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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaanesh View Post
    ......Where is everyone?

    I don't belive anyone aside from Bane, myself, and 742 were there at the peak.
    Yeah, sorry; I was totally exhausted when I arrived home yesterday; I pretty much plunged into my bed and fell asleep instantly. Definitely not fit enough for playing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaanesh View Post
    Also, am I the only one amused by this threads post count VS it's view count?
    What about it? The ratio seems pretty normal for the threads in this forum...
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Well, I just found out that I broke a part of my hand pretty seriously; enough to have surgery. I probably won't be able to play, but I may get on to watch you guys play.
    Thanks goes to Vampire Pumpkin for my awesome avatar!

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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Aye, this forum seems to have a different Post:View ratio than the other forums... at least, from what I remember, admittedly I haven't really payed attention until you brought it up.

    Ow, that sucks TFT.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Catseye2121 View Post
    Well, I just found out that I broke a part of my hand pretty seriously; enough to have surgery. I probably won't be able to play, but I may get on to watch you guys play.
    That sucks, hope to see you on though.
    I'm back, so i'll probably be looking to re-sharpen my skills that were dulled by more then a week away from my computer.

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  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Catseye2121 View Post
    Well, I just found out that I broke a part of my hand pretty seriously; enough to have surgery. I probably won't be able to play, but I may get on to watch you guys play.
    Ouch, saddened to hear that, TFT.

    Get better soon.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Yeah, sorry; I was totally exhausted when I arrived home yesterday; I pretty much plunged into my bed and fell asleep instantly. Definitely not fit enough for playing.
    .

    I'd say if we 1v1'd it'd be equal.

    For the post count vs thread veiws, I hadn't actually looked at other thread views, and just glanced at that before I posted.

    Also, TFT, it's unfortuneate to hear that, but I'm curious.. How did you break your hand that badly and not realize you had until later? >>
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  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Injuries hurt.

    Talking about them with people has been interesting. Many people had stories, at least something like, "my relative had such and such happen", if not a horrible disfiguring injury of their own to tell the tale of. Plenty of guys in the engineering department had a good sized chunk of flesh taken off by a powered cutting device. One of them used superglue to put his thumb back together. Another more serious handyman-type had to have a operation that flipped his knuckle to the other side of the finger to get it back on, and now can bend it in a funny direction. You can barely tell if someone had a cutting accident or not (unless they point it out) because doctors are capable of sewing the fleshy bits back on. That wasn't possible for me but I still feel really lucky. It would've been worse if I didn't get the rest of my hand out of the way.

    Anyway, broken bones sound even worse (particularly the twisty or shattering varieties (rather than the simple snaps or cracks?)). With an amputation-like injury, you don't get any pain sensation from nerves that aren't there. The swelling feeling I got while everything was healing was the most trouble I had through the whole thing. Well, that and having school at the same time.


    Oh, and I'll be going on vacation this weekend.


    Also, out of curiosity, what did everyone think were the bad parts of Conquest for Glory?
    Last edited by nooblade; 2009-07-21 at 07:38 PM.

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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    I feel uninitiated; I've never broken any bones and only once had stitches in my life (on my tongue) and my most serious hospitalization was when I was dehydrated as a very small child.

    ---

    (On CfG) I don't particularly wish to get into another long-winded debate about this, but I find the game to be incredibly frustrating to play, with tannish or without and whether I lose or win. Without exception I end the game angrier than I went into it and that is the complete antithesis of what a game should be. I started out with an open mind about it but after a while a pattern developed and I pretty much know how it'll turn out for me now.

    On the subject of why, I'm not 100% sure; there are certainly gameplay mechanics that I dislike (rock-paper-scissors, characters that revolve around stunlocks and very heavy reliance on items are the ones that come to mind off of the top of my head) not to mention a few bugs (items that don't work) but it does nail a couple principles like requiring teamwork and for the most part balance. Despite any of its strong suits I find myself completely unable to extract fun from the game; if other people do, then great, but I, personally, cannot.

    Enjoy your vacation, though.
    Last edited by The Orange Zergling; 2009-07-21 at 07:52 PM.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Don't get initiated.
    ... Though tongue stitches are news to me and might count for something.



    Not looking for a debate on CfG, but I hope you agree that it's an interesting game to look at. Particularly when thinking about how it could be balanced or improved (or salvaged?). It's clear that most people are frustrated and think the game needs some kind of improvements or fundamental changes. What's not clear is the adjustments to make, or whether people's suggestions would actually help or if they just "sound good". Like how adding more towns or neutral creeps might cause the game to turn into a farming competition or something.

    Here's an engineering type of problem that won't easily be fixed.

