Erfworld 156 - tBfGK 143

[BillyJimBoBob]

{Scrubbed}

[Welf]

{Scrubbed}

Too late. Now your soul will burn in the eternal flames of 4chan.

Of course, you are correct. Hero wins. But that is irrelevant to the discussion. Mary Sue heroes win, and non-Mary Sue heroes win. Thus, winning isn't the or even a determining factor. All those other things I listed, those are the determining factors.

I guess I should have made my point clearer. The problem I wanted to address is that a "hero" and a Mary Sue are are located on a spectrum. Every characteristic of a hero can be found in a sue. He's better, clever and luckier than anyone else and vice versa. But the quality makes the difference. (And because that's a point of view we will probably come on common ground.)

I'm certain if you gave it just a little bit of thought that you could come up with a hero who wins in some story you've read, but who had to overcome actual disadvantages. Disadvantages which can't be pretty much summed up with "What do you mean, we can veil our troops?", spoken during a time when it wasn't even possible for those troops to be veiled as if this was some shocking limitation he would have taken advantage of if he had only known. Perhaps this hero was good at one thing but not good at some other. Or had average abilities but won due to persistence, or intelligence over might, or might over intelligence, or even dumb luck. If winning were the sole criteria, just about every character in every work could be accused of being a 'Sue.

But Parson? Our anagram named, physically massive, triple magic item wearing, Perfect Warlord Chief Warlord Lord Hamster who also just so happens to be a Hippymancer and can enter the Magic Kingdom unlike any other Warlord ever known? 'Sue all the way.

I admit that Parson has few apparent "inner" disadvantages. He doesn't angst before the battle, he is competent at what he does and doesn't need an mentor. But he has some. Before the final day he has his talk with Sizemore and he tells him that he hates him. A mary Sue would instantly solve that "problem", Parson just walks away. His "hosed" talk, while Sizemore nearly breaks down and people a slaughtered, let him look like a jerk. This aren't disadvanatges for the battle, but this leaves Parson with the taint of being immature. And that's a big blow to him being a sue.
Another thing is that fate itself is out to break him. Everything he tries fails until he literally kills everybody. And that mind altering spell that makes him servant to Stanley. Mary Sues don't have mind altering spells, at least not to stubby and hairy little males.

[Goshen]

I feel so stupid for having to ask this, but I can't stand it any longer! People keep saying Parson is an anagram, but I can't think of what other word or name his letters make.

[Kasavin]

I feel so stupid for having to ask this, but I can't stand it any longer! People keep saying Parson is an anagram, but I can't think of what other word or name his letters make.

Parson Gotti -> Protagonist.

[Pointyleaf]

I feel so stupid for having to ask this, but I can't stand it any longer! People keep saying Parson is an anagram, but I can't think of what other word or name his letters make.

Parson Gotti ->
- Rotating Sop
- Potato Rings
- Sat Trooping
- Sorta Opting

[Gez]

For a weakness to be a weakness, it has to have some real and measurable impact on a character. Parson is fat (I take it this is what you mean by "unhealthy habits"), but how does this impact him? "Whee... Stairs", and a mention in a klog that it took him 4 hours to climb from the tunnels to the tower. But aside from being mentioned, where is the disadvantage? There is none. His lack of physical condition is not a social or a physical disadvantage.

I alluded to more than that (just look back to his introduction). And the disadvantages? They simply haven't had the opportunity to have a real impact. But getting winded for going down stairs is definitely not a Mary Sue trait. Not a social disadvantage? Remember the first impression he made on Stanley?

And as for apathy, which I don't really see in him, the same applies. Parson took command of the troops to attempt the donut of doom as soon as he had learned the rudiments of the rules. That's not apathy. But even if you see apathy in him, where is the disadvantage? He surely isn't sitting in his room in the tower letting someone else handle the annoying details of running the war effort. Instead he is breaking open the books and interviewing everyone he can from Sizemore to Wanda to Stanley to Bogroll. If he suffers from apathy, he has a particularly active form of apathy.

He is currently in something that motivates him.

