GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

[Winterwind]

I have to admit, I never was too fond of that particular map. Though, fortunately for you, we do have plenty of members who are.

[Copper8642]

I must ask, have any of you ever played Tales of Kaltazar: The Great War, or Soulchess? They are both amazing maps I used to host when I could host, but somehow I lost the capability of hosting.

Oh, and that link to stuff the bot does is dead.

[Winterwind]

I must ask, have any of you ever played Tales of Kaltazar: The Great War, or Soulchess? They are both amazing maps I used to host when I could host, but somehow I lost the capability of hosting.

Never heard of these. If they are good, we sure can give them a try whenever the next opportunity presents itself.

Oh, and that link to stuff the bot does is dead.

Huh, it sure is.

Cynan! Your site is dead!

[Copper8642]

Yeah, but you'd have to google them and download them, because, as I said, I can't host. As a note, though, Soulchess is only 4 players, and ToK: The Great War is 8.

[Winterwind]

Why Google, when there is Epic War?

[Copper8642]

Google just brings me to epicwar. I'm just too lazy to search epicwar.

[nooblade]

For some reason, xFire really isn't working at all. Sorry for the folks who like it and use it (and the dnd guys) but I give up on it.

Also, that Conquest for Glory game was really fun. Tannish obviously didn't know what he was talking about when he said that Priests are underpowered. (though I was vulnerable to the mana burning gun weapon)

[Winterwind]

For some reason, xFire really isn't working at all. Sorry for the folks who like it and use it (and the dnd guys) but I give up on it.

Awww, geez, that's too bad.

Also, that Conquest for Glory game was really fun. Tannish obviously didn't know what he was talking about when he said that Priests are underpowered. (though I was vulnerable to the mana burning gun weapon)

Now that I think about it, I'm not sure anymore if he was the one who said that priests were underpowered. Somebody did, but I'm starting to think it was someone else. What Tannish said was that druids are underpowered (something I don't quite agree with, either, although they do require a fairly big amount of micro to work, as one has to switch forms constantly).

[The Orange Zergling]

So I'm going to be going to summer camp earlier than I had anticipated this year, so for the next 3 subsequent weeks, beginning this Monday, I will get home around 6 PM EST (or even later) during weekdays, meaning I'll be a couple hours late to the next 3 Friday sessions and won't be on during the week, but Sundays will be unaffected.

On the flipside, I'm taking a course in 3D-modeling so maybe when I get back I'll be able to produce some custom models.

[Winterwind]

Oooh, that might end up being simply glorious, Baneling.
Already given consideration to which of your maps would first get a model-overhaul? Or would you rather create entirely new maps to make use of that skills?

Minor side note: I probably won't, but I might end up being slightly late to the melee session.

[Copper8642]

Man, I don't want to wait a week to play with the playgrounders. Anybody on or have the chance to be on, like, right now, or any time the rest of today? I've found that games are much more fun when playing with people from GiTP. So play with me!

[The Orange Zergling]

Oooh, that might end up being simply glorious, Baneling.
Already given consideration to which of your maps would first get a model-overhaul? Or would you rather create entirely new maps to make use of that skills?

Not yet; it mostly depends on what free software I can get my hands on at home and how much I actually learn from the class.

In the end it will likely be special effects and such rather than units or structures but even that can prove incredibly useful.

[Winterwind]

So, as I've mentioned a couple of times, there is this tool called KeyCraft, available here (the site's in German, but the Download button should be easy enough to spot ) that makes reconfigurating hotkeys much easier (usually, to reconfigurate your hotkeys, you'd have to edit your CustomKeys.txt file manually. In either case, you still have to turn on the usage of custom keys in your game options.).

Amongst others, it offers an option to instantly reconfigurate all hotkeys for all races in a way that mirrors this array of 4x3 buttons on the right side onto QWER ASDF ZXCV (or QWER ASDF YXCV, or whatever else your keyboard layout might be), for all units, buildings, abilities, upgrades etc. That's immensly more intuitive and quick to use than the default settings, and also means you can easily use hotkeys even for a race for which you'd usually not be familiar with the hotkeys at all. If you are playing melee mostly, I can't recommend it enough (yes, even if you are already used to the default hotkeys, because this array is still much more comfortable to use, and it's so intuitive you won't need long to adapt).

I wouldn't recommend doing it if you are playing only custom maps (and using hotkeys there), and if you play both it's an ambivalent decision, as some custom maps use keys that KeyCraft uses for Hold Position and such for abilities, making these hotkeys unusable there.

