[3.5] Help me challenge a ToB party

[Draz74]

Give the shield a name and a history and some other distinctive features. As long as the random treasure is unbalancing the game, you might as well take advantage of it for roleplaying purposes and pretend you were an awesome DM all along who was planning to mix up the story with an overpowered magic item. (Sounds like you're already using this general principle well, with the Devil set up to become a recurring villain.)

Part of this will mean that others come looking for the shield -- bandits, stuffy pompous aristocrats who claim (with forged documents) that the shield is theirs, etc. Don't necessarily take it away from the PCs in the process -- players hate that -- but make them work for the privilege of keeping it, until they get to be a high enough level that it's no longer an overpowered item.

Side note: how were they unable to kill the Devil? Either they were able to pound it hard enough to get it to -40 in spite of the DR, or they weren't. In the first case, it's dead (well, banished). In the second case, they shouldn't have been able to tie it up without some impressive grappling.

[quick_comment]

ToB parties run on different mechanics. Basically, with a traditional party, you can send monsters at them until the casters run out of spells.

In a ToB party, this never happens. The crusader never runs out. The warblade can refresh his manuvers with a swift + std action and the swordsage has adaptive style and can refresh as a full round action.

Also, against ToB, DR is not very important. Most martial adepts will have at least 1 stone dragon strike that busts right through DR.

I think its great to send martial adept monsters against the party.

Warblade: I use diamond nightmare blade, I hit AC 30 and do a kajillion damage.
DM: The monster initiates Manticore parry, you hit the team's crusader.
Crusader: Im almost dead, but my damage pool keeps me conscious. I use revitalizing strike to heal up.

Putting martial adepts against the party forces them to think and work together, tactically. It becomes much more than

Caster: I cast mass haste and GMW on the barbarian.
Barbarian: I charge. Rawr!
Monk: I sit down and play the fiddle.

etc.

[Frosty]

Shouldn't the monk be weaving baskets underwater or something?

[quick_comment]

Shouldn't the monk be weaving baskets underwater or something?

Profession: Fiddler is based on wisdom, while Craft: Baskets is based on int, so the monk is probably a better fiddler

[streakster]

...and the monk must be a grig.

[Drogorn]

Side note: how were they unable to kill the Devil? Either they were able to pound it hard enough to get it to -40 in spite of the DR, or they weren't. In the first case, it's dead (well, banished). In the second case, they shouldn't have been able to tie it up without some impressive grappling.

Kytons have regeneration.

[742]

well its been said before, but yes, throwing the same type of critter at them over and over (simple melee. sometimes quality sometimes quantity) obviously isnt going to work. throw something more interesting, wizards and mobile foes have been suggested. if they are good aligned put them in a situation with sneaky foes, who hit with a ranged attack, then hide in a crowd (maybe dopplegangers?) where they might be afraid to cause collateral damage. have them rescue some prisoners, only to have at least one of them turn out to have been hired to kill them. also, it looks like a beholder would totally decimate this group, when they get to that level. maybe mind controlled innocents, again this might be difficult if theyre evil aligned (but still workable. while in town they are constantly attacked, at some point the gaurds may stop buying the "they attacked us!" line, especially after a detect evil).

and then theres always the good ol fashioned its-bigger-than-us critter. just because its the CR that it says in the book, doesnt mean thats how you need to distribute exp and treasure, especially if its something they are exceptionally strong against (maybe a radiant servant of pelor against a horde of undead) and remember, your the DM, you could choose to say "you level up when i say so, remind me if it seems like way too long"

[Zim]

The party has some blind spots to exploit, I'm sure. They might do well with hordes of weak opponents or one single BBEG if they're all in an open, flat area. Add flight, hit and run tactics and terrain features to the battle and they will find the encounters more difficult.

If you're looking for a way to bring them down a notch, try a fell-draining sound burst or two.

[Draz74]

By the way, in a recent playtest I discovered () that one monster that's harder than it should be at CR 8 is the Gorgon. You could throw one of those at this party and see how well they hold up to overpowered save-or-lose abilities.

[Frosty]

Do Gorgon SoDs require Fort saves? If so most of the group should be fine.