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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyJimBoBob View Post
    I don't recall it mentioned at all. But regardless, we know it exists. It has been shown. Check the third and sixth panels. The "foggy" hexes are those that the RCC has no intel on, including the center hex of the donut.
    Yeah -- the words "fog of war" haven't been used in the comic, but the concept is fundamental to Parson's (v2.0) dwagon-donut plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Happydork View Post
    If I were parson I would recommend that the veil be of GK at near full strength with only minor damage to the outer and inner walls. I would then use the dwagons to kill any scouts. The opposition will probably not send in warlords to scout if the dwagons attack in strength since the scouting warlord would die. No warlord = no way to see through the veil. The only way an intelligent side could break the veil would be to bring a large enough force in with a warlord to ensure that the valuable warlord would survive. After what happened at GK, I doubt anyone would be willing to take that risk.
    The problem is that at least one potential enemy (Charlie) knows that Gobwin Knob is (at least) mostly in ruins -- he saw everything up to the end.
    Last edited by SteveMB; 2009-05-01 at 01:18 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    The problem is that at least one potential enemy (Charlie) knows that Gobwin Knob is (at least) mostly in ruins -- he saw everything up to the end.
    See, I think that plan is genius! And yes, you're right, it wouldn't fool Charlie - but he's not the type to spread information without being paid for it, and I don't think anyone is hiring him for a while.

  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    He knows basically up to when the city became level 1, after that, the archons fell from the sky in burning heaps

  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    Quote Originally Posted by Happydork View Post
    If the decrypted units don't decompose and don't require upkeep, they are a game breaker. Stanley could fairly quickly have a massivly powerful army without upkeep. In a couple of hundred turns, they would be unstopable.
    sizemore can already make crap golems with magic & i'd imagine that other types of magic can make units too (lots of people think the cloth golems are dollamancy), so i don't think it would be that game-breaking.
    plus de-crypting has the disadvantage of having to get into a battle and win before being able to create the unit.
    Avatar by SteveMB, from Erfworld (written by Rob Balder and illustrated by Jamie Noguchi)

  5. - Top - End - #245
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    Imagine Jillian's reaction to seeing Ansom as Wanda's replacement playtoy.

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    Quote Originally Posted by Thydron View Post
    plus de-crypting has the disadvantage of having to get into a battle and win before being able to create the unit.
    It also has the advantage of faster growth of the tool based units if successful.

    "Game breaking"... Archons and dragons if *used right* can be game breaking, likely the same is true of results of any of the tools.
    Last edited by multilis; 2009-05-01 at 08:06 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    Quote Originally Posted by multilis View Post
    "Game breaking"... Archons and dragons if *used right* can be game breaking, likely the same is true of results of any of the tools.
    If Dragons are built purely like normal units, then their power level is determined by their cost to benefit ratio. For game breaking status, they would need to be cheap compared to standard units of an equal power level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thydron View Post
    plus de-crypting has the disadvantage of having to get into a battle and win before being able to create the unit.
    Thinking about it, it is unclear if corpses can be transported. The rule is that they disappear if their aren't moved. However, it isn't clear if it is legal to move them across zone boundaries. If it is allowed, then in principle, dead bodies could be transported back from the battlefield to the nearest city or other fortified location.
    Last edited by raphfrk; 2009-05-01 at 08:15 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    Long ago there was a discussion on how Erf-World appeared to operate at two levels. The grand strategic level where units cross and engage in an overall battle, than the up-close and personal level.

    It is possible that everything which happens inside a hex is all just special effects and visual flash expressing a general outcome. I think there really are explicit rules for personal combat inside the hexes, but even they can only express so much, leaving the rest of the action as colorful detail.

    What I'm leading up is that "incinerated by lava" and "buried under tons of rock" could be just be ugly details important for personal combat, but with no effect on the larger game except as a way to croak units. If so, maybe all of the croaked units in GK are accessible to Wanda! The rules might read, "Units croaked in a hex can be un-croaked the next day." Period.

