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  1. - Top - End - #241
    Magnificent Boop in the Playground
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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    Quote Originally Posted by Welf von Ehrwal View Post
    We don't know if Wanda is royal, noble or commoner.
    She's referred to as "Lady" or "Lady Firebaugh" a few times. However, that could just be a title bestowed by Stanley, and thus meaningless to anyone else who takes nobility and royalty seriously.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilkrazy View Post
    The game structure does not necessarily allow an assassination as we would understand it from the real world.
    A scout-like assassin should be possible, probably even with some natural foolamancy capabilities (so it can stay hidden and wait for a few turns before it
    strikes).

    The trouble is the turn structure. If GK's turn didn't start at dawn they'd know there's an enemy unit in the battle zone. Same thing if the day didn't end after GK's turn. But probably there are special rules for that (including spies and the like).
    Avatar: ruthless Parson (Erfworld).

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    I don't see them conquering the world, not immediately. Parson is going to be careful not to get another coallition on his tail, especially when he actually has something to lose. Charlie is going to stand in his way in a big way, he's smart, has highly powerful units, and will consider Parson to be a powerful rival. I could see book 2 being about Stanley et al. building an empire, and turning GK into a powerful defensive place again. Right now they're just to weak (yes they have a large standing army, extremely powerful elite units (casters/warlords)), but they have no defense, and they don't seem to have any seige. Stanley et al. are back on their feet, not a threat to the world just yet.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    I know one thing: if Wanda wants to get rid of Stanley, she'll gut him in his sleep or use another thinkamancy spell on him--if the latter means that she needs to kill Maggie beforehand, she will.

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowdemon_lord View Post
    I don't see them conquering the world, not immediately. Parson is going to be careful not to get another coallition on his tail, especially when he actually has something to lose.
    Those are an overlord's decisions, not a chief warlord's.
    Quo vadis?

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    Quote Originally Posted by teratorn View Post
    A scout-like assassin should be possible, probably even with some natural foolamancy capabilities (so it can stay hidden and wait for a few turns before it
    strikes).

    The trouble is the turn structure. If GK's turn didn't start at dawn they'd know there's an enemy unit in the battle zone. Same thing if the day didn't end after GK's turn. But probably there are special rules for that (including spies and the like).
    Actually... I'm pretty sure the real problem with an assassination attempt would be that the rules for attacking a city. They would have to
    a) kill all the units patroling the walls, and not get noticed...
    b) kill all the dwagons with out Stanley noticing his pets dying...
    c) scoure the tunnels and find every unit before someone notices...
    So no a scout like assassin would be hard difficult.

    The inate city defense would have to be bypassed and I can think of two methods of doing that...

    Portal: Its possible they can use the portal, but somehow I doubt that would be easy. And it would risk handing casters to the enemy, and if Stanley has a heir it would almost certainly hand the plaid tribe the casters. (Gobwins didn't know if the plaids had a heir or not.)
    Capture: A Jillian like assassin would be possible, but it involves getting captured, but that only happens to valuable units; again you risk handing a powerful unit to the enemy. And you would have to break out, and hope they don't start with a mind control spell.
    My deaths to wolves (or other evil night killers)
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    I think Lamech will make a great Sephiroth.
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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    Quote Originally Posted by Lamech View Post
    Actually... I'm pretty sure the real problem with an assassination attempt would be that the rules for attacking a city.
    *scratches head* As these rules stand, yes. Thing is, odd exceptions have a tendency to pop up at times. For example, initially Parson learned that only flying units may attack other flying units in forest hexes, then later he discovered that forest-capable units may attack flying units in forest hexes as well. It is at least possible to postulate an assassination unit that has a chance of infiltrating an enemy city, with likelihood of success increasing with assassin level and decreasing with city defense level and number/type of defenders. Such an assassin could have different abilities, ranging from 1) espionage (learning number and type of defenders, lower chance of capture), 2) sabotage (damaging siege/delaying what is in the production queue, somewhat higher chance of capture), 3) killing valuable target of opportunity (kill random caster or Warlord, still higher chance of capture), 4) killing specific target (Chief Warlord, Overlord/Ruler, very high chance of capture).

    Also, I can think of another exception within all the rules we know. It goes as follows:

    1) enter Alliance with target city/faction
    2) send diplomat into city to negotiate
    3) break Alliance and 'diplomat' attacks and kills desired victim.

