GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

[Winterwind]

Is there a StarCraft version of this handy program?

None that I know of, though I have heard such things exist (however, they would require to hack StarCraft. In WarCraft, it merely simplifies something one could do anyway, as WarCraft supports custom keys; in StarCraft, there is no such functionality per default.)

Secondly, what does Cfg stand for? It sounds pretty cool from what I'm hearing in your posts.

Conquest for Glory, in my opinion one of the best custom maps out there (though this opinion is quite contrary to that of a fair amount of our members).

[nooblade]

Did I just hear an excuse to rant about how awesome this game is?

But I won't, I've been making too many long posts about it lately. Might as well stick them together and call it a guide.

[Bunny of Faith]

Did I just hear an excuse to rant about how awesome this game is?

But I won't, I've been making too many long posts about it lately. Might as well stick them together and call it a guide.

Do it! Since somebody should get around to it. Or at least explain what is said in the Quests/F9 when compiling your earlier posts.

[u-gotNOgame]

Conquest for Glory, in my opinion one of the best custom maps out there (though this opinion is quite contrary to that of a fair amount of our members).

Yeah, I've been finding its a better then I originally thought. We do almost daily pubstomps if you want to join us.

Also, about the warlock, I find that in the hands of a good player it can he can be a handfull, but against some of the public players... hes fresh meat.

-UGNG

[nooblade]

I wouldn't want to directly copy from the game's guide. You could look at it anytime if you have a copy of Warcraft 3, the game can run in Single Player and we use the version straight from Epicwar (6.9? The latest.). There is a ton of information about towns and the combat system and all of it is important to know (though I suspect that most of the group either hasn't read it or has forgotten about it).


I guess I'd go over the "Solid Advice" section. This is how you win right here.

1) Stay together.

I think most players start to understand this quickly, especially in our group. Unlike other AoS maps, enemy heroes are easy to get to and also are a delectable source of income and experience.

2) Attack undefended towns.

You can outlevel the enemy group by killing them (hard) or by killing town guards (easy). The guide claims that the exp and money you get for killing guards outweighs the risk of being caught vulnerable. I'd guess that killing guards is worth having one dead ally for a moment, but things start to hurt too much when they kill your entire team. It suggests using a Crystal Ball to find undefended towns, but I'd rather use that item to watch my back, or maybe a flare instead.

3) Kill the cleric first when attacking enemy towns to prevent enemy heroes from spawning on top of you.

This is huge and I rarely see other people doing it. A hero spawns at full health, with almost half mana, and regenerates mana quickly while the cleric is still alive. The cleric is just too vulnerable to leave alive.

4) Time your abilities appropriately. Save your Snare to break a Combo, save your Bubble to shrug off a Snare, and save your Combo to finish off a fleeing enemy.

I wouldn't always go about it like this, sometimes you can get away with a Combo or a Snare due to circumstances (melee Combos are difficult to get off on a running enemy, someone may have already used their Snare), but some of us would do better by saving out abilities a bit. This point of advice isn't suited for the Paladin or Druid because their "Combos" don't deal damage.


The guide also contains information about how the classes are constructed and how quickly the army is trained based on how many towns you control. And then there are mini-guides for each class, with item options (that I sometimes don't like) and counters for each. It's really too much stuff to copy...

I might expand on some of the guides, but sometimes I'm not particularly opinionated one a hero, and for others I will admit I don't know how to play effectively (I'm looking at you, Dark Stalker).

[Copper8642]

One day until the first GitP Custom meet-up for me. Wooooooo!

[Bunny of Faith]

For anyone fancying a go of some crazy, foreign AoS that me and Ein have been playing a little, I uploaded it to epicwar!

[Winterwind]

So, reminder: Tomorrow is our next custom map session. I hope to see you all there.

[nooblade]

I don't see why you two like playing imbawars so much.

By figuring out all the heroes and items, you're going to make it a lot less fun for anyone you try to lure into playing it thereafter. Anyone desiring to experience the same thing as you are right now will have to play without you.

[u-gotNOgame]

It should be clarified that a "Combo" is a damage dealing attack that has a casting time and is interupptable. A "Snare" is a stun or hold spell that intterupts channeling and a "Bubble" is something that protects you from damage or lets you shrug off a negative buff or some damage.

