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    Pixie in the Playground
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    biggrin Jetstone destroyed Faq

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    Stanley may or may not have been involved in a later rescuing. It could be Wanda and Jack are just tagging along because they fall in with his ideology of getting rid of the royals.

    My guess is that Faq's destruction is what made Wanda so damn pissed at the world, and of course Ansom.

    I do wonder though, what exactly have we seen on screen of how bad these bad guys really are? I mean, I'm not saying they're angels, but I think the likes of Stanley and Wanda could be a lot more human then we give them credit for, just as some of these royals might not be so damn saintly as they like to claim.

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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    It's been mentioned, but it doesn't seem particularly likely. Ansom must have been a particularly good actor when Jillian was telling him about Faq.
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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    It's not likely anymore. The thought ran that Wanda had the Pliers stolen by Ansom, but now we knwo that a Predictamancer told her she would get the Pliers and attune. This could only happen if she bumped into Ansom, so she needed to get out of the Bubble Kingdom. This suggests a motive for her to betray Faq to Stanley, and possibly the Predictamancer's interfered with Jack as well, making him willing to go along.

    This removes the necessity for Ansom to have been in Faq, nor ever hear of it.

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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    Jillian heard panicked reports of an overhead flight of dwagons. Hence, Stanley destroyed Faq.

    See? it's cute how posters selectively disregard the established facts of a story to support a chosen bit of pet speculation.

    Oh, but of course, that doesn't support your assumptions. So the communique is faked. So that would require that Jetstone be knowledgeable about the existence of a distant nation that Transylvito couldn't detect.

    It would also require that whoever in Jetstone was responsible for Faq's downfall to have had access to some rather extraordinary resources and had to keep the mobilization of those resources secret from pretty much everybody ever.

    There is also absolutely no profit to be had in destroying some distant hermit kingdom, whose territory you cannot even absorb.

    What you have there is the equivalent of a conspiracy theory.

    Also, Belkar is lawful good.
    Last edited by LurkerInPlayground; 2009-04-23 at 12:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkerInPlayground View Post
    Jillian heard panicked reports of an overhead flight of dwagons. Hence, Stanley destroyed Faq.

    See, it's cute how posters selectively disregard the established facts of a story to support a chosen bit of pet speculation.

    Because, you see, Belkar is lawful good.
    It has not been said Stanley is the only one with dwagons, that the dwagons over faq were real and it has also not be explicitly stated the Stanley did do it.

    Certainly looks like he did but it's still not proven one way or the other.
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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    Quote Originally Posted by zz_tophat View Post
    It has not been said Stanley is the only one with dwagons, that the dwagons over faq were real and it has also not be explicitly stated the Stanley did do it.

    Certainly looks like he did but it's still not proven one way or the other.
    Ahh, "agnosticism."

    The problem is that it's also the only option that makes any sense. Since it's heavily implied that "dwagons" don't act as a military force without some powerful external influence (i.e. the Arkenhammer).

    Any other explanation virtually has zero evidence in support of it and any other alternate "theory" requires pretty much exactly the same convoluted reasoning demonstrated above. Which requires extraordinary evidence.

    Also, one of the rules of good writing is that if dwagons can be assembled as a force by other methods, or that wild dwagons are capable of acting in concert (dwagons being famously social animals), you have to foreshadow it. That's a pretty major fact to go unnoticed for all this time.

    It's pretty much the same as the "Belkar is Lawful Good" thing. You could hem around every act of malice and every act of self-professed thematic Chaos that he's all about by sufficient speculation of this or that ability, power, obscure fact, etc.

    This may as well be an act of fan-fic.
    Last edited by LurkerInPlayground; 2009-04-23 at 12:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkerInPlayground View Post
    Ahh, "agnosticism."

    The problem is that it's also the only option that makes any sense. Since it's heavily implied that "dwagons" don't act as a military force without some powerful external influence (i.e. the Arkenhammer).

