GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

[AgentPaper]

Reminder: Tomorrow is our next melee session. Looking forward to seeing you all there.

Also, sorry for my outburst and abrupt leave yesterday. I was rather upset by the unbalanced team-ups and my concerns about it being ignored, but that's no excuse for such a reaction. My apologies.

Hey, everyone's entitled to rage-quit every once in a while. 'bout time you used one of your chances.

[u-gotNOgame]

My sincerest apologies for being entirly absent this weekend from our sessions... It seems my friends have a thing for making last minute plans and then dragging me along.

More on topic; I think that balencing things a very hard on any map much less one like CfG. I'm sorry I wasn't there to make you odd so that such a calamity could not have taken place.

-UGNG

[Inhuman Bot]

As I sit here, being bored, with this inactive thread, I think I'll stick together a guide of Metastasis.

As well as DotA.

....No, I'm not just trolling you, Bane.

[742]

so; im bored, because im bored im on WC3, but there dont seem to be enough people on right now for that to help with my problem; i propose we fix this. does anyone else agree? good. so now you can get online to slaughter orcs* and its an act of charity. how can you possibly refuse that?
*or be killed by orcs

[nooblade]

I really, really, really, really, really want to play Warcraft 2. Even more than CfG!

But the single-player campaigns first. And before that, I have to actually get it.


If I'm not back within the month, you might have to find a new nooblade.

[Inhuman Bot]

It's time to get on and amuse me, all of you! Hurry up!

[Winterwind]

Reminder: Tomorrow is our next custom map session. I hope to see you all there.

[Winterwind]

And reminder: Tomorrow is our next melee session. Hope to crush see you there.

[Inhuman Bot]

Only one more week, and we can get WW to quad post.

...

Wait, damnit.

[AgentPaper]

For those who might be interested, me and Legoshrimp managed to get a working strategy for 4-player When Fel Orcs Go Insane. I've also extrapolated this strategy for an 8-player version, which is theoretically sound but untested. We ended up losing our final try (using the 4-player strat) because of a stupid mistake, (we all forgot that the starting burrow on the right hadn't been replaced) but except for that it had been going great.

I threw it up here, where I might post more simple strategies like that for various custom maps. In particular, it seems a guide to Legion TD Wars might be in order.

[nooblade]

FYI, about WFOGI, putting more than one burrower into a burrow does absolutely nothing. No increase in attackspeed for this custom game. Test it for yourself if you don't believe me.


Also, I spent like an hour with the world editor to make a quick-tweak to the deprotected CfG. It's changed a few skills around (15s CD to 25s CD and vice versa) to see how much of a buff/nerf that kind of thing is. I haven't nerfed Hellfire yet, I think I'll see if I can do that right now, actually, but Skill Coil has also been hit hard, probably too much. Also, I fixed the dagger item so it isn't using the most powerful stun at all times, added the peasant to Baron's castle, and blocked off all the above-ground spots that those sneaky Mages can teleport to.

I keep thinking that I probably shouldn't do this, that it's not polished or tested enough, and that my efforts are only going to be frustrated by it... but eh, CfG's already been released.

I think I'll re-protect it before it gets put on orochi- or something.

Anyway, metaphorical money for your thoughts?


Edit: Hellfire damage cut in half, Skill Coil fleeing reduced, Felguard hp and damage reduced... See how the Warlock is from there?

It's really annoying how the function for Hellfire was called "Avatar".

Edit2: This map protection thing reduces the map's size by more than a third!

Works for me, just fine, too.

Edit3: A bigger changelist, maybe some errors.
Again, this is all for nice symmetry that I like

