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  1. - Top - End - #901
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    So, since it was requested a few times, here is the graph Bane made that contains our ratings for all the heroes. Mind that this is without context - behind each of these ratings there is a pretty lengthy review, often followed by discussion that sometimes went on for weeks.
    Two notes regarding this: I know the Earthshaker is listed twice; the first one is actually the Earthshaker's rating, the second one was supposed to be the Stone Giant. And also WW's totals at the very bottom mistakenly add up to 99, not 101 - that was a counting error on my part, but 2 heroes would not have made a difference either way, so we both figured it wasn't worth recounting.

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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    So, since it was requested a few times, here is the graph Bane made that contains our ratings for all the heroes. Mind that this is without context - behind each of these ratings there is a pretty lengthy review, often followed by discussion that sometimes went on for weeks.
    Hey looks like I was right about disagreeing entirely with the chart.

    Like, if you're saying Bounty Hunter is bad, I think I showed people their insides enough to prove otherwise.

    Stealth Assassin = 9.5
    Vengeful Spirit = 1

    Faith will have his revenge.
    Last edited by Inhuman Bot; 2010-12-03 at 09:25 PM.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Orange Zergling View Post
    Two notes regarding this: I know the Earthshaker is listed twice; the first one is actually the Earthshaker's rating, the second one was supposed to be the Stone Giant. And also WW's totals at the very bottom mistakenly add up to 99, not 101 - that was a counting error on my part, but 2 heroes would not have made a difference either way, so we both figured it wasn't worth recounting.
    Ah this make sense now lol. I was like, how the hell does ES get such a lot rating while satisfying pretty much all of the requirements ><
    Chart seems alright considering your criterias, and indeed like WW said some of the less "well designed heroes" are still fun to play. I would have disagreed with a few tho (Spectre, Doombringer, Shadow Fiend, Invoker, mostly) but it looks pretty much around what I would say for the most part. (Bane's rating, I had trouble with WW's and only saw the legend at the end xD)


    Btw Slaan, Bounty Hunter is indeed bad, that is, if you are considering that dota is a team game AoS and not a FPS. (getting high Kill-death ratios, he's good at that in pub stomps I guess)
    Last edited by Cynan Machae; 2010-12-03 at 09:47 PM.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anatharon View Post
    Like, if you're saying Bounty Hunter is bad, I think I showed people their insides enough to prove otherwise.
    How does that change anything? That chart was about design quality, not power, after all.

    The Bounty Hunter, for instance, received the rating it did because of the following reasons (unfortunately, I do not appear to have the PMs in which he was discussed anymore - I kept all of them, with the intent of putting them together into one big file at the end, but then I accidentally deleted a bunch of them - but I can tell you the reasons for its rating right away nonetheless):

    Spoiler
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    Shuriken Toss: Is basically just Storm Bolt with its stun removed. So, they took a generic skill that requires no special skill to use (it hits automatically, after all, it is not targeted at the ground and requires positioning or enemy movement anticipation to hit or anything like that), and made it more generic by removing what little special effects on top of damage it had. Also, it doesn't synergize in any way with what the hero does - yes, he is a hero killer, and this can allow him to finish things off, but it doesn't actually do anything for all of the other skills.

    Jinada: Critical Strike with a Slow effect added. Okay, that is not generic and gets a pass. Barely.

    Wind Walk: Is just the normal generic Wind Walk. Nothing new or creative added to this one. I guess it allows him to get into range to use Jinada more easily, so there is some rudimentary synergy there, but that's about it.

    Track: Sounds much like a skill designed specifically for snowballing purposes. The armour reduction is, for DotA levels, ridiculously low - that effect might almost as well be not there, because it's not like DotA heroes will really notice. And as for the movement speed increase, that is kinda nice... except this is not a support hero, in fact Wind Walk practically predestines him for working alone a lot (which today's game showed quite nicely, I think), and Jinada already helps him to keep up with enemies.

    So, what do we have here? One generic skill (Wind Walk), one generic skill that is also about as bland and boring as a skill can possibly get (Shuriken Toss), a passive that is about okay, but is only a passive (passives do not really require much input from the player - they get a pass if they change the gameplay of a hero considerably, which this one does, but active skills are almost always more interesting to use) and an ultimate that does little except potentially lead to snowballing. No synergy except for the very rudimentary one between Wind Walk and Jinada. Hence, low rating. He's by far not the worst hero on that map - I'm pretty sure I had considered giving him a Regicide rating, but apparently wasn't feeling too cheritable at that moment, quite unlike some other heroes who made me wonder if I should not introduce yet another even lower category for the worst kind of scum - but good design is something very different in my eyes.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anatharon View Post
    Hey looks like I was right about disagreeing entirely with the chart.