[TMC]

Hi! I love playing WC3, and I'd love to play it with some new people for once! :)

[nooblade]

Good! Come visit us in Op GitP sometime, chances are good that someone will be around.

Something I've noticed: we expect new people not to be rude but sometimes are awfully rude ourselves, but I guess that's allowed because we know each other to be harmless. ("I'LL FLAY YOU ALIVE!" is ringing in my ears for some reason)

The maps we play depend on who's there at the time, really too hard to describe it.


Speaking of maps, Conquest for Glory is still fun and I think I'm starting to get a feel for the, err, metagame? I think the game where me and a bunch of pubs fought a pub and a bunch of channelers went wrong because their classes lacked in snares and we had an abundance of combo abilities (Dragoon, Mage, and Hunter have the most dangerous ones, which really need to be snared, and all three were with me there). Getting a few combos off in each scuffle really accelerated the damage and at the moment, I think that is what caused the landslide. Still thinking about whether this is preventable, a fluke, or a flaw in the game.

Also, I don't completely understand the relationship between bubbles and snares yet. Druids, Priests, and Paladins have bubbles that may be used on allies or themselves (Rejuvenation, Power Word: Shield, Blessing of Protection?) but I think they can't bubble themselves if hit by a snare like a Hunter could. Actually, I'm not sure if a Hunter can bubble out of a stunning ability, maybe only the snares like Entangling Roots and Blind.

Anyway, this is interesting because all three of those classes have some of the best snares in the game (Entangling Roots demands a change to human form, Silence has a long cooldown, and Hammer of Justice has shorter range, but otherwise they're ideal). It could be interesting and/or imbalanced for setting up an unavoidable combo or two at the very start of a battle.

[Winterwind]

Hi! I love playing WC3, and I'd love to play it with some new people for once! :)

Great, welcome to the group.
In addition to what Nooblade said, melee is fairly high up there on the list of what's being played, too, with us having enough members who usually focus on either melee or customs for you to be able to pick which to do.
So, which may I chalk you up for, customs, melee, or both?

Something I've noticed: we expect new people not to be rude but sometimes are awfully rude ourselves, but I guess that's allowed because we know each other to be harmless. ("I'LL FLAY YOU ALIVE!" is ringing in my ears for some reason)

We are? I never noticed (apart from Tan, occassionally), but maybe I'm just desensitivized to the people's humour...

And I didn't understand at least half of what you said about CfG. In layman terms?

[SirSigfried]

Something I've noticed: we expect new people not to be rude but sometimes are awfully rude ourselves, but I guess that's allowed because we know each other to be harmless. ("I'LL FLAY YOU ALIVE!" is ringing in my ears for some reason)

Now now, that's not fair Nooblade I only flay people when we have to plant for the harvest.

[nooblade]

We are? I never noticed (apart from Tan, occassionally), but maybe I'm just desensitivized to the people's humour...

Sometimes Slaan or Faith or I or someone else who doesn't come to mind at the moment will club heads in a manner which must be unpleasant to look upon.

And I didn't understand at least half of what you said about CfG. In layman terms?

Well, part of it was trying to understand why a particular game ended up being so imbalanced. Another part is the metagame as I see it. Maybe I'll try saying it in another way, then give up on it if that doesn't make sense. Maybe I'll write until the whole thing turns into another stupid guide.


The rock-paper-scissors aspect of the game is more of a thing to analyze than the game creator's help make it out to be. It's not as simple as Snare beats Combo beats Bubble beats Snare.

For one thing, I have rarely seen people (even us channelers) properly interrupt enemy Combos with their Snares in the situations where they are available and that person isn't fleeing for their life. Sometimes I find that my Snares were cast a second too late or that moving into range of that target took too long for the interrupt to work.

Some of the worst Snares would be the ones that require melee range (someone could just move away from them before casting their combo in that case), but most of these Snares have an ability (charge on the Warrior) or gear option that improves movement speed.

The Warlock's Snare is awful because the projectile moves slowly. You could cast it right as someone starts a combo and the snare won't reach them in time when cast from maximum range. I can't remember, but I think the Dark Stalker's Snare won't even stop a Combo.


Fully skilled up and synergized Combos are the main source of damage until very late games. Damage from Combos is dealt in such a way that healers have a more difficult time restoring it than the spread-out damage of normal attacks. Low-duration armor debuffs (the Druid's Wolf Roar or Dragoon's Penta Thrust) can be applied before combos to make them particularly deadly because of this concentrated period of damage. Focusing fire on the debuffed target also works similarly, but requires more players to drop everything else.

