GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

[Inhuman Bot]

Question about Undead: should I build two crypts? One with a rally point on my hero for ghouls for combat and one with a rally point on lumber?

I don't reccomend Ghouls for combat period, for the most part.

But 2 crypts is a good idea, usually, as Crypt Fiends are (usually) great.

[Winterwind]

Question about Undead: should I build two crypts? One with a rally point on my hero for ghouls for combat and one with a rally point on lumber?

Whether you should use two crypts or not depends on the exact situation, but you shouldn't be using them in that way no matter what. You only need 4 ghouls on lumber anyway (maybe 5 if you have an expo); if you have two crypts, both should be used to reinforce your army. Often one crypt is enough though.

Essentially, you should use two crypts in the following situations:
- you want to use ghouls throughout T1 and T2, rather than fiends.
- you want to use gargoyles (as gargoyles are only really effective in large numbers, so you always want to get lots of them quickly and replenish their losses quickly, too - they are somewhat fragile)
- you have an expo and have suffered or expect severe losses amongst your fiends.

In all other situations (i.e., you intend to use fiends as your main unit, have no expo and have not suffered a major hit to your number of fiends), one crypt is enough.

Lastly, I should remark that while whether using ghouls or fiends as main force is situational (personally, I use the former in 1v1s against Night Elves and Undead, the latter in 1v1s against Orcs and Humans and all team games), fiends are infinitely easier to use, so maybe somewhat better suited for a new player.

All of the above only in my personal opinion and experience (albeit as a somewhat experienced Undead player).



Also, reminder to all: Melee session tomorrow. Looking forward to it.

[nooblade]

Also, @Rigel, I was thinking of more general game design stuff, but eh, ionno.

[Inhuman Bot]

Isn't that backwards?

Fiends get eaten by Defend footmen/Range Riflemen.

[Winterwind]

Isn't that backwards?

It is. Thanks, fixed it now. My apologies, it was a tiring day.

Fiends get eaten by Defend footmen/Range Riflemen.

Eh, I find it's quite doable with proper micro. Generally, I'd agree that ghouls are initially better against Humans (and I used to use them), but the problem is ghouls get problems later on (firstly, the Human heroes can do really nasty things to them; secondly, fiends are a much better counter to casters and gryphons, i.e. some of the most dangerous things a Human is likely to use against you).

[Inhuman Bot]

Eh, I find it's quite doable with proper micro. Generally, I'd agree that ghouls are initially better against Humans (and I used to use them), but the problem is ghouls get problems later on (firstly, the Human heroes can do really nasty things to them; secondly, fiends are a much better counter to casters and gryphons, i.e. some of the most dangerous things a Human is likely to use against you).

Agreed on both counts, but I still think the point stands. You will need web equppied fiends, but that's always a good idea.

[Faulty]

So the melee. We just hang out in the channel? And people arrange games in there? I wouldn't mind being in a 2v2 or 3v3.

[The Orange Zergling]

Typically we hang out in the channel and decide on what to play next and then we all do the same thing but we occasionally split up as well. By 'the same thing', I mean some of us play and some of us observe if we have, say, 7 people and want to do a 1v1 or 2v2 or whatever but if all of us can play then all the better (almost all of the time the observers actually want to observe instead of play).

On the subject of ghouls, the main problem with them is that their hit points are so low. Late game or in large games they get absolutely shredded by basically anything but especially units like Huntresses with bounce attack or heroes with area of effect spells. There's a ghoul rush strategy that works fairly well sometimes but it really needs to be a rush to work.

[Faulty]

Alright, thanks for the info. I just happen to be playing the Undead campaign at the moment.

[Winterwind]

Alright, thanks for the info. I just happen to be playing the Undead campaign at the moment.

The Undead campaign is indeed somewhat weird, in that it gives you all sorts of units (including casters, gargoyles and so on) long before it ever gives you fiends, which are in fact the main force in most Undead armies.

[Faulty]

I haven't gotten gargoyles yet! Only acolytes, ghouls, necros and meat wagons.

[Vulkan]

Don't know if I`ll make it.

[Faulty]

Hey Winter (or anyone), just wanted your opinion on another replay. As NElf, I beat an easy human bot. My score was less than 100 points away from doubling the bot's. I think I did a lot better with both micro and macro. My two biggest mistakes were probably forgetting to build my hero for 5 seconds and leaving that bear at the bot's expo. It wasn't a big deal at the time, but could have been important had my foe not been so thoroughly wrecked.

http://www.mediafire.com/?ylnj2zyxzmk

[Winterwind]

I'll make sure to watch it and comment on it this evening when I'm back from work, Faulty.