Spoiler

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(slight buff)Warrior-Whirlwind is now 15CD and does 50xskill level damage over two seconds.
(slight nerf)Warrior-Mortal Strike is now 25CD and does more damage than before over 15 seconds.
(slight buff)Druid-Entangling Roots is now 15CD and lasts 3 seconds rather than 5
(moderate nerf)Druid-Rejuvenate is now 25CD, lasts 12 seconds, and has the same healing per second as before
(I don't know)Ninja-Mirror Image is now 15CD, lasts 10 seconds, always makes 3 images, and varies damage to images with level (350% down to 200%)
(slight nerf)Ninja-Blind is now 25CD and lasts 15 seconds, with the same 3 second daze
(moderate buff)Dragoon-Jumping Thrust is now 15CD and lasts 7 seconds, with the same 3 second daze
(slight buff)Dragoon-Penta Thrust is now 25CD and does 100xskill level normal damage and 75xskill level magic damage, in addition to causing the breath weapon. (This is about 200 more than before, to adjust for time.)
(I don't know)Rogue-Eviscerate is now 15CD and does 100xskill damage
(I don't know)Rogue-Gouge is now 25CD and causes sleep for a little bit longer (3/4/5/6 seconds)
(Rogues usually go for the passive with critical...)
(moderate nerf)Warlock-Skill Coil is now 15CD and causes fleeing for 1-2.5 seconds
(slight nerf)Warlock-Life Drain is now 25CD and lasts for 12 seconds
(big nerf)Warlock-Hellfire damage is halved
(moderate nerf)Warlock-Minion heath and damage is reduced
(hopefully we can play with the Warlock again, now)

That's about it. Nohwl will be disappointed that I didn't include my Priest model change to PotM in this little tweak of the original game, but eh. Oh, but I did change the Paladin's model to the non-blood elf captain. I didn't like the mandatory red.

[AgentPaper]

Edit2: This map protection thing reduces the map's size by almost half!

Heh, you don't actually know how the map protector works, do ya? The main thing it does is throw out all the data not needed to run the map, but which is needed to edit it in the map editor, including things like editor-only names, trigger comments, and so on. I think it also converts all the GUI triggers into raw JASS code. The real stickler is that it deletes a couple very critical pieces of code (I'm not actually sure what they are or what they do) that are needed to even open the map in the map editor, which is why you get the error.

I think some editors *might* also throw some encryption junk in there as well, but the vast majority of the protection is just trimming off the fat that the editor produces and needs to run.

Edit: Oh, and make sure you keep an unprotected version of your map on your disk at all time, along with the protected version which you host, because there's no "un-protect" button on those map protectors. Since it's straight up destroying data, not just applying an encryption, it doesn't really have any way to un-do it's work, which is by un-protecting maps is so difficult.

[nooblade]

But, but, it's text. Like, the third most lowly form of data. But I guess there aren't many imported models or things like that, now are there?

Usually, a compiler would strip off comments first, before processing. I'm not used to this quirkyness about distributing at all.

[Winterwind]

@Paper: Looks solid. The four player version should be incredibly nasty to the Orcs. But why do the two bunkers at the middles of the sides left and right have to be destroyed? It looks like they are right where they need to be to me...

The eight player version looks strong in theory, but I am strongly doubtful whether the outer ring can actually be finished on time.

@Nooblade: Looks good; how well it works remains to be seen in practice, of course, but all of these changes sound sensible to me. Looking forward to a test.

[AgentPaper]

@Paper: Looks solid. The four player version should be incredibly nasty to the Orcs. But why do the two bunkers at the middles of the sides left and right have to be destroyed? It looks like they are right where they need to be to me...

The eight player version looks strong in theory, but I am strongly doubtful whether the outer ring can actually be finished on time.

They have to be destroyed because they're owned by the two offense players, who won't be upgrading the armor of their burrows. Thus, they're a weak point in the wall until replaced.

We also found out that upgrading spikes only 3 times and then just going purely for armor and engineers was the best course of action. This means that the wall players get little to no income, though, so the offense players should be sending gold to them.

For the 8-player version, I'm not terribly worried about the time it takes to build the walls. Each wall player is actually building more bunkers to complete the wall in the 4-player version than in the 8-player version (10 as opposed to 8) and we had enough time to do that when we tested it.

I'm more worried about the long stretches of straight wall than that, honestly. They may prove to be too much of a weak point in the defenses in the later portion of the game.

Anyways, I'm gunna get on right now, and if we get 3 other people interested, I'll see if we can test out the 4-player version some more.

[nooblade]

Duh! Why didn't I change the mana efficiency and cooldown of the Priest's heal?

Spoiler

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Before: 40, 80, 120, 160 hp, 1.5CD, 15 mp per skill. 2.7 hp per mp. 26.7, 53.3, 80.0, 106.7 hp per second.

Now: 60, 120, 180, 240 hp, 2.5CD, 25, 38, 45, 50 mp. 2.4, 3.2, 4.0, 4.8 hp per mp. 24, 48, 72, 96 hp per second.

