Erfworld 156 - tBfGK 143

[MattR]

Hmmmm while i still feel that Wanda was the predictamancer for FAQ i can see how it would work if the predictamancer was a seperate entity.

If the predictamancer shared the beliefs of Janis and Banhammer, both people who pursued peace rather then combat, it may have used it's abilities to deliberately engineer the whole situation. Telling Wanda she would get the pliers as an incentive to go with/stay with Stanley, knowing that without Wanda's help Parson could never win this fight or even exist in erf. Popping Jillian, giving the side a chance to continue after the deliberately betraying FAQ to get Wanda etc in position on Stanleys side. If the predictamancer told Jack that peace might happen if he stands by Stanley and the Chief Warlord that'll appear in the future.... it might explain the level of loyalty we're seeing.

[SteveMB]

Hmmmm while i still feel that Wanda was the predictamancer for FAQ i can see how it would work if the predictamancer was a seperate entity.

If so, she's still going out of her way to conceal that fact from Parson ("As it was Predicted!" rather than the more natural "As I Predicted!"), even while being surprisingly open (for her, anyway) in dropping hints about her personal history.

It's not a fatal objection to the theory, but it's a bit of an oddity if it's true.

[MattR]

You could be right... i suppose it'd depend on if the predicatmancer feels like theyre producing a prediction or merely channeling one. Though this seems thin.

Frankly i'm not sure anymore... while i was writing the second paragraph in that earlier post i was thinking back over all the evidence so far and it did seem like having the predicatamancer as a seperate person makes alot of sense.

[Vreejack]

You could be right... i suppose it'd depend on if the predicatmancer feels like theyre producing a prediction or merely channeling one. Though this seems thin.

Frankly i'm not sure anymore... while i was writing the second paragraph in that earlier post i was thinking back over all the evidence so far and it did seem like having the predicatamancer as a seperate person makes alot of sense.

Also, I cannot quite imagine Wanda wearing this. (Panel 7).

[T-O-E]

Isn't that Jack?

[Gez]

Also, I cannot quite imagine Wanda wearing this. (Panel 7).

I think that's Jack Snipe, actually; not the Predictamancer.

[ishnar]

I am really amazed that no one has seen the obvious here: ANSOM IS A MARY SUE! ...

(And yes, I am mocking all the people who are finding Mary Sues under the beds, in the closets, at the top of Efedup....)

Considering that there has been zero Mary Sue discussion in this thread, you're mocking the wrong people.

[Gez]

Considering that there has been zero Mary Sue discussion in this thread, you're mocking the wrong people.

Actually...

Haven't you learned by now that Parson has no real weaknesses? He is a Mary Sue, which does not make the story a poor one. But there can be no denying that Parson fits the Mary Sue trope very, very well.

[nooblade]

Hmm. I didn't think Parson's orders for the casters to link was very Mary Sue-ish. The Mary/Marty Sue doesn't just know the best solution, she knows she knows the best solution, and that is what makes you want to kick them.

Also, Parson seems to be just coming out of "this is just a game" mode.

But yeah, some events looked Sue-y.

[Kasavin]

You know, before this thread I don't think I had ever heard the phrase "Mary Sue" before. So I went to the tvtropes to figure out what exactly a Mary Sue was. They didn't have a reasonable definition other than "it's bad." Which makes perfect sense. All this debate about whether or not such and such a character is a "Mary Sue" is just detractors trying to say something bad about a character. Whether or not its actually a Mary Sue is irrelevant. If you don't like a character, say the specific reasons, don't fall aback onto a poorly defined trope.

As for Parson, of course he has weaknesses. Big, huge ones. He's vastly overweight, a real shocker for me when I started to read BfGK. He's stinks as a webcomic creator. He's also incredibly apathetic about everything except wargames, of which he knows far to much. When given an oportunity to bail on the game and work for Charlie, he in a fit of vanity wanted to see if he was smart enough to win in an unwinnable scenario. He also a sarcastic smart aleck who has problems with authority.

[Spot]

You know, before this thread I don't think I had ever heard the phrase "Mary Sue" before. So I went to the tvtropes to figure out what exactly a Mary Sue was. They didn't have a reasonable definition other than "it's bad."

