GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

[Winterwind]

Sorry I had no time yesterday to join you, Eve.


Everyone, reminder: Tomorrow is our next custom map session. I hope to see you all there.

[742]

perfectly fine; there were complications so i didnt last long.

[nooblade]

I really need to learn how to spell. Or run all my code through a spellchecker. Or somehow get one in JassCraft. Or just change the English language.

Twice now, I've done a bunch of pointless debugging just because I spelled "interger" instead of "integer".

But man, I must've made that error so many times in the proof-types of math classes, and only now realize how silly it would've looked. "What's an 'interger?'"

[742]

i think its a type of fish. i could be wrong.

[Winterwind]

Well, let's analyse it etymologically.

'Inter' - between.
'Ger' - doesn't seem to make much sense, but considering how it's pronounced, one could imagine it evolved from 'jar'.

Combined with Eve's insight, I figure it must be a type of fish of which the main habitat are jars - presumably, it travels from jar to jar in a manner not unlike that of flying fish gliding above the water.



Also, tomorrow is our next melee session. I hope to see you all there.

[nooblade]

Well, the Rogue stuff is done for a bit, methinks. I don't think I'll post anymore numbers, if you don't mind, they're in the game perfectly clear if and when I put it out.

Seems like interest is minimal, plus I'm running out of "tweak-y" kinds of things, so I think I'll go on to bigger and better things after experimenting with Dragoon healing.

So, Healing Breath is interesting because it's dependent on the hero level. Both of the breaths are, actually. With everything set to maximum, at the moment (default for Dragoon), it heals a bit more per second than the Priest could.

Edit: For some reason, even though I have the "Targets allowed" part of the ability set up, the spell that gets triggered into Healing Breath doesn't register unless it's cast on the Dragoon (verified with BJDebugMsg). Doesn't even give a "can't target that" message, won't show any non-trigger animations except the "rotate to face selected unit". Very odd. Also frustrating.

Might be a good place to just quit. Figured out just about everything I could from the original triggers, and while I respect that they work, it's pretty sub-optimal, etc. I have a 0.4, though.


Edit2: Well, I made a 0.5 version anyway. Highlights are introduction of bandages (short range in-combat consumable) and change for Light Staff to convert mana to healing (at the same amount of healing as before). Plus there's a change to the Priest's Heal so it isn't autocast and so that multiple Priests can heal the same target (or the Priest can heal the same target that a Cleric is healing). Also some playing around with ability ranges.

Edit3: Everything works, I'm pleasantly surprised. If there are no objections, I'd like to leave the game like this for some months (more like years), maybe some small changes for balance and range.

Bandages influence the game even less than I had thought (should've figured), I might want to change it to something more like 3 or even 4 or (gasp) 5 times intelligence. Don't think I'll make them change bleeding at all, though.

[Melamoto]

Not sure if this is the place to ask, but I have a problem with B.Net. There have been a large increase in the number of bot hosters since I last played, and that's mostly good. However, I keep getting autokicked from the games. I eventually found out that this was because they had detected I was using a namespoofer; the problem is that I'm not. I've tried everything that seemed obvious, but it still keeps saying that apparently I am playing in another game. Is this a common problem, and is there a way to fix it?

[Winterwind]

This is most certainly the right thread to ask; alas, I have no idea what the solution to this problem might be (nor have I heard of this particular problem before), but I hope someone else can help you.

[Winterwind]

Hey, nobody here who could help Melamoto?


So, reminder: Tomorrow is our next custom map session. Alas, I won't be there; going to visit my parents tomorrow and help them a bit with refurnishing their house. I'll be back on Sunday for the melee session though. Have fun in the meanwhile.

[Legoshrimp]

Oh sorry Melamoto didn't see your post. I have never really heard of this but I'll try doing what I can to help. First by you have tried everything obvious what have you tried? I mean things that are obvious to me are probably not the same as things that are obvious to you. Have you tried using a different battle.net account? I don't think that would be the problem, but better to do something that takes less then a minute then go through a long list of other things and find out at the end that that is all you needed to do :p Also do you run any third party applications with WarCraft 3? I haven't seen anything myself but programs like xfire and steam might also be causing you problems. So try closing everything else on your comp and just running WarCraft 3, if you can join bot games while doing that then its some other software that is causing your problem. You also might want to try reinstalling WarCraft 3, assuming you have your CD keys.