For comparison, the Druid's Rejuvenation.
Before: 150, 300, 450, 600 hp. 15CD, 50 mp. 3, 6, 9, 12 hp per mp. 10, 20, 30, 40 hp per second for the 15CD, 15, 30, 45, 60 hp per second for the 10 second duration.

Now: 225, 450, 675, 900 hp. 25CD, 75 mp. 3, 6, 9, 12 hp per mp. 9, 18, 27, 36 hp per second for the 25CD, 15, 30, 45, 60 hp per second for the 15 second duration.

So, the situation where you spend 240 mana as a Priest to heal your comrades for 600 health (and they still die, of course) shouldn't happen so often anymore. But the CD might be too long and the individual heals might be too intimidating. Especially with Light Staff = 800 insta heal. I picked 5CD just because it was the highest value that didn't seem terribly prone to overhealing.

Well, also there's the matter of the Robe item. It gives the bonus mana regen for 2 seconds, so a CD half this big would be ideal for using that when healing... Maybe I'd cut it in half for the benefit there.

Edit: There, trying that, lots of things cut in half. Maximum value of a single heal: 384.

What I'm curious about is if this is going to be helpful when someone uses one of the heal-denying snares (Gouge, Blood Thirst, or Mortal Strike) and/or an Axe. Those're nasty for Rejuvenation, if they're used after Rejuv is cast. Having a Bubble-independent, instant heal (that I'm more worried about being overpowered now) is kinda nice.


Anyway, that's tweak version 0.2, in a wrap. I could also change it so that there are 12 slots for players (the are three "neutral" non-player players that have everything that the normal 12 players do, only Neutral Passive had funny AI), but we never seem to have that many to play it and I don't want to do work for pubs.

[Winterwind]

They have to be destroyed because they're owned by the two offense players, who won't be upgrading the armor of their burrows. Thus, they're a weak point in the wall until replaced.

Ohhh, I see. Yeah, makes perfect sense.

We also found out that upgrading spikes only 3 times and then just going purely for armor and engineers was the best course of action. This means that the wall players get little to no income, though, so the offense players should be sending gold to them.

One nice thing to note: Upgrading armour also upgrades the durability of the engineers. With enough armour upgrades, there may even be a wall breach, and the engineers are still going to survive quite a while even while under direct attack of the entire orc horde.

Also, I'm quite sure that in the later game you will want more spikes than that, starting with the simple reason that you will be able to afford ten spike-upgrades for a single armour upgrade.

What I'm curious about is if this is going to be helpful when someone uses one of the heal-denying snares (Gouge, Blood Thirst, or Mortal Strike) and/or an Axe. Those're nasty for Rejuvenation, if they're used after Rejuv is cast. Having a Bubble-independent, instant heal (that I'm more worried about being overpowered now) is kinda nice.

Hmmm... I never had the impression healing needed buffing in CfG. Contrariwise, I always thought it was rather powerful already, and a team with multiple healers extremely difficult to beat. Not sure if buffing it further really is the way to go.

[AgentPaper]

You should slot the various healers in to different roles:

Paladin: Long cooldown heal, but quicker cast than now, and heals for a lot. Great as an off-healer to help keep a focused person alive. Perhaps also buffs their armor for a short period?

Druid: Moderate cooldown, long duration heal over time, not very good at keeping someone focused alive, but after throwing up their hot they can shapeshift and do other stuff, or act more as a caster.

Priest: Short cooldown, instant cast, moderate HP heal, best all-around healer, almost as good as paladin at keeping one person alive, and almost as good as druid at keeping a bunch of people alive, but to do so requires leaving less time or mana for anything other than healing.

[nooblade]

I've rarely seen Holy Light get snared with the 2.5 second cast time it has now. Even in games sans pubbies. And if it is snared, then that's one snare that can't be used on the focused target (so long as it's not the Paladin). Anyway, it doesn't need to be sped up. Not unless the people who try it suddenly get super-prosauce. Plus, I like the low CD because of the symmetry and also because there's less overhealing but I was thinking about swapping Holy Light's 15CD with Hammer's 25CD. Decided not to because I like the possibility of having a main-healer Paladin in low player games.

I think I could actually do a tweak that makes Holy Light also able to damage enemies, but it wouldn't be based on your dps, not for a while anyway. I wouldn't even have to change the base ability for it. But other than that, I don't think it's anything near broken.