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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    I don't remember any of it but apparently as a small child I was a habitual tongue-chewer and one day I just bit too hard. Thankfully the tongue is one of the body's faster healing organs so the ordeal was over relatively quickly as far as injuries go. I still have a scar, though.

    ---

    I agree somewhat, though I would find it much more interesting if I could open the map and look at some of the spell codes.

    I haven't given a whole lot of thought as to what would make the game better, to be honest. The two things you gave as an example, though, would definitely not work, as they would make running around too much of a chore and would take the focus away from the game's objective, respectively. Do you know if the guy is still around or if it's one of those long-abandoned projects?
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  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    The latest map on epicwar was put up like a year and a half ago. I guess that's pretty abandoned in the Warcraft 3 world.

    But, imho, it would be better to start fresh anyway. The guide says that only a handful of abilities are edited in (mostly the dragoon class). Some things are just melee Warcraft 3 abilities with an extra bonus added on (rejuvenation removes stun -- I think).

    As much as I like CfG, I wouldn't want to remake it. Or maybe after playing it a bunch, I'm getting a little tired of its quirkiness.


    Actually, now that my finger is better, maybe I'll want to figure out Spellcast Arena when I get back from this trip. Or I'm also fine with just playing more games.


    Preparations are commencing, I'll be back Monday.
    Last edited by nooblade; 2009-07-21 at 10:49 PM.

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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Yeah, unless the author is still around but has been working on other maps that sounds pretty dead to me.

    ---

    Due to RL events (a rehearsal and recital for my taiko group, respectively) I will have to leave early on Friday and will be absent completely on Sunday.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Hmmm... I think this might be an interesting debate.
    If I was to remake CfG (hypothetically speaking, though if I should ever finish Pandarena - yeah, like that's going to happen - I might give it some actual consideration), the first thing I'd want to make sure would be it doesn't snowball too hard. Because that is one problem the map currently has.
    Now - how could one, in AoS/CfG-type maps, reward players for playing well, but prevent the game from snowballing? Those are two fundamentally opposed principles, and I think much could be won for map design in general if we can find some way to bring them together...


    Also, reminder: Tomorrow is our next custom map session. Looking forward to it.



    Quote Originally Posted by The Orange Zergling View Post
    Due to RL events (a rehearsal and recital for my taiko group, respectively) I will have to leave early on Friday and will be absent completely on Sunday.
    While it's a pity we'll miss out on you, wow, cool! I had no idea you were doing something like that!
    Last edited by Winterwind; 2009-07-23 at 05:48 AM.
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  14. - Top - End - #134

    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Now - how could one, in AoS/CfG-type maps, reward players for playing well, but prevent the game from snowballing? Those are two fundamentally opposed principles, and I think much could be won for map design in general if we can find some way to bring them together...
    There's two ways.

    -One is upkeeps of some sort. The stronger you are compared with your oponent, the less gold and/or experience you receive, up to the point where killing a much weacker player hardly nets you anything.


    -The other is rewarding the other players for standing in front of the snowball. For example in dota if you start a "killing spree" , whoever frags you get bonus gold for that. The higher your number of kills in a row, the more gold the guy who frags you will receive.


    Then there's the vulnerability aproach, altough it's steping more outside of AoS. Heros don't gain more life as they level up. They may gain more armor, evasion, and definetely get better attacks as they level up, but if they turn their guard down, the weacker player should be able to kill them fairly quickly despite the level diference. This is a more radical aproach of course. You would need to do something about the strenght stat first of all(perhaps greatly increase life regen?)
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2009-07-23 at 12:21 PM.

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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    While it's a pity we'll miss out on you, wow, cool! I had no idea you were doing something like that!
    I wish I didn't have to perform, though...

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    -One is upkeeps of some sort. The stronger you are compared with your oponent, the less gold and/or experience you receive, up to the point where killing a much weacker player hardly nets you anything.
    Of the two ideas you put forward I think this one is probably best; while the killing spree reward gives you more in return for killing an enemy it does not help you kill them in the first place and thus catch up to them. To put it metaphorically, instead of providing you a stool to stand on to reach a shelf, it just puts a pot of gold on the shelf but you still can't reach it.

    Maybe this one is just personal preference, but I would also make the items far less powerful - still helpful but no longer crucial, maybe in line with Desert of Exile's items. Currently certain classes are so reliant on a specific item load-out that they can't survive without it and the entire point of items - providing a strategic choice of what to pick for a given situation - is rendered moot because there is no reason to pick anything other than this set. Of course this would also require a moderate redesign of some classes, but then I maintain that a game like this should be designed and balanced around the heroes interacting with each other with their spells and traits, not with the items they pick.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Orange Zergling View Post
    Of course this would also require a moderate redesign of some classes, but then I maintain that a game like this should be designed and balanced around the heroes interacting with each other with their spells and traits, not with the items they pick.
    You can get this easily by implementing Warcraft's original system of most items you get being random.