Hope that helps.

[Winterwind]

Change of plans: Due to pretty hefty snowfalls (that might make the journey unsafe) and my parents telling me they will not need my help this week after all, I'll be attending tomorrow's session after all (probably won't be here next week though).

[Melamoto]

Ok, problem's fixed. With no apparent reason why. I still have no idea what caused it, or what caused it to stop happening again. But I'm happy with the conclusion.

Anyway, I would be interested in attending the custom map session. What kind of maps do you play? Stuff like DotA, LTW, and FF, or do you also do things like Parasite, Predator, Uther Party, etc?

[Inhuman Bot]

Stuff like DotA

No.

LTW

No

FF

Not sure what that is, so I doubt it.

Parasite

No.

Predator

No.

Uther Party

Sometimes.

[Winterwind]

Ok, problem's fixed. With no apparent reason why. I still have no idea what caused it, or what caused it to stop happening again. But I'm happy with the conclusion.

Awesome!

Anyway, I would be interested in attending the custom map session.

Yay! In that case, welcome!

What kind of maps do you play? Stuff like DotA, LTW, and FF, or do you also do things like Parasite, Predator, Uther Party, etc?

There is a seperate GitP group for DotA which meets on Wednesdays (or used to; I have no idea whether it still exists, actually). We have a fair number of people who detest it, so if it ever gets played, it happens only when none of these people are around - as that's rather rarely the case, it doesn't really get played by us.

All of the other maps you mentioned have been played at one point or another (I'm assuming FF is Footmen Frenzy?), though Uther Party would be the only one for which this has been the case frequently.

We essentially operate on the basis of people proposing maps they want to play, and if nobody objects, we play them. Choices that get played with any frequency would include:

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- Rabbits vs. Sheep
- Desert of Exile
- Conquest for Glory
- Elimination Tournament
- Worm Wars
- Stand of the Elves
- Pyramid Escape
- Uther Party
- Element TD
- Imperial Castle Defense
- Eeve TD
- Legion TD
- Castle Fight
- Warhammer 40k AoS
- SWAT
- Islands TD
- Magic The Gathering TD
- Dark Deeds
- Pest Invasion
- Warhammer 40k TD
- Run Kitty Run
...and probably a huge number of others I am forgetting right now.

New maps are always welcome.

[Inhuman Bot]

New maps are always welcome.

Prepare for them to be shot down, and have yourself mocked until the end of time, however.

[The Orange Zergling]

Yeah, our map pool has gotten somewhat stagnant lately, so if there's anything new suggested people will normally (unless it's from a genre they inherently don't like or heavily based on a map they already don't like or something) agree to try it out.

[Winterwind]

Prepare for them to be shot down, and have yourself mocked until the end of time, however.

Only if they turn out to be bad, or at least, not fun for the people involved.

[Inhuman Bot]

Only if they turn out to be bad, or at least, not fun for the people involved.

If I seem bitter, it's because if someone shows the group a map the group dislikes, it's immediately assumed either I showed it to the group, or Istari. did.

Also, being rather sick today, I'll probably be comeing to the custom session tommorow instead of going out.

[Winterwind]

If I seem bitter, it's because if someone shows the group a map the group dislikes, it's immediately assumed either I showed it to the group, or Istari. did.

Okay, I'll make sure to randomly blame someone else the next time some map is disliked. Maybe Faith. Nobody will dare to complain at the bunny.

Also, being rather sick today, I'll probably be comeing to the custom session tommorow instead of going out.

Sorry for your sickness.
Glad you'll be with us though.

[Inhuman Bot]

Okay, I'll make sure to randomly blame someone else the next time some map is disliked. Maybe Faith. Nobody will dare to complain at the bunny.

Good, because it usually IS him.

[AgentPaper]

Anyone here played X Hero Siege? Been having some fun with it recently, it seems to be pretty popular despite being a horrible un-polished game. I figure that, if it's still fun and popular without being well made, then a well made version should do awesome, right?