    Any other explanation virtually has zero evidence in support of it and any other alternate "theory" requires pretty much exactly the same convoluted reasoning demonstrated above. Which requires extraordinary evidence.

    Also, one of the rules of good writing is that if dwagons can be assembled as a force by other methods, or that wild dwagons are capable of acting in concert (dwagons being famously social animals), you have to foreshadow it.

    It's pretty much the same as the "Belkar is Lawful Good" thing. You could hem around every act of malice and every act of self-professed thematic Chaos that he's all about by sufficient speculation of this or that ability, power, obscure fact, etc.

    This may as well be an act of fan-fic.
    All I evidenced was the fact that nothing has been explicit in regards to the fall of Faq other than "overflight of dwagons" and the casters the GK. You can try to make a case against alternate theories all you want but the fact remains that so far nothing remains beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Based on what I've seen so far my thinking is that it is most likely the Faq fell to Stanley. What I would like is to hear that it was somehow destroyed by someone else, (Charlie, Jetstone some other faction) giving the events surrounding it's destruction some sinister "yet another evil" feel to the story.

    As for generalizing the story rules for Dwagons, you can't because they are for one: imaginary and two: not dragons per se but dragon parodies that may have their own distinct (comedic) differences.
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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    Quote Originally Posted by zz_tophat View Post
    All I evidenced was the fact that nothing has been explicit in regards to the fall of Faq other than "overflight of dwagons" and the casters the GK. You can try to make a case against alternate theories all you want but the fact remains that so far nothing remains beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Based on what I've seen so far my thinking is that it is most likely the Faq fell to Stanley. What I would like is to hear that it was somehow destroyed by someone else, (Charlie, Jetstone some other faction) giving the events surrounding it's destruction some sinister "yet another evil" feel to the story.
    And my case is exactly that there is a reasonable doubt, in spite of what you just said. It's all the other exceptions that are presented that are eminently unreasonable. Skirting around epistemological concepts doesn't really change this.

    The issue isn't just that there is a lack of evidence, but that there is also an abundance of evidence that logically excludes most other possibilities, excepting some extreme extenuating circumstances. And since I'm pretty sure you're not claiming that you could present evidence for these radical exceptions, then there's not much to be said.

    As for generalizing the story rules for Dwagons, you can't because they are for one: imaginary and two: not dragons per se but dragon parodies that may have their own distinct (comedic) differences.
    If you're going to say that you can't make rules for characters in a story, then there's no point holding a discussion.
    Last edited by LurkerInPlayground; 2009-04-23 at 01:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    Fair enough, Lurker, but it has been shown that the Erfworld authors like to throw plot curveballs, and we have almost zero data about how Faq fell other than "there was an overflight of dwagons". You can say that Stanley is the only logical choice, except that there is evidence against it: Jack/Wanda's ongoing loyalty to Stanley (even against Jillian, one of their compatriots!), Stanley not having kept the cities of Faq, and the backhistory with Wanda and Ansom (Wanda, who was at Faq, and Ansom, who took something from her).

    Uh, I'm going to have to also go with agnosticism.
    Last edited by Pointyleaf; 2009-04-23 at 03:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    Quote Originally Posted by Pointyleaf View Post
    Uh, I'm going to have to also go with agnosticism.
    That's probably a good position -- the story gives us evidence that it was Stanley, but upon close examination one realizes that the evidence is not really conclusive.

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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkerInPlayground View Post
    Also, one of the rules of good writing is that if dwagons can be assembled as a force by other methods, or that wild dwagons are capable of acting in concert (dwagons being famously social animals), you have to foreshadow it. That's a pretty major fact to go unnoticed for all this time.
    I don't know, but for some reason I simply assumed that there were natural dwagonflights. Maybe I had spent too much time in WoW, but the possibility of a wild dwagonflight was something I had immediately assumed. This could be a mass dragon migration, perhaps caused by Charlie or somesuch. Perhaps the creators thought the same way.
    I try to keep a level head, in theory, when I'm lucid. Or at least that's what I tell myself. It's only an internet forum about a game.