    Even before she had the pliers she was able to do a mass uncroak, albeit creating weak units. With the pliers and that many corpses, she could have an instant major army. Worse, she has a lot of really good material to work with. About a dozen Archons, at least several enemy warlords, not to mention GK's own fallen Knights and spidews, and lot more of the other side's equivalent heavies.
    Last edited by Goshen; 2009-05-01 at 10:57 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDan View Post
    Thanks, Dr Pepper. I shall call him Unsom.
    Unsom! That's a really clever way for us to refer to the resurrected Prince...

  10. - Top - End - #250
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    smile Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshen View Post
    Long ago there was a discussion on how Erf-World appeared to operate at two levels. The grand strategic level where units cross and engage in an overall battle, than the up-close and personal level.

    It is possible that everything which happens inside a hex is all just special effects and visual flash expressing a general outcome. I think there really are explicit rules for personal combat inside the hexes, but even they can only express so much, leaving the rest of the action as colorful detail.

    What I'm leading up is that "incinerated by lava" and "buried under tons of rock" could be just be ugly details important for personal combat, but with no effect on the larger game except as a way to croak units. If so, maybe all of the croaked units in GK are accessible to Wanda! The rules might read, "Units croaked in a hex can be un-croaked the next day." Period.

    Even before she had the pliers she was able to do a mass uncroak, albeit creating weak units. With the pliers and that many corpses, she could have an instant major army. Worse, she has a lot of really good material to work with. About a dozen Archons, at least several enemy warlords, not to mention GK's own fallen Knights and spidews, and lot more of the other side's equivalent heavies.

    The new turn has started. I think that any bodies not moved, would have dissapeared. Right?

  11. - Top - End - #251
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    Quote Originally Posted by Spot View Post
    The new turn has started. I think that any bodies not moved, would have dissapeared. Right?
    I was under the impression that bodies disappeared that the start of the next turn.

    It is too much to hope for but I do wish they could bring Misty back <sigh>.

    Or at least all of those archons.

  12. - Top - End - #252
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    Quote Originally Posted by joosy View Post
    I was under the impression that bodies disappeared that the start of the next turn.
    Right. Plus, they very clearly haven't disappeared - see the hand sticking out of the dirt in panel 5 of the current comic. They should disappear at the start of RCC's turn (Jetstone's?).

  13. - Top - End - #253
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    No, they disappear at beginning of their side's next Turn, unless moved/claimed. Rob wrote that into the Wiki. Wanda claimed Ansom's corpse before dawn, and so before start of Turn for Jetstone.

  14. - Top - End - #254
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    Quote Originally Posted by Pointyleaf View Post
    Right. Plus, they very clearly haven't disappeared - see the hand sticking out of the dirt in panel 5 of the current comic. They should disappear at the start of RCC's turn (Jetstone's?).
    I don't think RCC exists anymore, it has been disbanded, and Jetstone would probably have a turn around the same time as Gobwin Knob unless they were in conflict with someone else.

    I think either that body had been moved after it died or there is a small time delay before garbage collection happens. Most likely the body has been moved since the volcano would have shifted lots of stuff around even after it killed everyone.

  15. - Top - End - #255
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    Quote Originally Posted by Glome View Post
    Most likely the body has been moved since the volcano would have shifted lots of stuff around even after it killed everyone.
    I forget who, but someone pointed out that while Sizemore was manipulating the volcano to move gems around, Wanda might have been using it to move corpses.

  16. - Top - End - #256
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    Quote Originally Posted by Glome View Post
    I don't think RCC exists anymore, it has been disbanded, ...
    I thought the RCC was the alliance between the sides, not just the troops attacking GK, so even though the invading army is dead, the alliance would survive - who knows, the RCC might just devote more troops and attack again. - or at least spend a few turns communicating to each other. I think it would be silly of the RCC members to disband an alliance now, right after they have all been weakened.

