Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

[Moechi_Vill]

... ordos... kunos! ... ordos... Ansomae!

[Kreistor]

Battlespace...

I was thinking about this the other day. The problem with a real-time combat/turn-based strategy game is one of day length. Eacah side gets a full turn, but there's no indication of how long that turn is, so the day will not always be so many ours long.

Now, here's the brain twister... if you are fighting two battles on different fronts, how do all the turn orders interact?

Now we have an answer, of sorts.

Each battle has a declared Battlespace. Each Side has a turn order, but only inside that Battlespace. Now there is no waiting for the activities on Front 1 waiting for the turns of people on Front 2.

Next up... how do you determine the size of the Battlespace?

Well, at day break, for each Side, determine what total area that could be reached. Next, determine where these areas overlap. Battlespace is wherever there is overlap. All units that can enter Battlespace are influenced by the Turn Order of that Battlespace. Units that are not capable of reaching Battlespace have normal day Turns.

In the case of Transylvito... bats don't have great move -- I'm not going to look it up, but I think Jilian said they were 22, vs. some of her gwiffons at 50+. Dwagons could have 50+ move.

There may also be "intent" involved, too. Transylvito intends on moving away towards Faq, so though the dwagons and bats could theoretically intersect, they both intend to go different directions, so there is no possibility of battle, despite a theoretical chance of encounter. There must also be a set of rules for accidental encounters -- informal battles, for Sides or Barbarians that are unaware of each other and have no formal intent to make war. Since both Sides are moving, both should be able to retreat out of hex, for instance, so long as one side has a Commander or better.

I could speculate more, but there aren't a lot of options for this. It has to be a fairly simple rule set, and even this may be too complex.

[raphfrk]

If the decrypted units don't decompose and don't require upkeep, they are a game breaker. Stanley could fairly quickly have a massivly powerful army without upkeep. In a couple of hundred turns, they would be unstopable.

It depends on how many she can uncroak at once. If you can mass-raise *and* have them not decay, then she could potentially almost double the size of Stanley's army each turn, i.e use 10 units to kill 5 units and you have 15 units at the start of the next turn. Once you are killing 1000 units with 2000 units, you are really starting to get powerful very quickly. (Also, in combat raising would make your current units even more powerful).

However, the power is balanced by the fact that it requires her to be present. At least with the hammer, it seems that the dragons are just added as a build option. In principle, Stanley doesn't need to actually lead them. (though has it been said that the hammer gives a bonus to dragons?).

[raphfrk]

If the decrypted units don't decompose and don't require upkeep, they are a game breaker. Stanley could fairly quickly have a massivly powerful army without upkeep. In a couple of hundred turns, they would be unstopable.

It depends on how many she can uncroak at once. If you can mass-raise *and* have them not decay, then she could potentially almost double the size of Stanley's army each turn, i.e use 10 units to kill 5 units and you have 15 units at the start of the next turn. Once you are killing 1000 units with 2000 units, you are really starting to get powerful very quickly. (Also, in combat raising would make your current units even more powerful).

However, the power is balanced by the fact that it requires her to be present. At least with the hammer, it seems that the dragons are just added as a build option. In principle, Stanley doesn't need to actually lead them. (though has it been said that the hammer gives a bonus to dragons?).

[Oslecamo]

I could speculate more, but there aren't a lot of options for this. It has to be a fairly simple rule set, and even this may be too complex.

Simple? I highly doubt so. So far Efworld has showed to be quite a complex wargame:

1-Lots of options in basic combat like capturing, attack specific targets, divert, dismount, disarm.

2-Possible for multiple factions to fight each other in a FFA, instead of the typical team A x team B, and even for new sides to exit or enter a battle, plus neutral factions whitout cities of their own.

3-Units gain experience, level up, and can be promoted to stronger units, plus being equiped with special equipments.

4-Economic system where you can produce new units and have to pay upkeep, plus the possibility of buying special equipment.

5-Complex leadership system where several warlords can stack their bonuses and then the bonus is also affected by your distance to your units.

6-Complex loyalty system where you can persuade other units to fight for you but they can backstab you when you less expect it.

7-Mancers, nuff said, with plenty of special powers that mess up with all of the above.

So it's a very complex wargame with lots of rules and quircks. Remember that all this action hapened in what, 3-4 turns so far? It woud surely be a wargame that would take whole RL days to play a single big battle.

[kunsttyv]

...
Each battle has a declared Battlespace. Each Side has a turn order, but only inside that Battlespace.
...