The damage from a Combo goes through regardless of whether the target flees from it (unless interrupted with a Snare or evaded with a spell immunity or invulnerability Bubble), putting Combos on par with Snares for killing opponents who are running. Without defense-boosting items, most classes are close to death after being hit by one Combo, being hit by two or more high-powered Combos simultaneously is terrifying even for a tank and will probably force them to run.

This is why the Gauntlet item is so important for non-strength heroes, it gives them time to run if they're hit with a Combo or if they're focused and snared, and makes the healer's job easier. THE DAMAGE YOU COULD DO WITH OTHER ITEMS IS NEGLIGIBLE. IT IS WORSE IF YOU DIE. BUY THE GAUNTLETS!

So, I guess this is just saying the obvious. If someone is hit by a Combo and low on health, focus fire on them! If the entire enemy team is healthy, use Combos on weaker enemy heroes at the edge of their group! If someone is hit by a Combo and low on health, the entire team needs to flee!

It is possible to get enough ability powerups to do more damage than in a combo, but at that point, 90% of the time, the game is already decided and the skill points you spent in Combos should have served you well. The remaining 10% of the time, you will either be at max level anyway or you will be able to afford the skill-altering item.


The Warrior, Warlock, Hunter, and Vampire classes have Bubbles with spell immunity, which makes them a viable option for preventing combos from damaging them. Paladins or Dragoons may use their bubbles for invulnerability in a few key moments before a Combo strikes.

I still need to do some tests to see exactly how the Bubbles work on the Druid, Priest, and Paladin, but I suspect that they are unable to Bubble themselves out of some Snares, making them very vulnerable in that respect. Like I said before, this is funny because those classes have some of the best Snares, in fact the ones which may be able prevent the use of Bubbles (maybe the Warlock's Snare too).

[Winterwind]

...that's still not in layman's terms.

I have no idea what Combos you are talking about (nor am I particularly aware of the existence of any), I can only barely gather that "Snare" apparently means something like an interrupting or movement stopping spell, and "Bubble" apparently has something to do with protection?

Overall, this is still totally incomprehensible to someone who hasn't either been playing the game for hours and hours or reading guides for it to catch up with the terminology, preferably both.

[Rigel Cyrosea]

...that's still not in layman's terms.

I have no idea what Combos you are talking about (nor am I particularly aware of the existence of any), I can only barely gather that "Snare" apparently means something like an interrupting or movement stopping spell, and "Bubble" apparently has something to do with protection?

Overall, this is still totally incomprehensible to someone who hasn't either been playing the game for hours and hours or reading guides for it to catch up with the terminology, preferably both.

Bubbles, combos and snares are described in the in-game help for CFG. (The quest menu stuff). Each class has one bubble, one combo, one snare, and one passive. The bubble removes negative statuses and adds some sort of bonus, the combo has a longer casting time but is stronger, and the snare is instant cast and has usually has some sort of stun or other status effect added. Snare beats combo by interrupting it. Combo beats bubble by doing loads of damage. Bubble beats snare by removing negative status effects.

It's been a while since I read the guide, but I'm pretty sure that's how it works- I'm sure Nooblade can point out any mistakes I've made and fix them.

[Winterwind]

Ah, I see. I never had the time to read it in-game, due to all time being used up for either discussion of hero choices or playing the game. It makes a lot more sense now.

[Inhuman Bot]

Awww, geez, that's too bad.

Now that I think about it, I'm not sure anymore if he was the one who said that priests were underpowered. Somebody did, but I'm starting to think it was someone else.

Said person was Einherjar, his reason being that the priest's healing skill sucked, and thus failed at the main roll you'd expect it to fufill.

[nooblade]

The guide is really, really good. There are a few silly item suggestions and class countering ideas, but otherwise I wouldn't change a thing. Ask for a pause if you'd like to read it imho.

Oh, I found that the Lance item and the armor reduction skill on the Dragoon do actually stack, but I still think I would prefer putting a different weapon on him more often than not. (anything but the Hammer, I hate the Hammer).


Any other confusion about Combos, Snares, and Bubbles? I find myself using Snares to try and catch fleeing opponents more often than I interrupt Combos with them, but I guess that's only possible when winning.