Also, I'll be late so save some fun for me!

-UGNG

[nooblade]

Heh, still not right.

The Druid and Paladin Combos do not deal damage, most Snares only cause a 50% slower movement rate for enemies (and some don't impede their movement at all), and some Bubbles can be cast on other heroes.

[Marek]

Conquest for Glory, in my opinion one of the best custom maps out there (though this opinion is quite contrary to that of a fair amount of our members).

Me being one of them, since I stick with my Clan, but thats besides the point <_<

Oh yeah, after trying out the Druid, I do not understand the so-called "uselessness" of the class. Sure, it makes you choose one way to go, either Tanking or DPS, but if you specialize in whatever you choose things generally go well for you. Blade can corroborate this, we worked quite well together.

I won't be here for either the Custom group on Friday or the Melee group on Sunday, I've made plans for those days (specifically, my brother is getting married and I'm his Best-Man).

Oh, and for those who don't know, this is Vinnam.

[nooblade]

People were asking me about what weapons to get, so I'll make a post about those that would help you decide for yourselves.

For weapons in general, you won't want more than one of each weapon that gives a debuff on your team. I like saving the increased attack speed weapons for the stealth heroes and the damage weapons for the melee heroes, but there are some exceptions. The mana cost of the Fire or Ice Staves make them exclusive to the casters (it also helps that those classes attack a bit more slowly), but anyone can pick up an Earth or Light Staff if the boost is worth it. Some of them are great counters for an enemy class ability and others compensate for your own hero disadvantages.

Weapons are a huge investment so wait until you see the enemy heroes to pick one. You don't want to lose money by selling one.

For the particulars:

-Claws are important for the Dark Stalker because he damages himself with Souleater and takes extra damage with Blood Weapon, he can easily overtax the healer.

It's tempting to grab these for the survivability, but it only pays off if you're actually damaged. This can occur either if your opponent doesn't know how to focus properly or you are the one being focused. You'll need to be healed or run away in the second case anyway. It isn't a good weapon for a tank, just more reason to ignore him until his support is dead or fleeing.

-Spears are just great to have around. The -armor benefits the entire team when focusing on one target. I know it stacks with at least the Dragoon's ability to lower armor, probably the Druid's too. Definitely the most offensive of the weapons, get it on someone if you can survive in combat but lack in damage.

-Axes are the bane of all stealth classes. It deals damage over three seconds and any form of damage prevents a stealth hero from going into hiding. I'm not sure if the healing prevention stacks with the Warrior's Snare, but if it does, you would prevent 90% of any healing from getting through and cause damage over time. Very nasty for taking out support enemies, but the Snare can be Bubbled (along with the weapon effect, but that is applied quickly), so maybe wait until those are used up by your enemy.

-Hammers are one of my least favorite weapons, very unspectacular, but I have to admit that it has great use. Slowing enemies who are going for your support allies would be devastating for them, especially if they require melee range and your support works at a distance. It's not a huge debuff (not a Snare) and can be reapplied easily as well, so they can't just Bubble out. It helps against Stealth too, but they'll learn how to run, this is why it's great on the Paladin, he can Hammer of Justice them and keep them down with this Hammer after the stun wears off.

It is a very defensive weapon, but it's good overall team defense unlike the Claws. The main disadvantage is that any class taking it is likely melee. I like the Ice Staff more for the extra slow, but the mana used is very demanding.

-Katanas have a chance to blind an enemy, which causes all of their normal attacks to miss for the next 3, 5, or 7 seconds (depends on upgrade). You need a stealth hero to get this debuff on anyone in a pinch, but it also works well on an unstealthy class if you just want some extra protection from a particular enemy. It can be dispelled with a Bubble but that would be a waste imho.

I like putting it on the Rogue, just because they already do a ton of damage with the chance to get a critical hit and their superfast Combo, but noone really needs it. It's great for the Ninja because attacking is one of the main ways that you figure out which image is real and which are fake (assuming they all attack the same enemy), but the Katana denies that strategy for a while after coming out of stealth. The Dragoon is also capable of using it in a pinch for defense because he has more agility and thus faster attack speed (you could get gloves with him too).