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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    This most recent page seems to lend at least some credulity to the theory that Wanda, of all people, had something to do with it.

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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    Quote Originally Posted by LurkerInPlayground View Post
    See? it's cute how posters selectively disregard the established facts of a story to support a chosen bit of pet speculation.
    And its cute how trolls go out of their way to make generalizations that will annoy people. :D

    Oh, but of course, that doesn't support your assumptions that you are not a troll (or at least, that no one can tell that you're a troll).

    Merely seeing an overhead flight of dragons doesn't indicate that the dragons were the ones responsible for attacking the place. After all, correlation (flight of dragons linked with destruction of Faq) does not equal causation (flight of dragons causes destruction of Faq)--especially not in a series of comics where the authors apparently enjoy throwing plot twists at the readers.

    As such, there are other possible interpretations, and no guaranteed "this is the only logical answer" option. It could be that Stanley was moving to assist Faq. It could be that Stanley was merely passing through. It could be that those dragons were actually just weather balloons inflated with swamp gas.

    While not all of the aforementioned options are good ones, with the balance of the current evidence (Wanda and the Foolamancer's well-established loyalty balancing out Stanley's apparent tendency to attack other cities), the first one is at least as likely as the theory that Stanley attacked Faq.

    And while the "rulebook of good writing" that you seem to be consulting suggests that it is necessary to foreshadow rogue movements of dragons, I propose that the presence of dragons at Faq could in fact be considered foreshadowing for the fact that there are "rogue movements of dragons" (such as, say, someone else with control over dragons, who may become a problem as time goes on).

    Additionally, you appear to be defining "reasonable doubt" as those things that disagree with you. Perhaps, if you are not trolling, you could give us your working definition of reasonable doubt, so that we can compare possibilities without bias.

    ...Also, Belkar is Lijah Cuu.

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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    Jillian wouldn't have had to tell Ansom where Faq was in that case.

    Stanley destroyed Faq on the orders of King Saline IV, who was collecting experienced and talented casters. He was appointed heir for his successful campaign and for bringing the foolamancer and croakamancer (as well as possibly a Thinkamancer and Lookamancer) back alive and willing to serve -- a feat that dramatically increased Gobwin Knob's power and would have impressed the old king.

    After the fact, Wanda helped Stanley turn on Saline and overthrow him, creating a leadership of her choice.
    Last edited by Imgran; 2009-04-23 at 09:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    Quote Originally Posted by Imgran View Post
    Jillian wouldn't have had to tell Ansom where Faq was in that case.
    Except that Ansom isn't Jetstone's only general--at least, that's the impression I've gotten from previous strips. Its certainly possible that Ansom didn't personally participate in the war against Faq, but knew that such a battle had occurred, and that Stanley supported Faq against them. Even so, however, I have little evidence to support this statement.

    However, its worth noting that I would not necessarily expect quite the strong loyalty to Stanley that Wanda and the Foolamancer have demonstrated if Stanley had merely shown up to conveniently replace Faq's leadership. As a matter of fact, I would suspect that Wanda's loyalty would be weaker because of that--after all, if she was willing to betray the leadership of Faq (and her friendship with a certain princess) in exchange for personal power, what makes her so much more inclined to save Stanley's butt at the risk of her own continued existence.
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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzardman View Post
    Except that Ansom isn't Jetstone's only general--at least, that's the impression I've gotten from previous strips. Its certainly possible that Ansom didn't personally participate in the war against Faq, but knew that such a battle had occurred, and that Stanley supported Faq against them. Even so, however, I have little evidence to support this statement.

    However, its worth noting that I would not necessarily expect quite the strong loyalty to Stanley that Wanda and the Foolamancer have demonstrated if Stanley had merely shown up to conveniently replace Faq's leadership. As a matter of fact, I would suspect that Wanda's loyalty would be weaker because of that--after all, if she was willing to betray the leadership of Faq (and her friendship with a certain princess) in exchange for personal power, what makes her so much more inclined to save Stanley's butt at the risk of her own continued existence.
    This explanation falls afoul of Occam's Razor. The simplest solution is really the right one, and the simplest solution is that Stalney wrecked Faq.