So now, the Druid's heal is the long cooldown one, rather than being tied with the Paladin. It's best suited for use on an ally who's fleeing and low hp. The latest change just makes it more so. The bubble-ness is reduced, so it's less helpful during combat. The high numbers (225-900!) look intimidating, but I don't think I should be so worried about balancing for the situation where someone can't overcome the amount healed per second, which is the same as before. But nerfing that is easily something that I consider an option.

The longer CD allows for more interesting run-around stuff, too. If you focus on a low-armor hero to get the rejuv on it, then you'd have a longer window to switch targets and take that other one out, which pretty much didn't work at all for the first rejuv. That's one of the things I wanted to look for.

For the Druid, I'm more worried about the CD of Entangling Roots. It's very snare-y now, with the lack of a projectile it snares the target instantly. His is the snare that would be perfect for interrupting things like Searing Arrows and Holy Light, those ranged combos that noone ever seems to snare.


The main complaints about Heal was the terrible mana cost. There's no doubt that it could've been used as a main healer, but long-term battles were trouble, even for the heal-only Priests. Also, like before, Power Word: Shield rapidly approaches much better mana efficiency than heal (but still worse than Rejuvenate).



I really don't think I've buffed healing, it's more of a unnerf for Heal itself. I like the way that a focused hero is usually forced to run due to lack of healing. In terms of hp per mana cost, Rejuvenate is the same as before. For hp per CD, Heal and Rejuvenate both lost a tenth of their effectiveness.


Next up, I think I'll try changing Tranquility to Starfall and putting the enemy damage thing on Holy Light. See how that goes. I think I can get the former done before the end of the weekend, anyway.

[AgentPaper]

I still think holy light should give a short armor buff, to help make it good to discourage people from focusing on someone. If you don't do that, though, you NEED to decrease the cast time on holy light. The way it is right now, you have to start casting it before the other team even STARTS to focus on one of your squishies, or they will die before the heal goes off. Not to mention that those 2.5 seconds are seconds you're not out there being a tank or helping your group focus or running away if you're being focused.

Also, you might want to look at the hunter ultimate. It seems pretty...lame. Perhaps switch it and the beast unleashed thing?

[nooblade]

Yes, the squishies need to run. Forcing a change of targets is very powerful (rather than just making the prospect unattractive), so it goes on ultimates like Blessing of Protection.

The Hunter's ult is intended to cause the most damage from the draining mana. It's a snare you use on the guy you want out of your face, rather than one you would use one the guy you're trying to kill, that part won't change. I'll make it dps-dependent in five years or whatever it takes.

Two bubbles have spell immunity attached to them, Beast Within and Hellfire, which is very powerful. I'm thinking about completely removing that aspect of those skills. But not quite yet.


Killing things with Holy Light is very satisfying. I went with two thirds damage for the offense, though.

[u-gotNOgame]

I, unlike AgentPaper, am fine with the cast time as it is... I would however like to see holy buffed to percentage based for heal. We talked briefly about this but let me try and explain more. I think that as it stands the paladin heal is often not looked out because at low levels its simply not worth it with the HP it heals. Now there are two way I think you could go about this.
1) You could set fixed percentage heal, something like 50 percent, and then just reduce cd and/or cast time with leveling. The thing about this is that it might make to good of a one point wonder for an "oh crap" moment.
2) Start low and go high with the percentage 35/45/55/65 (about) and in addition lower the Cd and/or cast time with leveling. This seems more likely to me and it would work to help establish the paladin as a good healer.
Looking at it now that might be a little too good as a healer but you could always just tweak the number around. I like the percentage based heal because it is then scaled, its no longer a flat number that is good on a squishy char and bad on a more tank hero. I think that this would help establish them.

-UGNG

[nooblade]

I put 0.3 on orochi, btw, in case anyone wants to try it out during the week. Also, if you hate Starfall, then a bunch of you have 0.2 and can revert it back. It's probably underpowered, being snare-able and all, but eh.



Might as well update the healing chart with the Paladin too.

Spoiler

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Priest's Heal.
Before: 40/80/120/160 hp, 1.5CD. 15/30/45/60 mp. 2.7 hp per mp. 26.7, 53.3, 80.0, 106.7 hp per second.

Now: 60/120/180/240 hp, 2.5CD. 25/38/45/50 mp. 2.4/3.2/4.0/4.8 hp per mp. 24/48/72/96 hp per second.

