The Borg vs. The Daleks

[Meshakhad]

This matchup is interesting to me, not merely because of who might win, but of the parallels between the two factions.

Both the Daleks and the Borg represent the ultimate foe in their respective shows (Doctor Who and Star Trek, respectively). They are virtually unstoppable, and cannot be beaten with conventional firepower. They are a unified force that seeks to defeat all others, whether through assimilation (the Borg) or EXTERMINATION (the Daleks).

More importantly, the only way to defeat either one seems to be cleverness, something that both the Borg and the Daleks lack. So, what happens when they meet (and immediately try to kill one another)?

My tentative guess is that the Borg will win. Eventually, the Borg will adapt to the Dalek death-rays, at which point the Daleks are fairly screwed. But could the Daleks overcome this problem?

The only thing I am certain of is that I would pay good money to see this fight.

My conditions for this are:

1. Assume both factions have roughly equal resources to call upon.
2. Anyone who tries to turn this into a Star Trek vs. Doctor Who thread, or even an Enterprise vs. the TARDIS thread, will be EXTERMINATED.
3. Speaking of which, assume that the Doctor is
a) On board the Enterprise-D, while the TARDIS is in the shuttlebay.
b) Is watching the battle on long-range sensors from Picard's ready room.
c) They are both providing running commentary on the battle.

[chiasaur11]

The Borg are superior in one respect:
They are better at dying!

I'm giving this to the omnicidal salt shakers. At least they don't get beaten by Janeway. Also, the Cybermen are pretty much the Borg. The Daleks handed them their collective arses.

[Tensu]

Well, I don't really know what I'm talking about, having not seen much of ether show (I know, I know, and I call myself a nerd) But it seems to me that the Borg would be replenishing their numbers by assimilating their captives, thus they would easily win in a war of attrition.

[Turcano]

My tentative guess is that the Borg will win. Eventually, the Borg will adapt to the Dalek death-rays, at which point the Daleks are fairly screwed. But could the Daleks overcome this problem?

Well, even though the Borg could probably adapt to the Daleks' ZA WARUDO death ray, they probably couldn't do the same with their Toilet Plungers of Death.

[Athaniar]

An important question: are Daleks (I'm thinking the mutants inside the armor) vulnerable to assimilation? Could we potentially have Daleks running around (figuratively) shouting "AS-SIM-IL-ATE!"?

[kamikasei]

1. Assume both factions have roughly equal resources to call upon.

You'll have to pin this down a bit. The Daleks are far and away the more advanced. So, if by "equal resources" you mean "equal numbers of ships and/or individual units" the Daleks have a huge advantage. If you mean something weighted by unit strength, on the other hand, you're basically handicapping the Daleks until it's an even fight, which rather defeats the purpose.

The two questions on which the whole thing hinges are:
- Can the Borg assimilate Daleks?
- Can they adapt to Dalek weaponry?

I don't see any reason why Dalek biology would be assimilation-proof, but an intact Dalek armor should be; they can disintegrate bullets before they hit them, it's likely they can prevent anything (nanites or nanite-delivery mechanisms) from making contact if they don't want it to. So assimilation will only be an issue if the Borg can incapacitate armors and then take their time with them. As to adapting to weaponry, well, they never seemed to adapt to Species 8472; it's possible that if the power difference is great enough, if the enemy can destroy entire ships outright in single shots or volleys, that adaptation isn't possible. (Never mind that it's a terribly thought through and inconsistent idea in the first place...)

So, by pretty much any measure I would give this to the Daleks by a mile. They're just a much more advanced and powerful civilization. The real problem of course is that both shows play fast and loose with consistency and internal logic so that a rigorous comparison is basically impossible.

It's an interesting pairing, though, since the two are almost totally antithetical. The Borg seek to attain perfection by incorporating all else into themselves; the Daleks believe themselves to be perfect and want to destroy everything that isn't them.

[chiasaur11]

You'll have to pin this down a bit. The Daleks are far and away the more advanced. So, if by "equal resources" you mean "equal numbers of ships and/or individual units" the Daleks have a huge advantage. If you mean something weighted by unit strength, on the other hand, you're basically handicapping the Daleks until it's an even fight, which rather defeats the purpose.

The two questions on which the whole thing hinges are:
- Can the Borg assimilate Daleks?
- Can they adapt to Dalek weaponry?

I don't see any reason why Dalek biology would be assimilation-proof, but an intact Dalek armor should be; they can disintegrate bullets before they hit them, it's likely they can prevent anything (nanites or nanite-delivery mechanisms) from making contact if they don't want it to. So assimilation will only be an issue if the Borg can incapacitate armors and then take their time with them. As to adapting to weaponry, well, they never seemed to adapt to Species 8472; it's possible that if the power difference is great enough, if the enemy can destroy entire ships outright in single shots or volleys, that adaptation isn't possible. (Never mind that it's a terribly thought through and inconsistent idea in the first place...)