[Faulty]

Thanks. What do they pay you for by the way, Mr. Internet Browser?

[Winterwind]

Thanks. What do they pay you for by the way, Mr. Internet Browser?

Working on my PhD thesis/calculating atmospherical profiles of gases and temperature from radiation spectra as measured by satellites.
And, hey, it's mentally exhausting. I need to make breaks once in a while.

[Faulty]

Working on my PhD thesis/calculating atmospherical profiles of gases and temperature from radiation spectra as measured by satellites.

Gee, I feel like less smart now, man.

[Winterwind]

Gee, I feel like less smart now, man.

Hey, I merely explained what I am supposed to do. I'm not saying I understand all of it.

[Faulty]

Hey, I merely explained what I am supposed to do. I'm not saying I understand all of it.

Well good luck either way.

EDIT: a list of mistakes I think I made...

• I took too long to build my hero (5 secs or so after the alter finished)
• I didn't queue wisps fast enough (a few times where the tree was not building wisps early on)
• Once the Huntress Hall was built I didn't immediately start building huntresses
• When fighting that level 5 creep wizard dude I should have used mana burn
• When I ran back to my wells, one of my Huntresses was still a little hurt and a wall still had mana, I could have healed her fully
• I lost a huntress to a creep (but she was stuck)
• At the final battle at their base, I probably could have used another rejuvinate to save a huntress or druid
• I don't think I used roar enough
• When going to take out the bot's expo I accidentally pulled a load of creeps
• I left a bear sitting at the expo
• I had the game down anyway, but I always could have upgraded my bears a bit more, maybe my huntresses, just for practice if not anything

[Winterwind]

Well good luck either way.

Thanks!


I've watched your replay now; you've spotted most of your mistakes yourself anyhow. Mostly, those aren't overly major mistakes though; in fact, I'd argue the biggest mistake was picking an Easy computer, because you have most decidedly become too good for that.

Okay, so here's what I have to say based on the notes I took while watching the replay:
- Fill up your gold mine a bit more quickly at the beginning. The first wisp you build should go into the gold mine (so there is one wisp building the altar, one building a well, and four in the mine), and only then start sending the wisps onto lumber. The proper time to fill up the mine completely is when the altar/well finish (just use the wisp that is done building first to do that); this way, you optimize your gold/lumber balance for what you will need later.
- Your build order has gotten noticeably more fluid compared to the previous replays/games I've seen of you. Your building placement has improved a lot, too.
- You might want to start your second Ancient of War more early; a good time would be the very moment you have enough lumber to do that after starting the first Ancient of War and the Huntress Hall. You will find you still get your second Moon Well finished on time to not run into the food cap (or at least, not for any significant amount of time), and you will be able to amass huntresses a lot more quickly more early that way.
- When you attack an enemy base and you see a Town Portal incoming, unless you are really, really confident you are stronger than the opponent, always pull back - not far, you should still see in what shape your opponent is, but far enough to not get trapped in a bad position by the incoming force. Town Portals can be targeted (by clicking on the scroll and then on the exact location you want to teleport to), and when teleporting back to a location to defend it, rather than to escape from an unfavourable fight, they should in fact always be targeted - which means the opponent is likely to appear in the spot most unfavourable for you. If, for instance, your hero is in the enemy base and your huntresses are outside, chances are the opponent will appear right in between them, trapping your hero in the base, and then focus fire him, forcing you to TP out yourself, when usually you could have just run or manouvered into a position where you could take the fight.
- Your use of Roar has improved a lot (could have been better still, but it already is far, far better than initially). So has you pulling unit that have gotten hit by a Lightning Shield out of the formation.
- You need to remember to upgrade better, but I'm sure that will come with practice.
- Your tech to T3 has gotten more timely, but should come earlier still. Until you have started it, you don't have to build so many Druids of the Claw; it only becomes important to have really many of them when you get their Master upgrade.
- The order at which you picked your targets was perfectly right.
- At the end you pretty much stopped macroing, but I'll blame that on you having had clearly won by that point already (I don't always keep my macro straight at that point either)

Overall, you have improved tremendously in comparison to just a few days ago.

[Faulty]

Thanks! Yes, the macroing halting was because I so obviously was winning. I was just like "Yeah I win this" and hit my Ancient of Lore macro and slammed Druid of the Claw until I ran out of gold. lol

My base lay out is good because I've played that map a lot in particular. Getting better with moon wells.

I will try a normal opponent next.