I think you are overcomplicating things. We have Word of God that there is a natural turn order.

That someones turn starts at dawn does most likely mean that they haven't observed anyone elses turn before them. If Charlie isn't still allied with Jetstone (and therefore share their _later_ turn), he has already had his turn. Since all his remaining units are far away from Gobwin Knob, they were in no position to observe him, and his turn was not observed.

The turn order within a battlespace is the subset of the natural turnorder where just the turn order of the participating (and observed) sides are used/observed. Non-participating sides may have had their unobserved turns in between.

Think turnbased computer wargames.

[SteveMB]

if it's true that the arkenpliers are not in Wanda's hands anymore, and that this isn't because of some art blooper, I can only assume that the essence of the arkenpliers have absorbed into Ansom somehow, making him the living incarnation of the arkenpliers, which are attuned to Wanda.

Magic items can change size -- they may just be shrunken down for convenient storage. I mean, it's not like Wanda had cargo pockets in that outfit.

[Nenec]

Me too! [...]
Towards Wanda I have a mixture of attraction and fear. [...]

I had it cut cause it was too long to quote, but I agree with all you said, really!

[raphfrk]

Next up... how do you determine the size of the Battlespace?

Well, at day break, for each Side, determine what total area that could be reached. Next, determine where these areas overlap. Battlespace is wherever there is overlap. All units that can enter Battlespace are influenced by the Turn Order of that Battlespace. Units that are not capable of reaching Battlespace have normal day Turns.

That could very easily end up linking the whole world into 1 battlespace.

If you had 10 cities, which were in a line 50 moves apart and all had a 50+ move units based in their city, then they would all end up in the same battlespace.

The left 2 must be in the same battlespace, as they can interact, similarly, the 2nd and 3rd must be in the same battlespace, and so on, until all 10 are in the same space.

A possible algorithm would be something like

- All sides have a global turn order

- Each side is in 1 of 4 modes
-- Waiting
-- Locked
-- Moving
-- Finished

1) At dawn place all sides into Wait mode
2) Any waiting side which could interact with a moving side is placed in locked mode
3) Any locked side which cannot interact with a moving side is placed in waiting mode
4) If there are any waiting sides, place the global earliest of them into move mode and goto 2)
5) Wait for a moving side to end turn, place that side into finished mode and goto 2)
6) End day when all enter finished mode

This means in the 10 cities in a line case, it would go something like

At Dawn,
City 1 is placed into move mode
The causes City 2 to be locked
City 3 is placed into move mode
(and so on)
City 9 is placed into move mode
The causes City 10 to be locked

In effect, cities 1,3,5,7 and 9 would get to move at the start of their turn, since none of them can interact with each other.

When city 9 ends turn, then city 10 would be unable to interact with any moving side and would be shifted to wait mode, and then into move mode.

In effect, city 10 would get its turn after city 9 ends turn.

However, a city like city 6 would have to wait for both city 5 and city 7 to end turn before it gets to start.

There may also be "intent" involved, too.

That would certainly simplify things. It is implied that there are only 2 official states, war and allied between various sides, as your non-warlord controlled units must auto-attack all non-allied units. However, maybe there is also a peace state, which also prevents auto-attack. Alternatively, maybe you can't enter a hex which has units from a side that you are at peace with, without declaring war.

OTOH, if the world is broken up into fixed battlespaces, then you don't have to worry about any of that. You just need to add a rule for handling units passing through battlespace boundaries.

Ofc, all places we have seen so far are presumably in the same battlespace. This would mean that either Transylvito, have either left the battlespace already, or the pass was outside the GK battlespace.

[Welf]

A little thought: What happens to casters (and other special units) when they get decrypted? Will they stay casters/keep their special abilities? And can a unit be decrypted more than one time? If so, that would be incredible powerful.
Gk could send casters into the field and simply decrypt them if they croak. Use the masterclass foolamancer to veil troops, or send the dirtamancer with a lot of golems and some uncroaking and veiling spells to the front. And if it doesn't work, get the body with a strike force of dwagons. They could try to get an otherwise "useless" caster for fighting at the front.

[kunsttyv]

That could very easily end up linking the whole world into 1 battlespace.

And why is there any problem with that?

I would guess that time passes relative to observed events in this universe. The day that started with Charlie appearing in Gobwin Knob's airspace was the day as observed from Gobwin Knob. The archons had probably spent time (as observed by Charlie) getting there, but that time was not observed by GK.