    There's no particular evidence that Jetstone knew that Faq existed before Jillian told Ansom. Transylvito, which was way closer, had no idea Faq was there.

    Is it possible? Sure, But only through contrived possibilities that you'd have to go out of your way to believe.

    (of course that doesn't mean one of them might not turn out later to be true as the result of a plot twist, but that's hard to see from here)

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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    What does Wanda feel Ansom took from her?

    How did Ansom get the pliers?

    Why does Stanley dislike Charlie?

    What will be found at Faq? (The name in our world suggests a whole bunch of answers)

    We have no idea what happened and who used to be allies. For all we know Stanley was an ally of Jetsome under Saline IV.

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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    Quote Originally Posted by Imgran View Post
    This explanation falls afoul of Occam's Razor. The simplest solution is really the right one, and the simplest solution is that Stalney wrecked Faq.

    There's no particular evidence that Jetstone knew that Faq existed before Jillian told Ansom. Transylvito, which was way closer, had no idea Faq was there.

    Is it possible? Sure, But only through contrived possibilities that you'd have to go out of your way to believe.

    (of course that doesn't mean one of them might not turn out later to be true as the result of a plot twist, but that's hard to see from here)
    Occam's Razor says that the simplest solution is usually the right one, not always the right one. There still isn't any guarantee either way; moreover, in fiction, the simplest solution is frequently not the right one.

    But you are correct; as of yet, there is no particular indication that Ansom knew Faq existed. However, you have yet to prove that Stanley destroyed Faq; the simplest solution doesn't explain why Wanda and the Foolamancer are so loyal to Stanley, and "Wanda is playing politics and yet is ridiculously loyal to Stanley despite herself" is not in itself a simple solution.
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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzardman View Post
    why Wanda and the Foolamancer are so loyal to Stanley, and "Wanda is playing politics and yet is ridiculously loyal to Stanley despite herself" is not in itself a simple solution.
    If the mancers betrayed Faq then they would be happier with the one who defeated Faq.

    It is not clear yet whether Wanda is loyal to Stanley or if *needed* Stanley as part of prophesy for pliers. On that front we likely will know soon one way or another if/when they meet up again. Will Stanley expect Wanda to hand over the pliers? Will Wanda backstab Stanley?

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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzardman View Post
    However, you have yet to prove that Stanley destroyed Faq;
    True, lots of warlords command large overflights of dragons near cities that are somehow destroyed the next turn.

    the simplest solution doesn't explain why Wanda and the Foolamancer are so loyal to Stanley,
    There's evidence that Maggie has plied her trade on Jack Snipe. I suspect a loyalty spell.

    Wanda seems to be following Stanley for reasons of her own.

    My theory is that Stanley was not yet an Overlord at the time he destroyed Faq. Jillian spent a lot of time as a mercenary before she joined the Radish Coalition. More than enough time for King Saline IV to have been king when Stanley destroyed Faq at his orders.

    Remember, Saline had access to some very good Lookamancy and might have had Misty use her magic to "follow" a mysterious mercenary unit from an unknown side back to Faq. Snipe can fool mortal eyes but it's not a given that he could fool a master Lookamancer. After that it's just a question of summoning up your trusted Chief Warlord and going after them.

    Heck, it might even have been Stanley that took the initiative, followed the unit home, destroyed the towns, and captured 2 master-level casters to bring home to the King and enter into his service. THat's something that would certainly impress a king into making serious promotions.
    Last edited by Imgran; 2009-04-23 at 10:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    Quote Originally Posted by Imgran View Post
    True, lots of warlords command large overflights of dragons near cities that are somehow destroyed the next turn.
    And we've already had this discussion. Correlation does not equal causation, and "reasons of her own" does not adequately express a "simple solution" as to why Wanda would follow Stanley. And it seems like far too obvious of a detail for the writer's of Erfworld to have just thrown out there as the only solution; it seems much more like the beginning of a plot twist than any actual answer as to what happened at Faq.