So, by pretty much any measure I would give this to the Daleks by a mile. They're just a much more advanced and powerful civilization. The real problem of course is that both shows play fast and loose with consistency and internal logic so that a rigorous comparison is basically impossible.

It's an interesting pairing, though, since the two are almost totally antithetical. The Borg seek to attain perfection by incorporating all else into themselves; the Daleks believe themselves to be perfect and want to destroy everything that isn't them.

If you mean equally weighted by unit strength, the fight should be great fun.

One Dalek.

Five or so Borg cubes.

Hours upon hours of entertainment.

[Ascension]

If you mean equally weighted by unit strength, the fight should be great fun.

One Dalek.

Five or so Borg cubes.

Hours upon hours of entertainment.

Daleks are really that strong? And yet they're consistently defeated by a single guy with a fancy multitool, a time machine, and the ability to come back from the dead? How?

>Ascension's knowledge of Doctor Who all comes second-hand.

[SmartAlec]

He's a MacGyver-esque hero from the one race more technologically and scientifically advanced than the Daleks are. And he doesn't fight fair!

[Selrahc]

Daleks are really that strong? And yet they're consistently defeated by a single guy with a fancy multitool, a time machine, and the ability to come back from the dead? How?

Because he doesn't fight them, he beats them with a clever plan.

[chiasaur11]

Daleks are really that strong? And yet they're consistently defeated by a single guy with a fancy multitool, a time machine, and the ability to come back from the dead? How?

>Ascension's knowledge of Doctor Who all comes second-hand.

Well, the Doctor is a member of one of the oldest races in the galaxy, has a freaking incredible time machine (which he operates by himself despite the fact it's designed for a crew of six), he's killed a couple of satan analogues, and generally been what cosmic horrors tell campfire tales about.

And I probably exaggerated the Daleks a tad, but they are fairly tough. Four Daleks took a huge army of Cybermen (who are basically the Doctor Who equivalent of the Borg) without breaking a sweat. Or whatever Daleks break in stressful times.

Mind, I haven't seen that much Doctor Who either, so take this all with a grain of salt.

[X2]

Well since the Borg have strength of numbers and can assimilate the organisms in the shell (as well as the shell itself if they need it) I'd have to say Borg.

But then again I like Star Trek slightly over Doctor Who.

[Ravens_cry]

The Borg.
Sure, a few drones would be 'EXTERMINATE!'-ed, but pretty soon the Borg would adapt. And our plunger wielding nemesis would be bye-bye once the Borg a developed a nanite that could eat through the casing and assimilating the Dalek directly. I think it would have an effect on the Borg though, assimilating the Dalek. Their battle cry would become, "Resistance, is, futile, you, will, be, EXTERMINATED!"
Shuddersum thought. I should write a fan fic!

[hamishspence]

actually, as of more recent Star trek novels (just before the Star Trek: Destiny arc) that really is their warcry

"You will be exterminated. Resistance is futile... but welcome."

[Friv]

One trick you're going to run into is that Daleks have vastly varying power levels depending on when they're encountered. As a time-travelling species with thousands of years of development, any stage of which could be encountered at any given moment, they're kind of hard to pin down.

Similarly, the Borg at their best were an order of magnitude stronger than the Borg in Voyager. In their first appearance, the Borg slaughtered most of the Federation's fleet without breaking a sweat. In First Contact, a single Borg cube was up to the combined forces of the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans, all fighting together. Later on, Voyager is taking down Borg cubes by itself with no good reasoning.

At their best, this goes to the Daleks hands-down, simply due to them having better time travel than the Borg. On the other hand, the Daleks at their peak were promptly thrown into war against another time-travelling race, so they now retroactively never existed.

Assuming both species are at their peak, and neither has much in the way of time travel, I'm going to tentatively give this to the Borg. Once they adapt to Dalek death rays, the Daleks are going to be in a certain amount of trouble, and the Borg are better able to replenish their ranks by converting entire species to throw into the fray. It will be a brutal fight, though, since it'll take vast amounts of Borg firepower to stop each Dalek, and they are still vunerable to physical murder.

[Meshakhad]

I think we can all agree, however, that a Borg-Dalek war would be awesome to watch, especially if we have the Doctor and Jean-Luc Picard giving snarky commentary.

[Athaniar]

My prediction:

Whichever side wins is severely weakened, and then Species 8472 comes in and finishes them off.

I really think we should have seen more of Species 8472. And that they should have been given a proper name.

[GoC]

They're both ridiculous.
The Daleks much more so.

I'd give this to the Daleks, at least the ST writers don't have a universe that oscilates between Rule of Cool and Rule of Funny.