    Like, if you're saying Bounty Hunter is bad, I think I showed people their insides enough to prove otherwise.
    Power was essentially a non-issue, rather we focused entirely on the quality of its design.

    There were one or two instances where I rated a hero much lower because it had a specific combo of spells that I felt would be deal-breakingly unfun to play against because of their power (I think the Doom Bringer's Doom/Scorched Earth was the chief one), but after playing a few rounds (one today, two with Faith and Winterwind against bots a day or two ago) I've actually become convinced that they might still be unfun to play against but they wouldn't be nearly as powerful as I thought they would be (I was operating under the assumption that Doom would force a player to run away, then Scorched Earth would allow the Doom Bringer to catch up to them and kill them with complete impunity. Even though I never played as or against the Doom Bringer, after seeing how much damage gets regularly thrown around in DotA then I'm thinking that would not actually be the case).

    Quote Originally Posted by Anatharon View Post
    Stealth Assassin = 9.5
    Vengeful Spirit = 1

    Faith will have his revenge.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cynan Machae View Post
    Ah this make sense now lol. I was like, how the hell does ES get such a lot rating while satisfying pretty much all of the requirements ><
    Chart seems alright considering your criterias, and indeed like WW said some of the less "well designed heroes" are still fun to play. I would have disagreed with a few tho (Spectre, Doombringer, Shadow Fiend, Invoker, mostly) but it looks pretty much around what I would say for the most part. (Bane's rating, I had trouble with WW's and only saw the legend at the end xD)
    Alright; good to hear that we agree at least for the most part.

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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cynan Machae View Post
    Btw Slaan, Bounty Hunter is indeed bad, that is, if you are considering that dota is a team game AoS and not a FPS. (getting high Kill-death ratios, he's good at that in pub stomps I guess)
    You're calling yourself a pub?

    As for the lack of synergy, Windwalk doesn't provide a speed boost. Basically, you can combine two of any of his skills (Shuriken Toss has a short stun), and help you get up in the face of whomever you're going after, and then escape with either windwalk or Track's speed boost.
    Last edited by Inhuman Bot; 2010-12-04 at 12:04 AM.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    So, reminder, tomorrow is our next melee session. Hope to see you all there.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Bolding and underlinement by me.
    There's your contradiction right there. All of the points you mention here are subjective issues, not objective ones.
    Umm. Nitpicker.

    What I intended to say was that design should be dependent on those players (even if they're hypothetical or generalized ones). Objectivity is something I have less experience with, I don't think I've applied it at all, but design of electronics is one of my main classes.


    Thanks for being encouraging, I know I need as much of it as I need and I do appreciate it. I suppose I will supply what I actually think about more fundamental design, related to this topic. Or, well, you might not think it's relevant, but I do. My ranting professor likes to go on about this, so it's pretty heavily ingrained. Design heavily depends on the person buying it, a design is only good if it satisfies those needs economically. Bad design may flourish, he likes to cite examples in audio amplifiers, and says that it's due to marketing combined with ignorance of computers (I know a few fancy terms to watch out for. Also, don't buy anything with vacuum tubes, unless you're really into a wild steampunk lifestyle or something.).

    The personal factors you dismissed in favor of objectivity in that first post, are IMHO, the most important parts of design. Everyone would be happy to have all the features available, but the priorities of people are what cause sales. It's usually a trade-off between features or expense, some features may be mutually exclusive or at least very expensive. I think that this heavily applies to videogames because people can't all agree on what games they like best, the small differences appear important to them. People will commonly say that they want everything, but eh, "retro" games can be pretty popular, I think partially due to good design. And, although I'm not qualified to say much about it, marketing may be important. You'll actually want to flood the market with tricked-out, specialized things instead of trying to design for multipurpose, so yeah, more heroes are better, more games are better, if they satisfy.


    You guys say that Dusk doesn't know how to balance, but I think it could be just that balance isn't one of Dusk's design priorities. When I played with them, VZ people weren't very cruel to me, anyway, they were interesting in pushing their own limits. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by nooblade View Post
    You guys say that Dusk doesn't know how to balance, but I think it could be just that balance isn't one of Dusk's design priorities. When I played with them, VZ people weren't very cruel to me, anyway, they were interesting in pushing their own limits. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
    Pretty much! They seem legitimately passionate about their maps, to me.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Sorry, completely forgot to post the reminder here and send the PMs out yesterday.
    In any case, today is our custom map session. Hope to see you all there!