From Wikipedia:

A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as wish-fulfillment fantasies for their authors or readers. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that... ...the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet".


The negative connotation of the term comes from this very "wish-fulfillment" implication: the "Mary Sue" is regarded as being a poorly developed character, one who is too perfect and lacking in three-dimensionality to be accepted as realistic or interesting. Such proxy characters, critics claim, exist only because the author wishes to see himself or herself as the "special" character in question.



Parson is not a "Mary Sue", and neither are any of the other characters in Erfworld.

[cdrcjsn]

Yeah. He fits the archetype of a brilliant wargamer, but he's hardly a cliche with no flaws or other traits that doesn't fit that trope.

[Frogpop]

Also, I cannot quite imagine Wanda wearing this. (Panel 7).

Yeah that is Jack. Just because Wanda is from FAQ doesn't mean she'd only dress like a court official or scribe. Wanda has already shown us one of her takes on eastern fashion.

[MadScientistMat]

If you want a good example of a Mary Sue, look at any of Clive Cussler's Dirk Pitt novels. While not quite as annoying as most of them, Dirk is a very blatant copy of Cussler, down to the green eyes and orange Doxa diver's watch. Except he's more attractive than Cussler and never ages. And as for the author favoring Pitt too much? There are scenes where Clive Cussler shows up in person in the story to give Dirk a valuable clue, assistance, or in one of the novels, lend him a houseboat with a 500 horsepower V8.

Only most Mary Sues are a bit more annoying to read about.

[Justyn]

Oh no! While reading these posts I think I just figured out the plot of book 2 and the end of the entire story! The bad part is I can't discuss it without the fear of ruining it for everyone else.

Or maybe my imagination is just working overtime tonight...

Hey, write it up and put it in spoiler tags; let us make the decision for ourselves.

[Norsesmithy]

If you want a good example of a Mary Sue, look at any of Clive Cussler's Dirk Pitt novels. While not quite as annoying as most of them, Dirk is a very blatant copy of Cussler, down to the green eyes and orange Doxa diver's watch. Except he's more attractive than Cussler and never ages. And as for the author favoring Pitt too much? There are scenes where Clive Cussler shows up in person in the story to give Dirk a valuable clue, assistance, or in one of the novels, lend him a houseboat with a 500 horsepower V8.

Only most Mary Sues are a bit more annoying to read about.

Dirk meets Clive in EVERY NOVEL. It's a running joke.

And anyways, Dirk isn't any more Sueish than James Bond, John Patrick Ryan, or any of a dozen other main characters from other action adventure suspense novels. His "specialness" is par for the course in that genre.

[MadScientistMat]

He didn't meet Cussler in some of the earlier novels, but it has turned into a running joke now. Cussler didn't do that until he had been well established, and claimed he was wondering if the editor would catch that.

While I would agree that the genre does have a lot of incredibly competent men of action with few flaws, Dirk Pitt takes the author identification to a different level than most. Cussler and Pitt share an unusual eye color, both wear Doxa watches, Cussler owns most of the weird and rare cars we see Pitt driving, etc.

[Blackadder]

Dirk meets Clive in EVERY NOVEL. It's a running joke.

And anyways, Dirk isn't any more Sueish than James Bond, John Patrick Ryan, or any of a dozen other main characters from other action adventure suspense novels. His "specialness" is par for the course in that genre.

Give Jack Ryan his correct title, Jesus Reagan.

The key sticking point with any Mary Sue or Gary Stu is the key point of credibility, could someone so awesome exist? Of characters in Erfworld there are no Mary Sue's in the running yet. The strongest potential for this is Wanda, however we've seen her screw up big time twice already, and something tells me third time is not the charm. The Donut of Doom was one error after another on her part(First over estimating Parson, then under, trusting to much in the spell) and lets not forget that face plant the first time she tried to take the pliers.

[Sir Shadow]

Yea... if Parson was a Mary Sue, ALL of his plans would have worked... atm, very few of them have proven as effective as he wanted (meaning his opponents have found a foil for the plan pretty much EVERY time, not considering the volcano)...

[Oslecamo]

Indeed, geting defeated when you outnumber the enemy 25 to 1 is pretty much epic fail unless you're a race of space bugs.

