Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

[Estelindis]

The hell are you talking about? Ansom wasn't pretentious at all in the last strip.

"We will conquer the whole world" isn't pretentious...?

EDIT: Ninja'd!

[ishnar]

What strip were you reading?

The one he quoted?

[ishnar]

Wanda driven by emotion? Nope. Maybe in her aims, not in her means.

The question is what would STANLEY do when he gets back and sees Wanda with the pliers. Don't forget that every fight has two parties, and only one of the parties needs to be willing.

[Axl_Rose]

Originally Posted by Ansom
Here I stand, as proof of a higher expression.
...
I shall be your captain now.
We will bring about a new Titanic order.
We will conquer the whole world.

What strip were you reading?

Do you know what pretentious even means?

"Here I stand as proof of..." = You could said self-centred, egotistical, but that's not the same as pretentious
"I shall be your captain now" = Presumptuous, not pretentious
Taking over the world = ambitious, not pretentious.

To be pretentious involves masquerading as though you know much about a subject when you in fact do not. Akin to vagrantly flaunting vocabulary which the user does not understand. Ie. think Pretentious, pretending, etc.

Given the fact that Hamster is apparently the most able strategic mind having bested the Royal Coalition + the fact that Ansom is friggin badass to the point of also beating the odds, it's not that far a stretch that they could take over the world. The only reason why they wouldn't would be plot-driven reasons, which you can't blame Ansom for being unable to anticipate.

So no, believing he can take over the world under the Hamster is not being pretentious. It's not even close.

You could have said "over-confident" or "over-zealous" but not pretentious.

[Guppy]

And then there's this new Ansom. Ignoring for a moment the implications of improved croakamancy... he's back and suddenly now he's voicing the virtues of Parson? It's probable that it's part of the game itself, even ideas seem to be subject to the rules. And if he did have a change of heart based purely on reexamining his beliefs, could we even tell?

Hmm... looking back at the question of free will in Erfworld, this is kind of interesting. While the Grand Abbie Janice may regard Parson as a potential savior and liberator, it's possible that Wanda now commands the most insidious form of slavery yet, going far beyond the shackles of Natural Thinkamancy.

[Khyron]

Awesome : True resurrection.

Not Awesome : It happened too late to save Bogroll :(

[the_tick_rules]

Holy freakin crap. Did I call that or what? If Wanda and Stanley join forces it's game over. But then again, is anyone smelling a potential coup. Wanda coudl croak stanley and have him ber her servant now.

[Spot]

"We will conquer the whole world" isn't pretentious...?

EDIT: Ninja'd!

Technically... TECHNICALLY... it's not pretentious.

You see, when you are killed in combat while leading the largest coalition the world has ever seen, while trying to wipe a tiny faction from the world, and then they raise you from the dead to be thier new new Croak Knight/Paladin subcommander to the Perfect Warlord, destined and fortold by prophecy to fullfill the original plan of the Titans who created the world...

**takes a deep breath**

...and then you see the entire defeated and dead grand coalition army that you gathered from the far ends of the earth to gather in this one spot to crush Stanley, raised in its entirety and returned to prefect working order, by an underling of Stanley's using the Titan-spawned weapon that you died bringing to her fingertips for this very same purpose...

**takes a second really deep breath**

...then merely stating the fact that you will be spending the next few years conquering the entire world, is not pretentious.

Technically, it's just an honest assesment of furture events.

[Glome]

Anyone appreciate the irony that Ansom's plan to conquer the world is far more ambitious then what Stanley was trying to do, which was just to control all the Arkentools? In fact, new Ansom would have to be destroyed even moreso than Stanley by old Ansom's reasoning.

So how do you think Vinnie and Jillian are going to react to new Ansom's plan to conquer the world?

[Dark Matter]

Sometime to keep in mind is that Stanly's army and empire used to be much larger and stronger than even what it is now. They're a level 0 city against multiple other cities.

They didn't get the entire Royal Army back. Probably many were fried beyond repair, others were already uncroked once before they were killed again, and still others were killed in other hexes. Wanda has been shown to be *far* less good at bringing back multiple people than one at a time.