-Swords are decent. You can use them to make a stealth build that completely ignores the gloves (more damaging Hunter too). But I like the other effects more. I don't like putting Swords on Strength heroes because the bonus damage is spread out more (easier to heal or flee). I wouldn't use it without the Hood. It's great for a Ninja who wants to deal more damage.

-Knives are my least favorite. You already stun coming out of stealth and the bonuses to attack speed from a Hood wear out as soon as that original stun wears off. You would use Knives in a stealth build that focused more on the attacks from behind, upgrading the Knife and the Gloves at the expense of the Hood and the Boots. This kind of stealth hero stays in melee longer though, so expect trouble with their allies. I wouldn't want to put a Knife on a Hunter, getting Boots for her would be more fun if you want to stun more.

A Vamprie would be the best class for this style of playing, I think. With the skill that automatically moves you behind enemies, Gloves will be more desirable anyway. Plus you have a great Bubble that gives some spell immunity and an enemy slowing effect to use when all those enemy heroes catch up to you. I think Rogues would actually do worse with the Knife because they'll want to steal from enemy heroes and the Boots really help there, but I guess you'll go for the critical-dodge-stealth passive skill anyway. I'm not sure, but I think the extra damage from Gloves doesn't work with the Rogue's critical ability.

-Guns are good for disabling support heroes without having to kill them. They're great versus Warlocks, Priests, Druids, Paladins, and even Dragoons. Mages tend to have too much mana to burn to actually disable anything he can do, if he starts at full. And with Evocation, it would be silly if a Mage doesn't start at full. I forget at the moment whether this mana burn causes hp damage too, but that would be nice against Mages.

Works great with the Hood on sneaky types, but I guess it also works to bunker down anywhere and outgun the enemy.

-Earth Staves aren't too useful imho. I think it's only really good on the Druid or maybe the Mage. Druids in Bear form get some mana back when they get hit, and Mages just have a ton of mana to begin with, so things work out for them. I'd certainly put it on a tanky Druid and hesitantly put it on a Mage who's getting plinked down. Other heroes have low enough mana and/or enough mana usage (especially Priests) that I think they would benefit more from Gauntlets. The Robe item is better if you're constantly lacking in mana.

-Fire Staves are great for Priests, Mages, or Warlocks who want to do extra damage. Other classes are lacking in the mana department. The Druid could pull it off (he gets less intelligence than other casters), but has other, more preferable dps options. Priests in particular are cutting close on their mana when they use this item, they'll need Robes and/or a Ring item for support while using it, but Mages seem to do just fine with a Fire Staff only. I'd focus on Heal and Shield if I get the Fire Staff, probably more Shield as it's the skill that actually saves on mana (high levels of heal just work faster), you'll want to spend as much time possible using the Staff. If a Warlock gets a Fire Staff, he needs to use it. It's entirely possible for a Warlock to switch between Life Drain and Health Funnel during combat if he isn't Snared (who wouldn't ignore him? Even with a Fire Staff?), which would be a waste for this weapon. Get gear for mana regeneration depending on how much you want to use it.

-Ice Staves are basically for Mages only. Strength heroes would do better with the Hammer and Agility heroes would do better by getting Boots and exploiting the sneaky side of the game. If another caster class were to get this Staff, they wouldn't want to fully upgrade it for fear of losing all their mana in a few moments. Priests are already gimped on mana and an Ice Staff is a third more the mana cost of a Fire Staff. I don't doubt that it's possible to have a class other than Mage use it, but it's dangerous because of the equipment trade you'll make for mana regeneration, and because enemies will very much want to focus on the maxed Ice Staff hero (it's already a weak caster, and the Ice Staff alone is annoying enough in addition to the other skills).

But a fully upgraded Ice Staff is devastating in the hands of a Mage. You could prevent the enemy team from focusing on a support hero (probably the Mage), or prevent an enemy Stealth hero from sneaking away again. I'd like to test sometime if adding a -50% movespeed snare on top prevents them from moving, I don't know what the minimum movement speed is in CfG (I think editors can change it in the global constants). I wouldn't get Arcane Power first as the mana cost is prohibitive even with a Mage, but with it maxed you could do about as much damage as a Shadow Priest with a Fire Staff.