It isn't even a phyrric victory for Stanley because he's now loaded with (literally) a mountain of jewels to rebuild his side, his mancers seem to have leveled up, making them even stronger, and Wanda's all buffed up by the pliers. Considering that they started with a small army to begin with, it's a quite good ending.

Did I mention shiny new super uncroacked warlord to replace the ones falling apart?

Only thing left to know is how Stanley reacts when he gets back.

[chefsotero]

And I just have a tought, Wanda is aware of diferent worlds. So when she claims that this was not the frist apocalypse, she could be refering to the countless apocalypses in countless diferent worlds?

[BillyJimBoBob]

Not really. He has weaknesses, including apathy and unhealthy habits.

For a weakness to be a weakness, it has to have some real and measurable impact on a character. Parson is fat (I take it this is what you mean by "unhealthy habits"), but how does this impact him? "Whee... Stairs", and a mention in a klog that it took him 4 hours to climb from the tunnels to the tower. But aside from being mentioned, where is the disadvantage? There is none. His lack of physical condition is not a social or a physical disadvantage. And as for apathy, which I don't really see in him, the same applies. Parson took command of the troops to attempt the donut of doom as soon as he had learned the rudiments of the rules. That's not apathy. But even if you see apathy in him, where is the disadvantage? He surely isn't sitting in his room in the tower letting someone else handle the annoying details of running the war effort. Instead he is breaking open the books and interviewing everyone he can from Sizemore to Wanda to Stanley to Bogroll. If he suffers from apathy, he has a particularly active form of apathy.

I can deny it. Parson isn't the least bit Mary Sue. He doesn't fit ANY of the qualifications.

None at all, eh?

His name is an anagram;

He has not one, but two cool titles: Lord Hamster, Chief Warlord;

Is put immediately into a position of authority;

Has three unique magic items, one worth a large fortune;

Is physically larger than the norm for Erf humans;

Aside from a few musings on his sanity or possible stroke, took the summons to Erf completely in stride;

Learns the combat rules of Erfworld fast enough to find tactics which were surprising for seasoned combat veterans on both his own side and on the RCC side;

Makes friends easily, amongst both rank and file and the leadership;

Never asked what was in it for him, just did his job as he saw it. Not a character trait many in this world possess, most would have sought whatever advantage they could get after being made Chief Warlord;

Hard worker, to the point where he inadvertently disrupted Misty and kept Maggy up past her bed time;

Never let emotion slow him down. Expressed it briefly and then moved right along with adapting to whatever issue caused him to emote;

Strong communicator, drawing information out of the leadership cadre of GK and approaching both Charlie and Ansom with the right mind set to pique their interests or play to their weaknesses;

Not unfeeling, introspective about causing casualties. But kills without showing fear when it is needed of him using either battlefield tactics or personally;

Not overconfident, expresses self doubt and never lords his position over anyone;

Able to enter a magical area barred to anyone else not a caster;

"Special."

This list could be longer, but I think it makes the point. Parson is pretty much perfect by any definition. Not a stone cold killer, but able to do what is necessary without flinching. Not afraid ever, but also never overconfident or a jerk to those around him. Personable and charismatic. An innovator in battle in a setting made for battle. Special in many other ways. This is just about the dictionary definition of a Mary Sue character. Not a Parody Sue, to be clear, but a Mary Sue.

[Rockphed]

Indeed, geting defeated when you outnumber the enemy 25 to 1 is pretty much epic fail unless you're a race of space bugs.

In which case it is par for the course?

[Blackadder]

This list could be longer, but I think it makes the point. Parson is pretty much perfect by any definition. Not a stone cold killer, but able to do what is necessary without flinching. Not afraid ever, but also never overconfident or a jerk to those around him. Personable and charismatic. An innovator in battle in a setting made for battle. Special in many other ways. This is just about the dictionary definition of a Mary Sue character. Not a Parody Sue, to be clear, but a Mary Sue.

Your missing the two main points of Mary Sue-ish.
Perfection and Wish fulfillment.