Further, now that they have the pliers... I suspect all the other cities will combine (again), except perhaps this time they'll be more serious about it. Vinny's group alone has a dozen or so warlords that they could commit. Charley might not have to be paid, or he might even fund this one.

[Aquillion]

Do you know what pretentious even means?

"Here I stand as proof of..." = You could said self-centred, egotistical, but that's not the same as pretentious
"I shall be your captain now" = Presumptuous, not pretentious
Taking over the world = ambitious, not pretentious.

To be pretentious involves masquerading as though you know much about a subject when you in fact do not. Akin to vagrantly flaunting vocabulary which the user does not understand. Ie. think Pretentious, pretending, etc.

You are wrong. (And I will leave out the obvious dig at you for, uh, flagrantly flaunting vocabulary which you don't understand.)

From here:

1: characterized by pretension: as a: making usually unjustified or excessive claims (as of value or standing) <the pretentious fraud who assumes a love of culture that is alien to him — Richard Watts> b: expressive of affected, unwarranted, or exaggerated importance, worth, or stature <pretentious language> <pretentious houses>

Or here:

1. Claiming or demanding a position of distinction or merit, especially when unjustified.
2. Making or marked by an extravagant outward show; ostentatious. See synonyms at showy.

Ansom is exaggerating his own importance by claiming to stand as a 'proof of a higher expression'; the only thing he's proof of is that Parson was better at backstabbing and Wanda happened to qualify for the artifact, but to him, it must be something big, epic, and grand. That's pretension.

[kagato23]

Sometime to keep in mind is that Stanly's army and empire used to be much larger and stronger than even what it is now. They're a level 0 city against multiple other cities.

They didn't get the entire Royal Army back. Probably many were fried beyond repair, others were already uncroked once before they were killed again, and still others were killed in other hexes. Wanda has been shown to be *far* less good at bringing back multiple people than one at a time.

Further, now that they have the pliers... I suspect all the other cities will combine (again), except perhaps this time they'll be more serious about it. Vinny's group alone has a dozen or so warlords that they could commit. Charley might not have to be paid, or he might even fund this one.

Not necessarily.

Remember, he didn't win, he KILLED EVERYBODY. That's going to give anybody pause before they take a crack at him. 0% survival on some sort of "dirtamancy trap" that, for all they know, he can do again at anytime. (and effectively he can, all the surviving pieces are in place). They don't know the cost on his own city because nobody is htere to survey the damage. And if they do go check, they'll see he's got at least a few stacks, a captured warlord, and probably the beginnings of refortification thanks to very wealthy side. Assuming the foolamancer doesn't just make them see something different.

Charlie brought enough forces to take down gobwin knob, but I'm guessing that was a big ass chunk of his forces. I doubt he can honor any other commitments he has going on and focus on GK, and I'm guessing he's going to need to restock, which means he has to look at other commitments right now.

A lot of the coalition wanted to pull out. This will not dissuade them. Translvito doesn't seem like it cares that much, Vinnie asside.

If jillian is able to become queen, she might well want to start a campaign, but she won't find many friends (she's not good at that in the best of circumstances).

And if nothing else, most people won't have enough move to get there unless over several turns. That gives people time.

Oh, eventually GK will be a focus again, but by that time, they will be a real threat. And it might well be too late.

[DigoDragon]

*thumbs up* I like where this is going. Let's all go beat up Charlescomm :D

[PNG_pyro]

Wow. Just...wow.

I now have no idea where this story could possibly go. The gamebreaking is reaching ridiculous proportions, and so I'm thinking "time for another book"...but on the other hand, so many personal plots are still un-tied-up. Really, I have no idea.

Just two thoughts to throw in here. I like Ansom, before and after his uncroaking.

Also, if units can only be uncroaked once, then the whole contingent of uncroaked they were using for dance-fighting is gone. Which isn't much compared to the entire RCC, but it's still something to consider.

[Zeku]

You know, it's possible for someone to just be really convinced that they are a big deal. That isn't (I forgot the word we were talking about?) its merely self-delusion. Maybe he really is a big deal?

Either way, Ansom just strikes me as a guy who gets very serious about whatever is in front of him, and that strong belief ends up looking pretty stupid once it's clearly in perspective. I feel like I share this characteristic with him.