Druid's Rejuvenation.
Before: 150/300/450/600 hp. 15CD. 50 mp. 3/6/9/12 hp per mp. 10/20/30/40 hp per CD cycle seconds. 15/30/45/60 hp per second for the 10 second duration.

Now: 225/450/675/900 hp. 25CD. 75 mp. 3/6/9/12 hp per mp. 9/18/27/36 hp per CD cycle seconds. 15/30/45/60 hp per second for the 15 second duration.

Paladin's Holy Light.
Now: 175/350/525/700. 2.5 cast time. 15CD. 50 mp. 3.5/7/10.5/14 hp per mp. 11.7/23.3/35/46.7 hp per CD cycle seconds. 70/140/210/280 hp per second of cast time.

As you can see, everything other than the base amount and the cast time is just a little better than for Rejuvenate. And the cast time is a big drawback, similar to the frequent casting of Heal. It's half the healing of the Priest skill at triple the mana efficiency, which is nice for a dummy, but Paladins have enough intelligence for better than that.

I agree that this is a bit sad for a combo skill. It's supposed to be stronger, but interruptable. Plus, I have already changed the game just to add main-healer capacity for one class. And, on top of that, I'm familiar with the converted trigger for Holy Light and I bet I could do it with minimal fuss. It's possible to figure out a way to work a percentage heal in with the Light Staff item.

But I really think that putting a percentage heal for this skill is going to be more difficult to balance than it's worth. CfG is so much based around attacking the squishy opponents, the percentage would have to be rather high for effectiveness there. Get a nice number, maybe a little bit better than the flat number here, and then the complaints for the other situation come in. And I'm really not excited about the result of combining both into one skill (although it would be simpler than Gouge).


I'll think about it. My weekend has run out.


Edit: How 'bout if I lower the range to something like 600 to allow more snares (I think it's at least 800 now, more like 1000, about 75% shorter range anyway), and then make the damage more flat? Like so:

Current: 175/350/525/700. 2.5 cast time. 15CD. 50 mp. 3.5/7/10.5/14 hp per mp. 11.7/23.3/35/46.7 hp per CD cycle seconds. 70/140/210/280 hp per second of cast.

Proposed: 300/450/600/750. 2.5 cast time. 15CD. 50 mp. 6/9/12/15 hp per mp. 20/30/40/50 hp per CD cycle seconds. 120/180/240/300 hp per second of cast.

So, the maximum heal would be 1,200, whereas before, it was 1,120. But the minimum is a lot better (lots of minimums should be better), and the maximum heal was already decent.

The efficiency is even higher, but there's not too much I could do about that. Unless I change the way that the light staff works specifically so that more mana goes into your heals (all the other staves cause extra mana use). I could even do it with a buff that may be disabled... Hey, sounds pretty neat, something for a later version, if not for right now.


I'm mostly just curious about whether it's going to be snared if the range is lowered. It could be that people are so intent on ganking someone (plus playing with sound off?) that they don't notice the heal.

Still thinking.

Edit2: Actually, technically, there is precedent for a percentage heal with the Warlock's Health Funnel. Interesting. Well, it would solve the overhealing problem for raising the maximum too much.

I'll test it sometime. I think the mix between percentage and flat-value heal is going to work out best. I'd try it first with the linear heal at 150/300/450/600 and the percentage heal at 12.5/15/17.5/20. Or 100/200/300/400 and the percentage heal at 20/25/30/35, for even more high-level power.

A percentage of health damage component on an attack skill would be terrifying, as well, but I could nerf or eliminate that part.

Edit3: Nevermind, bunch of stuff to study for, see you all later. I'll have more time again at the end of next week.

[u-gotNOgame]

Ooo, I like the idea of healing a flat number plus a percentage, it allows for early game power and late game scaling. What if for damage it did two-thirds of the flat heal plus a small DoT or debuff (call it sunburn or something). Or thinking about it maybe the flash of light would break channel, so if you start casting and then 2.5 seconds later they're in the middle of casting it acts as a snare. I think that would mostly cache in lucky situations as there are much more reliable and effective snares out there, also most combos have shorter than 2.5 second cast... so they would have to start casting after you.

-UGNG

[Winterwind]

And reminder: Tomorrow is our next custom map session. I hope to see you all there!