By his own acknowledgment, Parson is not perfect and not just fake acknowledgment. Yes he's got a big old brain on him, but he's fat, lazy, easily distracted and above all... he's soft. Not just in body but in heart. He nearly lost everything and would have done so without the spell stopping him. Remember his great gambit of uncroaking the volcano only came as he could not force himself to send his casters through to the magic kingdom. He failed at the Donut of Doom, in fact you posted a nice long list of qualifications for Mary-Sue'dom but completely ignored all his negative points and his failure again and again up until this recently.

Sure he was able to get it to the point that he lost "less bad" but he still lost over and over again.

To give you an actual Mary Sue let me compare to.


Honor Harrington(From David Weber's Honorverse series)
A Manticore officer who starts out the series as shy, reserved, politically unskilled, but a brilliant tactician and a heavy-grav world style human meaning she's stronger and faster then everyone else... oh and she has a empathic tree-cat companion and she comes from humble roots.

At present she is currently the single greatest Manticore Admiral, having been prompted four times now ahead of grade. She's also along the way become the Duchess of her home planet, a Steadholder on her adopted planet(She has an entire planet which calls her hero) and is one of the richest people in her Empire. she's politically astute. The richest man in her Empire owes her some favors. Oh and the Queen of her Empire and her are on good terms. She's been captured by the enemy, and escaped (And liberated an entire planet of slaves along with her). Personally killed a Master-level swordsman in a one on one fight. Personally ambushed a Pirate Dictator and his two flunkies. Been in and won half a dozen firefights. Been in and won dozens and dozens of space battles. Only twice has she been mangled, both times taking down far more of them than she did of her. Her empathic tree-cat? Now a talking(via sign language) tree-cat. She's still stronger and faster than everyone else but is master level in martial arts, sword-fighting and could place if not win in any gun tournament. Oh and she likes to have hot steamy love with the highest ranking aristocrat of the Empire and his wife totally does not mind what with her being a crippled award winning actress who currently spends her days writing best selling books and doing charity work.

I know I'm skipping some stuff, but that friends is what a real Mary Sue looks like. Impossible to exist.

[Oslecamo]

In which case it is par for the course?

Pretty much yes. You can't call yourself a space bug if you don't throw your brothers in the fray like the other guys throw ammunition at you.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Your missing the two main points of Mary Sue-ish.
Perfection and Wish fulfillment.

Not all Mary Sue characters are equal. Cross a line and you become a Parody Sue, or just a poor piece of fanfic. Parody Sues or poor fanfic has protagonists who never lose ever. Mary Sues can face adversity, and failure. They just get up again like Rocky after a beating and win in the end. Sound familiar?

By his own acknowledgment, Parson is not perfect and not just fake acknowledgment. Yes he's got a big old brain on him, but he's fat, lazy, easily distracted and above all... he's soft. Not just in body but in heart. He nearly lost everything and would have done so without the spell stopping him. Remember his great gambit of uncroaking the volcano only came as he could not force himself to send his casters through to the magic kingdom. He failed at the Donut of Doom, in fact you posted a nice long list of qualifications for Mary-Sue'dom but completely ignored all his negative points and his failure again and again up until this recently.

Sure he was able to get it to the point that he lost "less bad" but he still lost over and over again.

The Mary Sues own estimation of their flaws is no way to measure their Sueness. Being fat hasn't been shown to be either a social or a physical disadvantage for Parson, by any measure of "disadvantage." He has been shown once "Whee! Stairs" and described once "It took me 4 hours to climb from the dungeon up to the tower. I can't describe my legs" as being out of shape, and yet he's never had to soak in a tub to sooth his aching muscles, he's never been unable to do something just because he is out of shape, including hack the neck off of a weiner-rammer when he has never swung a sword before. Stanley is standing right next to Parson for "Whee! Stairs" and although Stanley has been a running fountain of insults directed at Parson for his ignorance of Erf, Stanley passes over any comment on Parson's physical limitations. No, a disadvantage has to mean something, or it isn't a real disadvantage. One measure of being a Mary Sue is to have a physical deformity or some other flaw which either is no real problem or in some cases is an actual advantage. Parson has a huge size and weight advantage over Erf humans, but we've seen no disadvantage applied for his lack of physical fitness.