His name is an anagram;
He has not one, but two cool titles: Lord Hamster, Chief Warlord;
Is put immediately into a position of authority;
Has three unique magic items, one worth a large fortune;
Is physically larger than the norm for Erf humans;
Aside from a few musings on his sanity or possible stroke, took the summons to Erf completely in stride;
Learns the combat rules of Erfworld fast enough to find tactics which were surprising for seasoned combat veterans on both his own side and on the RCC side;
Makes friends easily, amongst both rank and file and the leadership;
Never asked what was in it for him, just did his job as he saw it. Not a character trait many in this world possess, most would have sought whatever advantage they could get after being made Chief Warlord;
Hard worker, to the point where he inadvertently disrupted Misty and kept Maggy up past her bed time;
Never let emotion slow him down. Expressed it briefly and then moved right along with adapting to whatever issue caused him to emote;
Strong communicator, drawing information out of the leadership cadre of GK and approaching both Charlie and Ansom with the right mind set to pique their interests or play to their weaknesses;
Not unfeeling, introspective about causing casualties. But kills without showing fear when it is needed of him using either battlefield tactics or personally;
Not overconfident, expresses self doubt and never lords his position over anyone;
Able to enter a magical area barred to anyone else not a caster;
"Special."

1. That's nothing more than a joke from the authors. Anagrammic names are not a Mary Sue trait! In fact they're not a character trait at all. It has factored less in the story than his lack of fitness.
2. Lord Hamster is his online nickname, and it's not really that cool. It's better than ++DerthVader666++, sure, but that should be expected since he's older than 12. Chief Warlord is not a title, it's a position. The position he's been summoned to fill. That's the premise. The spell to summon a warlord is introduced before Parson is introduced. Saying it's a Mary Sue trait is like reading a biography of Alexander the Great and saying he's a Mary Sue because he's an imperator who gets to conquer stuff.
3. The interesting thing about these magic items is how they've been given to him because he was subpar. (The spell booped up.) In short, they're crutches. He shouldn't have needed them to begin with.
4. He's not an Erfling.
5. How does that make sense? "He takes things in stride, he just thinks he's drugged or in a coma."
6. The tactics were surprising in big part because he hadn't learn the rules fully and thus did not behave as seasoned warlords do.
7. Make friends easily among the rank-and-file? He only interacted with Bogroll, who is (was) his lackey and a simpleton with a heart of gold. Sizemore is a toss. Misty is dead. Wanda, I wouldn't really say she considers herself his friend. Stanley thinks he's a failure at best, a traitor at worst.
8. What was in it for him? "If you refuse to obey a direct order, the spell with cease your existence permanently." "I can end you with a thought, you know?" He knows what was in it for him, he has been told since the start.
9. That's ridiculous. That's like saying I'm a Mary Sue when I pull an all-nighter to finish an essay before the deadline. Disturbing Misty was a mistake, by the way; and as for Maggie it was obviously a white lie on her part.
10. Oh come on! You're saying any character who isn't a whiny emo crybaby who never does anything is a Mary Sue. By your definition, any character who isn't a Mary Sue is a character who cannot be the star in any story worth being read.
11. In both of these cases, he started the communication, and was thus suitably prepared. He's a game master, it's not out of character for him to have honed manipulation skills.
12. Uh? The deaths he caused are indirect. Except for that wiener-rammer, which you can't say was done in cold blood.
13. Mary Sues express doubts? Since when?
14. Mind you, we've never been told why non-casters are not supposed to take the portals. We don't even know if they really can't.
15. Duh. Being not a native makes it so.


A lot of Parson's uniqueness in Erfworld comes from the fact that he's from a different world. That can be a Mary Sue trait, but here it is the entire premise of the plot, a "stranger in a strange land" type story where Parson discovers Erfworld at the same time as the reader. Now compare to, say, Superman, who is exactly like an Earth-born human except for countless superpowers. There have been enough Supes stories now for Krypton to be developed and relevant, but at the start it was just an excuse to have a character with superpowers without having to bother too much explaining how he got them.

The only things Parson has for him are his strategic, tactic and manipulative skills. They're precisely what is needed in his situation because they are precisely why he was summoned into this situation to begin with. On all other respect, he is much less than ideal.

[Spot]

For a weakness to be a weakness, it has to have some real and measurable impact on a character. Parson is fat (I take it this is what you mean by "unhealthy habits"), but how does this impact him? "Whee... Stairs", and a mention in a klog that it took him 4 hours to climb from the tunnels to the tower. But aside from being mentioned, where is the disadvantage? There is none. His lack of physical condition is not a social or a physical disadvantage. And as for apathy, which I don't really see in him, the same applies. Parson took command of the troops to attempt the donut of doom as soon as he had learned the rudiments of the rules. That's not apathy. But even if you see apathy in him, where is the disadvantage? He surely isn't sitting in his room in the tower letting someone else handle the annoying details of running the war effort. Instead he is breaking open the books and interviewing everyone he can from Sizemore to Wanda to Stanley to Bogroll. If he suffers from apathy, he has a particularly active form of apathy.