EDIT: I did try and I won. A few notes on things that happened that you may not get: at 10 mins-ish I randomly turned my army around and ran back to base. That was to buy a TP scroll. Also, after my hero is revived the second time, he just stands around for a minute. That was because I tried to assign him to a control group that had filled up and didn't notice that he wasn't in it. >_>

Tried again and lost.

[Winterwind]

EDIT: I did try and I won. A few notes on things that happened that you may not get: at 10 mins-ish I randomly turned my army around and ran back to base. That was to buy a TP scroll. Also, after my hero is revived the second time, he just stands around for a minute. That was because I tried to assign him to a control group that had filled up and didn't notice that he wasn't in it. >_>

Alright, here we go; the mistakes/improvable things I noticed:

Spoiler

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- Fill up your mine more early - the moment your altar/well finish, not any later.
- You built one wisp too much - after both Ancients of War have been ordered, you should be at 17 supply (unless you want to get a shop right away, you can build one wisp more then, but then you should use it instantly, too, so you end up with 17 supply again) - that way, you can build one huntress before your second moon well is finished. You delay your army a lot otherwise, and hurt your creeping capabilities.
- When a huntress is almost dead, pull her out of the fight and send her all the way into your base; that way, you have a chance to save her.
- You didn't fill up your expansion's gold mine for quite a while. Though I admit that's a mistake I make quite often myself, too.
- You had a huge queue in one Ancient of Lore (Adept Training for Druids, Abolish Magic, and three Druids), while the second Ancient of Lore wasn't doing anything at all.
- When you TP'd back to your expo to save it, you left half your army behind (probably they were moving and moved out of TP range). In this case, it fortunately didn't matter, because the computer ran anyway, but try to avoid it, games have been lost due to that.

Otherwise, pretty well done.

Tried again and lost.

This time, there is a theme to my advice here. I think it shouldn't be too hard to spot.

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- Buildings under construction take immensely increased damage. When you are building something and the enemy starts to attack it, prepare to cancel it - it will almost certainly not make it.
- You forgot a shop (it may have been the building that was destroyed when they attacked you that was under construction and hence died right away, but in any case you should have rebuilt it).
- You should try to upgrade more in the mid-game - keep slipping in an upgrade once in a while between units/buildings, rather than getting into T3 and then ordering a huge bunch of upgrades at once.
- Check enemy expansions regularly, and definitely do it at the time you are getting one of your own. 90% of all cases, it's better to attack an enemy's expo than his main base. In this case, you could have easily killed his expo, and there was nothing he could have done about it, had you just checked it.
- Now that was a classic example of a turn-around due to no Town Portal Scroll - you were far ahead, but then he managed to kill your hero due to lack of scroll and pulled even again. You not having a scroll may be related to you having no shop.
- That tree of life at the expo that was too far requires no comment, I think.
- You fled from a battle where you were pretty far ahead - you had several bears, his force was far weaker than yours.
- Still no Town Portal scroll or at least some Potion of Healing or Invulnerability on your hero. Probably because you still have no shop...
- ...you have no shop! At T3!
- What were the hippogryphs for? But if you already have them, use them for scouting (like, to check if the enemy has an expo, and if so, head for that, not his main).
- Your queues were too long (3 druids in one Ancient of Lore and 4 in the other). Though it's not very surprising you have problems getting rid of your gold, considering you have no shop.
- Another fight, and you almost lose a level 6 Demon Hunter - which is mostly due to there not being a TP scroll or Potion of Healing on him. Which I blame on you still having no shop!
- Not to mention that that fight was happening right next to a Goblin Shop, which carries Potions of Invulnerability, which are often even better.
- You had won the game - your hero had died (I blame it on no shop), but his army was broken, his hero almost dead and low on mana, and you had 8 bears in his base - you would have taken losses, but I'm pretty sure you could have crushed him right there. Instead, you pulled out, losing two or three bears in the process and gave him time to recover.
- ...and next fight, you pulled out of a pretty much won battle again, and this time, you did it after having lost your expo. When you lose your expo, you need to risk everything and fight relentlessly, to not give the opponent the time to translate the economical advantage into a strategical one. Though I see why you pulled out, your Demon Hunter was low on hit points - that's to be blamed on you having no shop.
- And then the battle that won the game for him, where you lost your level 8 Demon Hunter. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have lost him if not for the fact you had no shop.

So, yeah. Never underestimate the importance of that one building, and use it. Once you hit T2, always have a Potion of Healing or Invulnerability on your hero (heroes, if you have multiple ones, unless you have something like a Paladin or Death Knight so you can keep your other heroes alive even without that), and always carry a Scroll of Town Portal, too.