The donut of doom was not Parson's failure. It was Wanda's. She failed to inform Parson of the weakness of her spell, didn't believe it in fact. Sizemore set she and Parson straight, but it was too late. Still, not Parson's failure. And in any event the siege had to be destroyed, even if it took a willful sacrifice of the dwagons. Parson's plan had the best odds of success, and the plot forced those odds to go to the slim chance rather than the best chance.

To give you an actual Mary Sue let me compare to.


Honor Harrington(From David Weber's Honorverse series)

You might be on to something here!

[fendrin]

Being fat hasn't been shown to be either a social or a physical disadvantage for Parson, by any measure of "disadvantage." He has been shown once "Whee! Stairs" and described once "It took me 4 hours to climb from the dungeon up to the tower. I can't describe my legs" as being out of shape, and yet he's never had to soak in a tub to sooth his aching muscles, he's never been unable to do something just because he is out of shape, including hack the neck off of a weiner-rammer when he has never swung a sword before. Stanley is standing right next to Parson for "Whee! Stairs" and although Stanley has been a running fountain of insults directed at Parson for his ignorance of Erf, Stanley passes over any comment on Parson's physical limitations.

Conversely, it has also never been stated as an advantage; the closest is Stanley telling Wanda that he wants someone big, which probably has more to do with Stanley's Napoleonic height issues than any strategic or tactical advantage.

[Welf]

This list could be longer, but I think it makes the point. Parson is pretty much perfect by any definition. Not a stone cold killer, but able to do what is necessary without flinching. Not afraid ever, but also never overconfident or a jerk to those around him. Personable and charismatic. An innovator in battle in a setting made for battle. Special in many other ways. This is just about the dictionary definition of a Mary Sue character. Not a Parody Sue, to be clear, but a Mary Sue.

Well, let me introduce you to one of the basic principles of storytelling:

Spoiler

Show

Hero wins.

This can subverted, averted or simply ignored. But mostly the challenge for an author is to make this interesting.

Parson is the hero. He has by definition major influence on the story. And this usually means he's better in something relevant than the people around him (except for those sucky stories where hero is an idiot but wins on account of being the good guy). The very idea of the story is that Parson is the perfect warlord and that he's willing to do the job. He's the right guy for the right job, summoned by uber-magic. But that's the set-up for the story and doesn't establish sue-ness.

Anyway, on the first view you seem to have a point; Parson never seemed to have to "grow" and overcome limitations of himself to win.
But he had. Unfortunately these limitations where honesty, kindness and compassion. He sacrificed Bogroll, his most loyal friend he had, he alternated Sizemore when he sent him killing people and at the end he end killed all of his men and risked the lives and sanity of his three casters.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Well, let me introduce you to one of the basic principles of storytelling:

Hero wins.

This can subverted, averted or simply ignored. But mostly the challenge for an author is to make this interesting.

Parson is the hero. He has by definition major influence on the story. And this usually means he's better in something relevant than the people around him (except for those sucky stories where hero is an idiot but wins on account of being the good guy). The very idea of the story is that Parson is the perfect warlord and that he's willing to do the job. He's the right guy for the right job, summoned by uber-magic. But that's the set-up for the story and doesn't establish sue-ness.

Of course, you are correct. Hero wins. But that is irrelevant to the discussion. Mary Sue heroes win, and non-Mary Sue heroes win. Thus, winning isn't the or even a determining factor. All those other things I listed, those are the determining factors. I'm certain if you gave it just a little bit of thought that you could come up with a hero who wins in some story you've read, but who had to overcome actual disadvantages. Disadvantages which can't be pretty much summed up with "What do you mean, we can veil our troops?", spoken during a time when it wasn't even possible for those troops to be veiled as if this was some shocking limitation he would have taken advantage of if he had only known. Perhaps this hero was good at one thing but not good at some other. Or had average abilities but won due to persistence, or intelligence over might, or might over intelligence, or even dumb luck. If winning were the sole criteria, just about every character in every work could be accused of being a 'Sue.

But Parson? Our anagram named, physically massive, triple magic item wearing, Perfect Warlord Chief Warlord Lord Hamster who also just so happens to be a Hippymancer and can enter the Magic Kingdom unlike any other Warlord ever known? 'Sue all the way.

[djharr]

{Scrubbed}