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Thread: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144
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2009-05-01, 01:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144
Yeah -- the words "fog of war" haven't been used in the comic, but the concept is fundamental to Parson's (v2.0) dwagon-donut plan.
The problem is that at least one potential enemy (Charlie) knows that Gobwin Knob is (at least) mostly in ruins -- he saw everything up to the end.Last edited by SteveMB; 2009-05-01 at 01:18 PM.
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2009-05-01, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-05-01, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144
He knows basically up to when the city became level 1, after that, the archons fell from the sky in burning heaps
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2009-05-01, 06:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144
sizemore can already make crap golems with magic & i'd imagine that other types of magic can make units too (lots of people think the cloth golems are dollamancy), so i don't think it would be that game-breaking.
plus de-crypting has the disadvantage of having to get into a battle and win before being able to create the unit.Avatar by SteveMB, from Erfworld (written by Rob Balder and illustrated by Jamie Noguchi)
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2009-05-01, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144
Imagine Jillian's reaction to seeing Ansom as Wanda's replacement playtoy.
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2009-05-01, 08:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144
Last edited by multilis; 2009-05-01 at 08:06 PM.
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2009-05-01, 08:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144
If Dragons are built purely like normal units, then their power level is determined by their cost to benefit ratio. For game breaking status, they would need to be cheap compared to standard units of an equal power level.
Thinking about it, it is unclear if corpses can be transported. The rule is that they disappear if their aren't moved. However, it isn't clear if it is legal to move them across zone boundaries. If it is allowed, then in principle, dead bodies could be transported back from the battlefield to the nearest city or other fortified location.Last edited by raphfrk; 2009-05-01 at 08:15 PM.
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2009-05-01, 10:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144
Long ago there was a discussion on how Erf-World appeared to operate at two levels. The grand strategic level where units cross and engage in an overall battle, than the up-close and personal level.
It is possible that everything which happens inside a hex is all just special effects and visual flash expressing a general outcome. I think there really are explicit rules for personal combat inside the hexes, but even they can only express so much, leaving the rest of the action as colorful detail.
What I'm leading up is that "incinerated by lava" and "buried under tons of rock" could be just be ugly details important for personal combat, but with no effect on the larger game except as a way to croak units. If so, maybe all of the croaked units in GK are accessible to Wanda! The rules might read, "Units croaked in a hex can be un-croaked the next day." Period.
Even before she had the pliers she was able to do a mass uncroak, albeit creating weak units. With the pliers and that many corpses, she could have an instant major army. Worse, she has a lot of really good material to work with. About a dozen Archons, at least several enemy warlords, not to mention GK's own fallen Knights and spidews, and lot more of the other side's equivalent heavies.Last edited by Goshen; 2009-05-01 at 10:57 PM.
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2009-05-01, 11:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-05-01, 11:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-05-01, 11:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-05-02, 12:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144
Right. Plus, they very clearly haven't disappeared - see the hand sticking out of the dirt in panel 5 of the current comic. They should disappear at the start of RCC's turn (Jetstone's?).
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2009-05-02, 12:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144
No, they disappear at beginning of their side's next Turn, unless moved/claimed. Rob wrote that into the Wiki. Wanda claimed Ansom's corpse before dawn, and so before start of Turn for Jetstone.
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2009-05-02, 12:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144
I don't think RCC exists anymore, it has been disbanded, and Jetstone would probably have a turn around the same time as Gobwin Knob unless they were in conflict with someone else.
I think either that body had been moved after it died or there is a small time delay before garbage collection happens. Most likely the body has been moved since the volcano would have shifted lots of stuff around even after it killed everyone.
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2009-05-02, 02:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-05-02, 02:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144
I thought the RCC was the alliance between the sides, not just the troops attacking GK, so even though the invading army is dead, the alliance would survive - who knows, the RCC might just devote more troops and attack again. - or at least spend a few turns communicating to each other. I think it would be silly of the RCC members to disband an alliance now, right after they have all been weakened.
So anyway, if that is the case, and the RCC is still a 'side', then Wanda has this whole turn to uncroak / decrypt as many of them as she can/wants. - That hand sticking out the ground is presumably an RCC unit, and it will decay when the RCC turn begins, after GK.**
GK's units would have decayed at the moment the GK turn started, so although there is a slim hope for misty, there is none for the spidews etc, and probably not bogroll either.
** Now the use of the term Battlespace interests me, because its made a few people (myself included) wonder about the natural turn order. If the RCC, being still a side but not in the 'battlespace' get their turn at the same time at GK, then that hand shouldn't be there. If they take their turn after, but time freezes for them while GK takes their turn, then how can you use your off-turn abilities (thinkamancy, for one) during someone else's turn?