    Sure there's the ocasional shop that sells basic supplies like weack potions, teleport scrolls and perhaps one or two nonstacking orbs.

    But the really good stuff spawns at random from special creeps. You want Staff/Sword X? Then go kill that ogre magi!

    Or heck, remove items all togheter.

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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    I don't think they should be removed altogether or made completely random, I just think that they should be less important than the abilities that you pick and that there should be a reason to pick different sets from time to time.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Orange Zergling View Post
    I don't think they should be removed altogether or made completely random, I just think that they should be less important than the abilities that you pick and that there should be a reason to pick different sets from time to time.
    Well, this reminds me of an AoS I played once wich had a very interesting design idea.

    Every ability is based to one or more of your scores.


    You see, in dota at least abilities only go as far as 4 rancks. By level 7 one of your abilities will be maximized. By level 16 all will be. By level 25 heros are doing more damage by simply attacking than with their nukes.

    Items, however, go a lot deeper. There are cheap items, and then there are super expensive items that you can only afford late game, like assault, or a maximized daggon.

    But, if your abilities, instead of a fixed damage, continue improving as you level up, it makes them stay relevant at higher levels.


    However, bear in mind, if you have fixed items, well, people will end up finding optimal item builds just like they find optimal ability builds. It's inevitable when you take out the randomness.

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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Well, naturally, but in CfG, take the Rogue for example. There is no reason whatsoever to pick anything except for the designated Stealth class items and a Spear. You may want to switch out the Spear for something depending on situation, but that's it. It's not that after calculated scientific analysis this build proved to do 2.4% more DPS than this other build but rather that it is the only build that makes sense at all and there is literally no reason to pick anything else. It's not that it's the 'optimal build', it's that it's the ONLY build.
    Last edited by The Orange Zergling; 2009-07-23 at 01:56 PM.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Yeah that was pretty much awfull design. In CfG your gear is almost auto-selected, except if you're a druid, and even then...

    But that's the extreme case. I don't remember any other mod where the "correct" choice of gear was so automatic.

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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    game design? yay!

    i would also like to point out that theres a third way to prevent, or at least slow the snowball: share gold and EXP between teams(and make sure dead players are included!). i know it sounds stupid, but since the primary objective has to do with controlling territory not gaining levels or items it still allows for a team to establish and hold a lead, while the other team is still able to kick a decent amount of butt, assuming that they can fix whatever teamwork failure or skill gap that caused the other team to start winning in the first place.
    a sub-whatsitcalled of this would be to distribute gold and EXP to both the killing hero and the killed hero. so if i stab the wizard in the back, its true, i get money to buy a sharper dagger, but he gets money to buy either a cooler staff or some armor, so that doesnt happen again.

    the first thing i would do is make sure you make every hero like the melee warden, where you want to max out every ability first. dont give them any trash spells, and at the absolute most, give them one ability that greatly improves at least one of their others. this will lead to having at least two different builds for each character

    then i might find a way to make the different items useful for different situations, even within the same hero. the gun burning mana is a good start, but make the weapons less about the attack speed/damage bonuses and more about the special modifiers. this will lead to a greater variety of choices, but it will be very difficult to balance.

    and yes, making all spells stat based, at least in part would be a positive, it also keeps nuke-based characters from falling behind so much late game. so instead of 150/250/375 an ability would do 100+AGI/200+AGI/300+AGI or (3xagi)/(5xagi)/(7xagi). this would make players try to stick to more stat-based items, so while the spear might be really cool, another +10 to agility might be just as worth it.
    if you do this, make sure to modify how the stats work to prevent STR characters from becoming unkillable gods, and AGI characters from being able to achieve stunlock with a 1% bash and 99% damage reduction. a huge nerf to AGI attack speed would be too much, but something small and perhaps removal of AGI to armor maybe AGI to move speed instead, since IIRC that option is there and it maxes out pretty quick. its also good incentive for non-AGI characters to still get AGI and AGI items.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Rant time!

    In today's WC 3 tournament, I'd won 3 games, won 2 by the opponent leaving, and lost 2. Not bad.

    Then I noticed something odd. My tournament record was 0-7-0.

    I played another game, opponent left. New record: 0-8-0.


    So for no reason, I've been racking up loses instead of wins. WHAT. THAT. HELL.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Hmmm, interesting concept - rather than rewarding players for kills with gold and experience, making the reward of a purely strategic nature - the fact the hero is dead and needs some time to respawn and reach the front line, while the winning hero is there and can push the front further back/conquer towns could well be enough.