Anyways, that's the theory, so I'm making my own version of the game, though it is of course very different in everything but the main premise. (that being, you have a hero and hold off legions of enemies) I'm trying to keep it mostly simple, and going more for quantity over quality of heroes, using a lot of non-triggered abilities and such. Eventually I'll go in and polish them up some more, but for now I just want to get a basic map going, which I have so far failed to do.

Oh, and for those who remember, I am in fact still working on Fall of the Lich King, though not often. It's harder to work on than the hero siege copycat, mostly because the triggers are so much more complicated.

Edit: Forgot to ask the question I'd been leading in to: If you have played X Hero Siege, or a similar game, are there any specific ideas you've had for game mechanics for it? Modes, heroes, abilities, special events, etc.

[Melamoto]

Anyone here played X Hero Siege? Been having some fun with it recently, it seems to be pretty popular despite being a horrible un-polished game. I figure that, if it's still fun and popular without being well made, then a well made version should do awesome, right?

I didn't really think of it as horribly un-polished. Not exactly a perfect finish, but I didn't see anything particularly wrong with it. Other than some of the items, and events.

Edit: Forgot to ask the question I'd been leading in to: If you have played X Hero Siege, or a similar game, are there any specific ideas you've had for game mechanics for it? Modes, heroes, abilities, special events, etc.

I don't have many specific ideas, but from my experience with it (Which I have a fair bit of), there is a common trend. Heroes who get powerful AoE attacks do well at the very beginning, but the balance of power shifts quickly to every hero who gets a multi-attack of some kind, even as an ultimate. If any heroes have some kind of multi-enemy attack, then try to make sure it isn't too powerful.
I would also recommend removing the mid-game event. A lot of heroes will struggle to get 100 kills, while others may easily hit maximum gold long before the event finishes, which is even nastier if -bt is allowed.

[AgentPaper]

I didn't really think of it as horribly un-polished. Not exactly a perfect finish, but I didn't see anything particularly wrong with it. Other than some of the items, and events.

Well, there's only, like 3 items in the game that are worth buying, and then there's the items you get from special events, which always end up going to the same person, generally. The heroes are very different in power, especially right in the beginning when it is arguably the most important. The first special event, with the dwarf, is a joke, and almost completely based on luck, unless you have a hero that makes it a breeze, like the blademaster, or someone that can summon something into the water. The bosses are also incredibly boring, being big walking stat-blocks to a T. Any skill that doesn't scale with your abilities somehow, like critical strike or % increase buffs, tend to be overpowering in the first part, before you get a lot of stats, and then worthless afterwards, once you start getting such high stats that +4000 damage is mostly irrelevant.

I don't have many specific ideas, but from my experience with it (Which I have a fair bit of), there is a common trend. Heroes who get powerful AoE attacks do well at the very beginning, but the balance of power shifts quickly to every hero who gets a multi-attack of some kind, even as an ultimate. If any heroes have some kind of multi-enemy attack, then try to make sure it isn't too powerful.

This is more just a problem of balance in general, I think, and out-of-control stat growth. I plan to have a better hold on stats in general, to the point of not having tomes at all, at least not in their current form. Items will play a bigger role, though I also plan to keep them simple enough that if you don't care too much, you can just buy items that give you your main stat and you'll be just fine outside of really high difficulties.

I would also recommend removing the mid-game event. A lot of heroes will struggle to get 100 kills, while others may easily hit maximum gold long before the event finishes, which is even nastier if -bt is allowed.

I actually like that event, though it was very much too lucrative. I'll more likely than not have something like it in my map, but it won't be such a huge deal if you don't do as well in it, and more than that, every hero should be able to do about as well in it in the first place.

[AgentPaper]

Geh, not going to be able to make it tonight. Sleep schedule refuses to obey my wishes, as evidenced by the fact that I am still up right now, instead of getting up.

[Winterwind]

Geh, not going to be able to make it tonight. Sleep schedule refuses to obey my wishes, as evidenced by the fact that I am still up right now, instead of getting up.

Awww, I know that pain. That really sucks. My condolences.

[AgentPaper]

Awww, I know that pain. That really sucks. My condolences.