EDIT: Gah! The Cybermen! I had nightmares about them! I dreamt I had to avoid seeing them because otherwise my IQ would drop.
Yes I actually dreamt that.

EDIT2: According to a Dr. Who fanboy I know the Daleks have in fact conquered hundreds of galaxies. Stupid I know.

[Llama231]

I would say the Daleks simply because of time travel.

[chiasaur11]

They're both ridiculous.
The Daleks much more so.

I'd give this to the Daleks, at least the ST writers don't have a universe that oscilates between Rule of Cool and Rule of Funny.

EDIT: Gah! The Cybermen! I had nightmares about them! I dreamt I had to avoid seeing them because otherwise my IQ would drop.
Yes I actually dreamt that.

EDIT2: According to a Dr. Who fanboy I know the Daleks have in fact conquered hundreds of galaxies. Stupid I know.

What can I say?

They are very, very mean salt shakers.

[Tensu]

Well, seeing as how I'll bet time travel is impossible without creating dimensional-implosion causing paradoxes, infinite loop scenarios, or something else in that vein, let's say nobody has any time travel. Then what?

[GoC]

I would say the Daleks simply because of time travel.

The borg have that too.

[chiasaur11]

Well, seeing as how I'll bet time travel is impossible without creating dimensional-implosion causing paradoxes, infinite loop scenarios, or something else in that vein, let's say nobody has any time travel. Then what?

It is possible, however, in both settings discussed.

In fact, it is rather key to both settings.

Also, even if we're talking one Dalek, fifty billion Borg, and the Dalek only has a plastic spork...

Well, the Dalek would lose. But it'd be a close fight.

[Krrth]

Well, as of the latest Dr. Who Episode I'm familiar with, the Daleks developed a device that destroys all life in every time stream possible, and teleport entire planets around at will.

The Borg are nasty, but I have a sneaky suspicion that the Daleks will win simply because they have a Seer leading them. Someone able to see the entirety of space/time and plan accordingly makes for a hell of a foe.

[Llama231]

Oh well, I guess that I will have to work around that.

Data:
Daleks
Key Points

The death ray possesses incredible firepower for its size. It can kill almost any mortal life-form, level houses, and destroy entire spacecraft. Under certain circumstances, Daleks are shown equipped with additional weaponry...

The armour has a forcefield that evaporates most bullets and absorbs most types of energy weapons, though normally ineffective firepower can be concentrated on the eyestalk to blind the Daleks. [16] The shields however can be penetrated by their own weaponry.

May edit in more later.

Borg
Borg Cube
Key Points

In terms of offense and defense, a Borg cube is a fleet in and of itself. Common capabilities of cubes include high warp (transwarp) capabilities, self-regeneration and multiple redundant systems, rapid adaptability to almost any assault, and various beam (tractor beams and cutting beams) and missile weapons. A single Borg cube has, on multiple occasions, taken on entire Federation fleets and held its own. Cubes have been known to carry sphere ships in cavities covered by large slide-away hatches in the outermost layers; however, it is unknown if this is common.

May edit in more later.


Yeah... Wikipedia does not say much information...

[streakster]

Ahem.

The Daleks take a stroll through an army of cybermen, and a special forces team.
The Daleks do diplomacy.

I'm giving this one to the Daleks, here.

[Ascension]

Ahem.

The Daleks take a stroll through an army of cybermen, and a special forces team.
The Daleks do diplomacy.

I'm giving this one to the Daleks, here.

Judging from these videos...

Dialogue, firepower, shielding... Daleks win.

Special effects? Borg win big time.

I had no idea Doctor Who looked so... low budget. Not necessarily a downfall, but still...

[yukigono]

I am going to have to agree with the majority of the people in this thread and say the Daleks would win. I haven't seen as much of Dr. Who as would like, but from what I have seen, and from what I've heard of their abilities, they would run roughshod over the Borg.

[Starscream]

The Daleks can:
a) Travel through time
b) Slip between universes in a void ship
c) Teleport entire planets across the galaxy
d) develop weapons that will literally destroy not only the entire universe but every possible parallel universe as well
e) Fight the single most intelligent and advanced species in creation to a standstill

Yeah, the Daleks would win. But it's really an apples to oranges comparison, as they have completely different technology, motivations, and enemies.

Borg vs Cybermen would be a better match up. Even though the Borg were actually somewhat based on the Cybermen, I'd give the edge to the Borg in this one. They seem more clever.

Whereas the Cybermen, when last we saw them, were turning silly looking gorillas into sillier looking gorillas in masks and making steampunk mechas out of rubbish.

Maybe the original Mondas Cybermen would stand a chance (if they even still exist), but the Cybus versions are just souped-up earth technology.

[Avilan the Grey]

Daleks.

It's not even a competition. It is DEFINITELY not war. It is PEST-CON-TROL.
I'll give this hands down to the ultimate space-nazis.