    Obviously, this method would not do much for the reputation of the Overlord or Ruler employing it, and the diplomat in question had better be expendable.
    My Avatar is Vinnie Doombats from the Erfworld comic written by Rob Balder and illustrated by Jamie Noguchi.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    Exceptions... that's absolutely a possibility.

    We can't forget, either, that Erf is a game-like world, not just a game. The resurrection of a volcano was possibly never part of the original rules, for example.
    Quo vadis?

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    A juicy assassination target might sometimes visit the Airspace or Outer Wall zone, if you can lie in wait there. It seemed like GK's Outer Wall zone included the bulk of the city, actually. And the city buildings might make it easier to remain hidden.

    Rulers might have to choose between direct supervision and safety. I wouldn't be surprised if casters typically remained cloistered in the Garrison.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    Parson's next experiment in weaponizing any sort of caster: a foolamancer ninja assassin.
    Quo vadis?

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    The authors used the past few strips to relay a lot of rules information which was previously unknown and caused a lot of speculation.


    Dwagons can be popped by a city;
    Barbarians go first in turn order;
    Enemy unit level is visible;
    Enemy unit Warlord status is visible;
    Decay status is visible;
    Upkeep cost is visible;

    I may have missed a few others.

    It might be safe to assume that you see the same amount of detail regarding enemy units as you do your own. We have on a couple of occasions seen units call out orders such as "Target that caster" or "Target the Warlord." Casters might be obvious, especially if they are tunneling in riding on rock golems and reading scrolls. But only Ansom has seen Parson, and the weiner-rammer riding warlord ordered his troops to "target the warlord" referring to Parson. I think it's safe to assume that enemy units looking at Parson see that he is a Warlord, despite his reported lack of visible stats. Certainly no one looking at Parson sees him as a caster, or he wouldn't have faced so much hostility in the MK.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyJimBoBob View Post
    Enemy unit level is visible;
    Enemy unit Warlord status is visible;
    Enemy? Ansom sounds like an enthusiastic convert, not an enemy.

    Decay status is visible;
    Upkeep cost is visible;
    Hmmm... upkeep cost certainly didn't appear in the previous examples of stat displays as seen through Parson's glasses. OTOH, these are the sort of things that might show up as a "Special" listing.

    We have on a couple of occasions seen units call out orders such as "Target that caster" or "Target the Warlord." Casters might be obvious, especially if they are tunneling in riding on rock golems and reading scrolls. But only Ansom has seen Parson, and the weiner-rammer riding warlord ordered his troops to "target the warlord" referring to Parson. I think it's safe to assume that enemy units looking at Parson see that he is a Warlord, despite his reported lack of visible stats.
    My guess is that the FoxMUD intruder didn't really have time to react to Parson's lack of visible stats, and just assumed that the big guy with the big sword was the warlord.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyJimBoBob View Post
    Dwagons can be popped by a city;
    Barbarians go first in turn order;
    Enemy unit level is visible;
    Enemy unit Warlord status is visible;
    Decay status is visible;
    Upkeep cost is visible
    Many answers, but many many more questions. Some of your answers seem to be flawed, too.

    • Dragons can be popped by GK, but is that because of Stanley's attunement to the hammer? Maybe any city can pop dwagons, but they would pop as barbarians (and thus auto-attack). Can any other cities pop dwagons? Maybe only Stanly's can. Maybe only GK (as Stanley's capital) can.
    • Barbarians go before GK, but not necessarily before everyone else (though that would make sense from a game-mechanic perspective). What happens if there are multiple Barbarian factions? In other words, what if Gk had fallen and then Jillian was hunting Stanley? Who would go first?
    • Wanda may have learned of Ansom's level in other ways than the typical stat display. Perhaps that information was available to the eyemancer link. Perhaps Jillian mentioned it during an 'interrogation'. Same thing with warlord status, though I think that it was pretty obvious that Ansom was Jetsone's chief warlord (he didn't exactly keep it secret). If he is a chief warlord he must be a warlord.
    • Decay status may only be observable by a croakamancer, maybe even only the one that created the uncroaked. Maybe Wanda knows because she is attuned to the 'pliers.
    • Perhaps Wanda knows about Ansom's lack of upkeep from some other source of info. Perhaps no uncroaked have upkeep costs (just decay rates). Perhaps it is information imparted to her as a result of her attunement with the 'pliers.