Turns by sides not observed by your side use no obserable time from your side.

(still as it is in turn based computer games)

[raphfrk]

And why is there any problem with that?

I would guess that time passes relative to observed events in this universe. The day that started with Charlie appearing in Gobwin Knob's airspace was the day as observed from Gobwin Knob. The archons had probably spent time (as observed by Charlie) getting there, but that time was not observed by GK.

Turns by sides not observed by your side use no obserable time from your side.

Nice, in effect 'battlespace' is actually relative to each side rather than absolute. It means all sides that can interact with you this turn.

Time freezes for each side unless they can observe enemy movements. Ofc. this could cause problems with sides who have lookamancers, as they can potentially see a much wide area. They probably have a range inside which they can observe everything, but outside, they have to direct their attention.

In any case, GK doesn't have a lookamancer anymore.

[SteveD]

Here's a thought; does anyone left alive, except for Parson's side, know for certain that Ansom was killed?

I guess Charlie must have heard about it through the Archons...

[joosy]

Here's a thought; does anyone left alive, except for Parson's side, know for certain that Ansom was killed?

I guess Charlie must have heard about it through the Archons...

yes. Check the pages regarding the Transylvito group and Jillian again or have someone read them to you.


Hmm.. I wonder if the pliers have an "Encrypt" ability. muahahahahaha

[raphfrk]

[QUOTE=joosy;6053144
Hmm.. I wonder if the pliers have an "Encrypt" ability. muahahahahaha [/QUOTE]

For an even more game breaking effect, would that mean that she could cast "Cryptography" ("encrypt" coupled with "decrypt") and in effect flip the loyalty of a unit to Stanley's side (i.e. kill it and then uber-raise it)?

Even "Encrypt" would be pretty powerful as an instant kill spell. Ofc, that is balanced by the fact that Wanda would need to personally cast the spell and maybe it could be set to have a high 'juice' cost and/or have a high resist rate.

Another possible effect would be that it kills a unit and prevents the unit from being uncroaked, by anyone but Wanda (as it is 'encrypted'). This would help if you were fighting a croakamancer side who were using your units against you. Ofc, Wanda can probably flash kill them using the pliers anyway. (If Ansom requires touch to activate the abilty, then maybe Wanda can cast it at range/at multiple targets).

[chefsotero]

Here's a thought; does anyone left alive, except for Parson's side, know for certain that Ansom was killed?

I guess Charlie must have heard about it through the Archons...

Its common knowledg now, Anson's side knows by natural thinkmancy,they told so to TV (or to someone that told TV) and Jillian + Vinnie know because of that.

EDIT: ninja'd

[Ikialev]

Wait, what happened.
I seriously don't get it. ;<

[joosy]

Wait, what happened.
I seriously don't get it. ;<

uh. a new comic was posted?

Stanley talked to Maggie, he, Jack, and the rest are on their way back to GK. They will most likely get there this round if nothing gets in their way.

GK's turn started at dawn indicating noone was actively opposing them.
A new dragon popped -it was in the production queue apparently.

Parson wondered what GK shoud do this turn and Wanda decided that they should use the abilities of her newly Attuned Arkenpliers to create a new unit from corpses via the "DeCrypt" spell.

Ansom is now 'decrypted' and appears to be a brand new type of unit or an improvement on an old one.

We will have to wait for future comics for the questions raised today to be answered in full. Otherwise its plain speculation but hopefully EDUCATED and INTELLIGENT guesses.

[Kreistor]

I think you are overcomplicating things. We have Word of God that there is a natural turn order.

And now we have strong implication that the order only matters when people are in "battlespace". It's not inconsistent with previous rules, it's just a new state of affairs for the comic: Gk has been Battlespace since Page 2.

That someones turn starts at dawn does most likely mean that they haven't observed anyone elses turn before them.

So time for someone else takes sero time? You instantly stop, are frozen in time while everyone else moves before and after you? That's likely, yeah.

Nah, simultaneous movement seems more likely to me.

If Charlie isn't still allied with Jetstone (and therefore share their _later_ turn), he has already had his turn.

Or, time doesn't stop except in local regions and Sides that can't (or won't) influence each other act simultaneously.

Oh, and BTW, Transylvito and Jillian also act before Stanley, so they would have had to move already. I doubt Rob has skipped that, so we'll see them quite soon. I thik that's the best evidence that time stop doesn't exist: Jillian arriving in Faq will be an event to watch.