His name is an anagram;

He has not one, but two cool titles: Lord Hamster, Chief Warlord;

Is put immediately into a position of authority;

Has three unique magic items, one worth a large fortune;

Is physically larger than the norm for Erf humans;

Aside from a few musings on his sanity or possible stroke, took the summons to Erf completely in stride;

Learns the combat rules of Erfworld fast enough to find tactics which were surprising for seasoned combat veterans on both his own side and on the RCC side;

Makes friends easily, amongst both rank and file and the leadership;

Never asked what was in it for him, just did his job as he saw it. Not a character trait many in this world possess, most would have sought whatever advantage they could get after being made Chief Warlord;

Hard worker, to the point where he inadvertently disrupted Misty and kept Maggy up past her bed time;

Never let emotion slow him down. Expressed it briefly and then moved right along with adapting to whatever issue caused him to emote;

Strong communicator, drawing information out of the leadership cadre of GK and approaching both Charlie and Ansom with the right mind set to pique their interests or play to their weaknesses;

Not unfeeling, introspective about causing casualties. But kills without showing fear when it is needed of him using either battlefield tactics or personally;

Not overconfident, expresses self doubt and never lords his position over anyone;

Able to enter a magical area barred to anyone else not a caster;

"Special."

This list could be longer, but I think it makes the point. Parson is pretty much perfect by any definition. Not a stone cold killer, but able to do what is necessary without flinching. Not afraid ever, but also never overconfident or a jerk to those around him. Personable and charismatic. An innovator in battle in a setting made for battle. Special in many other ways. This is just about the dictionary definition of a Mary Sue character. Not a Parody Sue, to be clear, but a Mary Sue.

I believe that BillyJimBoBob is trying to cover up the fact that he, himself, is a Mary Sue.

My evidence:

I believe that For a weakness to be a weakness, it has to have some real and measurable impact on a character. BillyJimBoBob is unusually long-winded, but how does this impact him? "I don't give a **** about your Mary Sue theories" posted in all-caps by Dhjerr, and a mention on a board that his posts look like walls of text. But aside from being mentioned, where is the disadvantage? There is none. His lack of brevity is not a social or a physical disadvantage. And as for apathy, which I don't really see in him, the same applies. BillyJimBoBob took command of the message board to attempt the impossible defense of the Mary Sue theory as soon as he had learned the rudiments of the concept. That's not apathy. But even if you see apathy in him, where is the disadvantage? He surely isn't sitting in his room in the basement letting someone else handle the annoying details of running the message board theorizing effort. Instead he is breaking open the google and interviewing everyone he can from Blackadder to Welf Von Ehrwal to Djharr to Spot. If he suffers from apathy, he has a particularly active form of apathy.


His name is multiple names rolled into one;

He has not one, but two cool titles: Orc in the Playground, Chief Mary Sue Theorist;

Is put immediately into a position of message board dominance;

His posts are physically larger than the norm for Erfworld posts;

Aside from a few musings on his sanity or possible stroke, took the condemnations of his peers completely in stride;

Learns the message posting of Erfworld fast enough to find verbal tactics which were surprising for seasoned board warriors on both his own side and on the correct side;


Never asked what was in it for him, just spun his theory as he saw it. Not a character trait many on this board possess, most would have sought whatever advantage they could get after being made Orc in the Playground;

Hard worker, to the point where he inadvertently disrupted Djharr and kept others up past their bed times;

Never let emotion slow him down. Expressed it briefly and then moved right along with adapting to whatever issue caused him to emote;

Strong communicator, drawing information out of the leadership cadre of the Erfworld boards;

"Special."

This list could be longer, but I think it makes the point. BillyJimBoBob is pretty much perfect by any definition.

[Kreistor]

Ever read the TVTropes.org defitinion of Mary Sue? It explains what's going on here quite well.

[Decius]

"What's the lesson supposed to be here? Be careful what you wish for? This isn't what I wished for."
"You didn't wish for this world, Parson Gotti. It wished for you."

Unsaid: The lesson is, indeed, be careful what you wish for.

[Rockphed]

I believe that BillyJimBoBob is trying to cover up the fact that he, himself, is a Mary Sue.