    EDIT (11th December): And reminder again, tomorrow is our next melee session. Hope to see you all there!
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Are there any good commentators for Warcraft 3?

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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    I haven't been keeping up with the scene all that much in the last few years, so I can't give a direct answer, but my advice would be to check whom Blizzard had comment WC3 on the last BlizzCon, and go with that person. It used to be Bunny, who made quite entertaining commentaries, but I don't know if she still does them or not.


    EDIT (16th December): And reminder, tomorrow is our next custom map session. Hope to see you all there!
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Since Friday is Christmas Eve and Sunday is the day after Christmas, I may or may not be able to come to the sessions on either day. I can try, but even if I can make it I likely won't be able to stay for long. Spending time with family and other general holiday stuff.

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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    I recently found the CD case with the CD Keys for both ROC and TFT (I broke my TFT disk a few years back) and attached them to my Blizzard account, so I might be joining you guys for some nostalgia on Friday.

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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by DCGFTW View Post
    I recently found the CD case with the CD Keys for both ROC and TFT (I broke my TFT disk a few years back) and attached them to my Blizzard account, so I might be joining you guys for some nostalgia on Friday.
    Oooh, welcome on board, then!

    Though I kinda suspect this particular Friday might not be the best timing for that, because I fear there will be more people not showing up to due it being, well, Christmas Eve. Like me, for instance.
    And next Friday is New Year's Eve, which is hardly better.

    Even so, reminder, tomorrow is our next session, though no guarantees of people showing up. Myself, I'm afraid I won't get to play either tomorrow or on Sunday, spending time with family, and after that (on the 28th) I'm off to visit an old friend for a week, and will likely not even get on GitP then (so, no reminders next week - sorry about that ).
    No reminder PMs today, either, kinda busy.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Oh, and of course - merry X-Mas, you all, may you all have rich bounty and joyful days!
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Anyway, tomorrow is our Friday custom game session. Hope to see everyone there.

    Faith and I have been experimenting with some new AoSs for a while now, trying to possibly find new ones for us to play, since it seems we can never agree on which ones are good or not (and the really bad ones are really funny ). Not too much success thus far, but we're trying.

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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    **** New Years, I'm playing Warcraft 3.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Just posting to let everyone know that I am going on a trip starting tomorrow, and I won't be back until the 17th so I will be missing the custom and melee sessions for the next two weeks. So I hope to see you guys then
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Thanks for the reminder, Bane.
    So, any report on that AoS-testing-program?

    Have a wonderful trip, Lego.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    There's still a thread for this? How old is this game exactly?

    (Played it just yesterday.)
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    There's still a thread for this? How old is this game exactly?
    There's been one for the last three years, without any intermissions. Pretty much all of the time on the first page, too, since we keep posting here all the time (if not any more often, then twice a week as reminder for our weekly sessions, which have been going on for the last three years as well).

    WC3 is from '02, the expansion from '03. But if you think that's old, consider that until just about a month ago, there was a parallel StarCraft 1 group meeting weekly, organized just like this one, and SC1 was released in '98. We only disbanded it now because pretty much everyone had switched to SC2 and the group died, but at times we had two dozen participants at once there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    (Played it just yesterday.)
    Yay!
    Well, if you are interested in joining us, we meet every Friday and Sunday at 4 PM EST(GMT-5) (which translates to 22:00 for you and me), on USEast(Azeroth), in the channel op GitP. And we're always happy about new blood.
    Last edited by Winterwind; 2011-01-05 at 08:50 AM.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    That's actually a time slot that works.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Yay!
    In that case, welcome, and may you have a comfortable stay. Just don't let the bunny devour you.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Welcome aboard, Yora.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    So, any report on that AoS-testing-program?
    We tested probably about a dozen different maps together and we (or, rather, I; I can't speak for Faith's opinions) only found probably 2 or 3 that were bearable, and even then they had some rather huge flaws.