IIRC, only the Paladin's Snare involves direct application of stunning. I know that a Hunter can Bubble out of a Druid's Entangling Roots, but I am inclined to think that a Hunter can't use Beast Within to Bubble out of a Hammer of Justice stun or a Stealth stun, that's one thing I would like to test sometime (along with which classes can bubble out of Entangling Roots).


I know it sounds crazy, but the Priest is balanced between offense and defense. Mind Flay is an awesome Combo not because of the damage (which is good, a little low for such a long Combo) but because it also functions similarly to most snares by slowing down the enemy, great for teamwork in taking down fleeing enemies or protecting an ally by slowing down a determined attacker. Between using Mind Flay and healing, Priests can do well without a weapon.

[Winterwind]

What do you think about the Warlock? In our games, he seemed overpowered to ridiculous degrees (he has dangerous skills and is almost impossible to kill... and then he also brings another powerful fighter into the fray), but I was thinking that maybe it was us doing something wrong...

[nooblade]

In other news, I just had the most one sided CfG game I think is possible. Our team consisted of a Druid, a Paladin, and a Hunter. Their team was a Priest, a Warrior, a Hunter, and a Mage. Our fourth teammate was AFK the entire game and never picked a class. They left the game when we had 30 kills to their 10. I'd like to say that they split up too much, but it wasn't much more than I've seen in some games. To be fair, I had played with those teammates more than they had, but most of them got in one game before that one. I'll have to look at the replay to figure out what they did.


I noticed also that most of the Combo abilities have audible warnings for their use. Playing with sound on is a huge advantage, if you can.


I think the Warlock is an interesting class and I wouldn't be so quick to throw him out just because of balance (I bet we already play for fun rather than competition to boot). I have to admit that it would be a big disadvantage to fight one without a good stealth player though. The guide's advice to dealing with him is to ignore him when possible, which is good advice, but the exception is difficult. Particularly in the early stages the Warlock isn't a huge drain on your health, I'd kill the other non-tanks first.

Like I said above, Skill Coil is a defensive Snare, so it doesn't actually aid in killing the target as much as stopping them from doing whatever it is that annoys you. Say if a Rogue or other Stealth hero starts the backstabbing business on your ally and you want to stop him with a Snare, the Skill Coil is more effective than most other Snares (It will keep your teammate alive better) but less effective than a few other snares (your teammates don't get to wail on the Rogue). On the other hand it travels slowly, so you can't use it to Snare a faraway Combo you just saw start up. If you suspect that someone is going to unleash a Combo on your team from a distance, you would have to use Skill Coil on them beforehand and then hope that something else comes along when they get back. I don't think the healing on it is very worthwhile.

When the enemy adds a Warlock onto their team, they must accept more damage from Combos than before, especially the ranged ones like Mind Flay or Searing Arrow, so try to edge those in a bit more perhaps.

The passive ability, Soul Link, makes the Felguard attack faster and the Warlock more survivable by transferring some of his damage to the Felguard. If you really can't deal with an extra little unit sticking around (people ignore wolves and wyverns all the time), then run back to a town for the defensive bonus, maybe picking at them from a distance if they don't follow you. You can see the level the skill by the aura on the Felguard itself. If the level is high, all the more reason to kill the Felguard before the Warlock like the guide suggests. The Felguard's attack does really good splash damage, so don't stand adjacent to each other while taking damage from it.

The Felguard is pretty beefy, with 880hp +80hp per level, but it takes extra damage from hero attacks and can't Bubble, so it goes down pretty fast if you focus on it. It is really annoying how easily the Warlock can restore life for the thing, but the Health Funnel can and should be interrupted with a Snare (to the Warlock) to stop it. He can summon a new Felguard easily if it hasn't cooled down (the cooldown is 90 seconds), but if you attack the Warlock himself, he could also make a shield out of it to absorb more damage than the Felguard is able to. The cooldown and mana cost actually make it similar to a fiddled around Power Word: Shield with another option to get around it, which is probably well balanced actually because the Warlock's other low level skills are gimped.

An alternative is to assassinate the Warlock by stunning him and then unloading all the Combos you can on him, but I wouldn't try it if his teammates are around or if Soul link is leveled up really high, or if you could just kill the Felguard first at all really. He can easily be snared because his Bubble has a long cooldown and is only available at level 6.

