simon Pegg in it.
    I do believe that makes it a law that I have to go see it.


    What? It's Simon Pegg!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joran View Post
    Well, Star Trek has a history of not always thinking through the technology. Another episode had a sniper rifle that could see through walls and would teleport bullets. Just think about the ramifications for privacy of an easy way to look through walls. Never mind the timeship that could erase anything from time and was nigh-invulnerable.

    Maybe all of you will enjoy these videos I found on youtube about Star Trek Mistakes... Many I already knew, many I saw for the first time and laughed my "that" off.

    Enjoy! ^^

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1chtJQFQNs

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    Babylon 5 and DS:9 are different beasts entirely

    As for treating alien cultures with respect (or none), Deep Space 9 was in my eyes a lot better than B5... B5 used alien customs for comedy consistently. When it was well done (the centauri, the minbari, although the minbari had some fairly ridiculous ones) it was good, but some of the other races... green vs. purple, the simpletons of the council of non-aligned worlds, as well as the ancients that Ivanova goaded... well, I'd say that DS:9 definitely irritated me less here.

    Both shows have their crowning moments; DS:9 has the epic dominion war battles (watching that federation fleet tear into the huge dominion force was just epic), some characters who definitely knock it up a notch (Garak, Julian, O'Brian mainly), interesting and complex villains (Gul'Dukat, Dumar, even Weyoun in his own way)... and the morally ambiguous episodes. I only saw the later seasons, and they were generally awesome.

    Babylon 5 has some great protagonists, a very well thought out overall plot (Sinclair...), good characters, very much gray morality, some great villains (Bester, Morden, Mollari/G'kar earlier in the series), some epic crowning moments of awesome (Ivanova), a shifting command staff (!). A lot of funny as well.

    And Vir Cotto. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8MjQ5Z7ZNo

    I would definitely recommend watching both.
    Last edited by Vael Nir; 2009-04-28 at 05:25 PM.

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    I found Enterprise to be pretty bad, but then again I only saw episodes from the first two seasons. Though the Agony Booth's reviews of A Night in Sickbay and Two Days and Two Nights were pretty funny. (be warned that the person who wrote the former hated Enterprise as a whole, but to be fair it's hard to defend the episode).

    Though on the subject of Star Trek reviews/recaps, I highly recommend Sci-Fi Debris's the Opinionated Star Trek Episode Guide. He mostly focuses on Voyager, but has done some in the other series too. I find him quite funny.
    Last edited by Lord Seth; 2009-04-28 at 07:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Horatio@Bridge View Post
    As a fan of both Babylon 5 and DS9, I'd recommend seeing them both. If you saw the first few seasons of DS9 you might have come away with a bad opinion of it, but the show really gets its stride around season 4. Oddly, this was about the same time that a certain writer left to supervise Voyager. >.>
    I assume you're talking about Michael Piller. You want to know the funny thing, though? He was the guy who turned The Next Generation around after its weak early seasons, and was the writer of the highly acclaimed The Best of Both Worlds. So it's a bit funny that his arrival so greatly improved The Next Generation, but Deep Space Nine improved after his departure.

    Though to be honest, I'm not sure if it was Michael Piller's departure that made the difference in DS9 as much as Ira Steven Behr becoming the guy in charge of the series...maybe a bit of both.

    EDIT: Whoops! I meant to add this into my previous message via edit, but goofed up and made two separate messages.
    Last edited by Lord Seth; 2009-04-28 at 07:51 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Jul 2007

    Default Re: New Star Trek Movie

    I’m looking forward to it. If nothing else, Star Trek needed this reboot. The mythology has become stifling; there was no room to tell new stories. But the film in general looks pretty high-quality.

    Of course, I’ll check out the reviews before I rush out to the theatres; I generally find that, while we all may have different tastes about what is a truly excellent film, truly terrible films are universal.

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Llama231's Avatar

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    Jan 2009

    Default Re: New Star Trek Movie

    Hey. Do you want to help make a game?

    Due to real life issues, I have been gon without warning for a while. I seem to be back now until further notice.

    Thanks to Szilard for the Avatar!

    If I am ever wrong, feel free to correct me. Learning is awesomesauce.

    I like to edit my posts. A lot. As you may see, most of my posts will be edited, so if one is not, and you care about what I said, you may want to check it again a minute later.

    Yes.

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    SurlySeraph's Avatar

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    Default Re: New Star Trek Movie

    Does anyone else think the trailer is a bit dark for Star Trek? Kirk's a alienated reckless idiot, Spock's unstable and violent, the crew of the Enterprise appears to consist entirely of moody 20-year-olds, and there's a remarkable amount of fleet battling and massive explosions for a peaceful galaxy. I mean, they're not turning it into Warhammer 40K, but I thought Star Trek was all about optimism and harmony.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thespianus View Post
    I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.

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