    So anyway, if that is the case, and the RCC is still a 'side', then Wanda has this whole turn to uncroak / decrypt as many of them as she can/wants. - That hand sticking out the ground is presumably an RCC unit, and it will decay when the RCC turn begins, after GK.**

    GK's units would have decayed at the moment the GK turn started, so although there is a slim hope for misty, there is none for the spidews etc, and probably not bogroll either.

    ** Now the use of the term Battlespace interests me, because its made a few people (myself included) wonder about the natural turn order. If the RCC, being still a side but not in the 'battlespace' get their turn at the same time at GK, then that hand shouldn't be there. If they take their turn after, but time freezes for them while GK takes their turn, then how can you use your off-turn abilities (thinkamancy, for one) during someone else's turn?

    So I'm interested to see if this 'rule' is clarified.

  17. - Top - End - #257
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    Quote Originally Posted by Medikella View Post
    I thought the RCC was the alliance between the sides, not just the troops attacking GK, so even though the invading army is dead, the alliance would survive - who knows, the RCC might just devote more troops and attack again. - or at least spend a few turns communicating to each other. I think it would be silly of the RCC members to disband an alliance now, right after they have all been weakened.

    Panel 10 "She called Jetsone. They confirm: the Coalition's dissolved"
    Last edited by Frogpop; 2009-05-02 at 02:24 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #258
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    IMO other sides should have a turn and chance to uncroak before the bodies disappear (unless one uses a cheat/exploit).

    Simply losing everything and thus not being in battlespace would be relatively common, mechanics probably in such a situation give others a chance before disappearing. (Otherwise uncroak/uncrypt would be crippled in decisive wins)
    Last edited by multilis; 2009-05-02 at 02:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    Quote Originally Posted by Frogpop View Post
    Panel 10 "She called Jetsone. They confirm: the Coalition's dissolved"
    Nice one. Thanks :)

  20. - Top - End - #260
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    It's possible that the body parts shown are just scenery.

  21. - Top - End - #261
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshen View Post
    Long ago there was a discussion on how Erf-World appeared to operate at two levels. The grand strategic level where units cross and engage in an overall battle, than the up-close and personal level.

    It is possible that everything which happens inside a hex is all just special effects and visual flash expressing a general outcome. I think there really are explicit rules for personal combat inside the hexes, but even they can only express so much, leaving the rest of the action as colorful detail.

    What I'm leading up is that "incinerated by lava" and "buried under tons of rock" could be just be ugly details important for personal combat, but with no effect on the larger game except as a way to croak units. <snip>
    It's a nice idea and works for much of the story, but several times we see combat-tactics being a factor. For instance Jillian likes to use her units to distract the enemy's front line so that she can get a shot in on the enemy's toughest unit. She did it here and here. More significantly Parson directs the action from afar in the sequence of pages when Jillian croaks the wounded dwagons over the lake. If combat was just a cutscene, Parson wouldn't be able to adjust stacks and make the croak/capture choice in the middle of the battle.

  22. - Top - End - #262
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    Quote Originally Posted by multilis View Post
    IMO other sides should have a turn and chance to uncroak before the bodies disappear (unless one uses a cheat/exploit).

    Simply losing everything and thus not being in battlespace would be relatively common, mechanics probably in such a situation give others a chance before disappearing. (Otherwise uncroak/uncrypt would be crippled in decisive wins)
    Sizemore said that bodies disappear at the beginning of the turn if they are not moved, not the beginning of the day. So whose turn do they disappear on? I can think of three likely cases: the turn of the side controlling the hex, the turn of the croaked corpse, or the turn of the side that had the move when the unit croaked. The first one would be unfair to the defending side, but the third one would ensure that the corpse hung around for a full day, thus giving everyone a fair chance to uncroak it, so I favor it.

  23. - Top - End - #263
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    The corpses hang around until the turn of their former side. We know that, because Parson hoped to have the RCCs corpses to uncroak on GKs next turn (panel 7): http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0138.html
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshen View Post
    It is possible that everything which happens inside a hex is all just special effects and visual flash expressing a general outcome. I think there really are explicit rules for personal combat inside the hexes, but even they can only express so much, leaving the rest of the action as colorful detail.