    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    Enemy? Ansom sounds like an enthusiastic convert, not an enemy.
    I think the point was that they knew Ansom was still a Lvl 10 warlord, so they had to know he was a Lvl 10 warlord prior to croaking & decrypting.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    Hmmm... upkeep cost certainly didn't appear in the previous examples of stat displays as seen through Parson's glasses. OTOH, these are the sort of things that might show up as a "Special" listing.
    See my last point in the above list.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    My guess is that the FoxMUD intruder didn't really have time to react to Parson's lack of visible stats, and just assumed that the big guy with the big sword was the warlord.
    Or Ansom described the enemy Chief Warlord to his war council. Kind of a good idea, tactically. That way he can give an order to target the Parson if the opportunity becomes available without having to describe him on the spot.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    Undead Ansom's so much fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cpt. Democracy View Post
    There's a worse possibility...

    Think about it. Someone is reanimated as a new, uberpowerful type of undeadcroaked; says they now stand as proof of a higher expression; and decides to take over the world. Come on, we know what that means:

    Erfworld is about to have one of those "army of the undead out to kill everyone" scenarios.
    An unstoppable Undead Horde with Religion if Ansom's views catch on.

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    She's referred to as "Lady" or "Lady Firebaugh" a few times. However, that could just be a title bestowed by Stanley, and thus meaningless to anyone else who takes nobility and royalty seriously.
    He uses her actual name though.
    Last edited by Whispri; 2009-05-07 at 11:48 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #254

    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    Many answers, but many many more questions. Some of your answers seem to be flawed, too.
    Fully agreed on the many more questions... And I'm sure my speculations can't be all correct, but the list of facts seems to be accurate, based on the strips.
    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin
    Decay status may only be observable by a croakamancer, maybe even only the one that created the uncroaked. Maybe Wanda knows because she is attuned to the 'pliers.

    Perhaps Wanda knows about Ansom's lack of upkeep from some other source of info. Perhaps no uncroaked have upkeep costs (just decay rates). Perhaps it is information imparted to her as a result of her attunement with the 'pliers.
    It is Parson who first states that Newsom has zero upkeep. He does say it as a question, but people do that all the time when presented with something which they can see is different than they expected. But regardless, he says it while looking at Newsom through his 3D glasses, so it seems clear that he is observing Newsom's stats which included a lack of upkeep cost. Wanda affirms that he is correct on the point of no upkeep, also while looking at Newsom.
    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin
    I think the point was that they knew Ansom was still a Lvl 10 warlord, so they had to know he was a Lvl 10 warlord prior to croaking & decrypting.
    Indeed.
    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin
    Or Ansom described the enemy Chief Warlord to his war council. Kind of a good idea, tactically. That way he can give an order to target the Parson if the opportunity becomes available without having to describe him on the spot.
    That would require that the weiner-rammer rider had also described Parson to all of his troops. Which while possible, stretches belief. There comes a time when it is impractical to expect all of your troops to recognize one person amongst a few thousand enemies. In our world, prior to the information super-age we are now in, a soldier could recognize an enemy general by the simple fact that he had on a fancy uniform with plenty of braid and medals, even if he had never seen a French Marshal before. He wouldn't know that it was Francois Lefebvre (for example), but he'd still be able to figure that it was an officer, and probably a high ranking one. Parson doesn't wear a uniform.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyJimBoBob View Post
    Parson doesn't wear a uniform.
    One could argue that the twoll decoy incident provided everyone in the courtyard and beyond with an eyeful as to what armour the chief warlord of GK was wearing, as he supposedly stood on the balcony to surrender, then took a dive on Parson, then fought the nearby troops until finally getting killed with fire. Uniform and a rough sketch of appearance too.
    Last edited by BLANDCorporatio; 2009-05-07 at 02:48 PM.
    The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyJimBoBob View Post
    It is Parson who first states that Newsom has zero upkeep. He does say it as a question, but people do that all the time when presented with something which they can see is different than they expected.
    Wanda may have informed Parson previously that uncroaked do not have an upkeep cost, or even specifically that Decrypted Ansom does not have one. In either case, it would make sense for Parson to ask for confirmation.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyJimBoBob View Post
    But regardless, he says it while looking at Newsom through his 3D glasses, so it seems clear that he is observing Newsom's stats which included a lack of upkeep cost. Wanda affirms that he is correct on the point of no upkeep, also while looking at Newsom.
    It is certainly clear that he is checking out Decrypted Ansom's stats, but it is not clear in any way that upkeep cost is one of those stats.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyJimBoBob View Post
    That would require that the weiner-rammer rider had also described Parson to all of his troops. Which while possible, stretches belief. There comes a time when it is impractical to expect all of your troops to recognize one person amongst a few thousand enemies. <snip> Parson doesn't wear a uniform.
    "A pink twoll wearing white armor with a hamster on it" isn't a tough description to pass on. Further, the weiner-rammer warlord may not have needed to pass on the description. It seems likely that natural thinkamancy would allow a warlord to issue orders more on intent than phrasing. Either that or all units have to have full comprehension of Language, even if they can't speak a word of it. Consider the doombats. Do we ever see them being given orders verbally?