The turn order within a battlespace is the subset of the natural turnorder where just the turn order of the participating (and observed) sides are used/observed.

Or, every time a battlespace is created, a new and local turn order is created. It's natural, but for that battlespace only. We didn't know Battlespace existed before. Prepare for an expansion on the rules. Rob's stated that he's going to clear a lot of the questions up before starting the next Act.

Non-participating sides may have had their unobserved turns in between.

Okay, here's one for you... if a Lookamancer from Charlescomm early on scryed on the battle of GK before he sent his Archons, then what would the Lookamancer see? Dead stopped time? What about a Thinkamancer mindlink? You can't Mindlink into an area where time isn't moving.

Think turnbased computer wargames.

Your suggeestion has big problems for casting. I can't agree at all that it could happen. For instance, Ansom might not have been able to contact Charlescomm to bring in the Archons.

Actually, there's one piece of evidence that tells us it can't be your way. You can't cast except on your own turn, or if attacked. How could the transylvito Thinkamancers have communicated to anyone else asking what happened in GK? First, their turn was long over since TV moved first, second it was nighttime after turn, third they were not in combat. the only resolution is that when you're not in battlespace, and you can cast all day long. Heck, your way, they couldn't have communicated to anyone, ever. Everyone else is dead stopped while you take Turn.

[kreszantas]

Magic items can change size -- they may just be shrunken down for convenient storage. I mean, it's not like Wanda had cargo pockets in that outfit.

SteveMB I will agree with line of thinking and add that look at Wanda's outfit closely in panels 7 & 11 where the red flairs or markings or tattoo's whatever want to call it form to make an upside down handle from the pliers, where the actual decrypt takes place her hand and the VFX getting the way of that part of the outfit to 'make it appear' that they are selective in appearance. A caster with her level of ability should be able to do something similar to what Stanley did with the eyebook.

[joosy]

Actually, there's one piece of evidence that tells us it can't be your way. You can't cast except on your own turn, or if attacked. How could the transylvito Thinkamancers have communicated to anyone else asking what happened in GK? First, their turn was long over since TV moved first, second it was nighttime after turn, third they were not in combat. the only resolution is that when you're not in battlespace, and you can cast all day long. Heck, your way, they couldn't have communicated to anyone, ever. Everyone else is dead stopped while you take Turn.

It's already been established that you can cast communication only Thinkamancy spells no matter when. The only limitation is the amount of 'juice' your caster has or Thinkamancy scrolls you have onhand.

I agree with you on your disagreeing about the 'freezing time' or non-observed turns.

I think we are overthinking Battlespace. I don't believe it can be a physical limitation based on what we have seen here. It is just a way to describe and control the actions (explicitly turn order) of factions in active opposition to each other.

I WOULD like to see how Turnamancy affects battlespace. Assuming it affects Turn order or number of turns.. that would be trippy.

[joosy]

I think we are way overthinking the 'Case of the Missing Arkenpliers'. Just because the pliers aren't in her hand or not 'visible' doesn't mean they are 'gone'.

Its a drawing; not an actual photograph. Jamie probably just wanted to draw Wanda's hips and got tired of drawing pliers.

There were several shots of Ansom where the Pliers weren't visible but he clearly had them.

So you can't see the pliers but its okay. They are still there.
Relax take a deep breath and go watch X-Men and come back in a week for the next installment of the battle of Gobwin Knob!

[Kilkrazy]

If you look at a game like Advance Wars, the enemy's (or other players') turns only matter when they are within range and can interact with your units. If you play the game on "Fog Of War" and no animation of enemy unit movement, their turn will be over in an instant unless they move into range of one of your units.

Of course when human players are involved, they take time to make moves and you are aware of the time passing, but in game terms your side observes nothing before the start of its turn.

Battlespace -- if it is a genuine concept in Erfworld rather than a wargamey buzzword -- must work in a similar way.

[Suicide Junkie]

If you look at a game like Advance Wars, the enemy's (or other players') turns only matter when they are within range and can interact with your units. If you play the game on "Fog Of War" and no animation of enemy unit movement, their turn will be over in an instant unless they move into range of one of your units.

Exactly: "Dawn. And... (...wait for it...) our turn!"

Seems that everybody skips the cutscenes in Erfworld, but it still takes a fraction of a second of the non-observer's time to process the events.

[multilis]

It is still possible that pliers deal with opposite of uncroaking (healing) and Ansom is a spirt warrior type unit.