So I'm interested to see if this 'rule' is clarified.
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2009-05-02, 02:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144
Panel 10 "She called Jetsone. They confirm: the Coalition's dissolved"Last edited by Frogpop; 2009-05-02 at 02:24 AM.
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2009-05-02, 02:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144
IMO other sides should have a turn and chance to uncroak before the bodies disappear (unless one uses a cheat/exploit).
Simply losing everything and thus not being in battlespace would be relatively common, mechanics probably in such a situation give others a chance before disappearing. (Otherwise uncroak/uncrypt would be crippled in decisive wins)Last edited by multilis; 2009-05-02 at 02:30 AM.
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2009-05-02, 02:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-05-02, 03:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144
It's possible that the body parts shown are just scenery.
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2009-05-02, 06:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144
It's a nice idea and works for much of the story, but several times we see combat-tactics being a factor. For instance Jillian likes to use her units to distract the enemy's front line so that she can get a shot in on the enemy's toughest unit. She did it here and here. More significantly Parson directs the action from afar in the sequence of pages when Jillian croaks the wounded dwagons over the lake. If combat was just a cutscene, Parson wouldn't be able to adjust stacks and make the croak/capture choice in the middle of the battle.
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2009-05-02, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144
Sizemore said that bodies disappear at the beginning of the turn if they are not moved, not the beginning of the day. So whose turn do they disappear on? I can think of three likely cases: the turn of the side controlling the hex, the turn of the croaked corpse, or the turn of the side that had the move when the unit croaked. The first one would be unfair to the defending side, but the third one would ensure that the corpse hung around for a full day, thus giving everyone a fair chance to uncroak it, so I favor it.
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2009-05-02, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144
The corpses hang around until the turn of their former side. We know that, because Parson hoped to have the RCCs corpses to uncroak on GKs next turn (panel 7): http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0138.html
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2009-05-02, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144
Makes sense. All you do in Risk is roll dice and move tokens which are highly abstracted from anything that happens on a real battlefield. But that doesn't stop players from spinning stories about what happened in a turn. "Hah! Thought your horde could take Kamchatka, you didn't count on our giant battle gerbils!"
NOGENERATION Aleph(0): Copy this into your sig and add or subtract 1 whenever you feel like it. This is a pointless experiment.
10 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
. . . . . . Dr Pepper
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . .4
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2009-05-02, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144
There is no telling whether Jillian's (bad) decision to sic the Orlies on the dwagons gave her side a minus modifier to her combat die roll, or whether it was the result of a bad combat die roll. (It's more complex than that in detail, of course.)
It's the difference between a wargame and an RPG. In a wargame, you have a +2 combat factor and this makes it look like you attack the dwagon's belly. In an RPG you get a +2 combat factor because you attack the dwagon's belly.
No-one in Erfworld except Parson apparently understands how the combat system works, thus any decisions units take about tactics are either random or based on intuition generated from experience (and probably wrong.)Last edited by Kilkrazy; 2009-05-02 at 02:35 PM.
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2009-05-02, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144
Yes, but if combat was a pre-determined cutscene, Parson would not have been able to influence it's outcome while it was occurring, which he clearly was by issuing tactical orders to the troops involved.
Besides, from a storytelling perspective it's a bad idea (and IMO Rob is better that that). Having all of the combatants actions be the result of a cosmic combat system undercuts the already existing contemplations about free will. It's the difference between a puppet and a brainwashed person. The puppet has no free will whatsoever, to the point where they are literally controlled by an outside force. The brainwashed person is in control of their actions, but not their decision making process. The latter is much creepier and much more interesting, and is also already known to be the case in Erfworld (via Loyalty and Duty).Last edited by fendrin; 2009-05-02 at 03:22 PM.
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2009-05-02, 09:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144
I agree with you to a point. As your example shows, having micro-level rules for personal combat affect the macro level makes sense. It provides a better model to describe how thing work in Erfworld. However, you could always explain anything away as a cut scene, just as Dr. Pepper pointed out.
My point is that the micro-rules (if they do exist) will only explain so much. If the Titans did not think to put in special rules for the destruction of bodies by lava or being trapped under tons of stone, then all those corpses are still there and fair game for Wanda.
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2009-05-04, 08:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Erfworld 157 - tBfGK 144
Erm, no. If it were a cutscene, Parson would not have been able to control what was happening to that degree(that's part of the definition of being a cutscene). He was able to give the restack and croak orders. Therefore it was not a cutscene. Unless you want to say that Parson's orders were part of the cutscene, but I think he would have had something to say about that, like he did about being forced to laugh.