Sir, you win the internet.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please dial back the hostility here and avoid personal attacks and profanity.

[Goshen]

Parson Gotti -> Protagonist.

Aaagh! Of course!

Parson Gotti ->
- Rotating Sop
- Potato Rings
- Sat Trooping
- Sorta Opting

ROTFLMAO!

- Groat Points
- Grin Potatos
- Spotting Oar

[joosy]

<pounding head against keyboard over asinine posts because folks read what a Mary Sue Trope was and are frantically trying to shoehorn it into the story>

On an up note, at least they got tired of the cool 'new' latin phrase "Deus Ex Machina" and misusing that to all planes of existence and beyond.

I'm almost afraid to compare this situation to Petunia the Goose as they may latch onto THAT and start trying to pound that into Erfworld.

(Petunia the Goose: A story about a goose who finds a book and takes to carrying it around; thinking herself very wise when in truth she doesn't even know how to read)

[Gez]

Oh wait, I just realized something horrible and am now a convert to the cause of Parson is a Mary Sue(tm): Parson has a smartboop talking animal sidekick! Yes, 'tis true, Hamstard makes of Parson a Mary Sue.

And if you think I'm being serious, shame on you.

[BillyJimBoBob]

*lots of stuff*

The definition of a Mary Sue is broad. There have been charges that most characters in most works of fiction could easily qualify, and you've pointed out some of the points I used fall well into a broad category. It has to come down to a personal decision, and I see Parson with a lot of clear 'Sue traits, and a lack of any real disadvantages. Some others may disagree, and that's fine.

Your only points I would contest are those where you refer to the plot or story line.

Chief Warlord is not a title, it's a position. The position he's been summoned to fill. That's the premise.

and a few others in a similar vein. Plot enforced 'Sue is not a counter to a charge of being a 'Sue.

4. He's not an Erfling.

So? He is still a human surrounded by other humans who are all physically smaller than he. This is a 'Sue trait.

7. Make friends easily among the rank-and-file? He only interacted with Bogroll, who is (was) his lackey and a simpleton with a heart of gold. Sizemore is a toss.

Sizemore is not a toss. He was charmed by Parson from the start, and when he entertained self-doubt about Parson he was told by an authority figure just how wrong he was. This is a 'Sueism by the book.

13. Mary Sues express doubts? Since when?

Since they are not Parody Sues. Mary Sues are challenged, do fail, and have issues within a story which they must work to overcome. Or they are either Parody Sues or simply poor fanfic characters.

15. Duh. Being not a native makes it so.

Again, plot enforced special traits are no counter to a charge of being a Mary Sue character.

The only things Parson has for him are his strategic, tactic and manipulative skills. They're precisely what is needed in his situation because they are precisely why he was summoned into this situation to begin with. On all other respect, he is much less than ideal.

How is he less than ideal? He had demonstrated a mastery of the rules, calling out troop formations, spell use, and caster tactics with confidence and no sign of any doubts from his cadre of casters. He has saved GK from an unwinnable scenario where they were outnumbered 25 to 1 and the enemy had 6 times the troops needed to easily defeat them. He is laden with magic items, one worth a large fortune. He is a caster, supposedly, and can go where no other Warlord can go. His weight isn't an issue for him. His "apathy" isn't an issue for him. He really has no issues at all. We see him entertain self doubt, but without impact on his actions or effectiveness. And a disadvantage needs some teeth if it is to be taken seriously.

BillyJimBoBob is pretty much perfect by any definition.

Spot on!

[T-O-E]

<snip>

Extraordinary forum post! Hilarious!

[DevilDan]

Frankly, I fail to see the point of the Mary Sue discussion. It's either a good story or its not. Parson is either a believable character or he's not.

For my money, a Mary Sue wouldn't have needed to completely destroy the city and kill so many people to achieve victory. A Mary Sue wouldn't be in the position to feel the self-doubt or remorse that is seen to plague Parson.

Parson's a relatively nice guy: after having worked for a demeaning, unbalanced megalomaniac like Stanley, it's no wonder that Sizemore took a liking to someone who showed him so basic human/Erfling kindness and courtesy.

Parson is neither attractive nor even particularly competent in physical endeavors, etcetera. Really, this question should just be it's own (troll) thread, given that its scope is the whole book.

[fruityjanitor]

"Special."