One option is Wanda may hop on back of newly popped dragon and fly away. (Croaking and uncroaking dragon first if needed to get control)

[Kreistor]

It's already been established that you can cast communication only Thinkamancy spells no matter when. The only limitation is the amount of 'juice' your caster has or Thinkamancy scrolls you have onhand.

I agree with you on your disagreeing about the 'freezing time' or non-observed turns.

I think we are overthinking Battlespace. I don't believe it can be a physical limitation based on what we have seen here. It is just a way to describe and control the actions (explicitly turn order) of factions in active opposition to each other.

I WOULD like to see how Turnamancy affects battlespace. Assuming it affects Turn order or number of turns.. that would be trippy.

Was this based on anyone besides Maggie? All other Thinkamancers were in cities outside of the Battlespace for this battle.

[joosy]

It is still possible that pliers deal with opposite of uncroaking (healing) and Ansom is a spirt warrior type unit.

One option is Wanda may hop on back of newly popped dragon and fly away. (Croaking and uncroaking dragon first if needed to get control)

and it also possible that a pig could pop, grow wings and follow her.

Wanda still has loyalty and duty to Stanley. Stanley can still disband her with a word. She would need to off or incapacitate Stanley before doing this. Stanley has no heir so all GK units would go Barbarian if Stanley were killed. Wanda may survive if she switches loyalty back to Jillian but that makes no sense plotwise.

The story foreshadowing indicates that the fates of FAQ, Jillian, and the last remnants of Gobwin Knob are all entwined and will hopefully be wrapped up or at least brought closer together at the end of this chapter.

I agree with DevilDan on Wanda:

We cannot possibly guess Wanda's motivations or her next actions: her actions are grounded in a prophecy, one whose accuracy has been recently revalidated

[joosy]

Was this based on anyone besides Maggie? All other Thinkamancers were in cities outside of the Battlespace for this battle.

Hmm.. maybe that could be a factor. I see Thinkamancy communications being sent during nighttime which is off turn for everyone. But you are right, I don't see opponents communicating via Thinkamancy off turn. My initial claim on Thinkamancy off turn turned out to be units receiving Think-a-grams - not sending.

The only exception is the Eyebooks but I don't think those count.

[Zangi]

On the matter of croakamancy:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0128.html

Any sort of Croakamancy should stick to the same concept, even with the ArkenPlier... It is still a game after all.
And a need for some sort of balance, which does not include an 'unlimited churn X # of 0 upkeep units out that don't decay ability...'

So yea, the more you uncroak... the less powerful they are. Which means... if Wanda focuses her decrypt spell on only Ansom, he would be... more likely at his 'peak' power... and the unexpected result in this latest comic...

If Wanda decided to decrypt everyone, more then likely everyone would be simple uncroaked... but higher tier and longer lasting then normal without ArkenPlier.
The general idea? No immediate threat... So why uncroak everyone and wasting some uber potential warlords like Ansom? Especially when Wanda doesn't even know the true extent of its powers...

Thats my take on this anyways...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And the turn issue on Stanley's end: I've only seen "Fog of War" mentioned once. And the illusion spell by Jack... Which makes Stanley and crew near impossible to find... and very dangerous if they split up to look. More casualties then would be necessary to go on a wild goose hunt.
Jack is supposedly master class and bats are low level, even if they are in mass numbers. Sending warlords and archons around individually, who have only some better chance of spotting the illusion is asking to get picked off.

Its also implied that TV abandoned the idea of chasing Stanley to take the city before him. Since thats where they expect Stanley to go.

[The Rizz]

Its also implied that TV abandoned the idea of chasing Stanley to take the city before him. Since thats where they expect Stanley to go.

Actually, I think they abandoned the idea because while they know a trap killed every single RCC unit in the battlespace, it's unlikely that they would even think that GK's forces were destroyed as well. At this point, odds are they think that GK's losing battle was a ruse to get all their units close enough to trap-croak them all at once, and that GK is still standing and still heavily defended. Add Stanley + dwagons returning to GK, and they assume that a dozen warlords + bats vs. GK + defenses + uber-traps = suicide mission.

On another note, about the Decrypted Ansom; I don't think he's actually undead at all. The undead seen so far have all had gray-hued features (gray-green for uncroaked, gray-blue for vampires). ReAnsom, on the other hand, has a "living" color to his flesh, an indicator that whatever he is, it's not undead.