    Moreover, the only evidence we have that Maggie ever plied her trade on Jack Snipe is the mindlink. Otherwise, there's no indication that Maggie ever bothered with him, or that she put a loyalty spell over him, or anything similar. And again, "Wanda is weird + Maggie uses loyalty spell to make up for Stanley's assault" is still a more complicated solution than "Wanda and Jack are loyal to Stanley because he didn't attack Faq." Especially since that, if Wanda was so willing to betray her previous Overlord, there's no reason for her to be so loyal to this fairly incompetent new one she's got.

    And I'm not sure how Stanley not being Overlord at the time affects their loyalty in any way. If you are correct, then he still destroyed Faq, and that would still make their loyalty to him very low indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by multilis View Post
    If the mancers betrayed Faq then they would be happier with the one who defeated Faq.
    Happier, maybe. More willing to betray the next overlord in line? Hecks yes. This is why no one trusts a spy.

    And more willing to betray = less loyalty.
    Last edited by Wizzardman; 2009-04-23 at 11:14 PM.
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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    Hard to say. Given Wanda's loylaty to stanley and hatred of ansom and Jillian's total reverse i get whatever the answer will be is very, very complicated.
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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    My going theory is that Saline had Stanley burn FAQ. The casters don't blame him because he was simply following orders, and because he was responsible for Saline's death later on.

    This fits with:

    1.) The overflight of Dragons and the presence of the FAQ casters.
    2.) Ansom's appearent lack of knowledge about the whole affair.
    3.) Jack's and Wanda's loyalty.
    4.) How the city was found, possibly. A lookamancer could accomplish what scouts normally couldn't.
    Last edited by BossMuro; 2009-04-23 at 11:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    It was mentioned here that Stanley probably overthrew FAQ with Wanda's help from the inside- that would probably explain a lot about her loyalty.

    The only question about the whole situation is why Jack would also be likewise loyal to Stanley?

    Wanda makes sense- it is possible that her tribe, the lost Croatan tribe was destroyed by FAQ and then the Predictamancer made the prediction to her, so she sought to undermine FAQ's leader so that she could be on a side that wanted to go to war and to recover the arkentools. FAQ's relentless pacificism would prohibit her having many chances from venturing far afield or from having tools delivered to her doorstep (since FAQ would often be shrouded.)

    I would speculate about why Jack would be with Stanley, but the question seems too wide open.

    ...an interesting situation, altogether.
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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzardman View Post
    But you are correct; as of yet, there is no particular indication that Ansom knew Faq existed. However, you have yet to prove that Stanley destroyed Faq;
    That doesn't need to be proven. Stanley didn't destroy Faq does not mean that Jetstone did. Nevertheless, there's a good deal of evidence that he did:

    1. The Dwagons. We've been given no indication they're used by any other side, or that wide Dwagons are common enough that they might have coincidentally appeared during the attack on Faq. Jillian considers their appearance to be conclusive proof that Stanley was behind it, which of course doesn't make it conclusive proof but supports the theory (Jillian is more familiar with Erfworld than we are, and would know if Dwagons were that common)
    2. Stanley knows where Faq is (and Ansom doesn't). This is the major problem with any theory that removes Stanley from Faq. The destruction of Faq was the reason Jillian knew he was going there, if he knew about it from a different source that makes this connection a complete coincidence! You suggest he was part of a "later rescue" but don't elaborate on why he would do this, or how he would know about Faq.
    3. Wanda and Jack are with Stanley. Casters are normally captured, we're told. Why would they, therefore, be captured by a completely innocent third party? Surely they'd be working for Jetstone, or croaked? Your explanations of this are far and away more convoluted than any explanation the other side offers for their loyalty to Stanley.

    So no, we don't see it happen, but that doesn't mean it didn't. Obviously there are details that we still don't know. Until they become avaliable, though, there is a great deal of evidence that Stanley was responsible. There is zero evidence that Jetstone was responsible. You may as well blame FoxMUD.