    Giving both heroes gold and XP would be one way, a different, maybe more natural way would be to simply not give any gold and XP for hero kills at all.

    As long as we are talking about a CfG-type map, I could also imagine that, rather than contributing points to a nation's level - which can hardly be ever caught up again by a losing team - towns could generate lumber that would be distributed amongst all players. This lumber could then be used to buy creeps to be sent in a singular wave or to fortify defences of towns, in a way similar to DoE - providing the team with a temporary strategic advantage, but nothing permanent (as the creeps sent in the attack could still be defeated and would not respawn). That should snowball a lot less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaanesh View Post
    So for no reason, I've been racking up loses instead of wins. WHAT. THAT. HELL.
    ...huh. That's... weird.
    Might try addressing Blizzard about that. I'm sure they'd like to know about such bugs.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Hmmm, interesting concept - rather than rewarding players for kills with gold and experience, making the reward of a purely strategic nature - the fact the hero is dead and needs some time to respawn and reach the front line, while the winning hero is there and can push the front further back/conquer towns could well be enough.
    Exactly. Right now, in most AoS, you get fat rewards of exp and gold for killing enemy heros, that many times people start worrying about pushing or defending their bases, and worry only about geting the enemy heros walking pots of treasure and exp.

    If all you get from killing an enemy hero is said hero geting out of your way for half a minute, then players will think twice before puting all their resources into killing other players, as it may be rewarding to kill the creeps and towers.

    Of course, this would mean that killing creeps sudenly becomes much more important, so creep gold and exp should also be kept in check.

    Most of the exp and gold should be gained from achieving hard strategic goals, like taking down towers and capturing pieces of terrain.

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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    ...huh. That's... weird.
    Might try addressing Blizzard about that. I'm sure they'd like to know about such bugs.
    Part of my issue is that I didn't think of taking say, a screenshot, or saving the replays.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)


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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by natni8 View Post
    Aye, that was one powerful split. Didn't know it was possible for that to happen in this fashion. Something new every day, I guess. >.>



    Also, to reiterate: I don't think I've ever had an AotZ game that was not pure agony. That map is horrid. Its concept is fine, its hero ideas are fine, but the execution is godawful due to its nonexistant balance. I seriously vote we don't touch that ever again (unless it gets updated), especially considering we have an infinitely better balanced and otherwise very similar map in DoE.
    Last edited by Winterwind; 2009-07-24 at 07:47 PM.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Aye, that was one powerful split. Didn't know it was possible for that to happen in this fashion. Something new every day, I guess. >.>



    Also, to reiterate: I don't think I've ever had an AotZ game that was not pure agony. That map is horrid. Its concept is fine, its hero ideas are fine, but the execution is godawful due to its nonexistant balance. I seriously vote we don't touch that ever again (unless it gets updated), especially considering we have an infinitely better balanced and otherwise very similar map in DoE.
    "Unless" meaning is. RD was doing an overhaul on AotZ, I belive.
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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    Aye, that was one powerful split. Didn't know it was possible for that to happen in this fashion. Something new every day, I guess. >.>



    Also, to reiterate: I don't think I've ever had an AotZ game that was not pure agony. That map is horrid. Its concept is fine, its hero ideas are fine, but the execution is godawful due to its nonexistant balance. I seriously vote we don't touch that ever again (unless it gets updated), especially considering we have an infinitely better balanced and otherwise very similar map in DoE.
    The fun part about that kind of split? If it's not a hostbot hosting it, everything that's custom will show up as pink and black boxes and I'll get a disconnect a few seconds in. If it's a hostbot, normally you can tell because nobody will be moving around, and such. Seemingly with maps like AotZ, it's difficult to notice as it gives heroes AI. >.<

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    Default Re: GitP WarCraft 3: The Frozen Throne group (thread II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Slaanesh View Post
    "Unless" meaning is. RD was doing an overhaul on AotZ, I belive.
    Well, let's hope he listens to what people tell him, then. The guy's lack of a sense for balance is practically an artform.

    Quote Originally Posted by natni8 View Post
    The fun part about that kind of split? If it's not a hostbot hosting it, everything that's custom will show up as pink and black boxes and I'll get a disconnect a few seconds in. If it's a hostbot, normally you can tell because nobody will be moving around, and such. Seemingly with maps like AotZ, it's difficult to notice as it gives heroes AI. >.<
    Heh, aye, that is amusing.

    EDIT: Oh yeah, right, and also, reminder, tomorrow is our next melee session. Hope to see you there.
    Last edited by Winterwind; 2009-07-25 at 06:31 AM.
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