It's rooted in a deep cynicism of everything you're surrounded by. Ansom believes as he does (whatever that happens to be at the moment) because he doesn't really trust the truth that is around him. He assumes it was manufactured by someone that didn't know what they were doing, and that there is some deeper truth to be found, one in which he plays an important part. The fact that he's wrong is the sad flaw in his character.

[Spot]

You know, it's possible for someone to just be really convinced that they are a big deal. That isn't (I forgot the word we were talking about?) its merely self-delusion. Maybe he really is a big deal?

Either way, Ansom just strikes me as a guy who gets very serious about whatever is in front of him, and that strong belief ends up looking pretty stupid once it's clearly in perspective. I feel like I share this characteristic with him.

It's rooted in a deep cynicism of everything you're surrounded by. Ansom believes as he does (whatever that happens to be at the moment) because he doesn't really trust the truth that is around him. He assumes it was manufactured by someone that didn't know what they were doing, and that there is some deeper truth to be found, one in which he plays an important part. The fact that he's wrong is the sad flaw in his character.

(1) Ansom isn't wrong in assuming that he plays an important role.

(2) Getting born on a farm somewhere, looking up on the stars and dreaming of someday being an astronaut, and then immediatelly dismissing that dream as unrealistic and stupid, because you're destined to be a farmer your entire life just like your pa and grandpa, and so you go on to live 80 years on the same farm, farming the whole time...

...that would have been a *really* *really* boring version of the movie "The Right Stuff".

[Joreal_Conners]

Somewhere in Erfworld, Greg Graffin, Brett Gurewitz, Greg Hetson, Brian Baker, Jay Bentley, and Brooks Wackerman just spawned in to give that army dance fight bonuses.

[Killer Angel]

So how do you think Vinnie and Jillian are going to react to new Ansom's plan to conquer the world?

I don't think that conquering the world, is a new concept in a war-based world. Still, the reaction of Vinnie and Jillian will be very strong, seeing what have been done to their firiend / beloved.
I think they will give a new dimension to the word "hate".... but maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe, the real question is: how will Stanley react to this? You knows, each one has his own idea on the reasons to conquer the world...

[Axl_Rose]

You are wrong. (And I will leave out the obvious dig at you for, uh, flagrantly flaunting vocabulary which you don't understand.)

From here:

Or here:
Ansom is exaggerating his own importance by claiming to stand as a 'proof of a higher expression'; the only thing he's proof of is that Parson was better at backstabbing and Wanda happened to qualify for the artifact, but to him, it must be something big, epic, and grand. That's pretension.

Mate, "exaggerating one's own importance" is nowhere near what being pretentious means. I'm glad you can quote from a dictionary site, but it appears proper interpretation has eluded you.

the 1st definition:

characterized by pretension: as a: making usually unjustified or excessive claims (as of value or standing) <the pretentious fraud who assumes a love of culture that is alien to him

is exactly what I said in my last post. In the example from said dictionary site, 'Richard' is pretending to know much about a culture that is alien to him. Merely being extravagant (As is the case with Ansom) is not the same at all.

Second definition

1. Claiming or demanding a position of distinction or merit, especially when unjustified.
2. Making or marked by an extravagant outward show; ostentatious.

is meant in the context of being a pretender.

Pretentious =/= overzealous, arrogant, and egocentric, although those who are pretentious often embody those traits.

[TamLin]

Well if the pliers make the decrypted character loyal to Stanley's side, and considering that one of Bogroll's traits was his unquestioned loyalty, I don't see how the pliers would change him aside from taking away his upkeep.

Well, it's still not completely certain that the pliers make decryptified units loyal, although it seems like a reasonable assumption. But, for example, let's say Wanda brings back Bogroll and at first Parson is happy/relieved, but he notices Bogroll acting strange and over time comes to the conclusion that he is not really "alive" at all, just animate and going through the motions. Or perhaps Wanda will force him to do something objectionable against his will, leaving Parson guilt-ridden. Or maybe it'll turn out that none of these are really the original people at all and are actually horrible, horrible demons inhabiting their bodies and memories (okay, probably not, but it's just a hypothetical example). There are almost certainly consequences to this process that are not immediately obvious.