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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    It seems more likely that Jetstone possibly destroyed the Croatoan Tribe, and Wanda moved from there to Faq. I have no idea who actually destroyed Faq from then, but unless Ansom was the world's greatest actor he just is too straightfaced in his dealings with Jillian to have had a hand in the destruction of her kingdom. That's how I see it at least.

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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogardan_Mage View Post
    That doesn't need to be proven.
    And we're back to this again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogardan_Mage View Post
    Stanley didn't destroy Faq does not mean that Jetstone did.
    Never said it did, friend. I was just showing that there isn't any proof that Stanley did destroy Faq--which you seem to have forgotten to read.

    ...I apologize if I come off as a little testy, but I did already state my stuff on this.

    1. Yes, though Jillian has already been proven to be hotheaded, and therefore very likely to jump to conclusions. She's not exactly a reliable source of information. Therefore, while I will freely agree that Stanley was probably there when she received that communication, that doesn't mean Stanley destroyed Faq--at least partially because that's far too obvious a jump, so its much more likely that there's some twist involved here.

    2. Again, no one said Stanley wasn't there--just that he didn't destroy Faq. Likewise, just because Ansom acts like he doesn't know where it is doesn't mean Jetstone didn't destroy Faq--it just means that Ansom probably didn't.

    Again, I have no way to directly prove that Jetstone is responsible; its just a suggestion that someone else came up with. I'm just supporting the theory that Stanley isn't responsible for the fall of Faq.

    3. And again, we're back to the loyalty issue. The problem you're running into is that they haven't really provided a good explanation for why the two casters are still loyal to Stanley. People don't just decide not to blame the guy who took over their kingdom and killed their leader just because "he was only doing his job"--at least not to the point where they become very loyal to him. And there's no evidence that Maggie used a loyalty spell on Jack.

    Now, DarkCloud has a good point; Wanda might have been willing to betray Faq out of revenge for the loss of her tribe. However, if instead, she just betrayed Faq for her own political gains, there's no reason for her to be loyal enough to Stanley to repeatedly risk her own life in his defense, when there were several situations where she could have betrayed Stanley and thereby easily gotten out of this mess alive. People willing to betray their friends (such as Jillian) in exchange for political gain are unlikely to stay loyal to a particular leader at the extreme risk of her own life.

    You can say my solutions are "too complicated" all you want, but they still make more sense than the relatively weak "its not his fault" arguments that everyone else seems to be throwing out. You don't become strongly loyal to someone just because its not his fault your city got its rear kicked--especially if he is technically responsible for the rear-kicking. Stanley must have done something to have won their loyalty, and, judging from his ineptitude as a leader, it is more likely to have been something he did at Faq, then his ability to run an empire.

    I'm certainly not saying that Stanley is a completely innocent third party. Stanley must have been there at the fall of Faq. However, that doesn't mean that Stanley is responsible for Faq's destruction.
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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    By the by, I didn't say Ansom destroyed Faq, I said Jetstone, by which I mean the faction he belongs to. Ansom need not necessarily have known about it. This is admittedly a wild guess based only on "it would fit the drama".

    But I'm fairly certain that Stanley didn't destroy Faq, or if he did that that's not all there was to it. But I still say he didn't. The way the story is trying to push the reader that way while the actual evidence is nothing amounting to *actual* evidence seems a bit too fishy.

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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    With Wanda claiming that she destroyed far more than Parson, and Parson having annihilated an army and a city, well, Wanda had to have destroyed quite a bit. Faq fits that bill perfectly.

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    Default Re: Jetstone destroyed Faq

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizzardman View Post
    And its cute how trolls go out of their way to make generalizations that will annoy people. :D

    Oh, but of course, that doesn't support your assumptions that you are not a troll (or at least, that no one can tell that you're a troll).