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    Wanda may have informed Parson previously that uncroaked do not have an upkeep cost, or even specifically that Decrypted Ansom does not have one. In either case, it would make sense for Parson to ask for confirmation.
    [...]
    It is certainly clear that he is checking out Decrypted Ansom's stats, but it is not clear in any way that upkeep cost is one of those stats.
    Ok, ok. Getting people to agree on the Internet is worse than herding cats. I see Parson looking at Newsom, then say "No upkeep?" in the same way that you might say "Chocolate cake?" if you were looking at what was obviously a chocolate cake but you were expecting to see a yellow cake. Even though I think the authors set out to reveal more of the rules with these past several strips, they clearly didn't account for the level of certainty required by some people before they can accept something for what it is.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyJimBoBob View Post
    Even though I think the authors set out to reveal more of the rules with these past several strips, they clearly didn't account for the level of certainty required by some people before they can accept something for what it is.
    May I mention a paper on mathematical humour I read once? One of the jokes ran like this-

    An engineer, a physicist and a mathematician were on a train on their first trip through Scotland. At some time, looking out the window, they see the first animal they encountered on that trip: one black sheep all alone in the field.

    "A-ha," says the engineer, "so in Scotland all sheep are black."

    "That's not right," says the physicist, "but we do know that in Scotland there's at least one black sheep."

    "That is still wrong" says the mathematician, "but we know that in Scotland there is at least one sheep, at least one half of which is black."






    Wow what a great audience.
    Last edited by BLANDCorporatio; 2009-05-07 at 04:12 PM.
    The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    Quote Originally Posted by BLANDCorporatio View Post
    May I mention a paper on mathematical humour I read once? One of the jokes ran like this-

    An engineer, a physicist and a mathematician were on a train on their first trip through Scotland. At some time, looking out the window, they see the first animal they encountered on that trip: one black sheep all alone in the field.

    "A-ha," says the engineer, "so in Scotland all sheep are black."

    "That's not right," says the physicist, "but we do know that in Scotland there's at least one black sheep."

    "That is still wrong" says the mathematician, "but we know that in Scotland there is at least one sheep, at least one half of which is black."






    Wow what a great audience.
    See, I laughed at that joke. Of course, I also feel like there could be another response by a philosopher*, but the length would kill the joke. That and no one would get it.

    * "No no no," said the philosopher. "In Scotland we were appeared to black sheeply."

    I told you no one would get it ... ... ...

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post
    See, I laughed at that joke. Of course, I also feel like there could be another response by a philosopher*, but the length would kill the joke. That and no one would get it.

    * "No no no," said the philosopher. "In Scotland we were appeared to black sheeply."

    I told you no one would get it ... ... ...
    Uhh ... *scratches head*

    ... hmmm ...

    Spoiler
    Show
    there is no sheep.
    The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    I want to read that paper. Can you tell me more about it?

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    She's referred to as "Lady" or "Lady Firebaugh" a few times. However, that could just be a title bestowed by Stanley, and thus meaningless to anyone else who takes nobility and royalty seriously.
    You do realize all titles are, at some point, betowed upon someone? I suggest reviewing the rise in title of Arthur Wellsley from having no title, not even in line because he had an older brother, to becoming Duke Wellington. Everybody took those titles very seriously.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyJimBoBob View Post
    That would require that the weiner-rammer rider had also described Parson to all of his troops. Which while possible, stretches belief. There comes a time when it is impractical to expect all of your troops to recognize one person amongst a few thousand enemies. In our world, prior to the information super-age we are now in, a soldier could recognize an enemy general by the simple fact that he had on a fancy uniform with plenty of braid and medals, even if he had never seen a French Marshal before. He wouldn't know that it was Francois Lefebvre (for example), but he'd still be able to figure that it was an officer, and probably a high ranking one. Parson doesn't wear a uniform.
    Actually, every one of the attackers would recognize Parson.