[Killer Angel]

I was wandering if this is worth a new thread... well, maybe not.

Ansom is a completely new type of uncroaked unit. He has intelligence, memories, he can speak, reasoning... he's practically alive.
He's also a fanatic religious (not strange at all: he was a zelot 'bout royalty in life, now that he's been resurrected uncroaked by an holy artifact, i don't expect any less from him).
But this can have some consequences, all new for erfworld.
NOW, he's loyal to Parson (he's the warlord and he spoke the Titans' truth), but probably he's loyal also to Wanda (the Bearer of the Sacred Arkenpliers) and to Stanley (leader of GK and bearer of another arkentool).

I'm not sure if a unit like Ansom will be forced to "loyalty", if his commander will not pursue the Holy crusade for a new Titanic world order.

[ZiggyGuy]

.. zero... upkeep.

That's ALL I can think of right now. O.o;;

[Spot]

I was wandering if this is worth a new thread... well, maybe not.

Ansom is a completely new type of uncroaked unit. He has intelligence, memories, he can speak, reasoning... he's practically alive.
He's also a fanatic religious (not strange at all: he was a zelot 'bout royalty in life, now that he's been resurrected uncroaked by an holy artifact, i don't expect any less from him).
But this can have some consequences, all new for erfworld.
NOW, he's loyal to Parson (he's the warlord and he spoke the Titans' truth), but probably he's loyal also to Wanda (the Bearer of the Sacred Arkenpliers) and to Stanley (leader of GK and bearer of another arkentool).

I'm not sure if a unit like Ansom will be forced to "loyalty", if his commander will not pursue the Holy crusade for a new Titanic world order.

I suspect that Ansom will see it as his duty to convince Parson to be enthusiastic about global conquest and to make Parson see "the truth" of the new Holy Crusade.

Also, it'll be interesting to see how Jillian reacts to the news of Ansom's decrypting, and it'll be even more interesting to see (new) Ansom's reaction to Jillian.

Of course, we still, first, have to see Jillian's reaction to finding out that FAQ wasn't conquered like she thought it was.

[TamLin]

I didn't really interpret Ansom's zeal as a dramatic shift in his character. His entire royalty kick while alive was founded on religious principle, seems now that the focus has shifted to something new but the drive is the same.

[teratorn]

I'm not sure if a unit like Ansom will be forced to "loyalty", if his commander will not pursue the Holy crusade for a new Titanic world order.

Curse the people who brought the Duncan Idaho thing. Your post made me think about the legions of Fremen slaughtering around the universe in the name of Paul Muad'Dib. Ansom even has blue-in-blue eyes.

Oh, and did Ansom shave his chest hair? He still had it in 143...

[Killer Angel]

I suspect that Ansom will see it as his duty to convince Parson to be enthusiastic about global conquest and to make Parson see "the truth" of the new Holy Crusade.

Also, it'll be interesting to see how Jillian reacts to the news of Ansom's decrypting, and it'll be even more interesting to see (new) Ansom's reaction to Jillian.
.

I've no doubt that Ansom will try to convince Parson... but i don't see Parson is going to appreciate the whole idea.
He was intrigued by the fight against overhelming odds, but he's not the "aggressive" type. He can be the Perfect Warlord, but he has moral dilemmas.
Sadly, he has no great choices... he had to obey Stanley's orders; now, the thing is: what Stanley is going to do?

And about Jillian, probably she will see this as an abomination, and she will hate Wanda very strongly.

[Killer Angel]

Curse the people who brought the Duncan Idaho thing. Your post made me think about the legions of Fremen slaughtering around the universe in the name of Paul Muad'Dib. Ansom even has blue-in-blue eyes.

jihad!

Ah, Ansom and Wanda, what a gracious couple, aren't they? They seems natural born conquerers of the world!

[Yodimus]

More concisely, Emotion trumps reason. No matter how many reasons there are for people to work together, greed, hate, envy, or anger can have a greater influence on the results than any potential good.