This list could be longer, but I think it makes the point. BillyJimBoBob is pretty much perfect by any definition.

Epic!

Unsaid: The lesson is, indeed, be careful what you wish for.

Whoa! I didn't even think of that! I wonder if Parson is ever going to remind her of this conversation some time down the road?

[Gez]

Parody Sue

You use that term as if any actual Mary Sue was intended for satire, while any and all protagonists are Mary Sues. "This character plays a central role in the story: he is a Sue." "This character is completely ridiculous, therefore the author must be actually making a parody of normal protagonistsMary Sues."

Seriously, to not fit your definition of a Mary Sue, a character needs to be a nobody to whom nothing happens, who does nothing at all, and yet fails at doing that nothing (which results in nothing interesting). Then he mopes about that failure, which leads him to do more nothing. And everybody hates him instinctively (which seems actually quite deserved).

Then there's the circular logic problem. Parson is good for managing an army within a game-like system, and pretty much nothing else. Managing an army within a game-like system is the only thing that's demanded of him. Therefore he is a Mary Sue because he's good at the only thing he's made to do.

[MattR]

Cramming characters into the pre-defined templates of TVtropes isnt a true deconstruction or analysis of the character and seems to have little merit at all. It doesnt increase your enjoyment while reading and it doesnt provide new insights into the character itself.

Whether Parson is a Mary Sue or not is completely irrelevant since in a well-written story a Mary Sue and Non-Mary Sue can be equally likable or detestable depending on what the author does with the character. Since being a Mary Sue doesnt matter at all it makes working out if a character IS one pointless.

[Kreistor]

The definition of a Mary Sue is broad.

No. It isn't. There is no accepted definition for "Mary Sue". It had a tight description originally, but the term has been perverted more and more, until the term has become synonymous with "any character the reviewer doesn't like" for some people. There are some that insist on the original definition, not even allowing for characters that are male, though that is rare. It is such a contentious issue, TVTropes refuses to define the term, only presenting the many and varied views.

Because it has no definition, no one can tell anyone else what character is a Mary Sue, and that is why this debate devolves into Flaming and Trolling. What sense is there is arguing over whether someone is a Mary Sue, when no one even agrees on what the definition of "Mary Sue" is. In other words, everyone is right and everyone is wrong, until a definition for Mary Sue has been settled upon.

This isn't going to be settled here. Anyone interested in trying to deine the term would have a lot more success (ie. a little more than none) arguing on TVTropes or a similar site.

[Oslecamo]

ed here. Anyone interested in trying to deine the term would have a lot more success (ie. a little more than none) arguing on TVTropes or a similar site.

Completely agreed. TVtropes has done little more than complicating media terms by tying each other to a bazillion diferent examples wich may or not have anything to do with it, making the tropes pretty much meaningless.

Let's get back on the main discussion: How uber will Ansom be when he comes back as whatever special unit Wanda can now create?

[Pointyleaf]

Let's get back on the main discussion: How uber will Ansom be when he comes back as whatever special unit Wanda can now create?

She should make him wear a little pink dress and name him Mary Sue.

[MattR]

Hmmm fair point actually. What WILL he be wearing? and will he sport Hamstard or something Wandaish?

[Oslecamo]

Hmmm fair point actually. What WILL he be wearing? and will he sport Hamstard or something Wandaish?

My bet's on Wandish. And since it's arkenpliered he'll probably be changing from custom to custom every other panel!

[DevilDan]

This gives me another excuse to post this:

[Welf]

Ansom will so uber that they will call him Überansom. With points over his u.

[jcworking]

The Mary Sue discussion is pointless, as are most categorical arguments. I refer you to the song on Veggie Tales Greatest Hits. If it doesn't have a tail its not a monkey.

You can apply or not apply any category you want to anything you want, but if no one has agreed to the characteristics of the category no discussion is possible.

Drop it. I am far more interested in Zombie Ansom. I say he comes back with his original stats or better, his mind intact but enslaved and he doesn't decompose. Stanley gets dragons, Charlie gets Archons, Wanda gets super-zombies. I think that is fair.

[SteveMB]

This gives me another excuse to post this:

You realize that if you adopt that as an avatar, it will immediately turn out that uncroaked raised by a Croakamancer attuned to the Arkenpliers don't turn sickly green.

[Gez]

My bet's on Wandish.

So we'll get to see Ansom wearing the same outfit Wanda currently does? There needs to be an "Erfworld house of horrors" thread somewhere.