Ah, don't worry about it. It happens to me fairly often. Well, my sleep schedule getting off. Usually it doesn't take long to get back to normal though. (or much longer to get back off-schedule, for that matter)

...and yes, still up.

[742]

quantity over quality is BAD. having just one class thats fun to play is better than 100 that are boring. consider stat based spells for a simple scaling solution. also for anyone attempting game design in any form (first time DM to computer science degree looking to make videogames for a living) i would reccomend absolutely playing certain games with a critical eye, or looking back on them if youve played them and remember them well.

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portal then an oldschool 80s puzzle game where you just try everything against everything else

then system shock 2 and/or COD4, then to painkiller (play on low graphics and forget the cool factor of whatever your doing) then a bad FPS (of which i cant think of any; there are too many for them to be memorable)

then starcraft, compare it to warcraft 2 or C&C, something with mostly symmetrical factions, then something like dawn of war which (the version i played at least, honestly it didnt look intruiging enough for me patch) was not at all polished

look at what the developers might have intended and how the gameplay made you act, how the diminishing accuracy and regeneration mechanics of COD4 werent entirely realistic, but they made you play the game realistically by dodging between cover; how the three tightly balanced but clearly defined races of starcraft stay original a thousand times longer than the however-many unbalanced races in dawn of war.
i might also suggest taking a look at the differences in the combat between mass effect 1 and mass effect two, how they took the messy inventory system and skills that took the game from cover based shooter they intended to spamfest (or circle strafing spamfest) and tightened everything up into a nice cover based shooter with level progression and clearly defined classes by simply making cooldowns universal and telling the inventory system to **** off, although sacrificing realism in the process. just dont expect players to always do what you intended.

basically just consider what you want your players to spend their time doing and focus on making that as deep and tightly balanced as possible, then make everything else really easy so the players dont even have to think about it, or just toss out unnecessary elements entirely. items? do you want there to be items? no? then dont give players inventories. do you want players to be scared of an enemy? then make them do something permanent (like that one type of zombie in the original diablo that also took down your max health, maybe im thinking of some other game) or just kick your ass. if you want boss fights to be fun, give them inventive abilities that force the players to adapt-just avoid making any characters completely useless with them. and remember that everything in the game you tweak even a little effects everything else somehow; if you cant figure out how then your missing something.

just dont make it about spamming one thing. high APM requirement does not mean fun; not mutually exclusive but not the same thing either!
also difficult is not the same as fun. remember that. also remember that while pie has a great flavor-and wouldnt be very good pie without it-radiator fluid having a sweet flavor has caused people to die. and while alavert is tasty, pepto bismol? why cant it be flavorless!-dont bother with a setting atmosphere or dialogue unless its well done. bad is worse than nothing, and nothing is perfectly okay. in fact that applies to everything, if you have to include something in the gameplay do it well. a few simple brush strokes in a single vibrant color on a flat background or a few game mechanics polished to a mirror shine almost always turns out better than a thousand things blending together in a flat canvas of dull brown or a thousand unbalanced tacked on mechanics that dont mesh well centered around an incoherent thought; this one for example.

now excuse me, i need to give a pretentious three hour lecture on how not to do game design and i suspect you dont want to hear it, so instead i need to find my cat.

[Winterwind]

now excuse me, i need to give a pretentious three hour lecture on how not to do game design and i suspect you dont want to hear it, so instead i need to find my cat.

Actually, I found that... I think I'm inclined to call it an 'essay' you wrote up there quite intriguing and insightful. So, if you should happen to not find that cat, feel free to lecture me instead.


Also, everyone, tomorrow is our next melee session. Hope to see you all there.

[The Orange Zergling]

Also; be aware that Daylight Saving Time starts tomorrow for most of the folks in North America, so I believe this means that for everybody else the session will start one hour earlier than normal (if we do it the same way we did it last year?).

[Winterwind]

Also; be aware that Daylight Saving Time starts tomorrow for most of the folks in North America, so I believe this means that for everybody else the session will start one hour earlier than normal (if we do it the same way we did it last year?).

Yes, we do; and thank you for pointing that out, would have completely missed that.