True perhaps, but in Wanda's case, her brilliance is in her underhanded manipulations, right? So yeah, Stanley might be retarded and demand the pliers, but Wanda will schmooze on over and be all like, "Of course Lord Tool, they're all your's. Of course, I'm also your's, and with my bonuses and etc as Uber croakamancer, I'll be able to rez units much more efficiently, yes?" and so on and so forth. I foresee nothing getting to out of hand, no matter how ungrateful the Tool will be (and I strongly suspect he will be QUITE ungrateful, to Parson's annoyance, no doubt)



Anyway, unless some massive, gigantic turn of the tables happens prior to the end of this Book, I've got no reason to assume Parson, Wanda, Ansom and Stanley won't be rulers of all of Erfworld by the start of Book 2. Why mess about with all the technicalities when we already know what's going to happen? If Parson can win when he's given nothing, what do you think he could do when given everything??

But I suspect we'll see pretty soon. Maybe somewhere between five-to-ten pages to go, I'm guessing.

[BLANDCorporatio]

I'll weigh in on "Stanley's uberpowerful- or not" debate.

Ever since the volcanic explosion, my claim was Stanley could rule the world like a racket. "Nice cities you got there, it would be a shame if something happened to them, dig?"

The latest strips do nothing to change my mind. They've got builders (the golems), the casters (one of which is a Foolamancer), schmuckers to burn, dwagons pop anyway, two attuned Arkentools, one of which is perfect for using the enemy's strength against them, not to mention an army of rezzed units. My initial argument was psychology, but there's no need for subtelty now, in brute force terms Stanley's side is strong.

The strongest side? Maybe ... not at the moment. We don't know how big Erfworld is, and what 30000 units (estimated size of the initial RCC army) means. In some games, that is a lot. In others, a drop in an ocean. True.

But, think in perspective. They've got a world reeling from the shock of unexpected defeat, a fearsome reputation, the ability to hit-and-run with relative impunity, a Perfect Warlord with experience at these kinds of strikes, and the ability to enlarge their army with every success.

If they are not the strongest side right now, it will be very easy for them to become so.

That's why I say the game is already broken, and why Stanley's side no longer needs, in story-logic terms, the Perfect Warlord. That's why I keep expecting a split to come up eventually.

HOW that split occurs (who will betray whom, or who will grow jealous of what etc) is of no concern to this argument, and I expect to be surprised as to what that mechanism will turn out to be.

Anyway, unless some massive, gigantic turn of the tables happens prior to the end of this Book, I've got no reason to assume Parson, Wanda, Ansom and Stanley won't be rulers of all of Erfworld by the start of Book 2. Why mess about with all the technicalities when we already know what's going to happen? If Parson can win when he's given nothing, what do you think he could do when given everything??

But I suspect we'll see pretty soon. Maybe somewhere between five-to-ten pages to go, I'm guessing.

Exactly, this is my impression of what the state of the world/game would lead to right now. It just, for some reason, doesn't ring well that Book 2 will start with Erfworld united under Stanley (well, we know Wanda is the real power behind the throne, but let's humour the Tool ... and Wanda).

Maybe I am expecting the Protagonist (Parson Gotti) to be kept the Protagonist, and therefore face unfair odds to keep it interesting, maybe it would be the ... disappointment ... of not seeing how one can go Alexander the Great on Erfworld.

Unless ... we are about to learn, in Book 2, that world peace too is deconstructible. And it does not look at all pretty on the inside. So, we would head for a moral of the "natural order == best order" kind of thing (which I seriously doubt that Rob is leading us to, that think is called the naturalistic fallacy).

[Killer Angel]

If they are not the strongest side right now, it will be very easy for them to become so.

That's why I say the game is already broken, and why Stanley's side no longer needs, in story-logic terms, the Perfect Warlord. That's why I keep expecting a split to come up eventually.

Given the fact that Stanley considered Parson a waste of resources, and Parson's huge upkeep cost (we still don't know if it's diminished after the Stupid Meal tools), he could simply dismiss Parson, 'cause he's a supreme leader and his side owns 2 arkentools.
So, we'll have a barbarian Parson, free to ally with anyother side, against the unstoppable Titanic Holy Crusade.

Well, i don't know if it's really a possible scenario, but still...