    They saw him come out to surrender to Ansom on top of a tall tower, visible from a wide distance, remember? Granted, it was really a Twoll under a veil, but that still lets everyone know what Parson looks like.

    Also, Parson's coat of arms might give it away. Often heraldry carries information like that that isn't obvious to people who don't know its details.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kreistor View Post
    You do realize all titles are, at some point, betowed upon someone? I suggest reviewing the rise in title of Arthur Wellsley from having no title, not even in line because he had an older brother, to becoming Duke Wellington. Everybody took those titles very seriously.
    This is Erfworld. As far as we've seen, you get a title (or, as old-Ansom would put it, a title that means something) by being popped as a royal or as a lesser noble, and they got their titles by being popped as a noble all the way back to (in theory) the original rulers appointed by the Titans.

    Stanley was given a title too, sort of, but people like Ansom would never acknowledge it. So it makes a difference whether Wanda's title is something that was granted to her, or something she popped with.
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2009-05-07 at 06:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    Quote Originally Posted by JenBurdoo View Post
    I want to read that paper. Can you tell me more about it?
    Yes. After a lot of searching- and I mean this, I thought I encountered this somewhere in the archives of Language Log- I found it eventually on wikipedia. Here's the link:

    http://www.ams.org/notices/200501/fea-dundes.pdf

    Warning: some mathematical ability is recommended to understand the jokes. For instance, you should be able to calculate what you get when you cross an elephant with a banana.
    Last edited by BLANDCorporatio; 2009-05-08 at 04:27 AM.
    The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    Quote Originally Posted by BLANDCorporatio View Post
    One could argue that the twoll decoy incident provided everyone in the courtyard and beyond with an eyeful as to what armour the chief warlord of GK was wearing, as he supposedly stood on the balcony to surrender, then took a dive on Parson, then fought the nearby troops until finally getting killed with fire. Uniform and a rough sketch of appearance too.
    While on the top of efdup, Pheau-Parson wasn't terribly visible to units in the courtyard. Just look at the perspective in the shots which show it. After Bogroll tackled Ansom he was again a twoll in apprearance, and that's how he would have looked once he reached the ground and was killed and burned. In fact, Bogroll and Parson look nearly identical standing next to one another. At any distance they would be very difficult to distinguish*. So I'm not sure I can buy into any theory that the entirety of the RCC were familiar with the appearance of the GK Chief Warlord.


    * This could be rendered moot if the "see unit stats" ability isn't diminished at all by distance.

    Quote Originally Posted by BLANDCorporatio View Post
    May I mention a paper on mathematical humour I read once? One of the jokes ran like this-
    Nice. :) That reminds me of a co-worker at a prior company. He was a statistical analyst, and not terribly customer oriented. He would provide figures of average disconnect numbers for our NAS servers in a meeting designed to allow the customer to beat us up over poor numbers and attempt to cajole us into constantly raising the bar. When he was asked why certain sites were below average he would often reply with something like "These sites are below average because half of the sites perform better than they do. That is what average means." I always had to stifle a chuckle at that.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyJimBoBob View Post
    That reminds me of a co-worker at a prior company. He was a statistical analyst, and not terribly customer oriented. He would provide figures of average disconnect numbers for our NAS servers in a meeting designed to allow the customer to beat us up over poor numbers and attempt to cajole us into constantly raising the bar. When he was asked why certain sites were below average he would often reply with something like "These sites are below average because half of the sites perform better than they do. That is what average means." I always had to stifle a chuckle at that.
    Technically, what he was describing is the median. It is possible to have all sites performing equally, and thus equal to the average, say ...

    ...

    I'll go now.
    The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.

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    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    Quote Originally Posted by BLANDCorporatio View Post
    It is possible to have all sites performing equally [...]
    You have never worked with three different networks of NAS servers spread across the country and served by every different LEC of every immaginable condition, have you*? It is a mathematical certainty that they can not perfom equally. :)

    I thought of another favorite quote, attribution unknown:

    'In theory, theory and practice are the same thing, but in practice, they are different.'


    *The absolute worst copper in the country is buried under New York and New Jersey. Those networks are so old that many rural networks far outperform those metropolis networks.

  28. - Top - End - #268
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BLANDCorporatio's Avatar

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    Mar 2009

    Default Re: Erfworld 158 - tBfGK 145

    That is one witty quote I will now commit to memory, thanks!
    The whole point of this is lost if you keep it a secret.

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