A Warlock may get a max upgraded Ice Staff, but this is where you laugh and shoot him with the Gun.

-Light Staves are for classes that have a healing ability. This means Priests, Druids, Paladins, Warlocks, and Dragoons only. More than the others, this one is the weapon I don't know exactly when to use. It's great if you're going to be healing or using Combos more than attacking much, which is an option for Priests and Warlocks (less so for Warlocks). Otherwise I don't think it's really worth it as a second weapon unless you're really late in the game, or it's possible that this is the mana regeneration option you want to use for putting a different staff on someone.

I suppose you could make a Dragoon that uses skills more than normal attacks, but losing the bonus from a real weapon hurts. The other two classes don't have damaging Combos, which hurts if they want to pick up a Light staff. It's already really easy to Snare a Paladin's Holy Light, don't encourage them by buying the Light Staff.


I think my typing is getting better with the injured finger.

Family wants to do silly stuff. If I'm around, it will be sporadic.

[Inhuman Bot]

I'm going to be going to a camp until next friday, and then (probably) traveling with my family for awhile longer. See you all later.

[Winterwind]

Have fun, Slaan.

Reminder: Tomorrow is our next melee session. Hope to see you there.

[u-gotNOgame]

I won't be there tommorow which means that I'll have missed both sessions this week. Anyways hope to see you next week, or on d2.

@noob: I agree with most of that, I never really found the earth and light staffs that usefull

-UGNG

[Winterwind]

Reminder: Tomorrow is our next custom map session. Hope to see you there.

[Copper8642]

Yessir... except I have work... damn.... sorry, won't be there.

[Winterwind]

And reminder again: Tomorrow is our next melee session.
I might end up being late, friends remarked something about kidnapping me or so.

[Winterwind]

And reminder once more: Tomorrow is our next custom map session. I hope to see you there.

[Copper8642]

Got work again. I'll probably be missing the majority of these from now on. But I hope to have some Fridays off in the future. So I'll play with you guys again eventually.

[The Orange Zergling]

Due to RL circumstances I might be slightly late to the session this Sunday - precisely how late I'm not sure but it probably won't be more than an hour or so.

Also, Winterwind, you need to get around to updating Pandarena.

[u-gotNOgame]

I'm headed off to a summer camp from today until next saturday. So I will be missing todays session next weeks custom session, and all the days on which we might have a casual encounter. So, good hunting, take care, and have fun.

-UGNG

[Inhuman Bot]

So with the people online being a grand total of me...

Get onto WC!

[SirSigfried]

I'm online now if anyone wants to join me... then good.

[Inhuman Bot]

Well, Winter doesn't seem to be around..

So, reminder: Tomorrow is our next custom map session. I hope to see you all there.

V: Didn't come across rude to me.

[The Orange Zergling]

Actually, I just talked to him about an hour ago, I assume he just hasn't gotten around to the reminders yet.

EDIT: On reflection that came across as a little rude; my apologies. I merely said that so that people would not assume that he'd be absent and then not come.

---

So I currently have a team-oriented melee map in production; mechanically, it's ready, but it still needs some tweaks here and there plus some ambient stuff like doodads and with luck it will be ready next week, though probably not THIS Sunday.

[Winterwind]

Yes, I am here; sorry, was busy so far and didn't get around to posting the reminder indeed. But thanks for doing that anyway, Slaan.

Also, looking forward to it, Bane. Any changes since we tested it?

[The Orange Zergling]

Yep, added more trees to the starting areas and I'm starting to add aesthetic doodads, mostly on the cliffs but also in some of the wider open areas to both make them more interesting in combat and more appealing to look at. Also looking into why some creeps didn't drop items; I think I gave them item tables that could sometimes give items that didn't exist (so nothing would drop). Also fixed their acquisition range.

[Inhuman Bot]

......Where is everyone?

I don't belive anyone aside from Bane, myself, and 742 were there at the peak.

Also, am I the only one amused by this threads post count VS it's view count?