Also: Ah, damnit, seems I have once again managed to accidentally delete my "Send No Reminders To..." list. I think I know whom I should not send any reminders to by memory anyway, but if you should get a PM in spite of having asked me to not send any, this would be why. Sorry.

[The Orange Zergling]

I'm not entirely sure how it will work out yet, but I think I'll be absent for most of tomorrow's session due to my mother's birthday (it was actually yesterday, but my brother couldn't celebrate with us then because of work so we're doing dinner tomorrow). I'll try to come for at least a little while, but no promises.

EDIT: Wait, nevermind, schedule change. Full steam ahead.

[Inhuman Bot]

I'll be coming tommorow, too.

4/6 people in my D&D group have the day off tommorow, so we're starting and ending earlier then usual.

Also, Metastasis has had some fairly major changes made... Consider trying it agin?

[Winterwind]

I have a two day long roleplaying session with RL friends (starting on Saturday), so I won't get to post a reminder for the melee session tomorrow; hence, doing it now instead.

I will be back for the melee session, though I may be slightly late (probably not though). And of course I'll be at the custom map session today, too (I mean, who needs sleep, right? )

[nooblade]

Hard studying is hard. Next week is going to be one of those weeks where there are three exams. But anyway, played some CfG today as a break.

I guess I'll spoiler this so that it doesn't take up a whole page.

Spoiler

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I dunno about the rest of you, but I really like the changes to CfG. The Priest really feels like a main healer now, as intended. The Druid has a more difficult time with healing, especially for an entire group, not sure if the snare makes up for that loss. But Starfall, while not good with the focusing, causes a lot of panic for those squishy 4 Hunter teams. The Paladin has a foot model without the red colors and a shiny mount and the blasting enemies with Holy Light is fun. The Warlock, well, it's the one I haven't tried yet, but it seems like he's still doing alright with the minion and Drain Life.

If there's any change that I regret a bit, it's the Ninja's swap with Blind and Mirror Image (and the nerfing of the latter), but I hope it's for the better. In particular, Mirror Image doesn't make it so easy to weed out the images from the real one anymore. The Dragoon and the Warrior feel pretty much the same as before, surprisingly. I think the Rogue is still a mess with Eviscerate offering nothing attractive and Gouge being a ridiculously multifaceted skill, I think I'll exchange some of that.

So, next time I can do some updates, Rupture would replace Evicerate, to give her a bleeding-inducing combo, very fast for cast time and CD, and can be countered with either a snare or a bubble but also does all that wonderful bleeding stuff like reduce healing. Some kind of "Sleep Poison" would replace Gouge, which eliminates the more offensive bleeding part. Maybe I'll actually see it used to disable someone. It would be even easier to use if I put it into a ranged form, like a "Dart of Stunning".

I think I'll also change the Dragoon's triggerized Wyvern spells so that they're enabled for player use instead of automatically cast, which means you could heal anyone or, after using a Penta Thrust, target anyone with the lightning breath. Plus the control of the Wyvern is never taken away. So, theoretically, the Dragoon could heal as well as the other healing classes, given the Breath-upgrading skills and a Light Staff. Does that sound appealing? It would be the first minion healer, meaning you would shut it down by killing the Wyvern. Eh, I'll test it. But he probably won't be as good at healing as the other three.

I might also reduce the overall effect of Ancient Circle (maybe just eliminate the flat, normal attack damage increase) to improve the Spirit Link ability that heals the Wyvern. Since, y'know, investing heavily into there kinda sucks if the Wyvern dies. Or just have the thing heal itself now, I guess.

I might do the percentage heal part for the Paladin too, try some numbers for it at least, but Holy Light looks acceptable for now.

Oh, and I think I'll nerf the range on Starfall a bit (run away!), but add to the damage.

Most of this is just a giant memo for me to pick up on after I get back.

Edit: Yay! Tests are done. Now, time to relax and not do any editor stuff until the weekend.

[742]

so, i need help staying awake until at least eight PM pacific tonight. ive been awake for a long time already though, and all my non-wc3 options involve bioware products, which would keep me up until eight AM and i would just have the same problem again but worse. so heres the short version: get on wc3 and help me with this tremendous effort, be a part of-oh **** it, we all know you just want to kill orcs and i want to be entertained for a few hours so i can get my sleep schedule back on track so log on!