    The stand-outs for me were:

    Age of Eternal Strife - Faith disconnected every time we tried to play this, but I tried it out in singleplayer and it seemed decent enough (It's also updated several times since we tried, so maybe it's been fixed). It looks like it would be one of those AoSs that does nothing but directly port melee spells, but once you actually pick a hero you find out that even skills named after melee skills have had their functions radically changed - there's a skill called Inner Fire that's an AoEDoT rather than a buff, for instance. The skills were original, the hero design was alright (maybe not as good as I'd like, but I've been spoiled) and the item descriptions are pretty funny at times. Can't say anything about the balance, though, having played it only in singleplayer.

    Titans of War - This map aims to fuse an AoS with Castle Fight, basically. It can be entertaining for a while, but it quickly sets in that both the AoS and Castle Fight elements are dumbed-down because of the presence of the other - the heroes are very bland and use a lot of skills ported from melee and the tech trees basically consist of 5 buildings which progress in a hierarchy where higher tech is almost always just flat out better than lower tech. It also has these really annoying tornadoes all over the place that move around randomly and slow down units inside of them; I'll never understand their purpose. Probably the biggest nail in its coffin, though, is the total lack of balance - the Machine race has a unit called the Iron Boy that is Mechanical, Magic Immune and has Chaos damage and Divine armor (5% from all non-Chaos sources), for instance, and it's exactly as invincible as it sounds. The game also has too many anti-snowballing measures - it has a secondary resource based purely on killing blows you've dealt, so the team that's on the defensive will be getting way more of it than the offensive team, among other things. Overall, I didn't exactly like it.

    Eternity of Azjol-Nerub - This one is probably my favorite of the bunch that we played together. It has relatively common instances of imbalance and poor design, but it also has some original and/or downright cool ideas (such as a Forgotten One hero that doesn't have a normal attack, but instead has tentacles pop out of the ground and attack things at regular intervals). It doesn't do anything to subvert the typical AoS gameplay in any way, and is nowhere near the best AoS I've ever played but you can do a hell of a lot worse than this map. The items need some serious work, though - some of them are too powerful and too cheap and others are too weak and too expensive.

    Yes, these three were the best that we played. Don't try to think too much of the really, really bad ones.

    All that being said, I still prefer Desert of Exile and Stand of the Elves to all of these, but variety is variety.

    And, if I may toot my own horn for a moment, I've actually been pretty hard at work on the new version of The Fifth Crusade - I have no estimate for when it will be ready, but in my opinion it's probably the best and biggest update yet.
    Last edited by The Orange Zergling; 2011-01-05 at 04:33 PM.

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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Orange Zergling View Post
    We tested probably about a dozen different maps together and we (or, rather, I; I can't speak for Faith's opinions) only found probably 2 or 3 that were bearable, and even then they had some rather huge flaws.
    A dozen? Wow, that's some dedication. I'm impressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Orange Zergling View Post
    Yes, these three were the best that we played. Don't try to think too much of the really, really bad ones.
    Though there is something to be said about the comedic factor of bad maps *pokes at Imba Warz*.

    In any case, judging by your descriptions, Age of Eternal Strife sounds like it might be pretty good (at least, better than the other two) if they managed to fix that crashing bug.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Orange Zergling View Post
    And, if I may toot my own horn for a moment, I've actually been pretty hard at work on the new version of The Fifth Crusade - I have no estimate for when it will be ready, but in my opinion it's probably the best and biggest update yet.
    Ooooh. Sounds awesome.


    Reminder, tomorrow is our next custom map session. I hope to see you all there.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Is there anything I have to prepare, except having Frozen Throne installed and patched? Like downloading user created maps or something?
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Nah, no need; you can just download them when joining the game.
    Just remember to change your BattleNet gateway to Azeroth before logging on.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Already tried out how that works yesterday. No problems with that.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    A dozen? Wow, that's some dedication. I'm impressed.
    Well, Faith kept pointing me towards maps on the Hive that had all of the warning signs of a bad map (incomprehensible grammar, promising to have more of something than DotA, promising that all heroes have "at least one triggered spell" and so forth) and, sure enough, basically all of them were about as good as expected, so we tried the next one to cleanse the palette, and...

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Though there is something to be said about the comedic factor of bad maps *pokes at Imba Warz*.
    That's certainly true.
    We did find ones that were as poorly balanced and/or designed as Imba Wars, though, but weren't jokes and were being completely serious. <.<

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    In any case, judging by your descriptions, Age of Eternal Strife sounds like it might be pretty good (at least, better than the other two) if they managed to fix that crashing bug.
    That would probably be my preferred choice as well, actually. Eternity was decent, but AoES looked even better (though singleplayer testing is always wonky, of course).

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