    Merely seeing an overhead flight of dragons doesn't indicate that the dragons were the ones responsible for attacking the place. After all, correlation (flight of dragons linked with destruction of Faq) does not equal causation (flight of dragons causes destruction of Faq)--especially not in a series of comics where the authors apparently enjoy throwing plot twists at the readers.
    Or you're just a troll trying pretty poorly to troll the troll.

    I'm well aware of the BS pseudo-epistemology people are trying very poorly to apply. The problem is that the OP is making an extraordinary claim. So saying "I'm agnostic" doesn't help. I don't need you to point out to me that, "Wow! Anything is possible in a world with uncertainty!"

    Really?

    As such, there are other possible interpretations, and no guaranteed "this is the only logical answer" option. It could be that Stanley was moving to assist Faq. It could be that Stanley was merely passing through. It could be that those dragons were actually just weather balloons inflated with swamp gas.
    But speculating about certain possibilities are clearly illogical. Simply put, saying that Ansom or Jetstone is responsible is, frankly, BS. Because it would require too many unknown elements, to the point of being absurd.

    No amount of, "the author likes curveballs" or "I don't really know, so I'll throw out epistemological semantics to stall the discussion" makes a person look any less assinine.

    While not all of the aforementioned options are good ones, with the balance of the current evidence (Wanda and the Foolamancer's well-established loyalty balancing out Stanley's apparent tendency to attack other cities), the first one is at least as likely as the theory that Stanley attacked Faq.
    My point is essentially, not all the aforementioned options are good options. This is hard?

    And while the "rulebook of good writing" that you seem to be consulting suggests that it is necessary to foreshadow rogue movements of dragons, I propose that the presence of dragons at Faq could in fact be considered foreshadowing for the fact that there are "rogue movements of dragons" (such as, say, someone else with control over dragons, who may become a problem as time goes on).
    Great. So you have one hint. Bravo. The only person we've known to control dwagons is Stanley and he's held possession of the Arkenhammer the whole time.

    Again, I'm well aware that Dwagons might be famously social or that another person could tame them. The problem is that:
    A) You still have no other evidence.
    B) That would require adding another antagonist we haven't seen for a significant portion of the strip.

    I don't expect a supervillain to step out from behind the curtains. Stanley makes for an adequate villain.

    I'm sure the author could pull a . . . "But an even greater threat steps from the shadows" but it'd be really cheap since there's no trouble making drama from the already extant set pieces.

    Additionally, you appear to be defining "reasonable doubt" as those things that disagree with you. Perhaps, if you are not trolling, you could give us your working definition of reasonable doubt, so that we can compare possibilities without bias.
    I already gave that working definition. You just didn't bother reading it before accusing me of trolling.

    If your "theory" logically requires such powerful evidence to pretty much contradict all previous interpretation of the facts, then what you have there is BS.

    Postulating that there's another villain more powerful or competitively powerful with Stanley requires exactly this burden of evidence.

    Postulating that Jetstone is powerful and secretive enough to pull off a conspiracy theory where they can plunder/destroy a hidden hermit kingdom requires this burden of evidence. Where is the profit? What's the motivation? Why spend more resources to destroy a nation then its probably worth looting? Does Jetstone have these resources? Basically, why bother? Is Ansom really that ignorant of the workings of his own country and is he really that good of a liar if he's in on it?

    A wild flight of dwagons destroyed Faq? Okay, so why can Jack Snipes fool Transylvito but not a pack of feral beasts?

    And on . . . and on . . .

    At the risk of repeating myself; claiming agnosticism is pretty assinine. I'm technically agnostic with regard to the strip. But that doesn't mean I can't make best-guess approximations. And that doesn't mean that I have to make completely far-fetched speculations that require a greater burden of proof than we've been given so far.

    I'm pretty sure that's the point of Occam's Razor, but I'll probably regret even bringing it up.

    Point being: Stanley a large share of responsibility for the destruction Faq. This exists in a region of high probability while pretty much everything else doesn't.
    Last edited by LurkerInPlayground; 2009-04-24 at 02:55 AM.

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