    What I'm leading up is that "incinerated by lava" and "buried under tons of rock" could be just be ugly details important for personal combat, but with no effect on the larger game except as a way to croak units.
    Makes sense. All you do in Risk is roll dice and move tokens which are highly abstracted from anything that happens on a real battlefield. But that doesn't stop players from spinning stories about what happened in a turn. "Hah! Thought your horde could take Kamchatka, you didn't count on our giant battle gerbils!"
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  25. - Top - End - #265
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    It's a nice idea and works for much of the story, but several times we see combat-tactics being a factor. For instance Jillian likes to use her units to distract the enemy's front line so that she can get a shot in on the enemy's toughest unit. She did it here and here. More significantly Parson directs the action from afar in the sequence of pages when Jillian croaks the wounded dwagons over the lake. If combat was just a cutscene, Parson wouldn't be able to adjust stacks and make the croak/capture choice in the middle of the battle.
    There is no telling whether Jillian's (bad) decision to sic the Orlies on the dwagons gave her side a minus modifier to her combat die roll, or whether it was the result of a bad combat die roll. (It's more complex than that in detail, of course.)

    It's the difference between a wargame and an RPG. In a wargame, you have a +2 combat factor and this makes it look like you attack the dwagon's belly. In an RPG you get a +2 combat factor because you attack the dwagon's belly.

    No-one in Erfworld except Parson apparently understands how the combat system works, thus any decisions units take about tactics are either random or based on intuition generated from experience (and probably wrong.)
    Last edited by Kilkrazy; 2009-05-02 at 02:35 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #266
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilkrazy View Post
    There is no telling whether Jillian's (bad) decision to sic the Orlies on the dwagons gave her side a minus modifier to her combat die roll, or whether it was the result of a bad combat die roll. (It's more complex than that in detail, of course.)
    Yes, but if combat was a pre-determined cutscene, Parson would not have been able to influence it's outcome while it was occurring, which he clearly was by issuing tactical orders to the troops involved.

    Besides, from a storytelling perspective it's a bad idea (and IMO Rob is better that that). Having all of the combatants actions be the result of a cosmic combat system undercuts the already existing contemplations about free will. It's the difference between a puppet and a brainwashed person. The puppet has no free will whatsoever, to the point where they are literally controlled by an outside force. The brainwashed person is in control of their actions, but not their decision making process. The latter is much creepier and much more interesting, and is also already known to be the case in Erfworld (via Loyalty and Duty).
    Last edited by fendrin; 2009-05-02 at 03:22 PM.

  27. - Top - End - #267
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    Yes, but if combat was a pre-determined cutscene, Parson would not have been able to influence it's outcome while it was occurring, which he clearly was by issuing tactical orders to the troops involved...
    I agree with you to a point. As your example shows, having micro-level rules for personal combat affect the macro level makes sense. It provides a better model to describe how thing work in Erfworld. However, you could always explain anything away as a cut scene, just as Dr. Pepper pointed out.

    My point is that the micro-rules (if they do exist) will only explain so much. If the Titans did not think to put in special rules for the destruction of bodies by lava or being trapped under tons of stone, then all those corpses are still there and fair game for Wanda.

  28. - Top - End - #268
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    Default Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshen View Post
    I agree with you to a point. As your example shows, having micro-level rules for personal combat affect the macro level makes sense. It provides a better model to describe how thing work in Erfworld. However, you could always explain anything away as a cut scene, just as Dr. Pepper pointed out.
    Erm, no. If it were a cutscene, Parson would not have been able to control what was happening to that degree(that's part of the definition of being a cutscene). He was able to give the restack and croak orders. Therefore it was not a cutscene. Unless you want to say that Parson's orders were part of the cutscene, but I think he would have had something to say about that, like he did about being forced to laugh.

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