[Faulty]

I actually laughed reading that list of tips. Thanks.

[Winterwind]

So, reminder: Tomorrow is our next custom map session. I hope to see you all there.

[Winterwind]

And, since I won't be here tomorrow (or what passes as tomorrow for most of you), here's the slightly early reminder: Our melee session is on Sunday (which technically is tomorrow for me).
I may be slightly late to it, probably won't be though. Most definitely I will show up to it though.

[Winterwind]

Hey, don't make me triple-post!

...I guess the SC2 Beta has stopped all WC3 map making, so nobody has anything to report anymore. >.>

Anyhow, reminder: Tomorrow is our next custom map session. I hope to see you all there!

[nooblade]

...I guess the SC2 Beta has stopped all WC3 map making, so nobody has anything to report anymore. >.>

In my case, that's more of a mix between studying and ADOM. Thankfully finals are going easier on me this semester.

I'll probably play a bunch of ADOM for a while.

[Rigel Cyrosea]

I'm still working on my map, though at a slightly slower pace. I've done a lot of work on the third race now. They're not quite finished yet, but hopefully they will be for the custom map session tomorrow.

[The Orange Zergling]

...I guess the SC2 Beta has stopped all WC3 map making, so nobody has anything to report anymore. >.>

Only mostly true, I was hoping to finish up the new version of The Fifth Crusade tonight. Definitely will not be able to make a custom skin for one of the new heroes in time, but that's only aesthetic.

EDIT: Whoops, typo. I won't be able to make a skin.

---

Speaking of which, since the fancy changelog thing was fun (and is handy on my end because I can keep track of things I want to change or already have changed more easily), here it is again. I couldn't do all of the things I wanted to in this version and I couldn't test it as much as I would have liked due to time constraints but I'm pretty sure it's more or less complete.

Anyway, this is the changelog for the new The Fifth Crusade version, which is ready today.

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- New Hero: The Ancient Horror has awaken from its eternal slumber to fight for the Condemned Ones.
- New Hero: The Tree of Souls has grown tired of observing the war and has joined the Bright Haven's ranks.

- Shrinking Hex has been replaced with Voodoo.
- Arcane Hex has been replaced with Pain Totem.
- Alchemist's Fire has been replaced with Spirit Totem.
- The range at which Pandemic will spread from unit to unit has been reduced from 350 to 200.
- The Defiled Wolf now has 750/900/1050 hit points instead of 500/600/700.
- The damage per second dealt by Affliction is now 8 + (1 * rank) instead of 16 + (2 * rank).
- Bone Walls can now be Collapsed by their owner to prematurely destroy them.
- Burn the Witch now also slows the target's movement speed by 16 + (2 * rank)% for its duration.
- Rapid Shot has been reworked; it now increases your attack speed by 90 + (5 * rank)% and gives you a 48 - (4 * rank)% chance to miss on attacks for its duration.
- Using Sprint will no longer make the Sharpshooter stop moving.

- The battlefield has changed with new passageways through the mountains.
- Troops that travel to the outer lanes now spawn at their team's Warpgates or Planar Gates instead of at the main castle.

- When a player leaves the game, control of their hero is given to their allies instead of their hero being removed from play. Their gold is still distributed evenly amongst the remaining team members.

- All towers now deal Normal damage instead of Piercing.
- Large towers now have splash damage.
- Siegebreakers no longer cost food but are limited to only 2 per player.
- Siegebreakers now have 3 armor instead of 6.
- Troops that you hire and give to the computer no longer take up food while waiting to spawn. In addition, numerous bugs regarding computer-controlled hired troops have been fixed.
- The gold cost of troops has been reduced by around 20%.

- Potions now restore health or mana based on your primary attribute instead of your maximum health.
- All non-potion items now cost 200 gold instead of 150 gold.
- Some non-potion items have had their effects increased by an amount varying from item to item but generally around 50%.

To-do List:

- Make it so that when there is an imbalance in the number of players on a team, the team with fewer players has a higher food cap than normal.
- Find or make a new texture for the Tree of Souls and Hallowed Saplings.
- Rework existing heroes so that they self-synergize better, are more interesting to play and perform their designates roles better rather than some being good all-around.
- Provide some additional incentive to put more than one point in escape skills.
- Fix an issue with Potion of Forgetfulness and a couple of abilities not entirely being unlearned.

[Winterwind]

Reminder: Our melee session is tomorrow. Hope to see you all there.