Life Drain is capable of doing almost as much damage as Mind Flay on the Priest, but it is over a much longer period of time and with healing instead of the slowing effect. If any of the other team have ranged Snares and are good at using them, you would be better of not putting any points into it, it is one of the easiest Combos to Snare. If noone on the other team is capable of throwing a Snare on you (or just running out of the range of the spell), it would pay off rather quickly. If the Warlock is already at full hp (or maybe if you're just ignoring him), I wouldn't make it a priority to Snare him as much as with other Combos (check the hp bar because he could've been spending health to heal his minion). You can tell the spell is cast without even looking at the Warlock, and then you would either Snare him or run out of the range depending on how close he is.

Hellfire is the skill to be really worried about, this Bubble can potentially do more damage than most Combos (there are eight explosions and each does 100 or 200 damage if he's level 15). The problem with it is that the Warlock has to be in melee range to use it. If a Warlock starts moving into a melee (normally dangerous), you know he's going to be using Hellfire and you should start running, anyone should be able to outrun him as long as they're not Snared. One undesirable target (say a full hp tank with healer support) can stay behind to damage and/or snare him, and then probably run if he starts using Hellfire. If you absolutely must stop a Warlock from advancing with Hellfire I think you will need to kill, stun, or maybe Silence him (I don't know whether or not the silence will work to be honest, and haven't directly tested the stun), but be careful of how any kind of damage (the AoE of Hellfire) takes a Stealth class out of Stealth Mode.

Worst comes to worst, you may have to split up as soon as the Warlock starts using the ability, minimizing casualties, but I don't think that is going to happen very often because the duration of the ability is only ten seconds (the cooldown is 35 seconds, the skill level up tooltip is wrong) and the Warlock is vulnerable afterward. You should be able to run away from the attack even within the confines of a town, but then you would probably lose the cleric and your other support. This ability is very damaging to Creeps and is capable of holding off the waves that appear when a City reaches level 15, which has led to some of the more interesting games of CfG I've played.

One final option for the Warlock to do damage is the Fire Staff. Fortunately, it consumes a lot of mana for him and he will be more vulnerable for trying to compensate for that (or it will be a waste of money when he tries to use other skills instead or has to stop using it from complete loss of mana). Otherwise he will get a bunch of hard-damaging attacks off before the Staff needs to be turned off, made into a waste of money. If you need a boost because the Warlock is doing too much extra damage, it never hurts to run back to one of your towns (this is a big part of strategy, run away at the first sight of trouble).


One last, great option for fighting against the Warlock is to get the gun, preferably on a Stealth class. Burning mana greatly reduces the number of things that a Warlock can do. I personally like to hold off on buying a weapon until I see what the other classes are for this kind of reason. If you're going for the most mana burn possible, I think the numbers say that it is better to upgrade the gun first rather than the Hood on a Stealth class (not changing the amount of time you stealth and restealth, I wouldn't want to lose the bonus provided by constant stunning of one opponent), but you end up doing less normal damage that way.


I like playing against Warlocks, they're the one class that can mess you up in quite a few ways, you need to watch for several things, unlike the other classes with only a handful of tricks.

[Winterwind]

I see. Wow, that was extensive. Thank you.

[742]

i need to play someone good at melee, and i dont feel like sorting through 50 Bnet matchups to find one, anyone for a game in the next few hours, or at any point after 4 PM pacific?

[Winterwind]

If I wasn't at work, gladly. Since I am, that might be rather difficult though.

[742]

well, i dont need someone that good, just someone competent, where i wont feel like im kicking a puppy if i play at 100% health and have a chance to lose if i slip up. good enough to make me play seriously(though people who have a good probability of killing me are always preferred).

[Prince Gimli]

So, as I've mentioned a couple of times, there is this tool called KeyCraft, available here (the site's in German, but the Download button should be easy enough to spot ) that makes reconfigurating hotkeys much easier (usually, to reconfigurate your hotkeys, you'd have to edit your CustomKeys.txt file manually. In either case, you still have to turn on the usage of custom keys in your game options.).

Amongst others, it offers an option to instantly reconfigurate all hotkeys for all races in a way that mirrors this array of 4x3 buttons on the right side onto QWER ASDF ZXCV (or QWER ASDF YXCV, or whatever else your keyboard layout might be), for all units, buildings, abilities, upgrades etc. That's immensly more intuitive and quick to use than the default settings, and also means you can easily use hotkeys even for a race for which you'd usually not be familiar with the hotkeys at all. If you are playing melee mostly, I can't recommend it enough (yes, even if you are already used to the default hotkeys, because this array is still much more comfortable to use, and it's so intuitive you won't need long to adapt).

Is there a StarCraft version of this handy program?

Secondly, what does Cfg stand for? It sounds pretty cool from what I'm hearing in your posts.